Possible new IPS

[IsaVulpes]

First a random note: Why is this discussion in this thread rather than in the one I opened specifically for it? Who knows~

Then, SIGH SIGH SIGH.

Funny things I've read in this thread so far:
- Combo creativity is dead
- It's impossible to do damage
- Killing in 1 Reset is fine "because it's 3v3 and you're supposed to be squishy there"
- People being forced to play neutral is a bad thing
- Resets are heavily gimped
- The most damaging Parasoul strings look boring and generic as fuck
- tbc

I'm just going to leave this here

Does any of you actually play the beta? Has actually tried it out for longer than 5 seconds?
The last guy that bitched at me for the changes stated that this short Undizzy + Ender tracking is way too strict
Maybe you all are hung up on some magic shit that isn't actually part of the game?

Icky ignored my last video, I guess he will ignore this one too and keep spouting crap?
We need Undizzy 400! Because the game is just no fun when you can't put the opponent into 25 seconds of nothingness!

I would be, considering a lot of the well known players I chat with seem to be against this because they are the one pushing the limits to the point where they see the flaws. Not to put everyone else down, but I strongly feel like a lot of the people that are ok with the current state of the beta aren't testing the extremes or actually playing matches.

No, it's the other way round. You guys AREN'T pushing the limits. I AM*, and I see that the shit IS STILL TOO LONG.
You do your SQG full combo into throw reset before the last chain and then whine you can't hit 5 more chains after that.
You are too busy whining that not every Reset Option leads to 1:1 the same damage anymore to understand that that may be a good thing.
You go "Combos are uncreative now" and WHATEVER ELSE THE FUCK sigh.

You think that there's an actual executional challenge in doing these combos beyond "You have to remember a lot of moves".
THERE ISN'T!! THE GAME BECOMES *HARDER* WHEN YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO PLAY IT BEYOND LEARNING SOME BABBY COMBOS IN TRAINING MODE
SG EXECUTION IS EASY AS FUCK AND THAT WON'T CHANGE BY ADDING MORE MOVES AT THE END OF YOUR COMBO, ABCLAUNCH AND 5F LINKS STAY EASY

And no, there won't be "plenty of neutral to go around with testing something like 200 stun limit starting in stage 5".
There'd be no point character neutral in 100 Undizzy either cus it's just Updofuck.
That'd be the next thing to fix, but first we need to get the game away from just making everyone asleep.

I (IN CASE ANYONE DIDN'T NOTICE) don't like the damage you can deal in this game, NOT IN THE BETA EITHER,
But ultimately - it's whatever. There are plenty of good games which are overflowing in high damage, it's fine.
There is not a single good game where you do 20+ second combos.
It's boring as fuck, and fun for neither the one that does them, nor the one that sits on the receiving end.
SG would still be fun to play if you could meterlessly ToD, AS LONG AS THOSE TODs DIDN'T TAKE LONGER THAN 5 SECONDS.
Did you guys seriously pick SG up because you hate multiplayer games?

Unfortunately I don't have time to wax poetic against vulpes' post as well as "others" but the stage 3 undizzy is not good at all when applied to throws. A common sense change such as making throws do regular damage, or making undizzy only kick in at stage 5 from a throw, or making stage 3 ALOT slower to kick in on throw starters, is needed.

If throws get made shit... I'm seriously not going to be happy. Throw game is half the reason why I love sg.

There's no need to 'wax poetic against my posts', I was actually the first guy in this thread who posted that throw resets take a significant hit with this change and listed the reasons here: http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php?threads/possible-new-ips.716/page-20#post-24202

Funnily enough, you were still on the "Wow this patch is amazing" train there. I guess you're just a week slower on everything?

