• As part of the relaunch of Skullheart, ALL previous threads have been archived. You can find them at the bottom of the forum in the Archives (2021) section. The archives are locked, so please use the new forum sections to create new discussion threads.

Painwheel tricks and resets

Does that bait work midscreen?

Also, if you get them trained that you're going to pause > j.throw, you can often just dash forward (mid screen) and pick up a full combo with c.lk > c.mk >...

Also, my new hot hotness is (hg)c.hk xx fly > 3j.lk > stuff

You can cancel the charged c.hk before it ever comes out for a fast overhead. You can let it rip for a pretty damn fast low/high. If you hit with the low, the j.lk confirms. It works enough that I'm actually surprised when someone blocks it.

That said, it does have one fairly large weakness. It will lose to throws. So break them of any proclivity toward mashing hrow (Big Band!) before trying it out.
 
Spencer said:
Does that bait work midscreen?

I dont know if Clarence is doing something different, but that burst bait is based around the one that i put up on the last page.

The one that i put up works midscreen, but is character specific.
 
I came up with the burst bait that magic man uses here awhile back, but i thought it dubious because of the j.hk huge amount of hitstun, but magicman makes it look very tight. The throw option is only done once, at the end of the video the crossunder is really nice though and a great compliment to the mixup overall:


 
  • Like
Reactions: dormoxx, Wrexkun, fenster and 1 other person
Spencer said:
Also, my new hot hotness is (hg)c.hk xx fly > 3j.lk > stuff

You can cancel the charged c.hk before it ever comes out for a fast overhead. You can let it rip for a pretty damn fast low/high. If you hit with the low, the j.lk confirms. It works enough that I'm actually surprised when someone blocks it.

All overheads from ground fly are completely reactable (23 frames at best). Online makes it invisible because GGPO rolls you back into the middle of your flight animation.

Now, toss in an assist call that hits overhead or command grabs and you've got yourself a mixup.
 
Can stinger cancel make it viable? I'm still wondering if the opponent can recognize stinger cancel.
 
Triblue said:
Can stinger cancel make it viable? I'm still wondering if the opponent can recognize stinger cancel.

Maybe sorta? If they can react to the jitter that comes with the quick switch to the stinger animation, then yes. Otherwise, no.
 
Krackatoa said:
All overheads from ground fly are completely reactable (23 frames at best). Online makes it invisible because GGPO rolls you back into the middle of your flight animation.

Now, toss in an assist call that hits overhead or command grabs and you've got yourself a mixup.

It is reactable, but I'm comfortable with it since it is right on the cusp of reactable. I've messed around with it in training (setting an early cancel to one and the full thing to two), and 100% expecting one of those two things I average maybe 75% block at the high end. I imagine the rate drops a little bit more in a match where reflexes are already pushed. But yeah, it is definitely reactable. Though that isn't the end of it all since you can still go for a throw or a low after the high keeping them on their toes.

It would benefit a ton from a lock down as the amount of time they'll be frozen is immense (they can't jump while c.hk is charging), but I've gone back to my solo-Wheel days, so zero(ish) frame resets are sadly mostly out of reach.
 
Spencer said:
It is reactable, but I'm comfortable with it since it is right on the cusp of reactable. I've messed around with it in training (setting an early cancel to one and the full thing to two), and 100% expecting one of those two things I average maybe 75% block at the high end. I imagine the rate drops a little bit more in a match where reflexes are already pushed. But yeah, it is definitely reactable. Though that isn't the end of it all since you can still go for a throw or a low after the high keeping them on their toes.

It would benefit a ton from a lock down as the amount of time they'll be frozen is immense (they can't jump while c.hk is charging), but I've gone back to my solo-Wheel days, so zero(ish) frame resets are sadly mostly out of reach.

23 frames isn't "on the cusp" when playing offline. That's super potatoes slow.
 
As an example of how slow it is. Ibukis f+mk overhead in sf4 is 24 frames long and no one gets hit by that shit.

Granted that its got a bigger telegraph, but its still slow as hell and only tilted people get hit by it.
 
So out of curiosity, what's peak reaction time?

