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SG Game Design Discussion

Tomo009 said:
What is the justification for grab bag NOT getting anything else right now? It seems a little odd compared to other tools in the game.
What's the justification for Painwheel s.LK, Parasoul HK.Egret, Filia Ringlet Psych, Peacock L.Bang NOT getting anything else?
 
IsaVulpes said:
What's the justification for Painwheel s.LK, Parasoul HK.Egret, Filia Ringlet Psych, Peacock L.Bang NOT getting anything else?

I don't understand your point here. As far as I know pw's LK, HK.egret, L.bang all lead to combos meterlessly. I still don't understand the point of ringlet psych. Grab bag does have a clear use, but doesn't lead to anything meterlessly or otherwise...so what's the connection?
 
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IsaVulpes said:
What's the justification for Painwheel s.LK, Parasoul HK.Egret, Filia Ringlet Psych, Peacock L.Bang NOT getting anything else?
Maybe I worded it badly, but I think you are talking about something different to what I intended to. Also I completely forgot Ringlet Psych existed.

I mean, why does it lead to nothing, even with meter expenditure.
 
The connection is that all of them are subpar tools which have a niche use regardless (aside from PW s.LK which is completely and utterly useless),
And there's no real reason to touch them because the character they sit on is fine.

Grab Bag provides unseeable Air Resets which 'cost' 0 Undizzy and deal meterless 2850 damage.

Yeah your positioning afterwards isn't good, but it's still better than not having this tool at all, and contrary to the US opinion I don't think Bella is garbage.
 
IsaVulpes said:
The connection is that all of them are subpar tools which have a niche use regardless (aside from PW s.LK which is completely and utterly useless),
And there's no real reason to touch them because the character they sit on is fine.

Grab Bag provides unseeable Air Resets which 'cost' 0 Undizzy and deal meterless 2850 damage.

Yeah your positioning afterwards isn't good, but it's still better than not having this tool at all, and contrary to the US opinion I don't think Bella is garbage.
I don't think she is either, though my perception is probably skewed from the sheer amount of face crushing I've received from Age's. However I really don't care when he Grab Bags me, it pretty much never does much, at the times it could be used, generally there could have just been guaranteed damage from a completed combo that with meter would do more anyway.

Painwheel's s.LK is weird definitely, but it has more use than Squigly's s.MK.

What is Squigly's s.MK meant to do? It doesn't even anti air? It's a launch that isn't jump cancelable?
 
Tomo009 said:
Painwheel's s.LK is weird definitely, but it has more use than Squigly's s.MK.
PW s.LK has the same Frame Data as c.LK, the worse hitbox, much less range, less damage and isn't a low.

What is Squigly's s.MK meant to do? It doesn't even anti air? It's a launch that isn't jump cancelable?
? It doesn't launch..
 
IsaVulpes said:
PW s.LK has the same Frame Data as c.LK, the worse hitbox, much less range, less damage and isn't a low.


? It doesn't launch..
On air hit, it pops them up, I'm not sure why it does that, but it has no use as an anti air, for all the reasons you mentioned on PW's s.LK and it screws up combos if you use it over 2MK.
 
I don't think Grab Bag should get a follow up, not in the beta build anyway. It used to be that using it was pointless because you could just do a reset that leads into a naturally more damaging combo, but now that the Undizzy cap is lower and resetting when at 230 Undizzy into another combo isn't the smartest thing, it'll actually have a purpose (as well as the cost of characters being repositioned so the playing field is near enough equal).

Without the beta change it's a pretty redundant move unless you somehow messed up your combo and it'll activate IPS on your landing chain and the opponent has at most 2850 health. The prerequisite (messed up combo) for that is unlikely enough on its own...
 
I'm still of the opinion that grab bag could get a 25% damage increase.


That is all, it certainly doesnt need the ability to go into combo.
 
Does anyone know the reason for all sweeps being techable on hit? It seems like a weird mechanic now that i know the game much better.
 
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Grab bag builds more meter for yourself than it does for the opponent (about 1/3 bar for yourself, unsure of how much for opponent), it is recently found possible to continue a combo after it (see Elda's video here), it can stuff some moves easily (hey there Gregor Samson), so I don't classify it as useless. Just not something you are looking to use all the time.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Preround movement is garbage.