* STILL NOT REALLY BECAUSE YOU KNOW, WE ARE TESTING THIS FOR ONE WEEK NOW
IT IS OBVIOUS AS FUCK THAT THERE WILL BE FURTHER OPTIMIZATIONS FOUND DOWN THE LINE
WHEN THERE'S A CHOICE BETWEEN
- "SHOULD I DO WHAT MIGHT END UP A LITTLE TOO GENEROUS" AND
- "SHOULD I DO WHAT MIGHT END UP A LITTLE TOO STRICT"
YOU ALWAYS GO FOR THE LATTER
BECAUSE THE PLAYERS GET BETTER (Okay, this is assuming a normal game, not SG)
AND UNLOCK SHIT AND THEN IT TURNS OUT THAT "A LITTLE TOO STRICT" WAS ACTUALLY STILL TOO GENEROUS

EVERY TIME MIKE WAS NICE WE GOT A LOT OF SHIT (HELLO VANILLA S./C. NORMALS COUNTING AS SEPARATE ONES FOR THE IPS)
HOW MANY PATCHES WILL IT TAKE FOR YOU TO LEARN

 

[Broken Loose]

I said this at the bottom of the previous page, but it bears repeating: We already tried the experiment to see what the "highest" tolerable combo length was, and that resulted in MDE where it took only a week or so before people could do touches of death with a single bar.

 

[RemiKz]

regarding the video

Yes I play the beta. In fact, I figured out a combo > reset > dhc that killed in 1.0 damage with 1 meter star within a few minutes of the latest change. You can ask a few people like khaos who I shared it with, I'm definitely testing out as much as I can. Which is why I thought it was weird that you were bringing up the example of 3v3 killing being a problem if stun wasn't set to start at stage 3.

So what are we going to do at this point? Reduce stun even more? I'm not sure what you want the game to be at this point. Like I brought up earlier, the fact that we have so much freedom with launchers, restands, wall bounces and OTG leaves the game very open to a variety of combos. The game is really awkward with forced short combos ala undizzy because of the way the characters are designed.

If characters movesets were more like darkstalkers, you wouldn't be imposing this mechanic that says "ok you need to stop now" because in that game you either knocked down the opponent, pushed them too far away to continue or reset them.

I said this at the bottom of the previous page, but it bears repeating: We already tried the experiment to see what the "highest" tolerable combo length was, and that resulted in MDE where it took only a week or so before people could do touches of death with a single bar.

Have we? I can't remember testing stun at 200 with stage 5 start. If that was too much, why not try like 180? We can even try lower if it really is still too high. Isn't the great thing about this development process that we can test this stuff openly? Provided the man in charge is willing to provide the test. Hell, I'll even go in and do everything by paper if need be, but it would be a lot nicer if we could try it in game.

 

[VIVIT_rv00]

I remember an 180 stun/stage 5 start/specials 0 stun build during the pre-release beta. Everybody bitched around like you wouldn't believe. Mike dropped it after a few days, and it led to the SQE combo system you all know and apparently loathe now.

Since I don't actually play the game, I won't comment on much more, but in my honest opinion combos are too central to the game still. Random hits should play some sort of role at least, instead of being what happens if you don't confirm properly. The reward for a combo confirm being that you get to put your opponent in the reset blender already sounds like plenty, so why do they even need to do this sort of damage?

--

I'm growing to dislike Undizzy actually because it's so opaque. With sufficient preparation you can plan your resets, and how much undizzy you accumulate from that, but as soon as you have to wing it you're sorta helpless and it just feels needlessly complex. If you need to have a ressource that gates combo damage, why don't you make damage more meter-reliant instead of introducing something new?

I don't want to lose the option of doing half life in one combo in favorable situations. I also don't want people to regularily do that sort of damage. So, how would an IPS look that accomplished this, I wonder...

 

[CaioLugon]

There is not a single good game where you do 20+ second combos.

Marvel is good.

 

[VIVIT_rv00]

There is not a single good game where you do 20+ second combos.

Then your stance on KOF13 would intrigue me.

 

[Dime]

@vulpes

I don't know why I bother replying to you sometimes.
I, as you know, don't test every little thing. And I also did not know how in that patch that throws were affected by stage 3 undizzy. I play against the computer a lot at that time especially since I'm not good at making up new optimal combos nor finding people to play against for the one day that any given version of the beta ips was out. The computer doesn't let itself get thrown much at all so.... There's your answer as to why I didn't see it in the one day I was playing that version.

