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Painwheel MU Thread

Just played against a decent Eliza for the first time... Looks like it might be yet another bad matchup for pw. Once Eliza gets near pw its kinda dumb. Eliza will just iad random attacks all day long and get random crossups etc.


Pw could only hope for armor getting her through stuff, but seriously all i could really do at neutral besides jump away from Eliza was charge st.mp. All my j.mp and j.lp got beat easily from most ranges and distances and i cant fly away at all consistently cause Eliza's normals range is huge and pw doesnt fly back fast enough.

So my counters were air super, j.hp charge air super, and st.mp on the ground. After that i had nothing. Couldnt throw fireballs cause of boat, couldnt aerial poke cause of alias priority. All i really had in the matchup was my combos. But really... That was if i could get a hit but its hard getting a hit when you are outprioritized and somewhat outsped.

Generally the first way i feel about a matchup is how it goes. This was only 5 matches of 1v1 and i only played pw for 2 of the, and double for 2 and parasoul for 1 double and painwheel got smoked hard, parasoul got a perfect in the first round but the Eliza's connection dropped. All in all, parasoul wasnt super duper out prioritised and thats why i won with her so much more easily than with pw and double.
 
IsaVulpes said:
So how many armorbreakers does Eliza have that stop PW from just j.HPing all over the place?
Airthrow, any chain, most air normals xx airdash xx airnormals.

So count up all those variables.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't IAD normals and normal > ADC > normal a big reason that Filia is a tough MU for PW? My friend kinda spams IAD j.HP and it keeps me out of the air and randomly crosses me up as well. I thought armor was the answer, but Filia can do ADCs to stop those, too. I heard on here that s.MK is supposed to the answer, but I have yet to see beneficial results. Could s.MK possibly be a good answer for Eliza as well?
 
IsaVulpes said:
So how many armorbreakers does Eliza have that stop PW from just j.HPing all over the place?

Eliza to Sehkmet Reaction Air.QCF.LP,j.HP is pretty godly.

However, Eliza, as she exists now, is super-mega-extra free on wakeup.

Sehkmet is also in constant danger of Buer Thresher.

As Eliza rounds out it will probably look better for her. She has a lot of stuff PW hates. Great crossups, a meterless answer to armor, solid neutral. She'll be even better with an assist.

The matchup is going to be about who can lockdown who first.
 
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bubbaking said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't IAD normals and normal > ADC > normal a big reason that Filia is a tough MU for PW? My friend kinda spams IAD j.HP and it keeps me out of the air and randomly crosses me up as well. I thought armor was the answer, but Filia can do ADCs to stop those, too. I heard on here that s.MK is supposed to the answer, but I have yet to see beneficial results. Could s.MK possibly be a good answer for Eliza as well?


Wow i totally forgot about st.mk... Yeah that should definitely work. The problem with st.mk though is that its not really confirmable into a full combo nor does it give any real positional advantage on hit, plus it kinda sucks as an AA when assists are thrown into the mix. BUT it should give a reason for Eliza to do something besides just iad pressure all day.


I played against the Eliza player(s) again... And i was actually using hk buer as an AA. Yep, thats how predictable they were being with the iad pressure. And hk buer worked ok. But once again, they were solo and hk buer leads to nothing.


However i did find out what normals they were using to destroy me:

At range to get in it was dash jump j.mk xx j.mk or dash jump j.mk,j.hk. But if i stayed on the ground then they could dash jump j.mk wiff, xx airdash into falling j.hp. Once on top of me they would dash jump j.lk, delay, j.hp for a super ambiguous crossup or non crossup. Pushblocking her had very limited effect since she could just cancel her aerial moves into dash pressure on reaction. It certainly doesnt feel like a matchup that is even.


As far as filia goes, both these guys either main or sub filia and i have less problems dealing with her offense. The reason is because filia doesnt do dash jump> godlike airnormal> airdash godlike airnormal. Which gives Eliza a lot more range than filia. With filia i feel like i can zone her out a bit with fly. Against Eliza though that fucking j.mk just shuts painwheel down air to air at horribly far ranges.
 
