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Personal Analysis of Solo, Duo and Trio

Spencer said:
Bella's thinking... two left? That's like 6 or 7 hits!
But Zid's bella is more like... Two left? That's like 1 or 2 more level 3s!
 
Zidiane said:
Some people I face, like WingZero, will actually choose to also pick solo rather than come at me as a team.
Got to agree. There are some matchups/players I'd go solo against rather than duo.

Less to worry about on my end so I could focus more on other things happening.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
I understand that these are simply ideas but... let's not try for ideas that'll introduce a big change in system mechanics.

I agree. In my own way it is just something I enjoy thinking about and discussing. It is an interesting question, "how would [something] change the game?"

That said, I think blufang said it pretty astutely. Right now solo is a little bit weaker (or at least that is the perception), and so considerations of how to buff solo aren't completely unfair.

To top it off, the general response to the "solo is weaker" argument is pretty much summed up by view (learn to team or gtfo) which actually affirms the solos are weak argument, and your leaving for a team makes me sad because it is very realistic that the top 8 at major tournies will have zero solo players.

Of course, Mike's come out and said if there has to be an imbalance, he'd rather err on the side of teams since they use more of the games mechanics, but doesn't stop those of us who choose to play solo from getting a tad frustrated when for example, your life advantage is trumped by regenerating red health.
 
DDB said:
But Zid's bella is more like... Two left? That's like 1 or 2 more level 3s!
I always get the happy birthday, so it's one lvl 3. It's always someones birthday somewhere, that's my motto.
Spencer said:
Of course, Mike's come out and said if there has to be an imbalance, he'd rather err on the side of teams since they use more of the games mechanics, but doesn't stop those of us who choose to play solo from getting a tad frustrated when for example, your life advantage is trumped by regenerating red health.
Solo health really is trumped. Even more so when considering the damage left on the table when your combo could have dealt more damage but they died, which never happens against a solo, and the fact that the net healths for trios and solos is so close.
 
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Zidiane said:
I always get the happy birthday, so it's one lvl 3. It's always someones birthday somewhere, that's my motto.

Solo health really is trumped. Even more so when considering the damage left on the table when your combo could have dealt more damage but they died, which never happens against a solo, and the fact that the net healths for trios and solos is so close.

And I think teams can out damage solo using DHC, but I don't want to say that with 100% certainty. If that is the case though, then that means that solo's health and damage advantage is potentially trumped by a team with none of the assist benefits.
 
Spencer said:
To top it off, the general response to the "solo is weaker" argument is pretty much summed up by view (learn to team or gtfo) which actually affirms the solos are weak argument, and your leaving for a team makes me sad because it is very realistic that the top 8 at major tournies will have zero solo players.
Just to get this out there, the only reason I went solo Fortune at EVO is because I was stuck on Xbox and didn't have enough time to get my Filia ready since she was so different in SDE. The only reason I got so far as a solo player is because everyone had little to no real Fortune matchup experience so aside from when I got locked down in a corner, I could just do whatever I wanted after baiting assist calls. I never played solo because I liked it.

Anyways it's still really really dangerous to buff solos just because they can punish single mistakes so well (see: Red Savarin). Yes, they are weaker than teams, but (some) solos can still compete. You just have to work harder and take advantage of your single character health and damage. It's just a high risk/high reward playstyle with more (or less) opportunities to take risks.
 
Spencer said:
And I think teams can out damage solo using DHC, but I don't want to say that with 100% certainty. If that is the case though, then that means that solo's health and damage advantage is potentially trumped by a team with none of the assist benefits.
Yeah. Solos don't actually do more (net) damage and have more (net) health. C'est la vie or something I guess.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Anyways it's still really really dangerous to buff solos just because they can punish single mistakes so well (see: Red Savarin). Yes, they are weaker than teams, but (some) solos can still compete. You just have to work harder and take advantage of your single character health and damage. It's just a high risk/high reward playstyle with more (or less) opportunities to take risks.

I do agree 100%. I imagine they are quite scary to throw any buffs at because they have potential to snowball. This is why I think a direct health/damage buff would be a terrible idea.

There are indirect ways to buff solo though. The assist lockout nerf is a great example of a smart team nerf. I would absolutely love to see a nerf to invulnerable assists, though I have a feeling this is a pipe dream. One could nerf DHC or buff snaps, neither of which might be a good idea, but I'm just mentioning it as ways to buff solos without directly affecting their power.

