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Painwheel tricks and resets

Domo said:
Found somethin kinda neat
This was discovered a few months back. PW has two flight entry animations. Flight from Special and Flight. Flight from Special is faster and lower to the ground. You can shave off some height by buffering Nail and immediately cancelling into flight. Useful for empty lows and tighter double flight overheads.
 
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pretty sure that's been known forever since you can do 3j.lk from s.hp xx fly, but can't from buer xx fly
 
What people need to know is that Tiger Knee fly 3lp is 18 frame overhead, without the need to cancel super quickly out of nails. I know for sure I can't get the fastest fly cancel from nails possible, so it isn't as worth it for me to go for those in pressure situations in game. Obviously you can only do the TK fly overhead stuff first before you go low or whatever but it's nice to know. I'm not trying to discredit the nail xx fly overheads though, they are VERY good for opening people up out of blockstrings.
 
WarpedEcho said:
What people need to know is that Tiger Knee fly 3lp is 18 frame overhead

That's not a thing, is it? :<

The data says it's a thing. But it doesn't take into account prejump and jumping height restriction. <_<
 
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something kind of neat that i found. doesnt work on big band, beowulf, double, parasoul, or robo. its pretty obvious but tends to be effective the first time.
 
You can also fall > fly before you land > j.mk again to catch people who've seen that off guard. Depending on the character and how late you fly you can either stay on the same side or end up on the other.
 
Remember, you don't want them falling on your head with j.LP, so sometimes j.MP(3),j.MK xx Refly works best.
 
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and for the sake of completeness, refly -> airthrow works as well
 
Ok so, this is pretty huge to me, pw has cross unders... Really easy crossunders, but she requires an assist to do the easiest ones and a couple of these crossovers/unders are complete bullshit:

The most bullshit one goes first:

Parasoul only:

1.Lk buer xx fly 9 j.lp,j.lk, st.mp xx fly 9j.mp the j.mp crosses up here
2.Lk buer xx fly 9 j.lp,j.lk, st.lp,st.mp xx fly 9j.mp does not crossup. The difference is 2 has a standing jab before the st.mp, which pushes parasoul out a bit and makes the j.mp not crossup.

I won't be explaining these next ones in detail so if you need clarification on any of them just ask. Also note that not all of these are universal. Most crossunders only work on lights but heavies have different mixups that can be done to them:

3. St.mp xx fly (3) call assist (you will fly under the opponent and the assist will cross them up)
4. St.mp xx fly 9j.mp (you will cross under and can cross them up with your ground attack when you land)
5. St.mp xx fly airthrow
6. St.mp xx fly 3j.lk (wiff) cr.lk low
7. St.mp xx fly j.hp(1),j.hk (the j.hp will be blocked midair, the j.hk will overhead. Can be a mixup for the airthrow (5) if the opponent mashes tech)
8. St.mp xx fly 3 (hold) j.hp, cr.lk (the j.hp will not come out and you will land into a cr.lk low... A direct mixup for 7)
9. St.mp xx fly 9j.mk (wiff) cr.lk ( a direct mixup for (2) this doesn't crossup but looks like it will)
10. St.mp xx delay cr.hp full charge (overhead that is hard to see because the flying screen obscures charging pw a bit)
11. St.mp xx delay cr.hk ( a direct mixup for 10)


So that's a lot of stuff for just st.mp.

Against light characters you can easily transition into:

j.mp (4) xx fly 3j.mk to crossup on the landing with an amount of options that is just as big as the resets from st.mp (including airthrow,burstbait, high/low, delay tech frame trap)
 
Really simple burst bait thing that works after you've used j.lp in a combo.

(c.LK, c.MK, s.HP, Buer, fly, 6j.LP), rising j.LP, charge j.HP. If they mash they get burst baited. With an assist you can go for a left right mix up if they don't mash.

Edit: apparently it also woks with j.lk, which is probably more practical, but they have to be in a standing position for both.
 
