• As part of the relaunch of Skullheart, ALL previous threads have been archived. You can find them at the bottom of the forum in the Archives (2021) section. The archives are locked, so please use the new forum sections to create new discussion threads.

Possible new IPS

The overall most positive thing about a shorter combo system is that learning new combos for characters that are new to us, wont be nearly as hard as far as muscle memory is concerned. Ive been wanting to learn certain characters, but i dont feel like learning huge muscle memory combos, in order to do that.

Though that could just be my laziness, it does keep me away from learning certain characters though.
 
things are starting to get out of hand...
 
Spencer said:
Speaking for myself, long combos distract from resets when the reward for the long combo outweighs the need to reset. You can always play a reset based game if you'd like. Hell, you can only use j.lp if you want. But speaking optimally, I think the game favors long combos too much. With your average set up requiring around 1 reset or 2 confirms to end the game.

While neutral isn't the only thing that makes an FG great, since combos etc. are so easy to perform, I think we need to rely more heavily on the neutral game. At some point, we stop being impressed by 50+ hit combos because they aren't as hard as they seemed after your first month in game. It is the dance to get that confirm that is fun to watch.

Personally, I don't think long combos outweigh resets in any way besides being less risky since as it's been shown that successful resets actually will do more damage more quickly. Actually, in my own experience I'd say that a reset based game plan can actually be better since many resets will allow you to continue to apply pressure and get another chance at mix-up when many combos won't even allow you that. Actually if I recall correctly I remember Duckator once said something to the effect of finishing combos actually being detrimental to a persons game over going for resets, but I don't know if that was trolling or not. Though, it may be just me that thinks this. It's like Alstien said, different people put weight on different things.
 
Spencer said:
Speaking for myself, long combos distract from resets when the reward for the long combo outweighs the need to reset. You can always play a reset based game if you'd like. Hell, you can only use j.lp if you want. But speaking optimally, I think the game favors long combos too much. With your average set up requiring around 1 reset or 2 confirms to end the game.

While neutral isn't the only thing that makes an FG great, since combos etc. are so easy to perform, I think we need to rely more heavily on the neutral game. At some point, we stop being impressed by 50+ hit combos because they aren't as hard as they seemed after your first month in game. It is the dance to get that confirm that is fun to watch.

That's pretty much it- damaging combos eliminate the need the reset. This is why I'm not really a believe that the IPS change will solve the problem. I suspect it won't lower damage that much.

What I'd really love to see is more variation in damage scaling for first hits like we kinda got with the lats patch. That's kinda VF-esque. Not sure how that could work well in a 2d game (though we do have double snaps= death already)
 
Alstein said:
That's pretty much it- damaging combos eliminate the need the reset.

But there are currently no practical TODs and resets do more damage than long combos. So in most situations if you want to kill a character, you need to reset them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: destruction_adv
Icky said:
But there are currently no practical TODs and resets do more damage than long combos. So in most situations if you want to kill a character, you need to reset them.
As someone who falls for Icky's resets constantly, I can attest to them being much more effective than super long combos... even though he has those as well.
 
Alstein said:
suspect it won't lower damage that much.

Agreed there. I really don't think it'll do anything but change up the look of combos and maybe alter corner carry.
 
Icky said:
But there are currently no practical TODs and resets do more damage than long combos. So in most situations if you want to kill a character, you need to reset them.

About twice if you have an optimized combo.
 
Icky said:
But there are currently no practical TODs and resets do more damage than long combos. So in most situations if you want to kill a character, you need to reset them.

you cant block combos though.
 
Spencer said:
About twice if you have an optimized combo.
I'm assuming you mean you need two optimized combos to kill someone. Though I can say with confidence if you can manage two resets you'll also kill them, and much faster with them gaining less meter and with the right reset you even get to go back into pressure in the event of said reset failing. and these are resets revolving around my suboptimal 5.8k Valentine combo, if I actually knew one of her better combos it'd probably be one reset.

EDITL Looking at it now...I can see that your post could also mean you need two resets to kill with an optimized combo...in which case that's essentially the same thing I said in the other part of this post so, I agree...I think, I don't know.
 
Last edited:
Keep in mind that the shorter the combos get, the more telegraphed reset-setups become because there's less and less places in the combo to do the reset.
 
