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Poll: Are the Beta changes ready for prime-time?

Should the Beta IPS/undizzy/counterhit changes be implemented into the Real Game?

  • Yes! RIGHT NOW.

    Votes: 112 34.6%

  • Yes, but wait and put them in with Big Band.

    Votes: 54 16.7%

  • No. I don't like them / they need further work.

    Votes: 116 35.8%

  • I don't care. I will continue playing/avoiding the game the same amount either way.

    Votes: 42 13.0%
  • Total voters
    324
  • Poll closed .
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winnie said:
"fuck got hit by updo, Fuck got hit by updo, fuck another updo.... wait a minute I can just not IAD into an updo and wait it out then go in"
Wow, you nailed me!
 
ashxu said:
Thanks, we got it the first time you said it's a fighting game. Second time too, no need to spam it.


What is balancing for the lower levels of play? Nerfing things that are hard to deal with? LoL did that once when the game was still young. Low levels couldn't deal with a certain character and they ended up nerfing him pretty hard and he was unviable at higher levels for quite some time. Usually balancing for higher levels is best for the game as a whole. Lower levels of play won't really see the difference anyway unless it's something major. Changing the frames of a few moves here and there, I doubt newer players would notice anything different.

I agree with you, but you have to have a strong core first.

Look, right now the two strongest players in the game seem to have no desire to have undizzy and enjoy the long combos.

If we are to hold ourselves to the standard of "let the pros decide", then why change shit all? The devs just need to have a nice sit down with Duck, Sev, and a few others to find out how to keep/make SGs the best of all (fighting) games. We have a perfect opportunity to test the theory of "balance at the highest level" as our highest level is a super small club consisting of "like 3 players".

But we intuitively know that is a terrible decision. Should they have a say? Absolutely. Should it be weighted more heavily? Almost certainly. Should it be exclusive? We almost certainly agree that no.
 
I think games have to be balanced for the highest (pro) levels of play. These are the players that understand their characters the most, have studied the most, etc. When observing characters being played at their full potential (or close to it, one can argue that no matter how great the player a character's full potential is never reached) you can see what changes would be best for the game. You can see what is safe, unsafe. You see what characters struggle, and in what situations. You can see if mechanics need to be adjusted.

Balancing for lower levels is awful cause are we going to balance for NOOBs? for players that somewhat understand their characters? For average players? For above average? All these levels may struggle with different things.

What is important is that their isn't a huge brick wall initially, so a new player can jump in and feel like they are doing something. Then gradually get better and better. Baby steps. Skullgirls does succeed in this marvelously.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Riot's balancing is shit, though.
No, not really. I've been following the game since Season 1 and for the most part the game is more balanced than how it was if you compare the state of the game to a few months prior and inbetween seasons.

Boots 3 pots start in Season 1, gp5 stacking in season 2, league of assassins in early season 3 and snowball city at the end of 3.
 
blufang said:
...

That's the "core" I'm talking about.

A game must meet some unknown minimum standard before it can worry about pro-level balance. Even after pro-level balance, you have to consider the newer player.

SC2 is a good example. Recently nerfed widow mines was something that was handled easily enough by pros, but it was ruining lower tier enough that they needed to be fixed.

You can't make a game by ignoring huge portions of your player base.
 
Whoa...

Things i believe in as of the beta...specifically the beta that gives about 240 undizzy, fast decay, and assist confirms that scale and assists that lockout:


Im against invincible assist confirms, specifically because though ill get flack for it, i do see current mde and sde sg as turtle updo/pillar fests where people (top players and intermediates) hide behind their assists and just let the assist do all the talking. I found it real bad once i started seeing people using assists to punish blocked point characters recovering moves. Rather than "risk" the opposing character canceling into super and punishing an attempted retaliation.

Though yes there are many drawbacks to that style of play such as punishing the assist, getting happy birthdayed for mashing the assist and guessing wrong on a high/low mixup and thusly having the assist come out in taunt and getting combod with the point character.