Getting a high/low off on an opponent can be a daunting task for pw against opponents that are looking for the high/low.

The next mixup serves to try and put some more ambiguity into painwheels high/low reset game. It is however a nonstandard option:

The setup:(hit) st.hp xx fly, 6j.mk

That is a safejump setup that works against 98% of the casts reversals. After that, pw can immediately land and then fly 9j.mp.


The j.mp if it is blocked on the ground, gives way to a very nice high/low mixup:

Cancel the first hit of j.mp into fastfall j.mk wiff, land into low confirm.
Or for the high, cancel the first hit of j.mp into fly, into an airnormals of your choice.

This setup works best with a lockdown assist. In the corner. But it is still viable midscreen with no lockdown assist, but is much more unsafe and able to be chicken blocked.
 
How does a set up fix the problem if the entire problem was "they're looking for the mix up." Is this set up to make the mix up less reactable?
 
It's a different setup than the normal setups. The mixup (high) starts from the air instead of from the ground. Air flight is 5 frames faster than ground flight. Air flight doesn't do a hop before the overhead.

Combine these aspects and it is much harder to block on reaction alone or timing alone versus something like cr.lk, fly overhead, or cr.lk, delay cr.lk

Or even

St.hp xx fly j.mk versus

St.hp xx fly immediate land, cr.lk


You also don't have to do the exact setup I described. You can just j.mp from basically anywhere while the opponent is grounded and get this mixup. The version I mentioned is so that you can do it (safely) behind the cover of a lockdown assist. This makes it more obvious that it is coming out (or not... If you don't do it) but the safety is the primary factor.

I wouldn't use the setup to much and would go for unsafe versions when I felt they are warranted. But as a good (different) high/low than the norm... It is a good alternative to give the opponent a different look. And best of all, unlike many of painwheels resets that become worse in the corner, this becomes alot better.
 
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Hey so I tried reading (by skimming) most of the thread and afaik this isn't a known thing but,


Overhead reset that's also a safejump it would probably work even on ssj but armor instead of invuln so it doesn't also not fenrir is the fastest super after ssj I think.

If it is a known thing then cool but if it wasn't then I'm glad I could share something neat.

so from 5HP you neutral fly and do jMK and only one active frame happens and you land if they use invuln moves and you block.

I also think if they pb the jMK you can 2LK to not get pushed back as far as you normally would. (although reacting to the pb is probably hard I dunno)

(of course the ranges you can do this vary but considering you can get closer after buer I figure it's fine.)
 
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Of course it is known

5HP xx fly j.MK is a 1 frame reset that safe jumps. It's been the core of PW's offense for a while now.

The thing to do is to create multiple routes out of that safe jump so you can use it often.

EDIT: reading over this, I think it sounded hostile when it really didn't need to and I didn't intend it.

Now that the game is basically final we should make resources for stuff like this that are obvious to those who have been doing it forever, that are very important but maybe not immediately obvious to others.
 
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I had always hoped for a front page "things you should know exist because they're cool."
 
Tomo009 said:
Of course it is known

5HP xx fly j.MK is a 1 frame reset that safe jumps. It's been the core of PW's offense for years now.
sweats

i didn't know it was safe vs invuln stuff
 
Domo said:
sweats

i didn't know it was safe vs invuln stuff

My Cilia Slide shit now looks like:

s.HP xx Fly w/ Assist Macro > j.MK

or

s.HP + Precisely Timed Assist Call xx Fly > Charge j.HP

Both blow up armor and eat reversals clean. One hits high first, one hits low first. The low one catches Up+Back when timed right.
 
@Stuff

It is known. Has been for awhile. Has been written about extensively by me, it's even in post #292 of this very page.

CM was the first to find it and tell me about it afaik. He may have told tomo as well or perhaps it was tomo that found it. Cm loves to use it mixed up with painwheels hard to blockable. I love to use it while calling an assist so I can get gravy mixups off.