It's either:
- Zoners start the round in the corner
Or:
- Both players walk into each other's faces in the middle of the screen and the one with the faster buttons wins
Or both.

I have never seen this used in a good way.
If it is used correctly, pre round movement is one of the fairest ways to start a match:


Start both characters in each other's face point blank midscreen with the ability to jump/double jump/fly and airdash but not attack:


The attacking close character such as val, walks forward, the backing away far character such as peacock, anticipates vals forward movement and jumps OVER val, to her other said and then runs towards vals corner... Peacock has just gained about a full screen more runaway distance before she hits the corner than if she were to just move towards her corner from the start.

Alternatively, peacock could have just jumped over val and then double jumped backward towards her original corner to stay near the middle of the screen. Also, if people are smart and time the round properly, its possible to get off a jumping attack against a grounded opponent if one jumps just before attacks are unlocked, but the attack gets unlocked before hitting the ground... There are already "guess the state the opponent will be in when attacks are unlocked" games in umvc3...ie will the opponent be on the ground, or at the apex of their jump or on jump descent... Etc etc etc


@Age

Point taken about deeper neutral, but i dont think sg needs any more depth at neutral:

Neutral in its most basic form is rps for 3 things:


1. walk forward
2. walk backward
3. Stick out an attack

1 Beats 2
2 beats 3
3 beats 1


And once this basic mindgame is established, much higher level mindgames can be applied.

The problem with sg is that the 3 generally only comes from the air or from an assist but has little to no ground application as far as safety goes. So one cant really stop the opponent from advancing when one is on the ground except via reads like airthrow and the like.


But this has little to do with depth and more to do with design. The depth (rps 1,2,3 mixup game) is already there and working, basically. It just breaks down quickly cause of how lacking the 3 is.
 
Dime_x said:
The attacking close character such as val, walks forward, the backing away far character such as peacock, anticipates vals forward movement and jumps OVER val, to her other said and then runs towards vals corner... Peacock has just gained about a full screen more runaway distance before she hits the corner than if she were to just move towards her corner from the start.
Oh, preround movement is turnbased? Cus apparently it's totally not like Val can see you jump forward and then like, react to what you're doing and rip you a new one later.
 
Pre-round movement is an advantage only to the character that wants to start the match in your face. For the other character, it's a huge disadvantage no matter what your first move is, the opposing character would have gained a lot of space before the fight even begins.
 
Maybe allow pre-round movement, but enforce a strict "personal space rule" [PSR] during that short interval where both characters can't be at a certain distance(any closer distance then neutral starting point) close to each other.

In practice during pre-round the two characters at start for example would be able to either:

- Both players back-dash away= personal space not breached
- Player 1 back-dashes away and player 2 neutral jumps= personal space not breached
- Player one back-dash away/Player two forward-dashes to cover the widening space= persona space not breached.
- Both players don't move at all at the starting spot= personal space not breached, etc etc etc you get the idea as long as hard close limit space (any close from starting distance) is not breached.

- Both players air dashing each other from the starting point= Personal Space breached= Air Dash doesn't happen.

Neither side would gain any significant advantage/disadvantage, but would give off the aesthetic illusion that the fight started before the round even formally began.
 
Don't like pre-round movement. Round should just start when it starts, and not give even more advantages to rushdown characters with good mobility.

Number 13 said:
Maybe allow pre-round movement, but enforce a strict "personal space rule" [PSR] during that short interval where both characters can't be at a certain distance(any closer distance then neutral starting point) close to each other.

In practice during pre-round the two characters at start for example would be able to either:

- Both players back-dash away= personal space not breached
- Player 1 back-dashes away and player 2 neutral jumps= personal space not breached
- Player one back-dash away/Player two forward-dashes to cover the widening space= persona space not breached.
- Both players don't move at all at the starting spot= personal space not breached, etc etc etc you get the idea as long as hard close limit space (any close from starting distance) is not breached.

- Both players air dashing each other from the starting point= Personal Space breached= Air Dash doesn't happen.

