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Possible new IPS

Dime_x said:
You are quite correct about that being why i dont like undizzy,.. That is EXACTLY why i dont like undizzy... Or might i say.. Didnt like it. I didnt know what your philosophy was
Uuuh.. it was VERY obviously communicated that this was the reason. It was posted by everyone and the night in the Undizzy discussion thread back then.
I even repeated it in Post-Crash SH. What the HECK did you think it was for?

Also, one of the biggest reasons why i dislike the idea of the new ips is precisely because of the longer neutral... Its because i think painwheel has one of the worst neutrals in the game.
So you dislike a system wide change because it affects your character? How about like, even if it was true that PW gets hurt the most by this and shit, thinking that this would become evident decently fast, followed by buffs for PW?

(EVERYONE agrees that painwheel is low tier and perhaps the worst in the game)
That's just not true.. much rather she's perceived as Midtier. You're free to disagree with her being that all you want, but "Everyone agrees" is .. not the case.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Oh, this thread is still going?
I like what Undizzy does for forcing you not to do Long Combo 1 -> reset -> Long Combo 1. That's likely why Dime hates it, and it sure ain't elegant, but damn if it doesn't do EXACTLY what I wanted.
I personally think it should be a lower number. As it is now, if you have one calculated reset far into a combo, you can kill in maybe one, definitely two. I think with a lower number it could at least be like three or four resets to kill 1v1 which I think is a more involving game.
Yes I know people are going to get sad that I'm pretty much the only one who thinks one hit shouldn't equal death, but whatever.
 
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@Dime_x Yep, undizzy slowly fading is there specifically to give the other person breathing room and allow there to BE a chance for neutral after someone gets hit. Either:
- You did a long combo and they got a chance to escape via burst
- You did a longish combo and they got a chance to escape after they got nailed again quickly
- You did a series of short combos, between each of which they had a chance to escape <- this, btw, is the way to avoid undizzy entirely. Lab monsters sorta...miss the point.
or
- You spent a lot of meter in order to not allow them a chance to escape...meter which you had to earn first, so this isn't happening to the first character usually.

That's also why it carries over on death/snap, but not on tag/DHC. And it's THE reason I do not want to drop the concept, to prevent more one-player-ness. The length limit turns out to be a side effect, although also helpful.

Speaking of meter, I just noticed that kara-meter for normals given when you're below 1 meter doesn't follow meter scaling rules in combos. I should fix that.
 
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Mike_Z said:
@Dime_x Yep, undizzy slowly fading is there specifically to give the other person breathing room and allow there to BE a chance for neutral after someone gets hit. Either:
- You did a long combo and they got a chance to escape via burst
- You did a longish combo and they got a chance to escape after they got nailed again quickly
- You did a series of short combos, between each of which they had a chance to escape <- this, btw, is the way to avoid undizzy entirely. Lab monsters sorta...miss the point.
or
- You spent a lot of meter in order to not allow them a chance to escape...meter which you had to earn first, so this isn't happening to the first character usually.

That's also why it carries over on death/snap, but not on tag/DHC. And it's THE reason I do not want to drop the concept, to prevent more one-player-ness. The length limit turns out to be a side effect, although also helpful.

Speaking of meter, I just noticed that kara-meter for normals given when you're below 1 meter doesn't follow meter scaling rules in combos. I should fix that.

Are you going to lower value for the undizzy limit? Honestly, you'll never really stop people from developing "long" combos, imo, so you should just be strict and see if it does what you want. Also, thanks for pointing out the "snap to ruin dhc order"; I'm going to stop assuming that users on the Internet are willing to spend a minute to think about what they just read and be direct with my posts.
 
Just out of curiosity, what would optimized combos look like if the IPS rule was "you cannot use the same move twice", like full stop, nothing about whether you used it at the beginning of a chain or the end of a chain or whatever. You would still get one free air chain and one free ground chain, and maybe you could say that crouching and standing normals no longer count as the same move if that's necessary. A lot of people feel like combos should be shorter, but would this be too short?
 
Mr. X said:
I pray SPI isn't the name that sticks for IPS2.0

Don't derail this into which game is more obscure between SG and MB.

The complaints about learning are dumb. Whether the game gets patched or just gets played for a while, you're going to be learning "new things" (like improved bnbs) regardless in a game this young.

I don't find this argument compelling. It is a bit hand-wavy.

Yes you have to learn new things, but at some point you should be learning more about the game rather than re-learning say combos, how to block, your move list, etc.

As far as I am concerned, there should be a reason for forcing a player to relearn something they already know.

"You should be learning stuff anyway" is hardly carte blanche for sweeping, unnecessary changes.

