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Possible new IPS

Also wow, hitconfirms absolutely turn combos into non-things with this version
 
Tomo009 said:
Well, for one, Painwheel's Buer Thresher is triggering bursts on the last hit right now.

I'd call that more of a glitch which could be cleaned up.
 
IsaVulpes said:
To you and anyone else who likes this:
Do you like it because of the LENGTH, or because of what it does to your combos?
Mainly because of the combo length, but also because it's even easier to keep track of in my head than undizzy. This is especially important when counterhits and vials adjust the maximum combo length.

On the other hand, I completely agree that it heavily neuters combo creativity. I'd be just as happy if the undizzy system was tuned to give similar combo length limits to the 5 chain limit system.

For example (I DID NOT THINK ABOUT THESE EXACT NUMBERS VERY HARD): Lowering the undizzy limit to 150 for a normal combo, 225 for an assist counterhit or 300 for point char counterhit, and rewarding you with -150 undizzy for a DHC.
 
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Narroo said:
I'd call that more of a glitch which could be cleaned up.
yes, it clearly is haha.

This is a strange experiment though it is just that I guess.
Seems if you don't need OTG for a DHC, Painwheel 2LK > 2MK > 2HP xx fly j.MK confirm is pretty much always a good idea
 
NOX said:
I hadn't thought of anything you just brought up, and even now that I do, it doesn't bother me much if the tradeoff is more time spent in neutral.
If the question is "Do we stay at SQG combo length, or do we put this in", then I'm on your side.
If the question is "We shorten combo length, how do we do it", then I don't like this experiment at all and would rather take the last one (+50% Undizzy on repeated stuff thingie), tweaking it a bit

(EG: [NUMBERS NOT THOUGHT OUT] Lower Undizzy limit to 250, CH removes 100 Undizzy, Undizzy can burst in Stage3 etc)
 
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Damage is still sorta there if you look for it though, Painwheel can hit 7k with her eyes closed still. Probably will effect some characters far worse though, I haven't really found anything much over 6k for Fillia yet and I've lost most of my reset points there.
 
Solo Bella can still get 11k on light characters, but it's a tad harder. She can get 10.8k (not enough to kill v2 characters, like anything over 11k) on Parasoul and Cerebella. For two meters and midscreen, like last time. I forgot to check the Double difference. We're still on the "Extra" hitstun change, right?

I don't like some of the things this prevents, though. Like, how should me doing a s.hp, runstop influence me doing a c.hp launcher? That's in no way a loop. If it has to be this strict I guess I get it, but still. It also feels like this won't add much variety to combos, everyone will just figure out the one that does the most damage and then either do that, or do more creative short combos and then resets. That's exactly the same as it used to be, but now the people who want decent damage without a reset won't have the choice of going for something a little easier but less damaging. There's a tiny bit of variety, but there won't be much when everyone figures out how to get that damage, I don't think.

That said, I like the idea of this extra Undizzy/Drama, but maybe it should be toned down just a bit. Like only add that extra undizzy to the next chain instead of until the combo ends?
 
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@Zidiane That's from yesterday? Today is just 5 Chains max.

Zidiane said:
I don't like some of the things this prevents, though. Like, how should me doing a s.hp, runstop influence me doing a c.hp launcher? That's in no way a loop.
How should Filia doing [s.HP > j.HP xx AD, j.LP j.HK] influence her doing [c.MP > j.LP xx Hairball]? That's in no way a loop.
.. This has always been the case.

That's exactly the same as it used to be, but now the people who want decent damage without a reset won't have the choice of going for something a little easier but less damaging.
Aside from the fact of it *NOT* being "exactly the same as it used to be", can you give me proof for this choice not existing anymore?
 
IsaVulpes said:
@Zidiane That's from yesterday? Today is just 5 Chains max.
Oh wow, okay. Didn't think there'd be a new experiment a day later.