  • Like
Reactions: blufang
Jason said:
Keep in mind that the shorter the combos get, the more telegraphed reset-setups become because there's less and less places in the combo to do the reset.
Still doesn't stop it from being a silly 5-way mixup.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DARKNESSxEAGLE, winnie and IsaVulpes
I have nothing important to really contribute to this conversation so let's lay out the pros and cons of long combos vs resets (feel free to tell me stuff to edit in/take away):

Looooong Combos
+ Guaranteed damage (Unless your execution is off, not counting online)
+ (Potential) Corner carrying
+ If optimized can take from 60% - 100% health (depending on ratio, your team, and how much meter you have and are willing to spend)
- Builds quite a bit of meter for your opponent and not-so-quite-a-bit of meter for yourself
- Due to undizzy, you cannot do long combo into another long combo
+/- Typically sends the opponent to the corner, but it's also typically more difficult to restart pressure from an optimal position (EX: Opponent is in the corner and you call Bomber but they tech forwards. You can take advantage of this, though, so +/-)

Re- Rese-- Resets
+ Kills more quickly than long combos (1 or 2 correct guesses and that's a dead character)
+ Builds not-so-quite-a-bit of meter for your opponent and more than not-so-quite-a-bit of meter for yourself (I personally think meter is really important in this game so I like this point)
+ You can do short combo into a long combo, long combo > reset > short combo, etc.
+ 5-way mixups
+ Even if you fail, you can typically keep up pressure on your opponent
+? Keeps the opponent guessing
- Non-guaranteed damage (Read: risky)
- You have to read more into your opponents habits and/or guess more (Are they hitting buttons? Are they trying to reversal? Will he upback? Do they always block X?)
--/+ Super > Catheads DHC (Opponent has to spend two bars, but now you're the one being pressured. Some resets can deal with this by preventing your opponent from doing a super, though. Still a pain to deal with, though again this is why doing resets to hamper your opponent's meter gain is important as well.)
-? Can become obvious/Your opponent may recognize the reset and know how to escape it (Though this can be worked around, and again, X-way mixups)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: blufang, winnie, Icky and 3 others
Only thing I think you're missing is the con to resets being that you allow them a chance to reversal > DHC > reset the neutral game. This can still be avoided with the right mix up but its still a weakness to resets. This can kind of fit into reading your opponents habits but I think its to big of a problem to not mention.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dime, DARKNESSxEAGLE, Broseidon Rex and 2 others
I don't see the problem with that, you can't wakeup super every time. There are setups to avoid it (they aren't 5-way mixups but you're still in) Also unless they play Double, wakeup supers are punishable for the most part.
 
Or if they so much as have Double in their team (which you will find many people do because of the joys of butt thrust assist) and a minimum of 2 meter. Additionally head on Fortune's ground Blockbuster is pretty hard to punish (possibly unpunishable, but I've mostly only been using it against scrubs so I dunno). Also, y' know, having to block mid combo whenever your opponent has any meter at all when there's no particularly large guarantee they'll even go for a super reversal in the first place isn't great.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Additionally head on Fortune's ground Blockbuster is pretty hard to punish (possibly unpunishable, but I've mostly only been using it against scrubs so I dunno).
-11 with weird timing iirc. 'Easily' punishable if you practice doing so, but nobody does.
 
IsaVulpes said:
-11 with weird timing iirc. 'Easily' punishable if you practice doing so, but nobody does.
I feel ashamed. Time to hit training mode. I know its punishable but -11 seems a lot more than I thought.
 
Just mash dat throw.. Works everytime.

-tips from dime
 
IsaVulpes said:
'Easily' punishable if you practice doing so, but nobody does.

If you have to practice it, it ain't easy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: blufang
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Additionally head on Fortune's ground Blockbuster is pretty hard to punish (possibly unpunishable, but I've mostly only been using it against scrubs so I dunno).
It's just people being scrubby. All you have to do is mash jab. O_o
If you have to, PBGC the last few hits.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DARKNESSxEAGLE and View619
Yep, Fortune head-on ground super is a very easy jab punish...you don't even need to practice it. =/
 
Apart from the weirdness with cerebella's command run followups not being treated as enders the way I'd expect, this system is less restrictive than the undizzy in the actual release build.

Example combo for midscreen ~10.5k 1 bar

c.lk c.mp hp kanchou
(dp+mp)
(c.mk)
j.mp (j.hk)
(hk) assist runstop
(c.hp)
j.lp mash (j.hp)
(mp)
(j.mk)
lk c.mk f+hp (dp+throw)
c.lp c.mp hk dp+hp (qcf+pp)

The main concern for me is that dhcs will lead to full combos again (as far as I can tell). If ips carried over for dhcs then this would not be such a problem. However, this system does not feel intuitive to me and I don't have a good idea what methodology I should be using to optimise combos, it's largely trial and error.