Depending on range, s.mk can be confirmed using death lotus (if I'm getting the name wrong, I mean 6.hk x4) though I've never found it to be particularly useful raw. As for Filia IAD, I think s.mp is okay. It autocorrects, so well timed the advantage is PWs. That is a lot easier said than done though (stress this sentence). I am not sure how it would work out vs Eliza due to her range), but it is worth a shot.

Also, air throws? IAD can often times be predictable. Though high risk, an air throw can be high reward.
 
Spencer said:
Depending on range, s.mk can be confirmed using death lotus (if I'm getting the name wrong, I mean 6.hk x4) though I've never found it to be particularly useful raw. As for Filia IAD, I think s.mp is okay. It autocorrects, so well timed the advantage is PWs. That is a lot easier said than done though (stress this sentence). I am not sure how it would work out vs Eliza due to her range), but it is worth a shot.

Also, air throws? IAD can often times be predictable. Though high risk, an air throw can be high reward.


Airthrows worked somewhat. Spencer, you know how you say parasoul is a bad matchup and so is bella because they both have crazy priority attacks? Well imagine either character being able to airdash and do that... Only without having a great reversal. That is basically Eliza in a nutshell. Well its how my friends are playing her. Her long range priority is insane and she can force you to deal with her priority by using dash jump j.mk.

So flying around at "footsies distance" trying to make her wiff doesnt work well cause you have to be like over half screen away.

So basically flying isnt good and neither is staying on the ground. Its like a parasoul that can dash jump j.lp you, and cancel into j.hp, or if the j.lp wiffs she could just airdash cancel and fall with j.hp.


The matchup isnt impossible, it never will be with painwheels confirms and damage and resets. But pw has literally 0 control of what happens without hard reads.

And I'm not just talking out my ass. I played the same guys with my parasoul... Like a totally different story. I could beat them to the punch if i anticipated them well (cant do this with pw at all really unless they mess up)


With parasoul its because of the speed of her (parasouls) moves. I WAS getting my shit beat with her, but it happened alot less. With pw i had little to no recourse if they spaced any kind of well. Airthrows only worked when they messed up, most of my moves only worked when they messed up.

And by messing up i mean when they threw out a slow move expecting me to jump back or something. If they were trying to outprioritize me air to air, they won basically 100% and thats the problem cause they can just play the priority game all day long till pw is forced into a situation she is to slow to get out of. Then they go in with the slower moves and create the mixups. Its all rather flowchart tbqh.
 
Well, there are other MUs that are extremely difficult solo, right? You may just have to give up and put an assist or two on the team. If you ever get any space, needles could possibly force her to slow down and give you opportunities to get in. Also, as Kracka mentioned, with meter, you may be able to pull off some air reversals if they're IAD'ing predictably (her other supers could potentially serve the same purpose but they either have less reward or spend too much meter).

Question: If s.MK is so good against IAD pressure, why isn't s.HP an equally viable option, especially with its increased ease of confirmation and use in combos and the potential to stagger with full charge? Is the hitbox or frame data not comparable?
 
bubbaking said:
Well, there are other MUs that are extremely difficult solo, right? You may just have to give up and put an assist or two on the team. If you ever get any space, needles could possibly force her to slow down and give you opportunities to get in. Also, as Kracka mentioned, with meter, you may be able to pull off some air reversals if they're IAD'ing predictably (her other supers could potentially serve the same purpose but they either have less reward or spend too much meter).

Question: If s.MK is so good against IAD pressure, why isn't s.HP an equally viable option, especially with its increased ease of confirmation and use in combos and the potential to stagger with full charge? Is the hitbox or frame data not comparable?
Im talking about solo on solo. Which is different. I'm not a solo only player by any means. Im 99% teams based player and have a rather big assortment of teams i can play... Like basically most sg players that dont go solo.

The problem is that if i go an assist... There is nothing stopping Eliza from going an assist as well and then we are back to square one at best, or Eliza with an even bigger advantage at worst. Generally the character that controls neutral better will have an easier time calling assists at the prime spots and when they want to etc etc.


As far as st.hp versus st.mk they arent really comparable except in that both are charge armor moves.

It isnt easily seen but the st.mk hitbox is MASSIVE. All those little spiky bone effects on the end of her kick have hitboxes. And though its been awhile since i looked at the actual hurtboxes i think those bones on her leg might be weaponised normals, meaning that they are disjointed hitboxes (cant be hit cause there is no green vulnerable box) but dont quote me on that... Its been months/ years since i had a look at that hitbox. And, st.hp hitbox doesnt hit anywhere near as high as st.mk hitbox.