All I know is that the Millia Blocker has people averaging 20 frames per second.
 
Spencer said:
So out of curiosity, what's peak reaction time?

All I know is that the Millia Blocker has people averaging 20 frames per second.

Like 21 for me to consistently block something.
 
Spencer said:
So out of curiosity, what's peak reaction time?

All I know is that the Millia Blocker has people averaging 20 frames per second.


Peak is 11-14 frames for world class times. But those arent pure reactions, those are using twitch. In order to recognize and react its generally about 20 frames.
 
And is that with focus like "I know he's going to mix up here, now focus")? Or is that raw as in generally 20 frames any time any place.

Weird that this conversation is happening here and in Beta discussion at the same time.
 
Spencer said:
And is that with focus like "I know he's going to mix up here, now focus")? Or is that raw as in generally 20 frames any time any place.

Weird that this conversation is happening here and in Beta discussion at the same time.


That is generally expecting something. The frames for completely surprised first time ive ever seen this move are probably like... 300


Lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: ClarenceMage
Spencer said:
And is that with focus like "I know he's going to mix up here, now focus")? Or is that raw as in generally 20 frames any time any place.

Weird that this conversation is happening here and in Beta discussion at the same time.

When I'm paying any amount of attention. However, I don't believe this game possesses enough razzle dazzle to make such a slow overhead invisible.
 
Spencer said:
And is that with focus like "I know he's going to mix up here, now focus")?
Milia Blocker statistics of Veserius, the best US Blanka @SF4:
vpaEZ.png


Would probably be a bit lower if he actually played GuiltyGear and was used to reacting to those things.
Would be a notch higher if this was a game scenario where he has to worry about things other than reacting to high/low.

E: Generally it's "18-20f is the border of 'reliable reactability' with focus (17 and under are mostly reads); 20-23f will hit if the opponent doesn't really expect it to come" or something along these lines.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Krackatoa and Spencer
Krackatoa said:
All overheads from ground fly are completely reactable (23 frames at best)


How did you arrive at this number? My frame fighter calculation says that ground fly is 15 frames and j.lp or j.lk are 8 and 9 frame startup respectively. 15+10 is 25 frames, and 15 +9 is 24 frames...

Oh wait... Shit. I was thinking that they were slower at like 29 frames but that must be for fly into j.mk.


I think it was you that said that stinger fly was 10 frames and I'm inclined to believe it. That would make stinger overhead j.lk 20 frames.


Ive become a bit bummed out as of late with an inability to find really good setups for optimal starter resets (cr.lk or j.lp/lk/mk) most all of my resets are with j.hk or throw. And compound this with the fact that now that i finally figured out how to record the dummy doing nothing but walking backwards, i see that st.hp xx fly j.hk reset doesnt actually work against some characters that are standing and moving backwards. This is upsetting because painwheel doesnt have a really good go to threat for an optima starter. She has options sure, but most are setup by prodigious use of inoptimal starters.

My damage is suffering because of this, but it isnt just the damage... the raw fly overheads just dont work against reactive people. And with those characters also backing up out of the j.hk crossup I'm left with either super obvious reset points or highly gimmicky resets.

Which I'm not liking at all. So ive bit the bullet and started to develop more resets (on some serious esoteric shit), but I'm still finding no real reset mixups that have optimal starters.

The only optimal starter reset mixup that i know of that is decent is charged cr.hp. Which is beta only. Then there's cr.lk, but that is part of low/throw so the mixup is inoptimal en compound this with the fact that painwheel sucks at riding undizzy and we have high undizzy resets that are seemingly ineffective... But with people being able to block or walk out of her other resets makes doing lots of early resets kinda dubious.



So that the problem I'm dealing with right now. I guess maybe i should grab a cilia slide again or something , but the fukua player out here could block my low assist on reaction to seeing it come out so it lost major utility.

I seem stuck with a plethora of mediocre options.
 
Dime_x said:
As an example of how slow it is. Ibukis f+mk overhead in sf4 is 24 frames long and no one gets hit by that shit.
Remember that SG runs on Frameskip6; 23f in SG are what 20f would be in SF4.