Also... It's certainly possible to like one facet of a thing and not like another.

Look at my last post. I don't complain about undizzy or short combos or decay... All things I don't particularly like...

Instead I singled out stage 3 undizzy on throws. That is a very specific thing and has almost nothing to do with the rest of the ips as a whole.

Funny, that even that is something that you rail against even though it's a rather small fucking point. Also, your parasoul examples are shit until you start hitting them consistently in matches. Last I saw of your matches you couldn't hit anywhere near that consistently...

So much for "babby" combos... Which funnily enough is another shit point. Baby combos? Easy execution? So?

Like seriously I thought everyone was agreeing that moving away from execution as a balancing mechanism is a good thing... Then you go and talk shit about EASY EXECUTION that does big damage.

So taking you literally I can only assume that you want games that have low execution combos only and those combos do low damage only....

BORRRRRRRRING. sorry.

I'd rather sg and its long combos, many of which do take good to decent execution to eke out optimized damage.

Funnily enough, I think it's primarily damage that you have a problem with. I don't think that high stakes/high level play is up your alley and that that is the real reason why you dislike sg's current gaming climate.

I mean...

the fact that sg's neutral game is pretty booty by most peoples standards when compared to other games, yet you want to force more of this neutral on us... Which will be all, updo/assist turtling... Is just super shortsighted.

All/most of the things that you and mike have been hypothesizing as far as the game is concerned is basically about LIMITING the player, rather than EMPOWERING the player.

Limit the combos, limit the undizzy, limit the normals that can be done to not have ips trigger... Etc etc etc


When good game design is about empowering the player. Empowering the players options at range to include good attacks instead of just good movement.

I just see this type of balancing as the kind of balancing that will turn people off. Nerfing a mechanic rather than just making a mechanic that will take the overpowered mechanics place or offer a different yet powerful tactic to overtake the overpowered mechanics place. In this example, sg lacks pokes. And no amount of lower damage/moar resets/undizzy will hide that fact. All that will happen is that the game will get more and more turtly as more and more "neutral" is forced, which will funnily enough force even more turtling since a big lead will start to become insurmountable as time slowly ticks away... A huge weakness of low damage games... See early sf4 for easy examples or even cvs2.

Low damage equals lower chance of comebacks, equals more chance of people giving up at the last character or. to playing as hard and of making people turtle up more across the whole game since one opening will start to be seen as someting that can't easily be comeback against.


But... It's whatever. Sg does so many things right that it just becomes annoying when it also does so many things wrong... Having said that, I don't mind the direction mike is going because I understand his reasoning.

You on the other hand, just don't seem to like getting hit and you seem to want reads to mean less, spacing and coin flips to mean less, a "war" of attrition... Which to me just seems like been there done that, got bored and left.

 

[dekillsage]

I'm still killing everyone midscreen off a 2 meter start just like I did in MDE.

w/e lol

 

[Dime]

I'm still killing everyone midscreen off a 2 meter start just like I did in MDE.

w/e lol

You use bella.

Bella
Parasoul
And ms fortune all have high damage issues in this game with painwheel coming in lower now that her deathcrawl has been nerfed.

Characters are still certainly capable of killing in one reset depending on ratio and with enough of a meter start, I don't think that was ever in doubt.

 

[Woofly]

EVERY TIME MIKE WAS NICE WE GOT A LOT OF SHIT (HELLO VANILLA S./C. NORMALS COUNTING AS SEPARATE ONES FOR THE IPS)
HOW MANY PATCHES WILL IT TAKE FOR YOU TO LEARN

That rage, lel.

Real Talk Edit - Mike does dial back a tad and yes depending on how you look at things it may be a problem. But would it have mattered? 1.0 with SDE IPS would have still been too long and damaging, SDE with 350 undizzy would have still been too long and damaging.

You also need to ask yourself if Mike even wants lower damage, if not his goals have already been accomplished, the combos are shorter and the damage requires what I recall him wanting it to require - resources.