How should Filia doing [s.HP > j.HP xx AD, j.LP j.HK] influence her doing [c.MP > j.LP xx Hairball]? That's in no way a loop.
Sorry. Meant repeated loop. Like, doing c.hp, j.hp, s.lk, c.hp, j.mk, j.hp, s.lp, c.hp, j.lk, j.mk, j.hp, that's the kind of repetitive loops that Mike seemed to want less of. And I don't see how doing a runstop should have anything to do with that. And if your example of Filia's two different launchers is something that should be lessened, then Bella wouild have to choose each combo between c.mk, j.mp, j.hk and c.hp, j.lp mash, j.hp. And that makes no sense.

Aside from the fact of it *NOT* being "exactly the same as it used to be", can you give me proof for this choice not existing anymore?
People will do as much damage as they can, won't they? If they aren't going to go for a reset, they'll do as much damage as they can. If they're going to go for a reset, it's smart to do it before Undizzy starts to build so that your followup combo can do more damage. I don't know what you want me to explain. All this change looks like it'll do will change people's bnbs a little. Or... the change from yesterday.
 
I like the overall combo length right now but it feels like the damage is too low. If overall damage went up by about 15-20% and kept the combos the same length that would be great.

Also, limiting number of chains instead of reducing the dizzy limit seems like a weird choice but one I'm willing to live with. You get weird things cropping up like doing silver cord into daisy pusher eating an entire chain or IPS bursting on linked supers and things like that.
 
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I think triggering IPS on super or snapback is very weird
 
Zidiane said:
Sorry. Meant repeated loop. Like, doing c.hp, j.hp, s.lk, c.hp, j.mk, j.hp, s.lp, c.hp, j.lk, j.mk, j.hp, that's the kind of repetitive loops that Mike seemed to want less of. And I don't see how doing a runstop should have anything to do with that. And if your example of Filia's two different launchers is something that should be lessened, then Bella wouild have to choose each combo between c.mk, j.mp, j.hk and c.hp, j.lp mash, j.hp. And that makes no sense.
Uh, I guess my post wasn't really clear, sorry.
Try doing the Filia thing in CURRENT IPS (as in, on the mainbuild - no Ender tracking, no Loop protection, etc) in one combo.
It doesn't work. Why?
Because the starter tracking sees the j.LP after s.HP>j.HPxxAD, and also the j.LP after c.MP.

s.HP
- j.HP xx AD, j.LP j.HK
c.LK s.HP
- j.MK(1) xx Airball, j.MP
s.LK c.MP
- AD j.LP

This is *CLEARLY* not a loop, yet it causes a burst due to the reuse of the j.LP. That's always been the case.
It's in the nature of things that some non-problematic things also get worse (eg Parasoul [c.HP > j.MP xx Toss, j.LK j.MP] is also not exactly looping, but getting a hit)
If you ignore the loop protection and just see it as "Combo shortening", then it quickly becomes evident why doing c.HP (main launcher) also affects s.HP-Runstop (main other combo path).

I don't know what you want me to explain.
"Now the people who want decent damage without a reset won't have the choice of going for something a little easier but less damaging."
You're acting like this change kills all alternate combos and forces some super hard links down your throat if you want to do anything. Which just isn't the case.

All this change looks like it'll do will change people's bnbs a little.
In the way it was implemented? Yes. (See also: http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php?threads/possible-new-ips.716/page-17#post-23465 )
In the way it /could be/ implemented - Eg lower Undizzy limit, earlier Undizzy bursting, slower deterioration, stuff? No, it will make them a good batch shorter (without really attacking creativity).
 
Mike_Z said:
I hope you're kidding. A system that invalidates your combo if you WALK for an extra few frames somewhere, or if you do a chain slower? No thanks. It was bad in CT, it's bad in CP. And I don't mean inelegant, I mean BAD, as in, does not solve the initial problem in an approachable way for all characters, or indeed sometimes doesn't solve it at all, and introduces extra problems in addition to being completely opaque to the player. Time- and damage-related limiting systems both have the same shortcoming - they don't care what you did in your combo in any way, so character differences and execution differences have disproportionate effects.
(Chain-related, while not elegant at all, at least takes into account what you're doing.)
Mike Z, what do you think of the changes to the combo system in Under Night In-Birth EXE Late? I know the game isn't out yet, but it has reduced combo length, compared to Vanilla version. Most of the Arcade matches for the game have combos that are like 15-20 hits on average. Would you apply a similar system like that to IPS?
 