It's mostly easy to react to flight overhead because PWs option are rather limited after c.MK
 
IsaVulpes said:
Remember that SG runs on Frameskip6; 23f in SG are what 20f would be in SF4.

It's mostly easy to react to flight overhead because PWs option are rather limited after c.MK


I do st.lp xx fly overhead, or st.lp, delay cr.lk,cr.mk there is no timing os to block this that i know of. And clarencemage blocks this shit like its his business. It is very reactable unfortunately if they have any inkling that its coming. St.lp into throw tends to get him, but he's started to use a pushblock/throw option select that can beat that as well.

I need to mixup my reset points better and take him by surprise, but thats when we come up with the gimmicky resets and not only gimmicky, but also low damage.


This is one of the huge reasons why i think filia and bella are really dumb. Filia gets the worlds easiest crossup/non crossup that doubles as an optimal starter to boot, bella gets comboable command grabs that because of their initial high damage, end up doing very good overall combo damage despite giving 50% scaling. And command grabs force reversal or upbacks so they are perfectly complimented by lows.

Pw doesnt have this go to unreactable high damage starter, so a lot of what clarencemage does is just downback and updo. I throw him and get shit damage and cant kill... And have to reset again... Probably with another throw, and this time a full undizzy throw which does peanuts damage... Its a really bad option select especially when throw combos give a full meter to the opponent on hit should you do the full combo.


I'm finding it to be a serious point of contention against characters with very good optimal starters like Eliza , filia and bella.
 
Yeah it does suck.

Given that you will rarely hit optimal jump-ins by themselves, yeah PWs damage is lower than at first glance. This of course distinguishes her from Bella who is likely to get her 8k+ no matter how she confirms or Eliza who is shaping up to be the same way. It also affects meter which is why PWs meter gain seems abysmal unless you are resetting with her every 5 hits.

Perhaps the upside is that we can confirm off of every damn thing. Every time I see a PW miss her 2x j.mk confirm I die a little inside because more than a giant combo, we have to be able to make sure that everything we do leads into a combo as I would say that is our primary advantage over other characters.

There are ways around the shitty scaling... namely reset, reset, reset. If you're sure they are being honest (and not mashing), I'll occasionally reset almost immediately (seriously, like 1 hit from our ground chain fast). And I throw all of the damn time which has a bunch of front loaded damage and meter. Actually, on that note, another mistake so many PWs make is throwing and going for a full combo, but I digress.

Some quick numbers to show just how hard scaling can hit us (hardly scientific):
BnB (w/o jump-in): 7616 and costs about 40% of a bar of meter
BnB (/w j.mk): 7792 and about the same meter gain as above
BnB (/w j.mp): 6896 and costs about 60% of a bar.

So if you are just doing combos ie no resets, then you are literally doing some of the lowest damage in the game... so definitely reset. That of course brings with it is own issues. A character like Bella gets two hits and you die, meanwhile we have to risk a mashed reversal probably about every 5-10 hits multiple times each round.

Also, digression: I've been fucking around with other characters. Is PWs tech execution heavy and/or very specific? I see and practice the shit that comes out of Fukuas, Parasouls, Double, Squigly and just marvel at how easy it is.
 
This is a little off topic, but what is your opinion on her armored burst baits?
 
Where the burst frames hit the armor and don't burst her?
 
Triblue said:
This is a little off topic, but what is your opinion on her armored burst baits?


They are good. Not first class optimal good, but just under that. They get rid of undizzy and thats the power in armor baits.
 
In regards to the recent beta changes in regards to being able to block mids and highs during prejump and the removal of proximity block on aerials cancelling prejump:

Being able to block mids and highs during prejump also applies to assists. If this is removed (With prox block change remaining), Painwheel j.HP Armor OS versus Up+Back will be available to use with things other than low-hitting assists, like LK.Bomber, Updo, etc. Provided you can get the assist to connect during prejump frames.

The anti Up+Back/Standblock/Reversal/Mash/RawTag Armor OS setup still works, but now you have to do it with proper timing (4 frames, or however long prejump lasts), instead of fudging it and having the assist land late after prejump. This makes it slightly harder to implement out of blocked j.MP xx Refly.
 