Note, I am not saying that this change is unnecessary. That is ultimately up to the game developer, and how the player base as a whole feels.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Just out of curiosity, what would optimized combos look like if the IPS rule was "you cannot use the same move twice", like full stop, nothing about whether you used it at the beginning of a chain or the end of a chain or whatever. You would still get one free air chain and one free ground chain, and maybe you could say that crouching and standing normals no longer count as the same move if that's necessary. A lot of people feel like combos should be shorter, but would this be too short?

Combos would probably get very short and VERY linear with almost no variety.
 
Spencer said:
I don't find this argument compelling. It is a bit hand-wavy.

Yes you have to learn new things, but at some point you should be learning more about the game rather than re-learning say combos, how to block, your move list, etc.

As far as I am concerned, there should be a reason for forcing a player to relearn something they already know.

"You should be learning stuff anyway" is hardly carte blanche for sweeping, unnecessary changes.

Note, I am not saying that this change is unnecessary. That is ultimately up to the game developer, and how the player base as a whole feels.
I understand you're point that what I said is poor but not really, it was more of a short comment that I could explain.

Skullgirls is a really young game. What you have learnt now is not going to be what you're using forever. Yeah, we have these optimized max damage combos for each character but the game would likely shift to particular characters/teams and if you want to win or keep up, you're going to be going with what is strongest, either the team or finding a counterpick, which will take a lot of experimenting, learning and relearning not to mention better combos being discovered. The people who don't would just be left behind and continuing their day one/week one styles.

I'd be surprised if the community would be so stubborn/lazy to stagnate and use their same characters/teams forever and not find new things, giving up on learning and trying to find or make up more powerful teams, strategies, tactics and the like.

This would be if the game remained untouched.

So I find the complaints about learning, unlearning, relearning because of a new version/patch negligible.
 
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Mr. X said:
I'd be surprised if the community would be so stubborn/lazy to stagnate and use their same characters/teams forever and not find new things, giving up on learning and trying to find or make up more powerful teams, strategies, tactics and the like.
I wouldn't be that surprised if some did exactly that. I mean I know people who have explicitly said they are never picking x/doing y (actually its more like one guy but still)
Game is balanced like great communist regime, unlike puny capitalist Marvel 2; All teams are equal but some teams are more equal than others.
 
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Mr. X said:
I like this.

Especially coming from Chairman Mao!

For those not familiar: it is a paraphrase from "Animal Farm" which was essentially a rally against communism (specifically Stalinism).

On topic:

People are going to use what works. If you can get a way without a fully optimized combo, you will. I will use the same combo I have until it stops being good for me (which is actually right about now to be honest).
 
Jason said:
Combos would probably get very short and VERY linear with almost no variety.

Character-dependant. Squigly probably will still somehow get 9k. Others might be hurt harder, but the stand/crouch distinction would seriously alleviate that. Can't disagree that they'll be linear, though.
 
VIVIT_rv00 said:
Character-dependant. Squigly probably will still somehow get 9k. Others might be hurt harder, but the stand/crouch distinction would seriously alleviate that. Can't disagree that they'll be linear, though.

I think this is the part that I would be most nervous about... I think it will affect the DPS of certain characters disproportionately. It may not, but it would be a huge concern.
 
I'm going to be the anti-combo guy here and say lower the undizzy limit along with including this and the previous IPS.

Seriously, would it be all too bad for players to learn to use short combos and reset them rather than go for 2 touch-of-deaths all the time? I think the issue is that the players here are all too used to combo heavy games where there isn't much of a penalty for having combos go on forever. Maybe they need a little push to learn to use resets rather than touch-of-deaths.

But again, maybe it has unforeseen issues. That's what we have beta for.
 
Nap1400 said:
Seriously, would it be all too bad for players to learn to use short combos and reset them rather than go for 2 touch-of-deaths all the time?

I wouldn't mind it. Actually I might welcome it.
 
ukyo_rulz said:
I wouldn't mind it. Actually I might welcome it.

I think most of us would... or we are just a loud bunch.
 
Sooo..........

Wait wait.

Mike was shitting on BB for putting an inelegant design choice in to stop long combos and now he's doing the same?

Man, I totally saw this coming, but honestly I expect this further down the line.

Maybe Mike should give the "timed combo" thing a shot.
 
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iLoli said:
Sooo..........

Wait wait.

Mike was shitting on BB for putting an inelegant design choice in to stop long combos and now he's doing the same?

Man, I totally saw this coming, but honestly I expect this further down the line.

Maybe Mike should give the "timed combo" thing a shot.
BB's choice made the same set of inputs give inconsistent results. Mike's combo systems can still be written out on paper and work ingame. You're being purposely obtuse.

Anyway, if you ever decide to read the thread, the problem isn't length so much as "boring" combos like buer loops and barrel loops.
 
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I think combo length is also a relevant issue in the last 10 pages, but your other point is valid. IPS is different in important ways.
 
