Possible new IPS

[Jason]

The BB potshots aren't even the worst of it. I remember watching his conversation (with Max I think) about how UMVC3 sucked because "the combo system was working against the gameplay that they wanted, but instead of fixing the system they added all sorts of extra rules and exceptions".

That whole conversation was about "Why Hitstun Deterioration is Bad".

He wasn't blasting them for adding exceptions to HTSD to get the game to work the way they wanted.

He was saying that they shouldn't have used HTSD in the first place, because as soon as you start using HTSD then you have to start adding exceptions which runs the risk of introducing infinites.

 

[Broken Loose]

Until you can understand the fundamental difference between devising a combo on the fly in a HSD game and devising a combo on the fly in Skullgirls, you aren't really qualified to criticize Mike's statements on which is more elegant or intuitive.

 

[ukyo_rulz]

He wasn't blasting them for adding exceptions to HTSD to get the game to work the way they wanted.

I think Mike is a great guy making a fine game, but let's try to avoid putting him on a pedestal. The guy made some statements criticizing others for failing at something that he eventually failed at himself (using a system that failed to produce the desired gameplay). That's not really a huge deal, but it's something that happened.

Until you can understand the fundamental difference between devising a combo on the fly in a HSD game and devising a combo on the fly in Skullgirls, you aren't really qualified to criticize Mike's statements on which is more elegant or intuitive.

You just need to know the meaning of "elegance" and "intuitiveness" and have experience with both HSD and SG. If anything, you become less and less qualified to evaluate how intuitive SG is the more intimately you know it because "intuitiveness" is something that can only be judged by an individual who is unfamiliar with a system.

 

[Master Chibi]

Nah Mike knows what he wants, he just doesn't know how to get to it.

HSD is there as an end all and the guys behind the game could give a rat's ass with what it does at this point. HSD is like fixing something broken with tape and gum, only to continuously add more tape and gum onto it later on when the previous amount proves not to suffice. Also band aids.

 

[ClarenceMage]

I welcome everything that shortens combo length because I am incredibly lazy and don't want to come up with long optimised combos. I'm not being facetious, I really am just really really lazy.

 

[Mike_Z]

@ukyo_rulz
Just to say it, IPS didn't fail. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. It didn't do everything I (or others) wanted with respect to combo length, but it wasn't supposed to.
It was, in fact, supposed to do the OPPOSITE - stop infinites without restricting otherwise.
As a system it doesn't have any exceptions, the complete opposite of HSD. (Neither does undizzy, but that's unrelated.) I did, and still do, criticize HSD for being an incomplete solution to any problem - length, repetitiveness, damage, or infinites.

Turns out most players want "restricted otherwise" so I now have to figure out how to get to that without being annoying.

Also, people are judgmental.

 

[iLoli]

Should throws be included in the new ips?

Maybe throws rapidly decrease your undizzy?

 

[Spencer]

@Dime_x
Assist pro-ration?

I like IPS. I find it to be intuitive. Dizzy is far less intuitive, but it is something that I can generally feel out... in any case, I'm glad both are in the game.

For those with more fight game experience, would heavier back-end scaling affect combo length? What's the negative?

 

[ragnorok64]

I was hoping to see some new ips changes at Salty. Kinda disappointed Mike seems to have scrapped it for the time being.

 

[Darklightjg1]

I'd be elated if that's the case. Like I said I think IPS is fine how it is now. Not too restrictive (restrictive enough), but I don't see people 1-shotting without using a TON of resources (and how do you get those resources in the first place?)

 

[Zidiane]

Should throws be included in the new ips?

Maybe throws rapidly decrease your undizzy?

Just make throws scale to 25% like Cerebella's Deflector does. I think that could alleviate some issues.

 

[Raz]

I heard on SC last night from a few voices who weren't Mike that this idea is scrapped. I was really hoping it would be in the beta sometime in the future at least to see how it is. There is nothing to lose by putting it in the beta to try it out. With potentially a lot to gain. I hope the idea to test it isn't out of the question.

-A noobs 2cents

 

[ragnorok64]

Mike just said he's tired of hearing people complain. Also considering everything he has on his plate I'm surprised he'd have time.

 

[Vadsamoht]

I too hope that this will eventually be beta'd, but I guess it's somewhat understandable.

 

[Zidiane]

I really think it would have worked well too. I hope it gets Beta'd.