Also, the st.mk hitbox that is the good ridiculous priority hitbox is the FULLY OUTSTRETCHED one. Aka the very last hit. And its because of that, that its a hard confirm even into ratchet poppy. You will usually be spaced to far for ratchet poppy to hit. You can space close of course but then you take a huge hit on priority and risk getting combod for that foolishness. So my st.mk strat has always been to wiff it from far range and then cancel it into fly just as the last hit goes active, land fast, and do it again.... Basically putting up a wall so to speak for the opponent to deal with.


I mainly use this against solo filia... And when they start catching on they usually just start sweeping me. But before they figure it out, it does very well at stopping her iad advances... Its basically a bigass stop sign that says "no you cannot"
 
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As an answer to IAD stuff, assuming eliza isn't using a 3-hit normal to cross up, I use st.MP armour since it autocorrects if you absorb an attack. I use it vs valentine usually but it's hard to do vs filia. I have only played against skarmand's eliza and he blew me up pretty bad so I'm just theory crafting
 
How do you all open up a match vs Parasoul?

It seems like anything you do is a fairly large gamble that leads to .

Jump back into j.mp is beat by dash > air throw or the bouncing tearshot (mp). I think it is also beat by dash j.hp, but don't quote me.

Chicken block is beat by it too.

Anything charged from the start is beat by a jump forward.

I've had some luck with buers, but it is 50/50 if she jumps or goes forward.

Super jump is beat by a dash forward into c.lk (I think that's the move).
 
I don't know how to deal with Big Band. Feels like every place in the screen is dangerous. j.LK kills armor and he can do all sorts of stupid stuff on block. And he hits like a giant truck. Halp.
 
BB is a tough one. He has the tools to keep you out and all of his mashing sucks (and they are all mashing).

I like to do a slow approach watching for Giant Step. Under no circumstances outside of combo'ing should you really fly. Beat Extend and A-Train hurt. When you get in, my favorite reset is to "drop" the combo into a block as there is a huge percentage that they are mashing SSJ or Beat Extend.

I've also found that at max range (when they are charging Brass/ATrain) that a quick nail into flight cancel into a j.mp when you get close enough confirm a lot of the time (or at least let you get close to put some pressure on).
 
j.MP beats armor
 
IMO, I think you guys are just having trouble with RPS situations. BB can negate armor and he hits hard, but at the same time, he's more easily opened up by high-low mix-ups and it's super easy to convert off stray hits and combo him, especially if you use grounded loops. I don't really think he's very troublesome at all (going off my limited experience).

Spencer said:
How do you all open up a match vs Parasoul?

It seems like anything you do is a fairly large gamble that leads to .

Jump back into j.mp is beat by dash > air throw or the bouncing tearshot (mp). I think it is also beat by dash j.hp, but don't quote me.

Chicken block is beat by it too.

Anything charged from the start is beat by a jump forward.

I've had some luck with buers, but it is 50/50 if she jumps or goes forward.

Super jump is beat by a dash forward into c.lk (I think that's the move).
More RPS stuff:If you think she's going to jump forwards into anything, you can do your own air throw, or if you think she's going to go for an air throw, you can probably j.LP her into a reset (and she has no air reversal options). I believe her bouncing tearshot would lose to j.HP's armor and probably give you a hit into a combo. If Para dash j.HPs your j.MP, you don't really have to worry about anything, outside of the 1k damage, because it will allow you to tech immediately so she can't follow up. If anything, you could even use that to get in. :p However, her j.HP should also lose to PW's air throw and j.LP (and even if it doesn't, Para won't get any followups). I think chicken block doesn't actually lose to j.HP. In fact, I believe it's how you remove j.HP's frame advantage. If you chicken block right above the ground, that +9000 should disappear. There was a recent thread in this subforum, IIRC, where Mike Z and others detailed how to beat Para's j.HP, and I think chicken blocking was one of the ways. Things charged from the start might lose to jump forward, but they would beat dash forward. Also, are you sure charged s.MP wouldn't work on jump forward? Buers are risky because they can be blocked, and you don't really get much of a reward off them.