Yeah... I dont like it.
 
IsaVulpes said:
If you ignore the loop protection and just see it as "Combo shortening", then it quickly becomes evident why doing c.HP (main launcher) also affects s.HP-Runstop (main other combo path).
I guess I misunderstood the meaning of the change, I thought it was targeting loops specifically. Combo shortening works. Still don't like it, though :p

You're acting like this change kills all alternate combos and forces some super hard links down your throat if you want to do anything. Which just isn't the case.
I don't know about other characters, but for bella it seems like there's going to be one or two optimal ways to start combos, and then to avoid activating the extra Undizzy there's only so many ways to continue from that. I didn't get super in depth so I could be missing something (and the builds gone, so I don't feel like writing everything down), but it looked like the difference between doing "optimal combo" and "something not optimal" was like 3.5k. We're testing the next thing, so I'm not sure what Mike's opinion on the extra undizzy is, but I wanted to let my feelings about it be known.

In the way it was implemented? Yes. (See also: http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php?threads/possible-new-ips.716/page-17#post-23465 )
In the way it /could be/ implemented - Eg lower Undizzy limit, earlier Undizzy bursting, slower deterioration, stuff? No, it will make them a good batch shorter (without really attacking creativity).
I don't know how anything could be implemented yet, so I'm just going to test stuff on new builds when they come out. I'll leave the future speculating to you guys for now.
 
Just tried some stuff on the "5 chains" build. Got about 8k with Cerebella for one meter midscreen, can get 9.5k in the corner for two meters.

This one is a pretty big change. Not sure if I want it to stay... at least, not quite like it is. Maybe make the first chain not count to your total, or not make your super activate IPS, or make super give back one chain (if you have none, kinda like snapback gives back an OTG), cause it's almost like solo you don't even want to use your meter in combos now, just save them for whatever else.

Also, if it stays, can it get a different color hitspark?

That's my opinions on this one.
 
I never really cared much for combo length after vanilla, though it is a shame that this experiment gets rid of some of the fancy stuff. I do, however, like how the shorter, less damaging combos do kind of speed up the game flow in that you're spending less time in combos and more time putting pressure on and making reads on the opponent in resets. I like resets. Also, being rewarded for counter hits is really really nice as well. (I still prefer the experiment right before this one, though. That managed to take combos down to a good length and still allowed for some creativity.)

As for damage, I'm kind of curious as to what you all think is a good amount of damage for a single combo to do. I get 7k with Fortune, 7.6k on counter hit, and it seems a few other characters are getting 7k midscreen as well with one bar. That's 50% of a character's life, even more if you spend meter so that's still two good hits needed for a kill in even ratios or ratios that give a damage multiplier. It does make solos tougher to kill, though.

I think MDE with the assist scaling change is really all the game needs right now, but doing these experiments is cool, and if one of them becomes final in a later patch, then that is also cool. (And if the endless beta becomes something that is constantly changing that we can forever mess around with, then that would be super cool)
 
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With all of these changes, what is actually in game and in beta?
 
Spencer said:
With all of these changes, what is actually in game and in beta?
These are all experiments to see what changes, if any, should be implemented in the real game based on what people like and what is good for the game's future. None of these changes are set in stone, just experiments.
 
@Mike_Z , couldn't you make some sort of menu where we can choose which combo restrictions to use, so that we can see what works the best for each one?
Also, adding these options when creating a lobby so people can test their own IPSs on real matches.
 
50%-60% 1 v 1 for a single meter is fine imo. That's a huge chunk of life right there, even if it's not TOD or close to 100%.
 
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With pw the most im able to get out of this chain limit midscreen is about 6950:

Cr.lk,cr.mk,cr.hp (unfly otg) cr.mk,st.hk,j.lp,j.lk,j.mk,j.hp (land) st.lk,cr.mk,st.hp xx lp stinger, st.lp,cr.lk,cr.mp,F+hk (4) lk buer xx deathcrawl.