Broken Loose said:
BB's choice made the same set of inputs give inconsistent results. Mike's combo systems can still be written out on paper and work ingame. You're being purposely obtuse.

Anyway, if you ever decide to read the thread, the problem isn't length so much as "boring" combos like buer loops and barrel loops.


No dude, he's not being obtuse. THERE IS ALREADY A TIMED SYSTEM IN SG THAT YIELDS DIFFERENT RESULTS BASED ON TIME, for the same inputs given. That system is obviously the undizzy decay system. I can do the same combo into the same reset and have that reset give undizzy at different points of my combo depending on how fast my reset was or how fast i do my combo.

This isnt a HUGE thing, but it does apply.

It is slightly hypocritical of mike, however, it isnt necessarily something to criticize mike over.

People make mistakes or go back on there words/make different plans when they see that what they at first thought... No longer applies, or is much harder to do than what they first thought.

But lets not say that what happened, hasnt happened. No reason for us to go sticking our heads in the sand about the goings on of things. Shit happens.
 
Broken Loose said:
BB's choice made the same set of inputs give inconsistent results. Mike's combo systems can still be written out on paper and work ingame. You're being purposely obtuse.

Anyway, if you ever decide to read the thread, the problem isn't length so much as "boring" combos like buer loops and barrel loops.
Woah, captain cool, cool them jets.

No, the same set of inputs did not get inconsistent results.

How would that even work in a program as such?

The length of a combo depends on the starting hitconfirm and follow up pathways combined with how long the combo has been going on for.

Which Mike criticized as boring way to cutdown on long combos.

But as of right now he isn't doing too much better himself, on the record.

His ways of cutting down on combo length and repetition are becoming more and more inelegant.

Now don't get me wrong, I love mike babu, but it's only fair to blow him up for this.

Everyone gets blown up once or twice in their life, just because I'm pointing something out doesn't mean I think BB is a better game, or they're better designers, or I hate Mike, or I'm being a troll, or I want people to quit SG, or I want people to go point and laugh.

Keep kidding yourself if you don't want to think this is about length, as of right now, loops are the longest combos in the game.
 
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iLoli said:
Woah, captain cool, cool them jets.

No, the same set of inputs did not get inconsistent results.

How would that even work in a program as such?

The length of a combo depends on the starting hitconfirm and follow up pathways.

Which Mike criticized as boring way to cutdown on long combos.

But as of right now he isn't doing too much better himself, on the record.

His ways of cutting down on combo length and repetition are becoming more and more inelegant.

Now don't get me wrong, I love mike babu, but it's only fair to blow him up for this.

Everyone gets blown up once or twice in their life, just because I'm pointing something out doesn't mean I think BB is a better game, or they're better designers, or I hate Mike, or I'm being a troll, or I want people to quit SG, or I want people to go point and laugh.

Keep kidding yourself if you don't want to think this is about length, as of right now, loops are the longest combos in the game.
Combo ends after they've been hit for X amount of time (measured in frames) does mean you can have the same set of inputs giving varied results if you don't hit every attack with the same timing every time.

A time based limit is very much not the same as IPS or Stun.

Dime_x said:
I can do the same combo into the same reset and have that reset give undizzy at different points of my combo depending on how fast my reset was or how fast i do my combo.


@Dime_x your combo doesn't stun faster because you perform said combo faster or slower.
 
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I'm sure I'll be happy in the end no matter what Mike_Z does with the game because I love Skullgirls; plus adapting can be fun in my opinion. There is however, one thing that irks me. That being the thought that by the time the Squigly patch finally does come to consoles and I get some lab time to learn some new bnbs and reset tricks, this new IPS beta might come out soon after. Most players may then end up going back to the PC version and then I'm stuck with no one to play with. What I'm getting at is that while I'll stick with SG no matter what, the thought of finally getting my hands on the new version then everything I learn becomes obsolete within a month or so sort of disheartens me.
 
@TJGamer
Oh he was yours...okay. :^)
And yeah, this is a decent concern especially since we have no *&@* idea on the timeframe of the console update stuff still. It's another reason I am strongly considering just letting things be for a while.

--

I'm sure iLoli was talking about "the exact same set of inputs" meaning down to the frame, in which case it doesn't give varied results in BB either.
That's not the same as "doing the same combo", which usually just means "the same attacks in a row" since your timing will likely vary by more than a frame.

The difference is this, though:
In BBCT/CP, your combo can drop if you wait a frame longer to catch them off a launch or out of hitstun simply based on that extra time. (So jumpin->walk a few frames->attack can drop where jumpin->immediate attack would mean the entire combo works.) That's not only inelegant, in practice it will (and has!) come across as "random" since those extra frames of waiting are not really noticeable or correctable. The extreme example was that the extra hitstop introduced by starting a combo in CT with a counterhit would make the end of some regular combos not work.
In SG, that doesn't happen. You can do any combo at whatever speed and, as long as the hits themselves make contact, nothing else will affect it.