And I was just mentioning your solo play at EVO because you are propped up as the one viable solo player (quite the burden to bear, eh?). I believe at one point Mike or the announcer verbatim said "and people say solo is not viable" or something to that affect after you won.
 
Zidiane said:
Filia and Double are the only ones that can really mash and beat the pressure you try and go for (and even then, you can block and punish Filia, and I know cerebella has solo setups on her to beat her out of it that are safe if she doesn't mash that keep up pressure). Against every other character, jump at them as if you are applying pressure, then double jump. Every one of their supers will flounder offering you a full punish, and if they don't you can pressure with an air attack (as solo cerebella, I use j.hk).
Double?!?! She's.... not one of the four I was considering. What is she mashing, given that she has no air supers?!?!

Going by the health charts, solos are better than teams if you never call assist. Though I guess DHCs make a difference. That's also not taking into account matchups, or that solos have a slightly greater chance of killing the team in 3 hits than the team does. Additionally, the majority of characters in the game are only as good as they are because of their assist or assists they give. You pick a team of peacock/squigly/valentine without using assists and you won't have a good time against a solo Fortune or Bella, who do much better on their own. (This is all added to my earlier mentions of incoming mixups)
When normalized for damage output, solos have 2.5% more health than a 3. In numbers, they effectively have 715 more health, after normalizing for damage output.

One DHC is already about that much damage (probably more?). Now, factor this in: my point character has a good chunk of red health. I hit you, combo into super, DHC. I'm getting the life difference between solo vs. team just on that extra super. But, guess what else I'm getting? I'm getting a big chunk of red health back. In other words, before any other advantage of teams is factored in, even before assists, teams have the advantage (and yes, assists may be the #1 benefit, but even without them, they beat solos).

Maybe we should play sometime. I've been told that I'm hard to fight on that front.
I'll add you on Steam; send me a message sometime if you see me in game. I'm not going to claim I'll have any chance of taking a single game from you (as my title on the left indicates, I'm bad at this game), but I'm still willing to face you.

(Also, we have faced in QM before.)

Actually, do you have a link to your Steam profile? It's not coming up for me in a search.

EDIT: NVM, Google found you. Steam friend request sent.
 
Cynical said:
Double?!?! She's.... not one of the four I was considering. What is she mashing, given that she has no air supers?!?!
Megalith Array, her lvl 5. That and Gregor are the only mashed supers that beat most forms of assist-less pressure (Gregor mostly just gets out free). Like I said, for Val/Painwheel/Fortune, you can Double jump over them and pressure them from above. Though... I forgot, Big Band has an air super, doesn't he? So I guess three characters can mash air super on incoming and beat most forms of pressure.
 
Eh, fighting games are always going to have an optimal way to play. At this time, there's no point in buffing up solos to put them on the level of teams since solos do not have access to the full set of mechanics and will never be as good as teams because of it. This is something that will never change, and it's a bad move to nerf teams when team vs team play is balanced already.

Solo players need to accept that they are using the "low tier" option in SG and live with it. You have some advantages over teams (life, damage output per conversion), a chance to reversal out of pressure in PBGC, absolute guard. Accept this or pick up a second character.
 
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View619 said:
Eh, fighting games are always going to have an optimal way to play. At this time, there's no point in buffing up solos to put them on the level of teams since solos do not have access to the full set of mechanics and will never be as good as teams because of it. This is something that will never change, and it's a bad move to nerf teams when team vs team play is balanced already.

Solo players need to accept that they are using the "low tier" option in SG and live with it. You have some advantages over teams (life, damage output per conversion), a chance to reversal out of pressure in PBGC, absolute guard. Accept this or pick up a second character.

To some extent, maybe true. There is always closing the gap in lieu of perfect balance. That said, I'm not entirely convinced that it is not balance-able based on solo vs team. I don't think we are advocating for a 5-5 in every solo vs team MU, but it would be nice if they were say 4-6 on average, but I don't think most of us would even agree that they are that close.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Just to get this out there, the only reason I went solo Fortune at EVO is because I was stuck on Xbox and didn't have enough time to get my Filia ready since she was so different in SDE. The only reason I got so far as a solo player is because everyone had little to no real Fortune matchup experience so aside from when I got locked down in a corner, I could just do whatever I wanted after baiting assist calls. I never played solo because I liked it.