I like to also throw out f.HK at that intermediate range in case they dash forward (also catches jumps forward). Also, H nail can hit over napalm shots (better if you have an assist). c.HK can probably catch dashes forwards as well, although it would be hard to combo off of. I've actually never had a problem with jump back into j.MP or j.HP (probably because I also work with assists).

Pretty much everything can be beaten by something or else this MU might be bad for Para. Gotta make observations and see what choices the Para tends to make.

Edit: Also, don't forget that PW actually has a pretty fast dash, so I would think that dash grab is a viable option (as well as maybe dash into other things).
 
Chickenblock doesn't lose to j.hp. It loses to dash air throw. While I get that it is "RPS stuff" it all happens too fast to respond to, so you have to commit. And the stakes are high. Guess wrong and you eat a combo. Guess right and you knock her away at best or end up with her in your face at average. What I'm looking for (hoping for) is a safe option like PW has vs virtually everyone else in the cast (namely 7j.mp or super jump).

The only other cast member I think puts such pressure on the start is Squigs with a SBO at start, but even then if you successfully chickenblock it, you can continue to pushblock Squigs to keep her from closing in... so the right answer vs Squigly come round start is "always start 4/7".
 
Spencer said:
Chickenblock doesn't lose to j.hp. It loses to dash air throw. While I get that it is "RPS stuff" it all happens too fast to respond to, so you have to commit. And the stakes are high. Guess wrong and you eat a combo. Guess right and you knock her away at best or end up with her in your face at average. What I'm looking for (hoping for) is a safe option like PW has vs virtually everyone else in the cast (namely 7j.mp or super jump).

The only other cast member I think puts such pressure on the start is Squigs with a SBO at start, but even then if you successfully chickenblock it, you can continue to pushblock Squigs to keep her from closing in... so the right answer vs Squigly come round start is "always start 4/7".


Round start versus parasoul is rough but you do have a lot of options. The problem is that your chunks lose on a basis of 1 thing beats 1 of her things whereas 1 of her things beats like 3 or 4 of your things.


But its not that you dont have options.

Also... She cant dash and interrupt your super jump at round start... Thats just you mistiming it badly:

Jump startup is somewhere around 4 frames. Parasoul cr.lk is somewhere around 7-8 frames... Plus she has to dash... You can buffer super jump during the round start so that it comes out on frame 1.

But an option that you might want to try is to just sit there in crouch block for a bit to see what she does. Her only real counter to that is to dash in and throw. But if she dashes in and throws then you can start off the round in flight and destroy her with a fly cancel to go over the throw.

Now... This shit is easier said than done. Painwheels round start is atrocious... But you do have options.


And painwheels best round start is probably super jump back j.mp or super jump back nothing and then fly cancel just after your jump apex... You can now call assists without touching the ground.

This isnt awesome by any means, but it helps. Also peacocks that start rounds off with lk bomb can be beaten with mk buer start. But remember it isnt painwheels lack of options that makes her round start, suck, its the narrow applications that her moves have that makes them suck.
 
I'll see if I can't get a game in with a good Parasoul. I might be completely mistiming. A lot of this is guess work since I can't recreate it perfectly in training... so I'm just drawing big assumptions from my matches.

Do you know if Para's airthrow beats out super jump start (I am fairly sure super jump causes Val's dash > airthrow start to whiff)?
 
Everything is... Organic. So it depends. Para cant dash instant airthrow and beat super jump back j.mp iirc. But she CAN full dash, then jump and reach painwheel... But she has to commit to a full dash that will get blown up by pw assist, or other attacking options.

Also remember that as painwheel, you have a plethora of options for your jump moves:

Regular jump forward j.mp (beats some people over committing to try and beat pw super jump back)
Neutral jump j.mp (more priority than jump forward, but not much and loses to people jumping away)
Jump back j.mp (the most priority of the regular jump variants, but not as much as the super jump variants)

Then you have those 3 jumps as super jump... Which increases priority the more painwheel moves backwards, but painwheel cant call assists for while until she lands or cancels into flight during which she cant block. This is why super jump back j.mp is her best overall option. It requires a commitment from the opponent in order to beat it... Usually.

My round starts are just variants of j.mp with the occasional, stand there and wait, or stand there and wait and call assist, or buer, or the occasional armor charge plus assist...