If undizzy eventually gets replaced by some form of ips, I think it will become important to deal with post-dhc/tag meter gain in some way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dekillsage and Dime
KhaosMuffins said:
Gonna drop this here.
Glad to see that it doesn't seem to be limiting combo length or damage for most characters. Parasoul does seems to be hurting slightly, but I'm hoping someone finds something that works well for her soon.
 
IPS is supposed to carry over through DHCs if Undizzy stays gone (not sure whether it does currently, but it would).

And yeah this change does very little if anything. I spent some 3 hours trying around on stuff;
Pretty much all combos now look a bit prettier and lose out on neither damage nor length.

This is my first semi-serious Painwheel try and it's 1 second shorter and loses 400 damage compared to my old combo.

@Icky can you please go here and tell me why you want combos to stay at the current length (...or even get longer...................)? :\
 
Seems like comboing after a move that causes Stagger isn't being tracked properly in this new experimental IPS.

With Squigly

cr.lk > cr.mk > s.HPx2 > Stancel
cr.mk > s.HPx2 > Stancel
s.mp > s.HPx2 > Silver Cord

Next hit will cause IPS burst no matter what, if you combo off of the last chain qcf+HK or qcf+LK instead the combo works.

Similarly with comboing into Pummel Horse with Cerebella is also incorrectly triggering IPS.

IPS Tracks the move you did BEFORE the stagger as your ender for that chain. So in the example above IPS thinks you used HPx2 as your ender twice and breaks the combo but only when you chain into Silver Cord. Not any of her other moves.

Probably not going to bother experimenting with my combos unless this is fixed.

My preliminary thoughts - All it does is make combos more fancy and complicated. That's ok from a spectator's point of view but its not going to change the gameplay much if at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VIVIT_rv00
Combos feel super weird to do in this new IPS. And it's hard to understand/explain to people how they should proceed when coming up/trying new combos. Especially on the fly... This doesn't feel good, and double still does 9k+, painwheel kill people, etc.
 
It currently allows for full combo dhc into double filia painwheel huge damage cheese... bella is chunking me for around 13 k with dhc nto double... So, not low king this new ips at all cause the primary problem i had with ips before was the "dhc reset" into full combo and of course tag combos doing full combo as well.

This seems to bring that back in, in some form and its not particularly... Fun.
 
Dime_x said:
It currently allows for full combo dhc into double filia painwheel huge damage cheese... bella is chunking me for around 13 k with dhc nto double... So, not low king this new ips at all cause the primary problem i had with ips before was the "dhc reset" into full combo and of course tag combos doing full combo as well.

This seems to bring that back in, in some form and its not particularly... Fun.

Pretty sure that Mike has said if they remove dizzy then DHCs will have to do full IPS carryover again but for the moment it hasn't been changed.
 
Tested a little bit more, I adjusted my corner bnb with Val + Filia assist and it's still as damaging (200 less, 7.8k now) and as long as before. It's just more obnoxious to do some links and I have to switch the timings for different characters a bit more often.

But hey, there's only one j.hp now... ¬¬'
And it doesn't make the nice clickity-clackity sounds that sound like music.... which makes me very sad. ='(
 
Last edited:
I feel as though the new IPS changes serve to make the game more difficult without actually reducing combo length and damage or making the combos more interesting to watch as you are limiting players to 1 or 2 viable combo routes per character. The systems as they are in MDE reward players who take the time to optimize there combos with 1-2k extra damage while more casual players can still hammer out bnbs for around 7k. The current changes appear to only serve to widen the skill gap and significantly reduce the creativity of combos, but what do I know? I play solo Val.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joe, Jason, Oreo and 2 others
I don't see the point of this change at all............
 
winnie said:
I don't see the point of this change at all............
Point of the change is that combos change from
"Search your most damaging normal/special X, then do:
HP - X
MK HP - X
MP MK HP - X
LK MP MK HP - X
LP LK MP MK HP - X"
to
"Actually use the combo tools available to each character"

I'd /HOPE/ for the change to also be for shortening combolength and lowering damage,
But this is neither happening nor apparently actually wanted (MikeZ ples)
 
  • Like
Reactions: blufang
Losing out on even more damage, meter and corner carry with Valentine than the lower undizzy patch (which I also didn't like because it just made harder links for less damage... why would I want that?).
I'm doing even less damage with 2 loaded poisons in this beta patch than my normal Bnb does without poison in the other verson. Feels like I'm getting jipped having to revert to basically a day 1/week 1 combo just to get something that works and I'm not even sure if it's universal (i.e not char specific because of how awkardly some characters float). Edit: It's harder to bring down/restand floatier characters with this gimped version and more likely to drop... especially mid screen.