You've just killed the hopes of solo players everywhere:( People that saw you at EVO, and said "Me too". I can, despite being a solo player, compete in this game. However in your modesty you have disputed that, saying matchup experience was a monstrous factor. I didn't start this game til it came on steam, but I watched the EVO finals of Skullgirls. I saw all these teams, tons of filias and doubles, then there was this solo Fortune somehow competing. Yeah and Mike Z did say how this proved the viability of solo characters and all that. Without touching the game it put into my head that this game could amazingly be balanced despite the freedom of going solo, duo, or trio (there were a few duos there too). You could go with what you were comfortable with.

Now I always planned on using a 3 member team regardless, just waiting for Big Band so the torture of solo ends (lol it's been fun really, but getting to play a duo in the Beta is so much more so). Eliza will make 3, so by the year's end I should be a threesome kind of a guy. However while perfect balance is never possible it should always be something to strive for. Or at the least, be worthy of discussion. Solos will always be disadvantaged due to less options, but closing the gap could make people less pressured to be forced to pick up a 2nd and/or 3rd character just to be tournament viable. We have endless beta, so running tests and experiments are very possible.
 
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blufang said:
You've just killed the hopes of solo players everywhere:( People that saw you at EVO, and said "Me too". I can, despite being a solo player, compete in this game. However in your modesty you have disputed that, saying matchup experience was a monstrous factor.
I got 13th at that thing without any of that noise. And I have it on good authority that I'll do better this year. So maybe ya wanna save yer "ya killed mah hopes" for a little bit longer, huh?
View619 said:
At this time, there's no point in buffing up solos to put them on the level of teams since solos do not have access to the full set of mechanics and will never be as good as teams because of it. This is something that will never change, and it's a bad move to nerf teams when team vs team play is balanced already.
I still wanna argue that the point of picking a solo character is the increased damage and health. But, and I know that worldjem's chart seems not so up to date (iirc (which I probably don't) solo is are currently 210/160), it doesn't seem like that big a difference. The gap between solo and trio net health should at least be 3k. I kinda would like Duos to get a stat buff too, they seem not as durable as they should be to me.
 
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@Zidiane

But you're a ... ugh... Bella player.

Seriously though, mind if I add you? I need to start playing more.

And yeah as much as I'm arguing for a solo buff, I think duos could definitely use a buff too.
 
Zidiane said:
I got 13th at that thing without any of that noise. And I have it on good authority that I'll do better this year. So maybe ya wanna save yer "ya killed mah hopes" for a little bit longer, huh?

I meant no disrespect, I only watched a little of the stream before top 8. Remember I didn't even have or play the game before August when it was released on Steam. I think I saw Khaos randomly once, I didn't get a chance to catch you. That's super impressive though, top 16 at EVO with solo Bella.
 
The reason why zid and khaos and to a lesser extent, filia players can actually play solo, is because of a combination of factors... The biggest one being having a meterless reversal. Filias solo play has been drastically nerfed now that updo>gregor has been nerfed to not be safe on block anymore! and the same thing has happened to fortune with her no longer having what amounted to a safe on block reversal... Hence you dont see to many of them as solo anymore really making waves.

Bella is a different case. Bella has an xfactor like safe reversal in that after she gets her ass beaten she still has that yolo safe on block team killing or assist killing lvl3 to threaten people with and she also has a good meterless reversal in headbutt, and she has a great metered reversal in mash dynamo. So with all these things, you want to mix bella up in the air, but half that mixup is airthrows, which do piss poor damage as a trio versus a solo and you really dont want to reset bella on the ground since mash dynamo against a team is generally medium risk with a read and high reward.


The other thing that solos need to compete is good unassisted mixup. Filia, fortune and bella all have great mixup on there own.


After that you generally need non linear movement options... Bella having both double jump and glide and run gives her this.

So imho its more about what your character brings to the table as a solo, than it is hard to play as one. Simply put if you use bella/fortune/filia as solos you will have an easier time than if you try to use someone like val (good on ya, shin) val has good mixup with throw/low and crossup, and she has top tier mobility, its her lack of reversals and small damage (comparatively) that keep her solo as dubious.