Now maybe I, you or a few other players would prefer less damage in general but tbh, I am surprised combos are shorter and damage requires meter. I am going to take that as a win and not push it any further, lol.

 

[Darklightjg1]

I don't think Fortune's going to be dealing higher than average under this system (the head took a HUGE hit and was big part of that damage output).

And I'm sorry, but people talking about TOD combos starting at a certain amount of meter but failing to disclose/intentionally not mentioning how much was spent overall (which is usually 3 or more bars if you really only got one opening), I think that is completely fair game in a game designed like this. You spent a lot.... gave a lot to the opponent... and now you don't have much and have to be more careful about getting opened up yourself.

I said this at the bottom of the previous page, but it bears repeating: We already tried the experiment to see what the "highest" tolerable combo length was, and that resulted in MDE where it took only a week or so before people could do touches of death with a single bar.

No that's only one "experiment" that favors the side that prefers the game to allow more freedom to do what we want with combos. There's so many other possibilities to cover and we've pretty much been only getting the lower/stricter end of the spectrum during these experiments along with undizzy that tracks way too early now. Numerically, a "compromise" between the 200 undizzy a lot of people have been begging for and the 350 in MDE... is 275. Where's that experiment?

 

[dekillsage]

I'm glad you agree that me spending all my meter to kill a character is fine because that's what I'm doing in MDE right now. I like mde its pretty fun

 

[Woofly]

"[13:20]wippler-workn [#skullgirls] And the 2nd one...soooo? You spend 2 meters and the next character comes in unable to be combo'd."

This is true and it changes everything btw. Before when you came up with these combos Vulpes they were something you could always do and it would not effect you negatively *so long as the execution was there*, now.....not so much. It adds choice, do I want to spend the meter here and have less options both offensively and defensively *and meter is quite hard to come by in the beta at the moment* or do I want to go for the kill. Also by options I mean so many things, PBGC > super, raw supers, alpha counters, alpha counter supers, reversal supers, safe DHCs. I could honestly go on, I truly think that for the first time in SG there is no illusion in choice over how to spend my meter, because it actually matters now. Even in 3v3 super damage edition.

Edit - lel.

 

[IsaVulpes]

Which is why I thought it was weird that you were bringing up the example of 3v3 killing being a problem if stun wasn't set to start at stage 3.

Because it's a design question.

The deterioration is supposed to prevent maxlength combo > reset > death.
That's currently not working, but it's not working due to parameters. Because Undizzy is too high / Because the deterioration is too fast / whatever.
With Undizzy not bursting until Stage5, the deterioration becomes meaningless, and there's no way around it.

"I think the whole deterioration thing is garbage, just remove it" is a valid opinion (one that I disagree with, but w/e :P )
"I like the deterioration, but Bursts should only trigger in Stage5 onward" isn't, because then it plain doesn't do anything.

So what are we going to do at this point? Reduce stun even more? I'm not sure what you want the game to be at this point.

- General combo length was fine imo at 230. Maybe lower to 220 and see whether that cuts off another 1-2 seconds without being annoying. 200 felt too strict.
- Slower Deterioration so it actually plays a role. 8 Ud/Frame is *WAY* too fast.
- Bonus damage similar to the CH damage if you hit the opponent with something while he's at 0 Undizzy (only for the first hit in a combo)
- Undizzy still gets reduced on CH, but doesn't go below 0 anymore

- Combos not boring people to death
- Early resets actually being rewarded rather than full combo > 12f reset > oh 100 Undizzy is gone, well then let's go for another combo
- Super early resets being rewarded (stuff like first String Parasoul [c.LK c.MK 4HK] or Filia [IAD j.HK, IAD j.HK]) ++ Neutral Tools get stronger
- Combos stay short no-matter-what, and Neutral Tools which don't convert to combos don't stay nerfed (..What a weird change, for that reason alone)

This would be my first shot at things.