Many/most see lockout as a good way of solving that dilemma.. But i dont for one primary reason along with a few tertiary reasons:


Lockout locks out all assists, it locks out standing and crouching normal assists, it locks out non invincible special assists, it locks out armored assists, throw assists... Etc etc.

I see that as bad balancing since it is a nerf that nerfs so many other moves many of which are in no need of actual nerfing.

My solution to this has always been to make invincible startup assists much harder to confirm off of or impossible to confirm off of, with them giving recoverable bounce which would effectively take away any otg abilities and instead enforce mid air confirms which are much harder to do, or, my personal favorite which is to make them like fortunes fiber upper is as an assist, confirmable but you need to anticipate a hit and have proper spacing in order to confirm.

Its my belief that invincible assists that have no lockout, but give no confirm either (or superhard confirms), will increase neutral in one of the few good ways, are still going to be fully punishable and happy birthdayable, Will still give huge dividends via gtfo just like capcom assist in mvc2, will make damage and momentum more dynamic since invincible assists will start to be used more as pokes and thusly will randomize how much damage a character has taken before getting combod... (A character may get hit by updo between 1 and 4 times, realistically, before getting confirmed by an actual throw/crossup/cr.lk)

Gtfo assists with no confirm is still AMAZING. Like seriously amazing. And with no ability to confirm them, or making them super hard confirms, the startup frames of invulnerability could be taken away and the game would become smarter because the assists would always work for what they were intended for, but you dont get punished hard for running into one. The game would become faster, more dynamic, more buttons, more stuff and spam on screen, less turtly, less easy mode confirmy, more ability to call out obvious offense with a gtfo assist than what lockout gives us when we make a mistake..
It just gives so much more by giving less.


In turn, assists that DONT have any invincible frames, will by default, get better in the meta. Which will lead to actual choices such as picking hairball or updo, or picking updo or LNL or cerecopter.


Basically more "random" hits that dont give confirm (or "easy" confirm) yet are still powerful pokes in their own right, will open up sg to more neutral, more diversity in assists being used, more diversity in starting damage being done to a character before that character is confirmed, less need to shorten combos since pillar and updo spam will give pause to reckless offense, and make confirms riskier to go for, yet not as risky as they are currently.

I just see it as basically giving few to no drawbacks and all sorts of dividends.


One of my pet peeves is when people (such as myself, even) say that the answer to a question is "dont get hit" or stay out of range/be more defensive.
I mean i give the advice because it is GOOD advice at this stage of the game... But to me it is advice that hampers well rounded sg play. I dont like turtling, i do however turtle, but id like more ability for me AND MY OPPONENT to press buttons yet be relatively safe in many situations (like ST and mvc2) Not just space each other out (which reminds me of sf4)

Making invincible assists spammable, but have few on hit dividends besides damage for the move and gtfo...seems like a very good thing for sg in my mind.


And i still cant fathom why others dont think the same way... I mean, assuming that they want more neutral and more dynamic gameplay in general.

In the end my hypothesis is that sf4 has really really skewed peoples perceptions of what a good fighting game is and how a good fighting game should work.

The evidence for that in my mind is how high an amount of people, top players included whose answer for so many things is

"Bait it out"

Which is a high end sf4 truism, and while certainly not a bad thing, i dont see it as being a barometer of how a game should be designed.


Mvc2, the game that everyone uses as an example for how sg is designed, is actually one of the games out there where you can run around pressing attacking buttons all day and have not a whole lot happen..
And its one of the most popular fighting games of all time... I dont think thats a coincidence.

Its also the game where an invincible confirmable otg assist is on more than likely the best team in the entire game. And take that team and assist out of things and marvel becomes a highly neutral game with capcom assist and the like.. Out that team and assist in though and you have a team that can ocv you if it manages to get in... Much like sg is.


Tldr for the last part:



i would want sg designed after team scrub, or spiral teams or blackheart teams or even sentinel teams.