Funnily enough, peacock has all these things save for 1 and that 1 thing makes her not the greatest solo... Peacock doesnt have particularly great unassisted mixup. If she did she would be the best solo in the game flat out.
 
yo @Zidiane you should play bella/squigs. fullscreen level 3s using centerstage assist. the ground pound part has a surprisingly big hitbox.
 
blufang said:
I meant no disrespect, I only watched a little of the stream before top 8. Remember I didn't even have or play the game before August when it was released on Steam. I think I saw Khaos randomly once, I didn't get a chance to catch you. That's super impressive though, top 16 at EVO with solo Bella.
I was just kidding, there's no way your comment can be interpreted as any form of disrespect or anything :p
Dime_x said:
good meterless reversal in headbutt

Funnily enough, peacock has all these things save for 1 and that 1 thing makes her not the greatest solo... Peacock doesnt have particularly great unassisted mixup. If she did she would be the best solo in the game flat out.
Well, actually, Headbutt is the worst when it comes to reversals. Ignoring the fact that it's really unsafe and can't be super cancelled, it doesn't let you convert into anything at all (unless you both are right in the corner).

I thought the one thing Peacock didn't have was a good reversal?
Evilweevle said:
yo @Zidiane you should play bella/squigs. fullscreen level 3s using centerstage assist. the ground pound part has a surprisingly big hitbox.
im sorry everyone but i will no longer be playing solo starting today #kappa
 
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@Zidiane
If you think headbutt is a bad reversal, you need to play more characters. Its one of the better reversals in the game. It isnt foolproof by any means, but its pretty good. Safe on block reversals are for the most part a thing of the past save for bellas lvl3 and trio and duo dhc into safe supers. So saying that bellas headbutt is unsafe on block is a detractor doesnt fit since there are like no safe on block reversals anymore. (Parasoul pillar xx bike being the closest one meter safe on block reversal there is, followed very far behind by lk bomber xx cats, lk bomber doesnt have startup invincibility and cats is 2 meters).


Peacock has that goddamned sword which is one of the best pbgc reversals in the game bar none, and is actually a decent AA now as well.

Not safe on block, but at max range it can be very hard to punish, but like i said, it isnt a moves safety that makes a good reversal... Its whether the move has massive priority to beat out attacks.


For instance headbutt isnt a perfect it gets beaten by sweeps for 1, but in that case, you got out of a bad situation for only the low price of sweep damage and the ability to tech roll to safety... A lot better than guessing wrong on a mixup and taking 5k guaranteed into a highly ambiguous reset mixup.


A terrible reversal would be like, devilhorns, or painwheels deathcrawl. Both are hard to hit with and generally get the reversal person killed. Though deathcrawl is an awesome awesome pbgc.
 
Dime_x said:
If you think headbutt is a bad reversal, you need to play more characters.
No, really, headbutt is the worst. Even if the opponent gets hit, you get nothing off of it, it cannot be converted from if you both don't land in the corner. Every other reversal can also be cancelled into a safe DHC on block, and every other reversal, if it wasn't a super, can at least be cancelled into super for some extra damage on hit if you can't convert meterless. It literally has the least options out of every reversal in the game. The only one that's probably worse is Squigly's DP, but that one I think you can convert off of if you land it. Devil Horns is a better reversal. Yeah I said it. At least you can pull a tricky Devil Horns cancelled into showstopper if they stayed on the ground, and if you connect you get an easy 8-9k.

Peacock has that goddamned sword which is one of the best pbgc reversals in the game bar none, and is actually a decent AA now as well.
The sword is not great. As a PBGC it's good, but it's not a great reversal. Or maybe it is. @mcpeanuts is mp bang a good reversal? Doesn't it get beat by instant overheads and neutral jumps and stuff?
 
Zidiane said:
The sword is not great. As a PBGC it's good, but it's not a great reversal. Or maybe it is. @mcpeanuts is mp bang a good reversal? Doesn't it get beat by instant overheads and neutral jumps and stuff?

It is vs PW. Our jump in can be a tad predictable if we get lazy, and I've recently started running into Peacocks that are able to punish it.
 
Spencer said:
It is vs PW. Our jump in can be a tad predictable if we get lazy, and I've recently started running into Peacocks that are able to punish it.
Oh really? That's interesting. Being predictable gets you punished no matter what in this game, though, so I'm not sure if that's a "Peacock has a legit reversal" point.
 
@Zidiane, you can convert off a regular DP into MKHK SBO, or Charged into OTG. If you convert w/ SBO after Charged DP, you can actually regain charge AND OTG if you time it right.
 
It sucks as a reversal, no lie. I actually prefer it that way, only because Stance inv startup would be broken; she'd be able to LV1 Stancel through normals in neutral.
 