Like I brought up earlier, the fact that we have so much freedom with launchers, restands, wall bounces and OTG leave the game very open to a variety of combos. The game is really awkward with forced short combos ala undizzy because of the way the characters are designed.

I don't think that stuff like this

is "really awkward" at all.

"Tons of combo freedom" means you can spend a lot of time in training mode;
Figuring out combo paths, seeing move interactions, discovering specific resets that only work after one peculiar string which you then try to add to your combo, etc.
It doesn't mean "Figure out 50 combo paths, then all toss them in the same combo and win by the opponent falling asleep midmatch".

Then your stance on KOF13 would intrigue me.

Okay, maybe I should add "regularly"? Assboring long combos happen when you're on your last character and spend 5 Meter + Full Drive. Most of the game is short stuff.
But yes,

Stays complete and utter garbage. Who has fun with this?

The computer doesn't let itself get thrown much at all so.... There's your answer as to why I didn't see it in the one day I was playing that version.

Training Mode and Thinking are plenty. It took me one reading of the patchnotes to presume that Throws would be gimped^_^

Like seriously I thought everyone was agreeing that moving away from execution as a balancing mechanism is a good thing... Then you go and talk shit about EASY EXECUTION that does big damage.

So taking you literally I can only assume that you want games that have low execution combos only and those combos do low damage only....

How stupid can you be to interpret that in my statement? I'm not saying anything about combo damage at all? I like that SG combos are easy.
There are, however, a lot of people who say "I want long combos to stay in because I like the executional challenge"
or "Short combos make the game too easy, I want SG to be hard", or "If you make combos only 8 seconds long, a pro will look 1:1 the same as someone new"
When the combo length has little to no meaning for 'executional challenge' at all, shorter combos actually make the game harder, and if a pro is only differentiable by his combos then everything is borked anyways.

Funnily enough, I think it's primarily damage that you have a problem with.

the fact that sg's neutral game is pretty booty by most peoples standards when compared to other games, yet you want to force more of this neutral on us... Which will be all, updo/assist turtling... Is just super shortsighted.

Did you actually read my post? I address both these points.

Parasoul [has] high damage issues in this game

I think I should just be done, you clearly don't play the game at all.

 

[Woofly]

Why isn't parasoul -6 after st.lp, st.mp, st.hpx2, lp napalm shot?

<<<<<<<

 

[Verstande]

Where can I go to find out what is undizzy?

 

[Jason]

Where can I go to find out what is undizzy?

Its a limit placed on the number of moves you can put into a combo.

Lights do 15 undizzy, Mediums do 20, Heavies do 30, Specials do 20, supers do none. Once all the moves in your combo add up more than the undizzy limit your opponent can burst out of the combo.

What that limit is and when it starts is currently being experimented with. Current Build is - Undizzy starts in Stage 5 and limit is 350. Beta Build is Undizzy starts in stage 3 and limit is 240 (much shorter combos).

 

[VIVIT_rv00]

They do only get a burst once you start a new chain, though. If you go over the limit within one chain, the opponent cannot burst until you finish the chain.

 

[Number 13]

Where can I go to find out what is undizzy?

MvC 2 mechanic. Once the undizzy threshold is reached the combo is about to end in a nutshell.

Current threshold as of now is 240 on the Beta. L, M, H, Specials each do a specific amount of undizzy value ("Drama" is game term). Counter Hits can influence the values as well. Basically another system in the game to work independently from the IPS as a safeguard to keep combo length in check.

 

[Mwisk]

240 seems perfect in covering most options than former tests. Undizzy triggering too fast means your reset was also too fast, with the new decay you can let a lot of it go away with a reset that isn't a 3-4 framer, which will net you a combo into kill if you know what you're doing. Which is fine in SG, 2 openings for 2/3 characters or like 3-4 resets vs. solos.

Lowering undizzy under 240 effects characters differently based on how their normals work. Some can get from 2-2.5K more damage per meter with ease, while some stuff will become unnecessarily hard and combo paths will be narrowed. 240 is still taking away the same damage, length from combos more evenly. Some of the earlier experiments didn't do as much of a good job in that regard.

