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Possible new IPS

Erreip199 said:
How come no one has mentioned Moves hitstun/properties yet?

I feel the combo system in SG (without considering undizzy/ IPS) is just way too open and easy to exploit, most special moves allow chains to restart and loop around as long as a normal in the string is changed to not trigger IPS.
Err, it's probably not a good idea to try to mess around with hitstun too much or anything that will completely change up how the game works. That'd be way too much work and it most likely won't bring about the result that you think it will.

I know I contributed to this, but let's move the DP topic somewhere else. I'm pretty sure there's an assist thread on here to discuss that. Edit: This one: http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php?threads/dealing-with-assists.662/

Can we at least discuss what we like about the current beta so we know what "works" at least? Counterhits, the undizzy limit, when undizzy starts, etc.

As for what's possible in the current beta, here's stuff for Fortune:
 
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Sorry I haven't read the changes because
does undizzy start at stage 3 or 5 now?
Also I personally don't like the idea of counter hits leading to more undizzy. I would like slightly more undizzy(or stun idk what we're calling it) to work with, and have counterhits give you a slight damage boost on your first chain. idk how that would work out tbh

When it comes to bella nothings really different except for my corner damage. Midscreen is still 9.7k with 1 meter(I think) which is pretty high compared to the rest of the cast atm.

When it comes to double you can still do 2 barrel loops, or age's double combo(shortened). I haven't experimented with much else because
but her average damage is like 6.9-7.2k(I think can't check myself atm) so she's fine.

Give Cerebella a teleport
 
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Right now judging from a few games in the beta, it's pretty close to a sweetspot. It's a bit more than I'd like, which means it may have to be tightened further down the road (like the Eliza update)- but it's fine for now.

I love the concept behind all the other changes, though I wish CH meant more, and wouldn't mind some special CH's - just like 3d games.
 
dekillsage said:
Sorry I haven't read the changes because
does undizzy start at stage 3 or 5 now?
Also I personally don't like the idea of counter hits leading to more undizzy. I would like slightly more undizzy(or stun idk what we're calling it) to work with, and have counterhits give you a slight damage boost on your first chain. idk how that would work out tbh

When it comes to bella nothings really different except for my corner damage. Midscreen is still 9.7k with 1 meter(I think) which is pretty high compared to the rest of the cast atm.

Stun is set to 240 starting at stage 3 in the current beta.

How are you getting 9.7k for 1 meter? I think the most I got was about 9k with an assist.
 
I might not be getting 9.7k for 1 meter. But this is what I do
cr.lk, cr.mp, st.hp, Kanchou
Devil Horns, cr.mk
j.mp, j.hk
st.HP, pummel horse
cr.mp, st.hk, cerecopter super
st.lk, st.mk, st.hk, cerecopter
It either does 9.7 or 9.2 idk. My memory is the worst
 
dekillsage said:
I might not be getting 9.7k for 1 meter. But this is what I do
cr.lk, cr.mp, st.hp, Kanchou
Devil Horns, cr.mk
j.mp, j.hk
st.HP, pummel horse
cr.mp, st.hk, cerecopter super
st.lk, st.mk, st.hk, cerecopter
It either does 9.7 or 9.2 idk. My memory is the worst

Just tried it and it is 9.7k, only problem is the devil horns > c.MK part is character specific.
 
Also, couldn't you shake out of Pummel Horse?
 
RemiKz said:
Just tried it and it is 9.7k, only problem is the devil horns > c.MK part is character specific.
it's only weight specific, it works on everyone but heavies
 
RemiKz said:
Just tried it and it is 9.7k, only problem is the devil horns > c.MK part is character specific.

Works on everyone but bella soul double, but for them I use st.hk -> hornet bomber -> pummel horse. idk the damage on that 3lazy2findout

or just straight up cr.mk instead of going for devil horns first.


VIVIT_rv00 said:
Also, couldn't you shake out of Pummel Horse?

Shaking out wont prevent you from getting hit by cr.mp. It will save you from any grab attempt tho
 
Blandaid and I just did a long set, and we're both reset heavy players while still incorporating pretty optimal combos. Just so you can see what the beta changes are like in action.
In all honesty, I went from hating stage 3 undizzy to just disliking it since the deterioration is so quick that I rarely ever saw undizzy trigger no matter how many resets I did (I'd still like to see how this is affecting everyone else, though). I still dislike how it hurts throw resets, though. Especially air throw resets like Val's since she has to spend a bar to continue onwards and she's at stage 3 instantly. I guess the game feels less single-player now, though I never really thought of MDE as being "largely single-player" but that's just me.
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
Blandaid and I just did a long set, and we're both reset heavy players while still incorporating pretty optimal combos. Just so you can see what the beta changes are like in action.