None of this shit is terribly effective with the exception of super jump back j.mp... Which itself can be beaten on a read... Which is where the other variants generally start to come in.


At least thats how it works for me.
 
against bigband: don't fly in mk A-train range

superjump, j.mp

punish giant step at the end of blockstrings (L is -10 but s.lp > buer usually works)

and the most important thing:

UNFLY AND BAIT
in the worst case scenario he doesn't do anything and you land right in the area where big band can't do anything
 
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CaioLugon said:
and the most important thing:

UNFLY AND BAIT

it really amazes me how often painwheels don't do this in this matchup, or any other matchup where the midscreen is challenged a lot.

it's like walking into a store, waving around your PBGC garbage-disposal of a schoolgirl, and walking out with the cash register.
 
I've found no reason for unfly to be perfectly honest (except in very rare and specific cases).

Anything unfly can do a jump-in can do with less risk.

You can also technically cancel into fly into unfly to make any blockstring safe... or you just just j.lp and go for the fast overhead.

More than that, I'm not seeing anyone use it. Elda doesn't seem to be using it. Daemyx doesn't seem to be using it. I'm not using it. I don't think Elky is using it? Maybe Dime? Sounds like Hilary might be?

Maybe most of us are missing something, but I'm just not seeing unfly adding much to her kit.
 
I'm noticing that nobody in here is talking about (jump back) j.HP as an option to start a round. Is it completely inferior to j.MP? I like the armor, and if you let it loose, it's really easy to combo off of (and it crosses up rarely), but you can also just fly-cancel it to make yourself unpredictable.
 
@Spencer

I use unfly against the computer when looking for assist confirms, basically using it like an empty jump plus assist. And in that one lone case it's good. Every other situation to use it, simply fastfalling with an attack is better. The only real use unfly has is to make blocked confirms safer. And the occasional read on something like a bypass air to air or a lk air all air to air.


From what I've been able to tell the only super useful
Non redundant way to use it is with the call invulnerable assist strategy I outlined up top. But since forward unfly has not so
Much range, plus requires a forward ie... Can't block motion during it, it is somewhat hard to apply from the perfect ranges.

If unfly always moved forward then it would be very good and a staple use for painwheel imho. But needing to hold forward to get a forward blocking motion kind of kills much of its utility imho.
 
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j.HP as an option to start a round.

Wasn't that basically my whole vanilla painwheel gameplan?
 
Age said:
Wasn't that basically my whole vanilla painwheel gameplan?


You were using fakes mostly iirc. Also j.hp in vanilla had 2 hits of armor. Though it didnt matter much cause vanilla jhp armor didnt go into active frames and had 6 frame startup compared to its 2 frame armor startup now, and armor into active frames.
 
Spencer said:
Daemyx doesn't seem to be using it.

Dude, don't use me as an exemple of a good player, I suck at this game. I don't use unfly not because I think it isn't good, but because I always forget it exists.
 
Oh I didn't necessarily mean to use you as a good player. Just you as a PW player (we are a small bunch). Notice I'm on that list, and I'm average at best.

My point was that PW players don't use it. Non-PW players tend to tell us how good it is (though I'm guessing Caio at least occasionally plays PW).

I'm not saying it isn't good. I'm just saying it isn't the solution people think it is. It requires timing of the gods in many cases and more than not there is a better non-unfly solution.
 
Correct. You can make almost any blockstring safe by x fly > unfly
 
Spencer said:
Correct. You can make almost any blockstring safe by x fly > unfly



This is true, but misleading. What you get in "safety" you lose in giving the opponent the ability to attack you since you are relinquishing the ability to go offensive.

Not the worst thing... But since its pretty rare to get pws flight cancel punished... It makes little sense to always unfly cancel for a boogeyman that only comes once every 50 or so flight cancels.

Also, people quoting unfly as a saviour need to stop. You cannot cancel attacks with unfly which takes around 98% of unflies utility away. Its still good to have as an option if your opponent makes it there job to punish fly cancels and for the occasional bait... But other than that ive seen no great use for it.
 