Just in case anyone wants to beat it or try midscreen for 1 meter and no assist extensions?
 
Dime_x said:
With pw the most im able to get out of this chain limit midscreen is about 6950:

Cr.lk,cr.mk,cr.hp (unfly otg) cr.mk,st.hk,j.lp,j.lk,j.mk,j.hp (land) st.lk,cr.mk,st.hp xx lp stinger, st.lp,cr.lk,cr.mp,F+hk (4) lk buer xx deathcrawl.

Just in case anyone wants to beat it or try midscreen for 1 meter and no assist extensions?

Hm, to be fair, for a mid-screen combo off a crouching light, 7,000 is a lot compared to most other games, even with Death Crawl there. Then again, this is not another fighting game, this is skullgirls.
 
Didn't get to try out the other experiments, but this version in particular sucks hard. Any sort of fun or out of the box links get punished for adding a chain. Combos are definitely shorter, but combos and burst baits will eventually all look and feel the same, which is just as boring as a long combo.
 
I've not played it, but how does it compare to live then?

Combos all look and feel the same now, but are longer, no?
 
@Spencer
The real game is the same as it was except for bugs being fixed (and I guess meter carrying over in 1v1 but that's on the way to Downs). All experiments are just in the beta.

@Tomo009
I can't get Buer to trigger IPS when chained into (i.e. 4 chains -> blah s.HP xx LK Buer works, and you can even cancel to Death Crawl fine.
So I'm forced to assume you're linking into it rather than chaining...?

@tikwid
Combos and burst baits will eventually all look the same anyway, or at least be chosen from a set based on difficulty. Resets won't, but don't mistake the game being unexplored for variety in the future.

@whoever asked about having an option for various systems to test
That's a LOT more work, and probably won't happen. Sorry. Comparing one-at-a-time to letting you pick is like going out for milk and remembering you also need to buy a car on your way home.

I feel like I should point something out:
Everyone who says "I can't find damage in this one" should notice that everyone else is saying that also.
It's not that 7k means your char is crap and you're getting hit by 11k from your opponent, it's that 7k is apparently the NEW NORMAL under this system.

Whether you like that or not is separate, but I'll say I like 50% being the same-ratio norm off a cr.LK for 1 bar, as opposed to 75-80%.
And the fact that double or triple overhead hitconfirms mean you can do less afterward.

I agree with this punishing single-move links being a negative, but I like the length. A lot. Maybe even 2 attacks shorter. :^P
The equivalent under Undizzy would be it starting at Stage 2 and probably giving you LMH x4's value (260) plus like half another L. Maybe we can try that.
But this version is a lot easier to understand, as well.
[edit] This version probably gives you MORE length than undizzy that caps to the 'average' length for this version, since chain count ignores how long each chain is.
Maybe just single-move chains counting as half? Lawl.
 
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Hey Mike, is there a way to let linked supers on stage 5 bypass the chain limit?
 
Yeah 5-7 (on CH) chains is pretty limiting (I think I use up to 10 in MDE with Valentine and 8 with Fortune with my regular bnbs before sparking undizzy).

Um about the Lvl 3 green vials: from what I can tell, even on counterhit, won't get Valentine more damage than Lvl 3 purple vials. I got 7.6k with the green and 8.9k with the purple.

My DHCs took a big hit, losing over 2k in damage with the alternatives (difference between life and death man :( ) and makes it harder to try to use the purple poison with Val in an optimal DHC (non-counterhit) combo (the green doesn't lead to as much damage).

I'm guessing DHC supers also count as another chain because I triggered the burst by DHCing during one of the combos I was testing.

Also counterhit would be kind of hard to spot mid-match and then instantly make a mental note that you can do 2 more chains right as you're going through your combo. I never really count the chains because it varies per hit-confirm situation so I think this is too much to keep track of for people who want to make the most out their confirm during a match.
 
@Darklightjg1
People keep track of a single move CH in SF4 to do different links, I think it's possible in SG with the flash and everything.

@Mwisk
Maybe, maybe not. Doing that would give back a bunch of other stuff, though.
 