I think designing it after msp is a huge mistake though, and giving invincible assists otg confirms is basically making any team that runs updo or pillar, basically msp, if not in form, then definitely in function.
 
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It's weird because I'm the guy that asked for Assist Lockout and I sincerely think a lot of you are being straight scrubs about it.

Yes, a lot of defensive play boils down to Invul. Assist.

But is that the fault of the game, or the players?

Are WE not the ones who won't use utility assists for alpha counters, pbgc, dping like fucking men, etc. etc.
 
iLoli said:
It's weird because I'm the guy that asked for Assist Lockout and I sincerely think a lot of you are being straight scrubs about it.

Yes, a lot of defensive play boils down to Invul. Assist.

But is that the fault of the game, or the players?

Are WE not the ones who won't use utility assists for alpha counters, pbgc, dping like fucking men, etc. etc.

So if something is disproportionately strong relative to the other options and people choose to use that... that's the player's fault?

No one is arguing that Updo and Hairball are equal and people just prefer to use Updo. It is that Updo is stronger than Hairball (except in a few specific circumstances, no doubt).
 
Can I take my vote back? I don't even know how to trigger undizzy. Basically I voted on something I didn't know shit about. Let's fix that with a do over. Put me on undecided until I learn to play like a man. (but I guess "man" varies in definition)
Spencer said:
If the game is unapproachable for a newer player, then you can expect not to get newer players
I used to be new and got owned a fuckton of times but I liked how everyone could keep me in a long loop so I stayed and continued playing, I'm still not good and STILL get wrecked but I don't feel like long combos would drive anyone away unless they're quitters and who wants those? I even get owned in the beta because I dunno when a reset is coming or I don't react fast enough to a grab but I won't quit the game because I don't have the speed for it I decided to try harder and actually LEARN the game and I think I've improved somewhat.

I feel like mapping out a persons feeling when they play this game for the first time. Will it make sense? Fuck no lol I just feel like writing shit like I'm sure the rest of you do c:

"Well I just got fucking looped to death"--> "WHAT THE FUCK QUIT USING YOUR ASSIST YOU ASS"-->"This isn't in fair what the fuck?"-->"HOW DO I GET IN?"-->"Fuck this I quit" <--- You don't want this guy

but with some luck that person can transition into:

"I guess my approach isn't very good"-->"I keep running into the assists I should stop doing that"-->"I should try safer moves"-->"Hey I can actually do something" <---You want this type of player

Thing is regardless of whatever stupid system that ends up being implemented the real core of the problem is the players themselves and their attitudes towards their loss but I'm sure that what I just wrote (if it even made sense) has been done to death.

Er... basically this game is still approachable the way it is but I don't mind the beta version either but I can't say I'll see a difference in gameplay.

Also,

I really hope I made sense because I'm not even sure. Or is it too late for my response I dunno this whole thread doesn't make sense so whatever there's my two cents if it made sense then cool if not disregard it.
 
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I sometimes think there should be an automatic preface to all posts on Skullheart saying, "this is a little off-topic but..."

I'm pretty much indifferent to assist lockout (unless it has changed in the beta?). I have no problem with it, but rarely feel it has a significant effect on a match either. I welcome scaling damage from assist confirms a little more enthusiastically, but still don't really feel it changes the dynamic much.

My opinion is that the main constraint on assist use needs to come from gameplay decisions. The ability to perform uncombo infinites on assists (with huge gaps in some cases due to knockdowns) has a lot of potential to discourage their use in neutral. If the punishment for never committing your point character to something that can protect your assist is a dead assist, straight updo+turtling can't stay viable.

I also want to pick on one phrase from @Dime_x 's post
will increase neutral
I feel like that does not describe a useful design goal. Perhaps a word that would be more palatable for me would be "deepens" neutral.
 
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Maybe this might sound stupid, but I think assist is imbalance because a few of them are flat out better than everyone else.

It's not really a problem for me since I like Parasoul anyway, but what if you just don't like using Parasoul, Fillia, or Double?
 