 

[Number 13]

Kind of lame this idea could get potentially denied from even Beta access (Isn't testing new stuff the main point of the Beta?) because of a few vocal knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Spencer]

Kind of lame this idea could get potentially denied from even Beta access (Isn't testing new stuff the main point of the Beta?) because of a few vocal knee-jerk reactions.

I'm guessing it is more than that... Mike_Z doesn't strike me has having such thin skin so as to cancel an idea he had based on "a vocal knee-jerk reactions".

He said he was done talking about it. If it is going to go to beta, I'm guessing we won't know until it gets there.

 

[Mike_Z]

Don't listen to people that aren't me telling you what I'll do. Ain't nothin' scrapped, but I need to find something that's at least AS restrictive as what's currently there, which just tracking links, isn't.
:^)

I was thinking about it a bit more - there might be something else interesting to try: Track normals from the first hit, but still only enforce it in Stage 5 so if you're unsure what you landed you can improvise for a bit.
Anyone want to take a shot at optimizing with that?

 

[Jason]

Isn't that more or less the same thing as 'always stage 5' that was tried for a while? Its a little different since you can re-use things from stage 2 in stage 3 but that's pretty minor.

Wasn't that thrown out because it was making combos too linear?

 

[Age]

Don't listen to people that aren't me telling you what I'll do. Ain't nothin' scrapped, but I need to find something that's at least AS restrictive as what's currently there, which just tracking links, isn't.
:^)

I was thinking about it a bit more - there might be something else interesting to try: Track normals from the first hit, but still only enforce it in Stage 5 so if you're unsure what you landed you can improvise for a bit.
Anyone want to take a shot at optimizing with that?

The first thing that comes to mind for optimising is to find the biggest damage chain I can and loop it 3-4 times until stage 5. I'll play around with it a bit later though.

 

[Dime]

I dont see why we dont just bite the bullet and make everything stage 5 at the first hit...

 

[Mao]

I dont see why we dont just bite the bullet and make everything stage 5 at the first hit...

Because then optimised combos would be different dependant on the starter that you used which is dumb and is the reason why stages exist in the first place.

 

[bsobotka]

I think the easy change is just lower undizzy. Right now optimized combos are going well over 400 because it goes off on chain starters. Why not lower it so it actually goes off closer to whatever it is now (350?) in a maxed combo. Try putting it at like 300 or 250 or something. This way shorter combos to resets are more worth it than the maxed out combos that just skim by undizzy. Maybe not but I personally wouldn't have an issue with just trying it.

 

[Shnarfl]

no ips undizzy at 100

 

[Dime]

Because then optimised combos would be different dependant on the starter that you used which is dumb and is the reason why stages exist in the first place.

Learn your starters, learn your optimised combos..... Its not like characters start with a bunch of different starters anyways. And this would keep "optimized combos" down.

You're peacock, most of your combos are going to start with st.lp.
And to a lesser extent j.lp or j.mp and cr.mk

So learn a combo that works more or less from those...if you get confused as to where you are in a combo, end it early in a reset or super... Which is what people already do... Well its what i do at least.

 

[Dime]

I think the easy change is just lower undizzy. Right now optimized combos are going well over 400 because it goes off on chain starters. Why not lower it so it actually goes off closer to whatever it is now (350?) in a maxed combo. Try putting it at like 300 or 250 or something. This way shorter combos to resets are more worth it than the maxed out combos that just skim by undizzy. Maybe not but I personally wouldn't have an issue with just trying it.

Agreed. If the point is to stop long combos, then just drop undizzy levels... But it seems that the point is convoluted, ie to stop long combo into another long combo. One long combo being fine, but 2 being overkill...


Idk it just seems easier and more intuitive to make it so that long combos simply cease to exist rather than to have it be long combo into short combo into short combo into short combo... Or short combo into short combo into short combo into long combo...

 

[bsobotka]

no ips undizzy at 100

I don't know if this is 100% serious but the issue with no ips is that everyone would just do loops. I'm just saying this off the top of my head and it's probably not maximized, but just imagine if a painwheel only did c.lk c.mk s.hp lk buer [j.lk s.hp lk buer] x N until undizzy.

 

[Mao]

Learn your starters, learn your optimised combos..... Its not like characters start with a bunch of different starters anyways. And this would keep "optimized combos" down.

You're peacock, most of your combos are going to start with st.lp.
And to a lesser extent j.lp or j.mp and cr.mk

So learn a combo that works more or less from those...if you get confused as to where you are in a combo, end it early in a reset or super... Which is what people already do... Well its what i do at least.