There's ALOT more in this thread as well...
 
LaowPing said:
Really simple burst bait thing that works after you've used j.lp in a combo.

(c.LK, c.MK, s.HP, Buer, fly, 6j.LP), rising j.LP, charge j.HP. If they mash they get burst baited. With an assist you can go for a left right mix up if they don't mash.

Edit: apparently it also woks with j.lk, which is probably more practical, but they have to be in a standing position for both.


This can be made better via an option select that cm found for launchers, but no longer works because of the upback change. I then took his first premise and changed it into a different os for pw that works amazingly with tags that you can combo off from midscreen:



Have your j.lk or j.lp watched in stage 5 then:

Lk buer xx fly 3j.lp or 3j.lk that causes IPS proc. then hold upback and tag.


If the opponent was mashing, then they will burst and Painwheel won't be able to jump during the bursts startup. This will cause pw to tag instead and the tag is invincible and will blow through the burst. If they didn't mash then pw will just do an air normal based on whichever tag you used.


This gets her fatty counterhit combos as an OS and is very easy to time. It's weakness is it only really works against serious mashing. But I've gotten this off in multiple matches, it's worth the 3 minutes of time it takes to learn it.


Sorry for double post and I've posted this tech as well as lots of other stuff in this thread previously :)
 
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Krackatoa said:
My Cilia Slide shit now looks like:

s.HP xx Fly w/ Assist Macro > j.MK

or

s.HP + Precisely Timed Assist Call xx Fly > Charge j.HP

Both blow up armor and eat reversals clean. One hits high first, one hits low first. The low one catches Up+Back when timed right.
mmmmm you're making me want to try putting double on my team again lol
 
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Yeah he's unknowingly been talking me into it over Steam. It sounds gross.
 
Spencer said:
Yeah he's unknowingly been talking me into it over Steam. It sounds gross.

Unknowingly talking to you on Steam? Like what, does he sleeptalk but instead of talking gibberish IRL he types out sick PW setups to people on his computer? :P
 
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I've been looking for a third character to put on my team for a horizontal assist. Right now i'm torn between cilia slide and robo's H beam assist D:::
 
fenster said:
Unknowingly talking to you on Steam? Like what, does he sleeptalk but instead of talking gibberish IRL he types out sick PW setups to people on his computer? :P

"Unknowingly talking me into it" != "Unknowingly talking to me"

But yeah, Krack's been forthcoming with tech which is why I'm interested in Cilia slide. I just asked him one day why he used it instead of other assists, and it piqued my interest.

Domo said:
robo's H beam assist D:::

If you say this 3 times while looking into a mirror, you'll summon the Aussies. They'll tell you exactly why it is the best.
 
Domo said:
I've been looking for a third character to put on my team for a horizontal assist. Right now i'm torn between cilia slide and robo's H beam assist D:::
Have you excepted H Brass as your Lord and Savior?
 
fenster said:
Unknowingly talking to you on Steam? Like what, does he sleeptalk but instead of talking gibberish IRL he types out sick PW setups to people on his computer? :P
It's a big problem. I'm very sensitive about it. :^(
 
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Discovered this last night, really funky looking incoming that's probably nothing more than a gimmick (There's probably an easy way to negate it). Still, tested it a bit in QM, and managed to hit with it every single time. All it involves is using S.HK as soon as the character comes in, and depending on the character or the timing/spacing of HK, you can cross or fake cross them up. If they block the HK, which they should, then simply flight cancel and call your assist for mixup shenanigans and whatnot.
 
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Domo said:
thats pretty nice! i've been doing the same with s.MP but this looks way more ambiguous
My sincerest thanks! Still working out the kinks on it, and yeah, S.MP is pretty damn good too.
 