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Stuff said:
Can I take my vote back? I don't even know how to trigger undizzy. Basically I voted on something I didn't know shit about. Let's fix that with a do over. Put me on undecided until I learn to play like a man. (but I guess "man" varies in definition)

I used to be new and got owned a fuckton of times but I liked how everyone could keep me in a long loop so I stayed and continued playing, I'm still not good and STILL get wrecked but I don't feel like long combos would drive anyone away unless they're quitters and who wants those? I even get owned in the beta because I dunno when a reset is coming or I don't react fast enough to a grab but I won't quit the game because I don't have the speed for it I decided to try harder and actually LEARN the game and I think I've improved somewhat.

I feel like mapping out a persons feeling when they play this game for the first time. Will it make sense? Fuck no lol I just feel like writing shit like I'm sure the rest of you do c:

"Well I just got fucking looped to death"--> "WHAT THE FUCK QUIT USING YOUR ASSIST YOU ASS"-->"This isn't in fair what the fuck?"-->"HOW DO I GET IN?"-->"Fuck this I quit" <--- You don't want this guy

but with some luck that person can transition into:

"I guess my approach isn't very good"-->"I keep running into the assists I should stop doing that"-->"I should try safer moves"-->"Hey I can actually do something" <---You want this type of player

Thing is regardless of whatever stupid system that ends up being implemented the real core of the problem is the players themselves and their attitudes towards their loss but I'm sure that what I just wrote (if it even made sense) has been done to death.


I really hope I made sense because I'm not even sure. Or is it too late for my response I dunno this whole thread doesn't make sense so whatever there's my two cents if it made sense then cool if not disregard it.

It made sense. I hope more of the right people see/read it.
 
You have 51.3% saying yes, and only 35.8% saying no. I think they will wait til Big Band before implementing beta changes into the actual game. Remember Mike did say he was happy with the beta.
 
Spencer said:
So if something is disproportionately strong relative to the other options and people choose to use that... that's the player's fault?

No one is arguing that Updo and Hairball are equal and people just prefer to use Updo. It is that Updo is stronger than Hairball (except in a few specific circumstances, no doubt).
The situations are not that specific, You can't pushblock the thing it extends combos without damaging ips too much (don't call me on this I had a tod prepatch with hairball very early in the combo) , you can play footsies with the damn thing, it covers your approach from the air on top of having amazing lockdown. It does way more than just cover your ass when you fuck up your nuetral game; which it can do also.
 
iLoli said:
The situations are not that specific, You can't pushblock the thing it extends combos without damaging ips too much (don't call me on this I had a tod prepatch with hairball very early in the combo) , you can play footsies with the damn thing, it covers your approach from the air on top of having amazing lockdown. It does way more than just cover your ass when you fuck up your nuetral game; which it can do also.


Yes it does all those things, and updo is still stronger than hairball.

That alone is very telling.

But to go on a bit:

Hairball on block is easy to pbgc at the place where the point will. Go for there mixup, its easy to autoguard, it doesnt affect the air so it can be easy to get around...

It has flaws. its definitely damn, damned good, but it isnt updo invincibly confirming into full combo for 1 hit and little scaling and less pushback on hit and thusly easier to convert in many instances.

This is one of the most obvious examples of upjust how good updo and pillar are.

Also:


The style of the game makes certain assists better than others. For instance beam assists are really good in mvc3 cause of all the teleport characters and all the characters that stay near the ground or have to predictably land at certain timings.

In sg, 90% or more of the "poking" and footsie game is in the air, which makes updo stringer when compared to hairball.

And finally, in sg there is pushblock autoguard, making on block mixups from grounded lockdown much much weaker. Please read my words correctly here. I'm not saying that the lockdown is useless, I'm just saying that the lockdown is comparatively weak when compared to updo on hit.