The speed of your RESETS can affect things, but that's not even close to related. A reset is a spot where the other person can do something! If they hit you and combo you, that also affects your ability to do your next combo. :^P
Faster resets, which give the opponent less time to react, more heavily affect the next combo...but that still only matters after a reset.
In BB the time factor is applied to every combo; in SG, undizzy falloff only matters if you just hit them with something that left them with undizzy.
 
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@Mike_Z : Isn't that more of a problem with HSD in general?

Also, doesn't the time thing also work in this game with the stages?

Remember on Fanatics's stream, when he was doing Wingzero's combo input by input and he still got pink sparks because his timing wasn't tight enough, therefore making him go to a higher stage earlier than he wanted to?
 
Dime_x said:
Ask me how many times i relearned my sf4 combos and st combos and a2 combos and a3 combos and soul calibur 2 combos and cvs2 combos and mvc2 combos... Go ahead.

Also, i dont really care how many times you relearned combos in an obscure fg. Same as i dont care if you walked 10 miles to school in freezing weather, while fighting off rabid dogs going uphill.

I learned everyone of those games you listed, but Melty went through 12 patches on the PC first and close to six or seven arcade versions. And every version was exciting.

I bring up Melty because Melty was not a competitive game at least half of its life span. It was an April Fool's joke brought to life and then casually worked on by the small team who slowly yet surely figured out what direction they wanted the game to go in.

The same is being done here with SG. Mike is trying out a little bit of everything, chipping away at what he hopes to eventually nail as his ideal rendition of SG.

:P
 
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@iLoli
I didn't see the stream you talked about but no, stages are not time based. Everything is based on what attacks you did and whether you were in the air or not.

And no, that's not a problem inherent in HSD - HSD can be completely HIT based without having any time-based bits. MvC3 has some time component to the HSD, from what I remember - you get an extra rep with Doom if you airdash to land sooner in all the previous reps, or something. As far as anyone knows GG/HnK/P4A and the BBs in between CT and CP don't use time...if you take slightly longer to complete some chain that won't invalidate the end.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Just out of curiosity, what would optimized combos look like if the IPS rule was "you cannot use the same move twice", like full stop, nothing about whether you used it at the beginning of a chain or the end of a chain or whatever. You would still get one free air chain and one free ground chain, and maybe you could say that crouching and standing normals no longer count as the same move if that's necessary. A lot of people feel like combos should be shorter, but would this be too short?

Koihime Musou I believe uses this rule on critical counters, and just like any other fighter, folks go to the optimal stuff.

If Mike Z wants resets, he's going to have to make resets the best option in nearly every circumstance.
 
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Still think we are getting too much theoretical talk and things could work differently when the beta with the new ips is out.


Also, since it is kind of an Extra layer to the infinite prevention system, why not call it "EX IPS"? (tried changing the name order... Things went wrong. Só tis better like that)
 
just say beta ips. if it's actually implemented in the future then just call it ips
 
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Honestly the naming thing was a joke. Whichever IPS wins out will just be called IPS because the other one will be called old IPS or nothing at all.
 
I've dug deep and hard, and discovered that these two will be my most missed combos with this new IPS.
 
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iLoli said:
Mike was shitting on BB for putting an inelegant design choice in to stop long combos and now he's doing the same?

The BB potshots aren't even the worst of it. I remember watching his conversation (with Max I think) about how UMVC3 sucked because "the combo system was working against the gameplay that they wanted, but instead of fixing the system they added all sorts of extra rules and exceptions".

Still, I can see why Mike made the changes that he did. It makes sense from his point of view. He wants the game to play a certain way and he's not afraid to get a little ham-fisted in his efforts to get what he wants. I can understand that even if I don't like it. I do think that if he felt this way from the start it would have been prudent to lay off the potshots on other games.

Mike_Z said:
The speed of your RESETS can affect things, but that's not even close to related.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's not even close to related. I agree that it's not directly analogous but it's in the same ballpark where "hardly noticeable things can have big ramifications on whether a combo works or not".
 
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Why do people care so much about what Mike Z said God knows how many months ago? He's only human and anyone can change their minds and disregard old beliefs. He made the engine for the game, but I don't think he expected the combos we got now and the ones we had in Vanilla and SDE days.
 
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I would just like to say that undizzy intentionally makes ou delay your resets. If you have perfect timing you are rewarded with opimally fast resets, if you don't then you have to wait a fraction of a second more in order to be sure. The sake can be said about a combo system in reverse, but the difference is that undizzy is intended to delay, hsd is not intended to speed up. One conpliments the function of the system the other does not.
 
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