Krackatoa said:
Being able to block mids and highs during prejump also applies to assists. If this is removed (With prox block change remaining),
Blocking high with up-back won't be removed with the proximity block change staying, and it will probably not get removed even if the proximity block change is reverted.
The entire point is to make you not get hit out of up-back by mids+highs sometimes, it should either be all the time or never. And design (plus player experience, plus MvC2) greatly prefers never.
 
Mike_Z said:
Blocking high with up-back won't be removed with the proximity block change staying, and it will probably not get removed even if the proximity block change is reverted.
The entire point is to make you not get hit out of up-back by mids+highs sometimes, it should either be all the time or never. And design (plus player experience, plus MvC2) greatly prefers never.

That's fine by me, it would be too silly otherwise.

More than once I've Up+Backed against multi-hitting assists like Bomber, only to land immediately and get caught by the 2nd hit of the assist because I didn't revert to stand block immediately. The trauma has stuck with me to this day. For it to be gone is a blessing.

Projectiles and Projectile Assists are affected as well, I'll assume.

Regardless, I'll keep rocking my super awesome low assist, which still works just fine. I just have to time it consistently now.
 
I assume that painwheels unblockables are still unblockable.. So yeah.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Painwheel's Throw is indeed still not blockable.
I was talking about painwheels other unblockables.
 
Dime_x said:
I was talking about painwheels other unblockables.
How about you specify what you mean, then?

As far as I know, there is only one type of true unblockable left, and it's incredibly specific and won't really happen (Squigly cHP some-pixels-out-of-range + MGR assist, if opponent upbacks his hitbox shifts forward and he gets hit by the cHP).
 
It depends on what you would consider unblockable. If something is switch blockable by blocking high then low in a frame or 2 or blocking low then high in a frame or 2, but cant be blocked by holding either type of block... Do you consider that an unblockable?

If so, then painwheel has unblockables. If not then she just has very hard to blockables. In sf4 I'm pretty sure that most of the left right unblockables are 1 frame timing blockable but they are still considered unblockables.

The timing to block painwheels unblockable however is less strict, but still very hard, and also seems to have some variance.

Anyways, i already posted it on the page before this but its super simple to setup and i havent had anyone be able to block it. I dont use it because i dont like squigly and because it scales combos rather harshly... Like worse than throws:

With squigly cr.hp assist you do pw st.hp (hit) xx fly plus assist then 6j.hk

And thats all there is to it. Its super simple. As a caveat pw can mix it up with fly j.mk since the unblockable with j.hk is blockable by low block first and then transfer to high block, the j.mk hits before the squigly assist and has to be blocked high though.

But thats only really of use if people grind the block timing for the unblockable, in training mode.

This also works with filia cr.mk but is much more inconsistent and tends to combo from st.hp if you fly cancel plus assist to fast from the st.hp.
 
Mike_Z said:
You could improve that a good bit by calling the assist at the 2nd hit of s.HK instead of alongside the LP fireball.
yea was doing that and was going to extend the video but i broke my pad when i tried recording it lol
 
That is my favorite reset. Works with fiber, Squig 2hp, and Butchers (probably more).

It is not universal and will not work on fatties. Also, Fil and Fukua have a weird enough hitbox that it can be risky.

I do it a tiny bit different though. I call assist on second s.HK hit, and I use HK.buer for the cross under.

Credit where it is due, I petty much straight stole it from @Elda Taluda .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dolphin-Dude and Chuck N. Plazma
I'd have to try it, but I think if you were to do that and then xx fly > j.mk, you'll cross up on a few of the cast (Squigly and PW come to mind).

It looks like it anyway, but like I said I'll have to try it.
 
Spencer said:
I'd have to try it, but I think if you were to do that and then xx fly > j.mk, you'll cross up on a few of the cast (Squigly and PW come to mind).

It looks like it anyway, but like I said I'll have to try it.
just tried that on a few characters including those two and it doesn't, sadly :(
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spencer
Boo :(

The tick throw is still pretty freaking sweet.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back