Creepy Cole said:
5HK 5HK 5HK 5HK 5HK
448.jpg
 
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Sneaky overhead that also doubles as a safe jump against certain reversals:

Cr.lk,cr.mk xx fly 3j.lk. Uncombos by one frame just like st.hp xx fly j.mk.


very sneaky reset in general against people that use timing blocks (I hit everyone with this all day):

St.hp xx fly (3) slight wait 5 j.lk

An awesome slowverhead that punishes people that use timing blocks that would beat fly (land) cr.lk

Also, charging sweep and canceling into overhead is kinda evil against certain people... Basically those that can see it easily, or those that try to throw the sweep.

Very easy to setup crossup, but takes a slight amount of practice and isn't universal:

Lk buer xx fly 9j.lp,j.lk, cr.mp (1) st.hk (2) xx m stinger. Old reset. But this is a great and easy way to setup the crossup because in order for the crossup to work the st.hk needs to be point blank and the first hit of cr.mp causes no pushback.

St.hk resets in general need to be revisited I think... There's ALOT of unknown technology in the setup on top of the myriad options that are already known. I think with some execution and dedication this reset point can be as good as sages Fukua m shadow reset point.

Pw can do a high crossup, an airthrow, a high non crossup, a regular ground throw, a low non crossup, and a low crossup all off of this reset point without assists. With assists she can do even more and can vary the setup depending on how many hits of jhk she uses. An evil one right now is st.hk (3) call beat extend L, jump cancel crossunder the opponent.

Etc etc.

My pw resets have become to predictably throw based and to predictably safe jump based as of late so I'm revisiting all the crossup stuff that I know of.

Last great thing about the st.hk reset is that it's variants all lead to on scaled starters. And pw really needs non scaled starter resets (jhk, jmp, throw, airthrow, and assists are all scaled starters and pws most prolific reset tools in general so hk resets may become the staple against the characters that the crossup works against) I will update this or the next post with who gets crossed up and who can be airthrown from st.hk (2)

-edit

The crossup DOESNT work on:

Robo and MF, beo, double, para

Only works on 1 p side against Bella and Eliza.

Everyone else can be crossed up and can also be airthrown so it's extremely potent against them. Also crosses up reversal inputs which is nice.
 
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There's also a side swap she can do on some characters where you do S.hk, hold forward jump, j.lk. It works on peacock for sure but not sure who else. The j.lk has a hit box behind it which makes the cross up work.
 
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Ok most bullshit reset I think I've ever found with pw. It's completely universal, has a burst bait attached, has an airthrow attached, has a crossup attached and of course a low/throw. This is all from the same EXACT setup. The catch is that you need M shadow assist. However I don't think that's a catch as besides BE L, m shadow assist seems to be the best assist I've ever found for pw... Anyways the setup:

St.hp plus m shadow assist, xx fly j.lp

Pw will hit the opponent character right before m shadow hits them and m shadow will launch them while pw is on the ground. She can dash crossup, or superjump back jlp burst bait, or airthrow.


Bonus m shadow shizzle:

St.hp plus m shadow assist xx fly j.mk is an unpushblockable safejump and sets up j.lp fuzzy guards, or land into cr.lk high.


Neutral m stinger plus m shadow assist covers a huge amount of space and sets up pw to go in under the cover of shadow or m stinger or both. The pattern can be repeated ad infinitum:

M stinger plus assist fly cancel, m stinger, m stinger plus assist etc etc



Air thresher plus m shadow is safe on block and even wiff if the shadow connects. It's so safe that it looks to be near plus on block. Isnt safe to pbgc of course but nothing is and there might be a small gap between the end of thresher and when the m shadow connects.



There is also a shit load of BB synergy with m shadow assist as well and lots of pw play using BB rightly so But this is the pw thread so I won't mention it here.
 
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mmmhhh i held my breath long enough, wait for 5s mark, this should have been obvious to everyone but maybe it's not

gold burst mixups
slight lift off the ground
armor moves to enter gold burst (painwheels do this)
deceptively low height during dash

put things togetherrr

 
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I don't understand that at all... But it looks cool :)
 
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