 

[scrubbyscum999]

Well, since I know what undizzy is I have a better idea of what's going on. Has there been a beta build with undizzy starting at stage 4 with 350 undizzy? I think that would be a good place to start without having to much restriction. Again, I don't see the problem with long combos. I don't go to sleep when I am training with people in the community x400 better than me and they do their full combo. But what do I know, I can't even do a combo yet. This is just my observation.

 

[AceZTeller]

I personally like the combo length and undizzy right now, bar the fact that I would like the decay to be somewhat slower or delayed. IMO, that would increase the need to: combo -> reset -> combo into sweep -> pressure -> whatever else.

 

[Dime]

Yes vulpes, because 7k damage METERLESS MIDSCREEN AND UNIVERSAL is low damage....

LOL

 

[VIVIT_rv00]

Could you please attach the combo you're talking about, for I have never heard of it and it would be most enlightening to actually see proof it exists. While we're at it, define what exactly 'high damage' is to you. Are we talking meterless damage? It'd be wise to keep in mind that, if you're not resetting, you usually want to finish a combo with a super, and if I'm informed correctly Parasoul's damage is far less impressive when you look at 1-bar combos...?

(This isn't meant to be rude: It's simply far easier to discuss about a topic if the goalposts aren't constantly in motion, and the statements are supplanted by truth.)

 

[Master Chibi]

I have to agree with Vulpes entirely.

I think this game is in sore need of a real neutral game because then MAYBE we'd get to see each of the characters use their tools to compliment that vs only using them to pad the length of their combos. That's what bothers me the most. I barely see anyone in this thread going 'man there is some SICK midscreen stuff I have with Parasoul ready' or 'I have this disgusting set up with M. Fortune'. It's just constant talk of worry about the combo length being too short.

I'm going to be honest, I think the majority of you are clouded in your judgement. You are dead set on having this game be a combo centric title and imo it is suffering because of it. Have you ever played a character where you said 'nah that super's useless don't ever use it'? I wouldn't say any of the tools the characters have are useless (they're clearly not) but is being used in a combo their only purpose? What if Parasoul had a super where she put out six orbs for a limited time? What if Peacock had a super bomb that could MOVE ON ITS OWN and take multiple hits? Get my drift? I think we're heading in the wrong direction, the potential is there waiting for us.

I mean it still bothers me that no one has any qualms being right up in the face of the grappler of this game. That's a big ? right there for me lol

 

[IsaVulpes]

I mean it still bothers me that no one has any qualms being right up in the face of the grappler of this game. That's a big ? right there for me lol

Bella is not exactly a traditional grappler. Neither is she the scariest thing ever up close, nor does she insurmountable issues getting in your face.
She's more of a, uh, normal character with command grabs; Abel, not Zangief. (Thankfully!)

 

[Master Chibi]

Bella is not exactly a traditional grappler. Neither is she the scariest thing ever up close, nor does she insurmountable issues getting in your face.
She's more of a, uh, normal character with command grabs; Abel, not Zangief. (Thankfully!)

I know, but she still reminds me of Clark from KoF who I still see as a grappler who is still scary as hell up close and can rush down. I don't want to be anywhere near Clark in KoF but no one has problems being in her lap in this game. Maybe if her damage came entirely from grabs that would result in her being treated as such :P

 

[iLoli]

Even in the case of Abel, no one is really trying to bully him like that in his face.

Hell, even Makoto has an "when I grab you, you're gonna feel it" option, she's best known for being reallly hard to deal with up close.

 

[dekillsage]

I didn't realize people can get right in bella's face and do stuff without consequences.

 

[Master Chibi]

I didn't realize people can get right in bella's face and do stuff without consequences.

I didn't say 'without consequences', I just said that most folks really won't keep away from her, if at all. Not even much of a mid screen game either, just up in her face lol

 

[dekillsage]

You're talking about only fortune right?