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If anything, this is useful information for me. My (former) regular sparring partner tends to spam Filia's M Updo assist whenever I begin to pressure him so that the very moment there is even a slight hole in blockstun, Filia comes out and reversals me into a full combo. I am aware of the pattern, but I usually cannot stop it without resorting to armor or a super because I can't fly up, forward, or backward fast enough to avoid the wide hitbox, and attacking out of fly generally gets me hit. If unfly really allows me to block immediately, I can at least fly to bait the assist and then unfly to block and punish.

I know unfly isn't useful for much, but at least now, I think it will let me deal with a niche situation.
 
Throw

Edited to add: But in seriousness, let me know how it works out for you. I do want to find some practical applications for unfly.
 
I did start throwing more (one time I 0-to-death'd him with nothing but throws), but then he starts pushblocking and he can actually react to me going into fly. I definitely need to work on my mix-up game in general, though.

Well, I said (former) because he just graduated from my university and he has SG on 360 while I have it on PS3, so I'll be lucky if I ever get to play SG with him ever again. :( I'll see if I can try this idea elsewhere, though.
 
Advice on solo BB.

I'm comfortable with the neutral. It is a high pressure situation, but it is for BB. He's got to guess. If he guesses right, we eat a lot of damage. If he guesses wrong, he'll eat a lot of damage.

My question is once you've confirmed. Does anyone have any BB specific resets that work vs him? In my experience a decent BB can mash throw, Beat Extend, or SSJ. All of which will lead to a fair bit of damage. So if you reset and guess wrong, not only do you lose the advantage, you're looking at a lot of damage.

In training I tried to come up with something, but nothing except jump-back and block seemed to work for all 3. (And jump-back and block isn't much of a reset and isn't even guaranteed to punish lk.Extend or throw).

What I've tried: charged s.hp (loses to throw) and charged j.hp (loses to beat extend). I've thought about maybe an assist call plus jump-back... that seems promising aside from your assist eating a ton of damage. Thoughts?

It seems to me that the best bet might just be to finish the combo and make the damage stick. And on that note, does anyone have any BB specific combos that do a good bit of damage?
 
BB only, midscreen burst bait:

Whatever into having a j.lk tracked by ips and you need to be in stage 5... So once that happens you can do this:


Up/back j.lk

I think this is possible after fly j.lp or fly j.lk.

Basically if BB mashes anything (throw, ssj, assist, beat extend... Whatever) your jump back j.lk will make him burst and the burst will wiff.


Another way to think of this is as an instant overhead as BB is getting combod.


This only really works against BB though since his hitbox is so huge (jumpback j.lk wiffs against everyone else at midscreen)


So... The easiest setup is something like:


Cr.lk,cr.mk,st.hp xx fly df j.lk,cr.mk,st.hp xx lk buer xx fly df j.lp, "jump back j.lk instant overhead that combos" then cancel the j.lk into fly and wait to see the burst, then do a fly j.mk counterhit combo.


This is so good because after the fly j.lp, you have a bunch of reset/mixup options such as:
Throw.
Fly overhead.
Low.
Tick into j.hk fly crossup
Cr.lk,st.hk xx fly mixups

Etc etc
 
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Does charged j.HP lose to L Beat Extend?

Dime_x said:
Cr.lk,cr.mk,st.hp xx fly df j.lk,cr.mk,st.hp xx lk buer xx fly df j.lp, "jump back j.lk instant overhead that combos" then cancel the j.lk into fly and wait to see the burst, then do a fly j.mk counterhit combo.
Was there a specific reason you left L Buer out of the first string or did you just forget to put it in?

In reset situations like this, I often like to jump back and call Bella's H LnL assist because it tanks the hits (unless it's SSJ) and hits back pretty hard. In theory, if the opponent actually SSJ's (slowing down on the assist), couldn't PW retaliate with Thresher? Alternatively, PW could just unfly/block and punish.
 
@bubbaking

I dont use buer in the first string. There is no reason to unless you just like to, also it has a lot less range as a confirm than the fly df j.lk string ender.

Lol... Weve discussed this in detail in other threads. Those that lk the buer starter are unswayed by logic, and we are unswayed by lack of logic. In the end, if all of your confirms are point blank or near that, and you dont mind having to switch from buer on hit to fly on block, and fly on happy birthday confirm... Rather than fly for everything.. then it doesnt matter which starter you use since the difference in damage is pretty non existent.
 
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