That looks a lot more like a game I want to play.

I like how frequent you guys slipped out of resets which created more dynamic back and forth looks to be a ton of fun.

Now if only school would end so I could have some time to sit down and play... I'm getting rusty QQ
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
Blandaid and I just did a long set, and we're both reset heavy players while still incorporating pretty optimal combos. Just so you can see what the beta changes are like in action.
http://www.twitch.tv/isavulpes/b/479500514
In all honesty, I went from hating stage 3 undizzy to just disliking it since the deterioration is so quick that I rarely ever saw undizzy trigger no matter how many resets I did. I still dislike how it hurts throw resets, though. Especially air throw resets like Val's since she has to spend a bar to continue onwards and she's at stage 3 instantly. I guess the game feels less single-player now, but I never really thought of MDE as being "largely single-player" but that's just me.

Nice to see the game still looks fun to play (though I only watched the first few matches.)
 
dekillsage said:
Sorry I haven't read the changes because
does undizzy start at stage 3 or 5 now?
Also I personally don't like the idea of counter hits leading to more undizzy. I would like slightly more undizzy(or stun idk what we're calling it) to work with, and have counterhits give you a slight damage boost on your first chain. idk how that would work out tbh

Well I do like the idea of couterhits giving you more damage, because recovery frames of moves count as counterhit state.

In the current build where any random light attack does almost the same damage as a full punish its almost an incentive to mash since you know getting hit by a mixup will result in the exact same damage as getting punished for doing a random super. In the beta, punish combos are a bit more painful then a random hit confirm so it keeps people more honest.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Blandaid and I just did a long set, and we're both reset heavy players while still incorporating pretty optimal combos. Just so you can see what the beta changes are like in action.
In all honesty, I went from hating stage 3 undizzy to just disliking it since the deterioration is so quick that I rarely ever saw undizzy trigger no matter how many resets I did (I'd still like to see how this is affecting everyone else, though). I still dislike how it hurts throw resets, though. Especially air throw resets like Val's since she has to spend a bar to continue onwards and she's at stage 3 instantly. I guess the game feels less single-player now, though I never really thought of MDE as being "largely single-player" but that's just me.
Maybe it was blandaid's awesome filia, but I loved this set. Perhaps the new system won't be so bad, after all.
 
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Idk... I'm not a fan of what I saw in that video. It's absolutely nothing against khaosmuffins or bland, it just seemed like the old sg but with a lot shorter combos and less damage.. Meaning that one hit and the opponent was in a blender, there was still very little neutral. They just traded combos till one of them died, or khaos would do a bunch of short combos into death... It seemed ALOT more flowchart than sg as it is now... Which is, disturbing. I mean I knew that they were going to reset EVERY TIME they touched each other...there was no reason not to.

Dhc? Only for a kill and never for damage...same as regular sg except that now it seemed like it took like 4-5 resets on average to get to the point where dhc would kill...

Idk it just looked all around bad to me. The neutral was no more on display in that set than it is in the regular game.

The one good thing I saw, which is a really good thing. Was that the opponent had a lot more opportunities to fight back after getting hit.
Unfortunately those opportunities were largely squandered, or were them selves turned into combos... So it looked like trading combos when things were even... Anyway it went it didn't seem dynamic at all once a hitconfirm was established.

This could of course be because of the nature of the teams (filia and fortune)... But idk.

All in all it felt and looked to me like old sg, but with more trades via combos going back and forth, and with the games taking longer to get to the point... If that makes any sense.

The lack of throws was quite disheartening as well.
 
Jason said:
Well I do like the idea of couterhits giving you more damage, because recovery frames of moves count as counterhit state.

In the current build where any random light attack does almost the same damage as a full punish its almost an incentive to mash since you know getting hit by a mixup will result in the exact same damage as getting punished for doing a random super. In the beta, punish combos are a bit more painful then a random hit confirm so it keeps people more honest.

It depends on how you weigh the risk reward. In MDE if I make the decision to throw out dynamo I'm well aware that I will die if my opponent read it or did a reset that was made to beat that option. Taking more damage for it probably wont change anything when it comes to making the decision to committing to a reversal.

I'll watch this khaos set l8r. tbh I'm not interested in how fortune plays this game more than I am interested in what the vals are doing.
 
CaioLugon said:
Maybe it was blandaid's awesome filia, but I loved this set. Perhaps the new system won't be so bad, after all.
I know i'm stealing some of his stuff (cr.mp resets and cross up updo was really cool)
 
Question, if i do the same combo into reset into another combo in 2 different scenarios and in one of them i do my reset several frames faster and undizzy doesnt drop as much, does that mean that my follow up combo might trigger undizzy in an earlier chain and be pretty similar to what happened to the most recent iteration of BlazBlue?
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Blandaid and I just did a long set, and we're both reset heavy players while still incorporating pretty optimal combos. Just so you can see what the beta changes are like in action.