And finally with sg being so "dont get hit" strategically and point characters already having GREAT offense. A dp assist makes a lot more sense than a lockdown assist that only pumps up the average characters ability to open up, a little bit. But updo however opens up the average characters chances of not being hit, greatly (while also upping the opponents chances of being hit)

Updo is simply better in the context of skullgirls current mechanics.

If however sg became a more grounded game, and somehow lost pushblock autoguard... THEN hairball would be absolutely ridiculous and you would certainly see many more people picking it.
 
IsaVulpes said:
I wonder how you even know how good or bad I am?
You don't strike me as a person that watches my Sets (not that any relevant ones are uploaded anyways)
I have watched about 1/3 of your set with Mr. Peck, and the entirety of some set with a Fortune streamer who's name I can't remember. Around an hour and a half of footage in total, which is more than enough to form an opinion. If those aren't relevant, then post something that's relevant. And if you're curious as to why I've watched them, it's because I wanted to see how you played outside of combo videos
 
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Sanger Zonvolt said:
Indeed, champions move in and out of viability so often it is annoying.
Yet, it's ridiculously popular and has a ton of pros that play the game religiously.
 
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blufang said:
You have 51.3% saying yes, and only 35.8% saying no. I think they will wait til Big Band before implementing beta changes into the actual game. Remember Mike did say he was happy with the beta.


I'm glad
 
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@KhaosMuffins I think it is more similar than you give it credit (invincible DP/butt), but FU is weaker than the other two and the minimum standard that DP assists need to move toward.

@Sanger Zonvolt
A lot of that has to do with a large pro scene and an evolving meta game. As some champs find viability, some pros look for their counter which increases new champs viability.

Interestingly, I think that supports my Updo hatred. What counters Updo? Updo...
 
Spencer said:
@KhaosMuffins I think it is more similar than you give it credit (invincible DP/butt), but FU is weaker than the other two and the minimum standard that DP assists need to move toward.
Again, one DP assist gives you a combo afterwards, and one gets the opponent out of your face. One DP assist shifts momentum, and the other one stops momentum. They both create a vertical wall, yes, but the reward for either hitting is quite different.
 
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Lock N Load counter Updo.

Also Fiber Upper isn't as much a dp assist as it is a alpha counter assist. But we tend to forget about those options huh?
 
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dekillsage said:
Lock N Load counter Updo.

Also Fiber Upper isn't as much a dp assist as it is a alpha counter assist. But we tend to forget about those options huh?
I'm pretty sure I'm the only player who alpha counters in this entire community.
 
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Broken Loose said:
I'm pretty sure I'm the only player who alpha counters in this entire community.
I use it a good bit now after watching my match vs. Duckator a few times and realizing where I failed to use it.
 
Broken Loose said:
I'm pretty sure I'm the only player who alpha counters in this entire community.
Why.. you..


I...



um.............


ah haha I get it.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Again, one DP assist gives you a combo afterwards, and one gets the opponent out of your face. One DP assist shifts momentum, and the other one stops momentum. They both create a vertical wall, yes, but the reward for either hitting is quite different.

Right, which is why I said it should be the minimum goal for the other DP. It can still be confirmed off of though, no? Given specific spacing/timing?
 
I really like how combo starters with assists scale combos down 50%, but it being a counterhit isn't such a spectacular feat that it scales 90%. If any bonus it should be 60%. It's gotten so little attention I'm wondering if it's worth starting a thread just for assist-start combos.
 
Lets get back on main thread topic now please.

Last 7/8 or so posts had nothing to do with the OP at all. As much as I like seeing lengthy and amusing grudge match talk like the next guy, the current trending conversation isn't suited for this thread and is only cluttering things up for the people wanting to read up other people thoughts on this potential change for Skullgirls gameplay.

I suggest find/make an appropriate thread to continue the conversation if people are still interested in that topic. Thanks.
 
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winnie said:
well back on topic then, who wants to bitch about something and have everyone yell at you next?
I wanna crouch-tech throws, dammit! I can't tell if my reaction is too slow or if I'm not releasing the stick in time!
 
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