The main issue with this logic is that I shouldn't have to optimise my combos from every possible starter and especially a newer player shouldn't have to wrap their head around this system either. Also what if my combo starts with j.lk now? It happens quite a bit. Does that mean I have to have already optimised that combo knowing im not allowed to press that button again (more or less). Having optimised combos from regular starter, throw, and unusual starters should be enough. Along with this, I don't just play peacock, I play filia/double to and filia is a whole other can of worms considering the amount of starters she can get (j.lp/j.lk/j.mp/j.hp/j.hk/s.lp/c.lk/c.mk to name a few and those are just the common ones) can you really expect me to optimise all that shit? This is why we have stages in the first place. /end rant

I think the easy change is just lower undizzy. Right now optimized combos are going well over 400 because it goes off on chain starters. Why not lower it so it actually goes off closer to whatever it is now (350?) in a maxed combo. Try putting it at like 300 or 250 or something. This way shorter combos to resets are more worth it than the maxed out combos that just skim by undizzy. Maybe not but I personally wouldn't have an issue with just trying it.

This is literally the best solution for how easy it is no joke.

 

[Spencer]

So I asked this earlier and didn't get a response, I figure I'll try one mor etime.

I'm not sure about the downside, but what about the current system and heavier combo scaling on the back end?

If it was severe enough, it would encourage more resets. Or is that too arbitrary?

 

[Dime]

So I asked this earlier and didn't get a response, I figure I'll try one mor etime.

I'm not sure about the downside, but what about the current system and heavier combo scaling on the back end?

If it was severe enough, it would encourage more resets. Or is that too arbitrary?

Mike doesnt want combos that go on forever but stop doing damage. More or less. Whether that allies to what you propose is anyone's guess but thats the reason for lack of harsh scaling.

@Chairman Mao

Yeah i do think that if you want OPTIMIZED COMBOS, you should work for it via memorization of starters and the combos that can be obtained from those starters.

And this has already happened. I already have to use different combos from different starters. The thing is that ive OPTIMIZED my combos for one overall combo that does near everything across all characters and starters... More or less. But i took rather big damage sacrifices in order to do that. If by your filia example you had to do the same... I dont think id be fussed at you needing to. In fact with filia having so many viable starters i think there SHOULD be a damage/memorisation penalty. Either you get great with the memorization and thusly increase your damage, or you say f the memorization in lieu of universality across all starters and characters... I chose the latter and my bnb topping out at 7.9k currently when painwheel is capable of 11k or more for extreme optimization, is an example. Fortune also kinda shits all over what you are saying cause she has to change up her bnbs for head distances, starters, head on and off, throw mid screen and throw corner...air confirms head on and off, otg confirms from assist head on and off... Etc etc etc

 

[Shnarfl]

I don't know if this is 100% serious but the issue with no ips is that everyone would just do loops. I'm just saying this off the top of my head and it's probably not maximized, but just imagine if a painwheel only did c.lk c.mk s.hp lk buer [j.lk s.hp lk buer] x N until undizzy.

said N would be 2, not exactly abusive imo

 

[Mike_Z]

Heavy damage scaling doesn't stop the opponent from doing something that takes 45 seconds if it exists - witness time-out infinites in some versions of Melty Blood.

Someone who shall remain nameless did have a good idea which has pluses of both sides, which I will be trying a variation of in the Beta straight away.

@Dime_x [edit yay posted early]
One does not HAVE to memorize different combos for different characters/situations if one does not want to. New players certainly don't have to, don't act like this is required.
Along with "I want the max damage in any given situation" comes per-character-per-situation memorization, even in games like KOF or MvC3 where the hitboxes are mostly very similar. If you want decent damage do your universal junk, if you want to learn that X thing only works on Bang and Hakumen then you do that. There is universal junk in SG just fine.

 

[Alstein]

I'd be elated if that's the case. Like I said I think IPS is fine how it is now. Not too restrictive (restrictive enough), but I don't see people 1-shotting without using a TON of resources (and how do you get those resources in the first place?)

You can one-shot in a 2 vs 2 with one bar. New IPS should make that cost 2-3 bars at least.

MikeZ, as someone who supports change, can I please ask you to hold off until the BB beta, because I think if you implemented it now, no one would bother because very few folks play the beta.

The BB beta will get folks playing, and you need to force this new system on folks for a while to get true feedback on it. I don't think you'll get useful feedback if only 10 people are playing, half of whom might not be able to trigger the new IPS.

 

[Age]

8.7k

c.lk c.mp hp kanchou
c.mp hp pummel horse
mk c.hp (stage 5)
j.hk
c.lp c.mp c.hp
j.lp(mash) j.hp
hk dp+hp qcf+pp

It's tougher than I thought since your starter chain will get tracked and trigger stuff at stage 5.