Didn't see the whole video, but I wasn't really impressed by what I saw. It looked fine, but I was told things had improved by leaps and bounds since I last played and it doesn't look all that different to me.
 
ukyo_rulz said:
Didn't see the whole video, but I wasn't really impressed by what I saw. It looked fine, but I was told things had improved by leaps and bounds since I last played and it doesn't look all that different to me.

What were you looking for out of curiosity?
 
Spencer said:
What were you looking for out of curiosity?

Dramatically shorter combos and much more emphasis on neutral, mostly. It looks like an alright evolution of the game, but I was hoping for a revolution.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
More footage

Much better, game doesn't look so terrible here. Perhaps it was just the. Teams being used in your set that made it so...or perhaps it was the fact that neither you nor bland really called out predictable resets with mashed supers... Much. Whereas in this set, mashed supers call out the predictable resets a lot and THAT seems to lead to more neutral and less combo swapping/trading.

I still don't like the look of the super short combos combined with the mostly dash and double jump spammy neutral... But that's just me I guess.
 
ukyo_rulz said:
Dramatically shorter combos and much more emphasis on neutral, mostly. It looks like an alright evolution of the game, but I was hoping for a revolution.
Yeah I can't see that happening any time soon. Some people like doing long combos, some people like short combos. As it is now it's more of a compromise between the two. As for neutral, the game is just really momentum-heavy and it'll most likely always be like that since the original goal for Skullgirls was supposed to be a mix of X-men vs Street Fighter and Marvel 2.
 
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@KhaosMuffins

Did Sev say what he thought of the changes?

He's always been the guy that milked every inch of a combo for damage, no?

If that is the case, I'd be super interested in his opinion on the changes.
 
Hi.

Obviously I'm not a fan of this version, but as always, I'll optimize and figure out stuff.
If anything, I'd like meter scaling to be looked at now that the option to do long combos isn't even there.
 
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severin said:
Hi.

Obviously I'm not a fan of this version, but as always, I'll optimize and figure out stuff.
If anything, I'd like meter scaling to be looked at now that the option to do long combos isn't even there.

Yeah I think meter needs to be rescaled in a big way (I may be biased as a PW player).

What kind of damage are you getting?
 
Sev being sad makes me sad, but after watching the matches from the beta I can't help but instantly enjoy this game more. I think meter scaling might only need minor changes though, I don't see myself ending combos with supers that put them full screen unless it kills anymore so meter will be easier to maintain.
 
Various thoughts on several IPS topics, summary at the bottom.

The current undizzy rules may be too lenient towards resets after long combos (as Isa Vulpes suggests). It may be too strict towards resets after short combos (as KhaosMuffins and others suggest). The first issue can be addressed by making burst trigger more quickly when the opponent has max stun (Stage 3/Stage 2/After 1 chain) or by making undizzy decay slower (or decay more slowly when stun is above the limit, or add a slight pause before decay begins). The second issue can be addressed by setting the onset of stun accumulation at Stage 5, and possibly compensating by setting undizzy limit back to 200 or something. My ideal version has late stun accumulation, early burst trigger, and slower stun deterioration.

I would appreciate a visible undizzy meter, but Mike has said he does not want to see one in the game. I can see 2 possible reasons for this:
  1. It would be a lot of UI work to implement this feature.
  2. It would change the feel of the game for the worse.
I can certainly understand how number 1 would be a factor (although I find it weird how Mike also said he wanted to steal the frame data bar from Pocket Rumble, a feature I wholeheartedly endorse by the way). I can see how number 2 might be an issue (although I'm not convinced of it), but since Mike was willing to try other changes he didn't agree with at Salty (CiscoKid's bomb cancel suggestion, moving Parasoul's f.MP to b.MP), I would think an undizzy bar is a worthwhile experiment. Except of course for problem number 1. Once the changes settle down some more and players get a feeling for the undizzy limits without an indicator, maybe the beta gets a prototype undizzy bar that looks like the hitstun bars in training mode, hopefully that's not too much work to implement.