 

[KhaosMuffins]

On combos: How short do you guys want them? Currently the most I'm seeing is 9 seconds + super from one bar combos, and with undizzy how it is now you still get to have multiple paths to take in your combo options. I personally think the length in the beta is fine, but what exactly are you guys looking at for length?
Edit: Hah, never mind. Big Band's stuff is pretty long.

On neutral: What are you guys looking for here? Of course assists make up a large part of the neutral game, but unlike what a lot of people like to think, the neutral game is more than just "Call a DP assist and run away if it's blocked" (look at videos that aren't just Dekillsage vs Duckator; look at OmniSScythe, for example). Also, Skullgirls is just really momentum-heavy with how combos and resets work. I don't think there's really a way to force more playing of the neutral game once someone gets a hit aside from proper teching, avoiding resets, pushblocking correctly to get out of pressure, etc.

 

[Dime]

Could you please attach the combo you're talking about, for I have never heard of it and it would be most enlightening to actually see proof it exists. While we're at it, define what exactly 'high damage' is to you. Are we talking meterless damage? It'd be wise to keep in mind that, if you're not resetting, you usually want to finish a combo with a super, and if I'm informed correctly Parasoul's damage is far less impressive when you look at 1-bar combos...?

(This isn't meant to be rude: It's simply far easier to discuss about a topic if the goalposts aren't constantly in motion, and the statements are supplanted by truth.)

Her metered damage is average midscreen.
Her unmetered damage midscreen is pretty high, definitely on the higher end of things, though not absolute tip top tier, it is anything but low.

The video in question applies to mde not beta. I don't like looking things up, but vulpes has posted it many, many, many times... And keeps using it as an example of sg's high damage, when it's the damage at a character got applied specifically to her normals only and yet she didn't take an ips stage nerf, to balance it out, nor did she take a meter nerf to balance it out.

This means that she can do METERLESS combos for 40-50% life at 1.00, reset into near the same combo and then dhc into a high damage ender like argus and get kills...

Using most/all of the meter that she procured, and using a reset as well.

I don't see a problem with that. Vulpes does. But I do have a problem with using that as an example since it uses one of the strongest dhc's in the game and combines that with a character that had her normal move and "teardrop?" Damage, buffed.

 

[Dime]

I know, but she still reminds me of Clark from KoF who I still see as a grappler who is still scary as hell up close and can rush down. I don't want to be anywhere near Clark in KoF but no one has problems being in her lap in this game. Maybe if her damage came entirely from grabs that would result in her being treated as such :P

...because most characters don't have good pokes or good fireballs for keeping her away?

Seriously it ain't hard to figure out why people go in against her... They have no choice. But most people do however try and stay at midrange against her before they move completely in... It's just that sg kinda gives her GREAT answers for most characters midrange game:

Armor moves through pokes.
A fireball reflect.
A command normal that hits from 3/4 screen away.


Being close to a good Bella is some scary ass shit. Bad Bella's... Not so much since bad Bella's gimp themselves by never command grabbing, or doing them at the most obvious times and also by not using Bella's reversals, of which she has some amazing ones,rob ably the best in the game.

Once Bella gets close she can ep destroy you for blocking, for jumping away or for attacking her... I don't see how that translates to non scary.

 

[Darlos9D]

On combos: How short do you guys want them? Currently the most I'm seeing is 9 seconds + super from one bar combos, and with undizzy how it is now you still get to have multiple paths to take in your combo options. I personally think the length in the beta is fine, but what exactly are you guys looking at for length?

On neutral: What are you guys looking for here? Of course assists make up a large part of the neutral game, but unlike what a lot of people like to think, the neutral game is more than just "Call a DP assist and run away if it's blocked" (look at videos that aren't just Dekillsage vs Duckator; look at OmniSScythe, for example). Also, Skullgirls is just really momentum-heavy with how combos and resets work. I don't think there's really a way to force more playing of the neutral game once someone gets a hit aside from proper teching, avoiding resets, pushblocking correctly to get out of pressure, etc.

On combos: The current beta length is actually... pretty good, I think. I'm not tearing my hair out about it anymore. Also what were once half-assed combos are now kinda legit, haha.