I think I ran into a weird thing with the current IPS while messing around. If I do c.lk c.mk hp kanchou, pummel horse it's stage 3 and stays stage 3 through my next ground chain.

corner 9.99k

c.lk c.mk f+hp battle butt
c.lk c.mk f+hp pummel horse
c.mp c.hp runstop
lp-lp mk c.hp
j.lk j.mk j.hp
j.lp (mash) j.hp
hk dp+hp qcf+pp

 

[Flotilla]

MikeZ, as someone who supports change, can I please ask you to hold off until the BB beta, because I think if you implemented it now, no one would bother because very few folks play the beta.

The BB beta will get folks playing, and you need to force this new system on folks for a while to get true feedback on it. I don't think you'll get useful feedback if only 10 people are playing, half of whom might not be able to trigger the new IPS.

That's a very flawed argument. What makes you think people who would play the endless beta SOLELY to test the beta IPS changes would somehow be less reliable feedback-wise than some few hundred people playing the beta because "oh cool Big Band is in it"? If anything, including beta IPS with Big Band will mean less feedback on beta IPS as attention shifts to Big Band.

Beyond that, very few folks play the endless beta only because it hasn't been used for much other than experimental bugfixes since Squigly came out. Beta IPS is something more than that, and the endless beta would undoubtedly get more attention if beta IPS were tested on it.

 

[Jason]

I think experimenting with 150 Dizzy would be fun but I wouldn't go any lower then that.

And at that point the damage scaling would probably have to be re-tweeked a bit.

 

[Alstein]

That's a very flawed argument. What makes you think people who would play the endless beta SOLELY to test the beta IPS changes would somehow be less reliable feedback-wise than some few hundred people playing the beta because "oh cool Big Band is in it"? If anything, including beta IPS with Big Band will mean less feedback on beta IPS as attention shifts to Big Band.

Beyond that, very few folks play the endless beta only because it hasn't been used for much other than experimental bugfixes since Squigly came out. Beta IPS is something more than that, and the endless beta would undoubtedly get more attention if beta IPS were tested on it.

I'm convinced there's a decent number of folks solid to good at this game, who don't post much/look at this site.

They'll know if Big Band is coming through Steam, they may not be motivated to look otherwise.

Judging by what was shown at SC, my guess is Big Band should be out this year, so it shouldn't be a long delay to test out the IPS. If you bring it in beforehand, that's fine- but it has to be part of the beta when BB rolls out. You need to see how it works at all levels of play.

I expect we're going to see more gameplay changes beyond IPS as well- as it might impact the balance.

 

[ukyo_rulz]

Just to say it, IPS didn't fail. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. It didn't do everything I (or others) wanted with respect to combo length, but it wasn't supposed to.

Whatever you say boss.

As a system it doesn't have any exceptions, the complete opposite of HSD.

Is this actually true? I thought Fortune's head was an exception. I'm sure I heard someone say that it was kept outside of IPS so that sandwich combos could work. I kinda have a vague recollection that I heard that from you. Am I wrong in this? WAS IT ALL A DREAM???

Turns out most players want "restricted otherwise" so I now have to figure out how to get to that without being annoying.

I'm sure you'll figure something out. I don't always agree with your methods but I still see you as a game designer who gets results.

 

[Mike_Z]

Fortune's head is ignored by IPS because it doesn't have a spawning state to act as a point of tracking - there's no action the point character does that corresponds to the head hitting you, so there isn't any good way to track when the attack was "made" relative to your chain:
- It could count on the frame you hit the button but then 1f differences, which make no difference to the combo otherwise and are very hard to avoid, might invalidate combos.
- It could have a completely separate IPS tracker with neutral states, but that is ridiculously confusing for the player to keep track of. I tried this since in theory it makes sense.
So the simpler solution is that it was created before your current combo and thus, like any other projectile created before the current combo, cannot trigger IPS (but can add undizzy if you're at that point).

In practice, the only thing it does is allow you to use a head attack to start stage 3 without that attack getting limited. If you consider that the head could just count as "chained off" whatever attack you did previously, IPS would not affect it any differently even if it were tracked and Fortune's chain starters would still be the only thing that matters.

 

[Darklightjg1]

You can one-shot in a 2 vs 2 with one bar. New IPS should make that cost 2-3 bars at least.

Who is only spending 1 bar in a 2v2 to do this and with what?