RetroStation said:
It sucks as a reversal, no lie. I actually prefer it that way, only because Stance inv startup would be broken; she'd be able to LV1 Stancel through normals in neutral.

The experiment written in Mike Z's to-do list is you can't stancel the DP for the first 30 frames. So you have to commit to the DP or sit there holding it until you can eventually get out. Regular QCF stancels won't get invincibility.
 
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MP Bang sucks as a reversal, IAD attacks beat it and it loses to grabs. It seems like a good pbgc reversal because everybody ignores it since "hey, peacock is blocking now" and they go nuts, but it's pretty awful. If Peacock can get a Shadow and some form of George on the opponent, her mix-up is fine. Grab that gives her un-techable knockdown, projectiles that you have to block, fast overhead with IAD j.lk. Her only problem up-close is lack of a good fast low, but that's it really.

Battle Butt is easily Bella's best meter-less reversal, and a pretty good one overall. Three hits of armour, good range and hit-box. Sure you can't convert off of it, but a reversal doesn't need combo conversions in order to be good. I am convinced that Devil Horn's only purposes are burst baits, pbgc cancels into US and AA (it's really good AA, actually).
 
@View619

I don't think that's entirely fair. MP Bang might suck as a reversal when it becomes predictable, but it is a nice addition to any repertoire.

If you aren't all that fond of it though, you should mail it to PW. She'd be glad to take it off of your hands.
 
Spencer said:
@View619

I don't think that's entirely fair. MP Bang might suck as a reversal when it becomes predictable, but it is a nice addition to any repertoire.

If you aren't all that fond of it though, you should mail it to PW. She'd be glad to take it off of your hands.

Nah, it has a shitty vertical hit-box and loses to grabs so you pretty much have to guess twice before you use it (will they attack? is it going to be a hit or grab?). Trust me, being predictable has nothing to do with it, it's just weak overall.

I would willingly trade that to PW if I got her armour, which people seem to ignore for some reason; fast armour charge (i.e. sweep) into Buer actually isn't bad, and then there's armoured jab.
 
Its still a better reversal than Daisy Pusher, but we're getting off topic here.
 
View619 said:
Nah, it has a shitty vertical hit-box and loses to grabs so you pretty much have to guess twice before you use it (will they attack? is it going to be a hit or grab?). Trust me, being predictable has nothing to do with it, it's just weak overall.

I would willingly trade that to PW if I got her armour, which people seem to ignore for some reason; fast armour charge (i.e. sweep) into Buer actually isn't bad, and then there's armoured jab.

I like armor into c.mp when the pressure is on too.

That said, you underestimate the sheer number of multihit moves in this game. It is admittedly much better when your opponent is on the ground, but when they are jumping in... fuck you hg s.mp... fuck you hard.
 
Lol battle it and mp bang are GREAT reversals i have no clue what game you guys are talking about.

I have an idea of what you guys both think:

Zid thinks that any reversal that doesnt hitconfirm into full combo or is at least safe on block, is ass. Well hes wrong. A good reversal is simply one that works for REVERSAL purposes. Ie getting people off of you and knocking them away. If a reversal was only good if it confirmed or was safe on block then most of the games reversal moves would be trash cause few to none are safe on block. Though yes, many do convert to combo on hit, but you still get destroyed on block. And few to none have the horizontal invulnerable range that headbutt has... With the exception of:





Mp bang:


This is a great reversal, i dont know whats going on but if you are getting it stuffed a lot then you are using it in the wrong situations or mistiming it very badly. As far as it only being good because people forget about it.... Cant we say this about any reversal that someone gets hit by? No one is purposefully getting hit by reversal attacks from any character. Ive never gotten hit by mp bang and thought to myself "oh snap i forgot she had that" seriously it hasn't happened. @View619 mp bang got considerably buffed going from sde to mde to encore. It is now completely invincible iirc up to its active frames. Nothing beats it outright unless it was a crossup, and if it was a crossup that beat it, you did it at the wrong time. If a neutral jump beat it and you wiffed, you mistimed it. It flatout beats most everything and if it doesnt flat out win it will always trade. Ive never seen it get stuffed. People just miss with it is all. Like i said its a ridiculous pbgc... Absolutely RIDICULOUS. shit is nutty good.

Not immune to throws though so, yeah, watch that shit.
 