I got 10.something~k earlier today with Bella (it was somewhere around 10.3 or 10.8, I don't remember exactly what). Two meters and only in specific places. The most I seemed able to get midscreen was 8.5k for one meter, and 9.8k for two meters.

Also, can s.mp (stagger), hp lnl not be counted as two chains?
 
Mike_Z said:
Whether you like that or not is separate, but I'll say I like 50% being the same-ratio norm off a cr.LK for 1 bar, as opposed to 75-80%.

What about for 1v1 matches? (I forget how much damage combos do in 1v1's, it's been awhile since I've played. Think I'll boot up the game to try out the changes.)

Also, aside from damage, what about combo time? Skullgirls has some pretty long lasting combos; before the squiggly patch there was a good 60 second combo that started off a light punch, I think. Obviously, most combos are not that long, but they're pretty long compared to most other games. In terms of time, what would you say would be the idea length you're going for. (Sorry if you've already answered this, but I've been away for awhile.)
 
Mike_Z said:
@Darklightjg1
People keep track of a single move CH in SF4 to do different links, I think it's possible in SG with the flash and everything.

A counterhit text message that pops up to go along with the flash (and sticks around until you drop the combo) would be nice but not totally necessary. Once people get the hang of it I don't think people will have too much trouble identifying the counterhit spark.
 
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The Counter Hit message sticking around during your CH combos is a great idea. Everyone can keep track of a CH combo like that.
 
@Mike_Z This is a faster paced fighter than SF4 with more mobility options and mechanics to worry about for even getting stray hits, let alone a counter hit. Also the setups for counter hits in SF4 are way more deliberate in the way people fish for them and a bit more obvious when the counter hit occurs. The counter hit message along with the hitstop in the slower-paced SF4 is easier to notice than the red flash on the 1st hit of a chain you may have already started to combo from in SGs.

But maybe I also feel like that because I've been paying it a lot longer and I'm a lot more familiar with the engine and frame data of that series, so I can tell when people are fishing for CH way more often.

Also, in SF4 you only get the extra frame advantage for the next hit and that's all you need to worry about as you continue. In SGs it's something you'd need to have in mind 4-5 chains later and possibly change your entire combo path if your optimized regular 5 chain BnB is drastically different than what your optimized 7 chain BnB would be. It's also something to keep in mind if you decide to DHC and add 2 more potential chains while subtracting however many chains you already used from 5 or 7 and I'm still not sure if a DHC/super counts as a new chain itself.
 
It's easy to confirm if you've got a counter hit in Skullgirls. Every time I see the red flash I think to myself "Yay that was a counterhit, too bad that doesn't really mean anything yet".
 
CH as something that affects what combo you are able to do is something ive ALWAYS been against.

The reason is two fold:

1. Being color blind (partially) its just harder for me to react to changes in color rather than movement, its not that i cant, its just that my percentage of being able to on the fly as quick as is needed, generally fails.

2. I kinda see it as balance via execution, depending on how fast one has to react to the counterhit and change their combo. In 3s i was never able to do the 1 hit hitconfirms. I simply couldnt do it, and i know that a lot of people cant. In sg though since the extra chains come into play at the end of the combo, that gives ALOT of time for the comboer to verify ch spark and add on 2 more chains... But what if the person cant actually add in 2 more chains unless they switch up the beginning of their combo? And at that point we come back into balance via execution or the characters that have the best ability to easily switch between combos late into their starter.

Imho, just keeping the ch as a damage pump is great or as a damage modifier, because both are zero sum and dont favor types of players or types of characters or types of combos.

Sg's brilliant balancing is one of the things i love most about the game, but if more balancing via execution comes around the balancing will suffer imho.
 
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Then what if counter hits had a more distinct sound from regular hits? That's what most other games do, and sound is easier to react to than visuals.
 
Just do it BB style where you hear the constant "Counter!" to give you the subtle hint that you confirmed a counter hit.
 
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Make it really flashy and make the attacking character give a counter voice.

I bet if Leviathan teased your ass while you got counter hit you would stop pressing buttons.
 
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