On neutral: I have a thought on this, regarding how momentum-based and reset-heavy this game is. And that has to do with how hitstun recovery works in the air. In many other fighting games, once your hitstun (or "untech" or whatever) runs out while in midair, you get some kind of chance to control how you recover and tech. I don't know about MvC2, but in MvC3, you can hold a direction to tech in that direction, giving you some control over the situation. Also, you get a little invuln. Games like GG and BB take it a step further by letting you decide when the tech actually happens. Stuff like that makes it way harder for the opponent to reset you, since its more complicated than "just do something right after the hitstun ends, and you don't have to worry about them suddenly not being there."

I feel like this difference is what makes the game so reset-heavy (or part of the reason, anyway), and keeps the game from going back to neutral more often. And maybe that's just how Mike wants it, seeing as how that's probably a pretty deliberate design decision. But if we want the game to go back to neutral more, well... that core design feature may have to be addressed.

 

[Darklightjg1]

I didn't say 'without consequences', I just said that most folks really won't keep away from her, if at all. Not even much of a mid screen game either, just up in her face lol

People do what they can with the tools they have vs her. Not a lot of characters (out of only 10 so far anyway) are designed to hold a keepaway/mid-range game for that long and Cerebella won't struggle that hard to get in anyway. Parasoul and Peacock maybe and some AA assists that give everyone trouble, but I'm not going to rely on just a dead cross/needle/scalpel-based keepaway game to fight her. I'll get killed unless the Cerebella player somehow forgets all the shit she has to deal with that. That shit only turns into real pressure when her life is low, so I'm looking for solid openings more often over that.

Edit: Dime beat me to it

 

[IsaVulpes]

I'm absolutely shocked that DimeX really seems to think that Parasoul has high damage output in SQG/MDE/Whatever you want to call it
Just baffled
What the flying fuck

 

[KhaosMuffins]

Her metered damage is average midscreen.
Her unmetered damage midscreen is pretty high, definitely on the higher end of things, though not absolute tip top tier, it is anything but low.

The video in question applies to mde not beta. I don't like looking things up, but vulpes has posted it many, many, many times... And keeps using it as an example of sg's high damage, when it's the damage at a character got applied specifically to her normals only and yet she didn't take an ips stage nerf, to balance it out, nor did she take a meter nerf to balance it out.

This means that she can do METERLESS combos for 40-50% life at 1.00, reset into near the same combo and then dhc into a high damage ender like argus and get kills...

Using most/all of the meter that she procured, and using a reset as well.

I don't see a problem with that. Vulpes does. But I do have a problem with using that as an example since it uses one of the strongest dhc's in the game and combines that with a character that had her normal move and "teardrop?" Damage, buffed.

Parasoul still doesn't outdamage most of the cast even with her moves having been buffed.

Val, Fortune, Peacock, Parasoul, and maybe Squigly all can keep Bella out easily/have absolutely no reason to go in on her. Especially Fortune and Val who just greatly outmaneuver Bella.

 

[Dime]

Val, Fortune, Peacock, Parasoul, and maybe Squigly all can keep Bella out easily/have absolutely no reason to go in on her. Especially Fortune and Val who just greatly outmaneuver Bella.

I'll agree with fortune since fortune has a projectile that bites and incapacitates her opponent.

Everyone else though? Naw, you NEED updo or pillar to fight bella. Or double with like 5 meters. Barring that, you gonna get blown up. Though I don't know much about the squigly matchup but I'm pretty sure that clap and j.mp will kill squiglys j.hp or trade massively in Bella's favor... Though yeah that's theory fighter in squiglys case.

 

[Jason]

Even in the case of Abel, no one is really trying to bully him like that in his face.

Hell, even Makoto has an "when I grab you, you're gonna feel it" option, she's best known for being reallly hard to deal with up close.

Abel has terrible defensive tools. Once your in on him, its pretty easy to mix him up and rush him down. You just don't want to be up in his face when he's the one in control. Same with Makoto.