While Battle Butt is a good reversal in that it actually does its job of getting the opponents off of you, I can kinda see where Zid is coming from (read: I agree with both Dime and Zid). Whenever I go for a reset against Bella the last thing that I'm worried about is getting hit with a Battle Butt just because if it hits... well then I lose momentum but my positioning will probably still be relatively ok and I'm not going to lose 50% life or have to deal with a, say, DHC into Catheads. But yeah, it does its job as a reversal.

As for MP Bang... even after playing against TJGamer, Ninja Nutria, Cisco_Kid, and McPeanuts (mentioning this to say that this isn't theorycrafting, just personal experience) I never really thought of it as being anything special. It works well for stopping grounded reset approaches, but I find myself jumping over it so often that I pay it no special mind. There is definitely nothing special about it compared to Fiber Upper or Updo, but it does its job at times. Also, why do people keep saying it's such a good move to PBGC into? I'm not saying that it's not a good move to PBGC with, but what makes it different from any other PBGC'd reversal (especially since it's vulnerable to grabs)?

And to continue on the topic of teams, yeah, duos feel... surprisingly fragile.
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
While Battle Butt is a good reversal in that it actually does its job of getting the opponents off of you, I can kinda see where Zid is coming from (read: I agree with both Dime and Zid). Whenever I go for a reset against Bella the last thing that I'm worried about is getting hit with a Battle Butt just because if it hits... well then I lose momentum but my positioning will probably still be relatively ok and I'm not going to lose 50% life or have to deal with a, say, DHC into Catheads. But yeah, it does its job as a reversal.

As for MP Bang... even after playing against TJGamer, Ninja Nutria, Cisco_Kid, and McPeanuts (mentioning this to say that this isn't theorycrafting, just personal experience) I never really thought of it as being anything special. It works well for stopping grounded reset approaches, but I find myself jumping over it so often that I pay it no special mind. There is definitely nothing special about it compared to Fiber Upper or Updo, but it does its job at times. Also, why do people keep saying it's such a good move to PBGC into? I'm not saying that it's not a good move to PBGC with, but what makes it different from any other PBGC'd reversal (especially since it's vulnerable to grabs)?

And to continue on the topic of teams, yeah, duos feel... surprisingly fragile.


I can totally see where zid is coming from as well. The thing is, he is saying that headbutt sucks. Ie a bad reversal. I can see him saying that as a reversal it doesnt give huge dividends on hit, but thats where i would personally stop. To me, saying a reversal is bad, means im not going to try to use it as a reversal. Examples are squiglys terrible reversal, sakuras fierce dp in streetfighter, peacocks lp bang in vanilla... THOSE are terrible reversals that suck... Cause they simply do not work.

As far as mp bang is concerned, its a good pbgc in my eyes for the following reasons:

A qcf input so it needs no timing to pbgc. Simply pushblock and mash qcf plus mp a bunch of times and you are golden.

It doesnt have a hard to do dp motion for pbgcing.

It has long horizontal range so it can hit multihit attacks that put peacock into blockstun for long amounts of time.

Unlike argus, mp bang cant be reactively supered through. So its a free argus on hit, and on block its generally a free argus into cats/some sort of safe dhc.

It really makes me wary of doing multihit lockdown attacks as that just gives peacock incentive to pbgc through with sword.

And last but certainly not least it requires no meter, so its always an option that is on the table.


Its detractors (mainly that it can be easily jumped over) can be beaten by peacock in a number of ways such as airthrow or teleport or simply pushblock the opponent out...

It aint perfect, but its really strong in my experience for the zoning character to have. Not to say she shouldnt have it, just that yeah its good. And in all my using peacock experience i have zero complaints abusing the move.
 
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Battle Butt sucks, as in, there are better reversals in the game (just about all of them). If Battle Butt was in Street Fighter, it'd probably be really good. But in this game, what this game supports, what you need in this game, and what most other characters can do off of reversals, it sucks. Or I could switch to the word low tier. It's a low tier reversal. By a lot.
 
I think what Dimex is trying to say and I agree with, is that to call a reversal 'bad' means it doesn't really serve the core function of a reversal. The main purpose of reversals in pretty much any game is to get the opponent off of you when pressured. If it can't do that, well then it does suck. If it can at least do that, well it serves it purpose so you can't really call it bad.
 
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Battle Butt is a bad point reversal.
Battle Butt is a great keepaway assist reversal.

It saves my Parasoul's ass and punishes assists.
 
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