Not liking this IPS... before I even got really started like 3 seconds in with the old Valentine combo, I triggered IPS with a normal I hadn't even pressed yet... just because I ended with J. hp twice? Come on. I'm trying to bring them down/restand. I don't want them popping out and mashing (Filia's air super for example... that thing bothers me whenever I drop).

Not even sure how my Fortune combo ended up still working (it could be considered "long" too), but I'm really not pleased with the system gimping Valentine in this way. Her combo style (the way I like to play her) launches and brings the opponent back down a couple times. The key thing being I'm going for a universal way to get the things I posted above (damage, meter and position without the risk from a reset because people mash)

And as far as the combos being "shorter", I used a stopwatch and here are the compared TIMES posted along with the damage for what I experimented with (what ppl claim to be happy about, but I'm not because Valentine is losing out) These are all 2v2 combos:

-Fortune old combo: 15 seconds for 7.6k 1 bar. Still works so no time or damage change

-Valentine old combo: 18 seconds for 7.2k 1 bar no poison (8.8k with 2 poisons loaded).

-Valentine gimped combo: 15 seconds (same time as Fortune) for 7.1k with 2 poisons and 1 bar.

-Fortune to Val DHC old combo (uses 4 bars): 24 seconds for 12197-12304 damage (tch... scalpel super)

-Fortune to Val DHC gimped combo (still 4 bars so consider how much time supers add onto a combo): 21 seconds for 11317 damage

-Val to Fortune DHC old combo (4 bars and 3 poisons loaded): 23 seconds for 100% damage in a 2v2

-Val to Fortune DHC gimped combo (4 bars 3 poisons still): 22 seconds for 13375 damage (that's the difference between life and death if I happen to catch a raw tagged in character with those resources available for example).

The old combos were universal and pushed the Undizzy to the 350 limit. They all start from a light attack so no jump-in skews the damage. I thought they were fine considering the resources used. The gimped combos are just making Val's restands harder for less damage just to save 0-3 seconds of visual combo length in this system with her.

I don't know how this affects the other characters, but I never really minded what they can do to me from opening me up as long as I could do what I liked to them if I opened them up.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hopscawtch
This new IPS is starting to sound pointless now that it's not reducing combo damage or length much. The only purpose it serves is to remove loops, but that's not a big enough purpose to once again have people refurbish their combos. I still think something should be tested to see if things can be modified properly, the endless beta is there for such a purpose after all, but the route it's going down right now seems like this IPS change isn't what anyone other than people who only dislike loops wants or needs.

As for Mike's other small suggestion of the alternative IPS that tracks from stage 1, I can get 6k meterless out of it with Filia (it also works with the currently proposed ender tracking system), which is more than my usual BnB but it's also harder to pull of consistently. Obviously, more capable players will probably be able to squeeze out an extra 2k or so as I'm not exactly a master of execution.
 
Tested out some stuff with the beta. The Squigly combo I use mostly works. I had to change a stancel to an Arpeggio link and delay a jump section until after the super, but it seems to do more damage than the regular version. The link is just harder to do consistently. Peacock's midscreen damage is reduced by ~1K, but the corner combo/damage is the same. My biggest gripe is that I lose my Double specific combo. Also, the new IPS makes her basic air combo impossible.
 
Just keep in mind that this is an experiment for a reason. It's a bit too early to say that this new IPS change kills all of X character's damage and routes when we've only had our hands on this for a few hours. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but don't jump the gun just yet.

I personally prefer undizzy because long combo > reset > long combo is a problem, and because it doesn't limit combo creativity as much as the beta IPS (even though I did say it was too early to say that it kills a lot of routes), but we'll see how it works out.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: blufang
I just don't understand why MikeZ is changing this game from a "have it your way" style of play to a "do this or loose" style. Currently SkullGirls is one of the few fighting games where you can play however you want and still have a chance at winning, but the way this patch makes it look I don't know if creativity is rewarded as much as it is in the current version. This IPS change is only cutting down on combo creativity not encouraging it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joe, CaioLugon and Hopscawtch
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back