Turning our attention now to the Prevention of Infinites, I'm glad that Squigly's cr.HP infinite was removed, but I'm not so keen on how it was removed. The type of exploit it demonstrated (an indefinitely repeatable sequence of moves happening completely out of range of a burst) is still in principle possible under the current system, and a clear understanding of the principles of a burst safe infinite makes it easier to find others in the rest of the cast, including the upcoming characters. Removing burst safe infinites by hand has the same costs and limitations as removing regular old infinites by hand, whereas a systematic approach relieves the developer of that burden and increases their flexibility in designing movesets. I suggest tracking which moves have touched the defender while they were in IPS stage 6 (burstable stage), then moving them up to stage 7 (a new stage, where every burst is safe, same as if the burst was blocked or a projectile triggered the burst) when they get touched by a move with stage 6 tracking. So burst baits and short, non-repeating burst safe strings can still exist without the possibility of burst safe infinites.

I agree with Severin that I would like to open a dialog on meter, how it is valued, and how it is gained by both the attacker and the defender. I would actually love to see some really out-there experiments, and I wrote a post in the Game Design thread suggesting one of my own. What if throw combos didn't give the defender any meter? They already give the attacker less damage (and subsequently less meter) than a strike combo, so what about giving them something unique? It would make the valuation of reset options more diverse instead of just different (lower for throws). As for how meter is used, it seems to me kind of odd to me that a DHC (2 meter or more) has a higher minimum damage (70% or thereabouts, IIRC) than a level 3 (45%) or a level 5 (55%).

Lastly, a modest proposal : The Arc System Works IPS. The IPS buffer is a fixed size and overflows after using 10 different moves.

Summary of my opinions
  • Make IPS accumulate at stage 5 and trigger at stage 3, not vice-versa
  • After people get used to one undizzy system, see how they like a cheap undizzy bar
  • Repeating a move after triggering IPS should give the defender a safe burst
  • Let's talk about meter, let's tinker with meter
  • ASW programmers, shame on you.
 
@Swap

I think you could do a "meter" while still keeping with the feel of an unknown amount of dizzy by adding a more prominent hitspark, character glow, whatever as it happens.

I think it is less important than I initially thought though. It is something that you'll get an intuitive feel for eventually, I imagine.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Skullgirls was supposed to be a mix of X-men vs Street Fighter and Marvel 2.

I like this comparison. This makes much more sense than the Vampire Savior/MVC2 comparisons that I've heard before. Take the ridiculous combos of XMvSF and add the suffocating pressure of MVC2 and you get Skullgirls. I'm no Vampire Savior pro but I played all the games and to be honest I don't see any influences in SG gameplay at all.

severin said:
Obviously I'm not a fan of this version

Sorry but I haven't really been in the loop so this is actually not obvious to me. Is it solely that "the option to do long combos isn't even there"?
 
I'm really not a fan of the 240 Undizzy. I get that it's to encourage a less combo centric game but that's why I like skullgirls so much. Maybe raise it just a little bit. But that's just my two cents.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1384585445.793888.jpg
 
severin said:
Hi.

Obviously I'm not a fan of this version, but as always, I'll optimize and figure out stuff.
If anything, I'd like meter scaling to be looked at now that the option to do long combos isn't even there.


@Mike_Z

Exactly this. Though I'd like to take it a step further:


Look at EVERYTHING that has been changed from vanilla to now and see if some of that stuff can't be reinstated since undizzy is a hammer that beats all if not many of these things into oblivion.

I'm talking about pw getting her ability to cancel st.hp xx fly j.mk into a combo.
Peacocks already been done meter gain nerf being reinstated back to its original form.
Taking the 50% damage scaling away from pw lk buer and even lp stinger (since damage is overall lower in the beta)
And a host of other character specific nerfs FOR EVERY CHARACTER, that were all pretty much a way to do what undizzy does, but may no longer be needed now that undizzy is in and and staying.

I only really know and remember pw nerfs, but a host of other smaller nerfs have been administered to most characters, and I for one would like as many of those nerfs to get axed as possible, assuming that undizzy stays in and assuming that the nerf wasn't over all good for the game (such as double cats nerf to 2 meters was good for the game, so it shouldn't go back to its original form)


It just seems to me that so many things have been changed from vanilla/sde that don't necessarily need to be changed anymore... Like I'm a proponent of filia getting back her infinite hairball cancels now that undizzy is the actual limiter. And so on and such and such.
 
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Dime_x said:
Like I'm a proponent of filia getting back her infinite hairball cancels now that undizzy is the actual limiter. And so on and such and such.
Huh. That would make sense, yeah. Interesting.
 
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I'd be open to those things being looked it if they still are necessary, once the changes are in, as balance changes.
 
Dime_x said:
I'm a proponent of filia getting back her infinite hairball cancels now that undizzy is the actual limiter.

I never thought of this. Good idea.
 
Is keeping the hairball limit even warranted anymore? The whole reason it was applied was to limit her combos, but with the undizzy limit set so low, does she still need the nerd? Granted I'm not entirely sure what the damage would be with it but it's worth looking into.
 
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