Neither side would gain any significant advantage/disadvantage, but would give off the aesthetic illusion that the fight started before the round even formally began.
Except you should move forward with peacock anyway to deliberately trigger personal space bleach. I mean, why would you move back when you know the other guy will move forward, pushing you closer to the corner and leave you no further away from the other guy? In fact, since no characters like being closer to the corner, the optimum strategy is to always move forward to force a PSB.
 
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View619 said:
Pre-round movement is an advantage only to the character that wants to start the match in your face. For the other character, it's a huge disadvantage no matter what your first move is, the opposing character would have gained a lot of space before the fight even begins.


Just because I didn't reply to vulpes doesn't mean that he's correct. It actually is turn based if he's trying to react to something that I did... Because he can't react until after I've done something. Anything else is anticipation.

And I'm not of the opinion that people that actually fully use what pre round movement can give when it gives full movement instead of truncated movement, is better for the upclose character.

It is actually very even. Because like I said, there are a lot of mindgames to be played as to spacing and what state one will be in. And also as far as I know it isn't possible to reactively jump with another character and block that character from jumping over you... On reaction... When there are so many other choices as well

Anyways it's how I used to beat magneto mvc3 st.hp mash at start of round cheese:

Just jump around and try to be at mags head height during a jump just as the round goes into it's attacking phase at which point, mags st.hp is slow, can't throw, so no absurd option select and has a terrible AA hitbox.

Anywho it was good enough to make it so that gas couldn't just st.hp cheese his way to an advantage everytime with me having to corner myself in order to not give him that advantage.


Also there is a game... Can't remember its name. Anime game that allows full pre round movement in the form of dashes and airdashes and double and triple jumps etc etc etc

And that game, while seemingly broken in many aspects, it's start of round seems to be the most balanced of all games.

-edit

It's arcana heart 3

Pre Round movement seems very balanced and is full movement and seems to neither favor the attacker nor the zoner and gives full neutral at beginning of most games from what I've seen.

Sg is a different game for sure... But trying to stay close to a peacock that can do any combination of superjump, regular jump, airdash, double jump, run, and backdash and be on the ground or in the air seems seriously theory fighter to me.
 
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Dime_x said:
Sg is a different game for sure... But trying to stay close to a peacock that can do any combination of superjump, regular jump, airdash, double jump, run, and backdash and be on the ground or in the air seems seriously theory fighter to me.
So basically Bella and Parasoul always lose out?
 
123stw said:
So basically Bella and Parasoul always lose out?
Bella has double jump and parasoul has a fast ground dash and some of the best fireballs in the game so.... No?

Though, maybe perhaps in parasouls case this might be an issue against peacock specifically... But it is right now anyways...
 
Number 13 said:
Maybe allow pre-round movement, but enforce a strict "personal space rule" [PSR] during that short interval where both characters can't be at a certain distance(any closer distance then neutral starting point) close to each other.

In practice during pre-round the two characters at start for example would be able to either:

- Both players back-dash away= personal space not breached
- Player 1 back-dashes away and player 2 neutral jumps= personal space not breached
- Player one back-dash away/Player two forward-dashes to cover the widening space= persona space not breached.
- Both players don't move at all at the starting spot= personal space not breached, etc etc etc you get the idea as long as hard close limit space (any close from starting distance) is not breached.

- Both players air dashing each other from the starting point= Personal Space breached= Air Dash doesn't happen.

Neither side would gain any significant advantage/disadvantage, but would give off the aesthetic illusion that the fight started before the round even formally began.
Doesn't this completely remove any purpose for preround movement? Your options become "start closer to the corner" or "stay where you are", I think it's obvious which one is unanimously optimal for any character bar Peacock who has the option to teleport.
 
What was the design choice for using diagonal button presses for Assists (LK+MP/LP+MK for Assist 1 and MP+HK/MK+HP for Assist 2)? I have an 8 button arcade stick and I can set up the last 2 buttons as Assist Macros, but how do people play 3 character teams on a 6 button Arcade Stick? Is it awkward? Marvel vs Capcom 2 and 3 have 4 attack buttons and 2 separate assist buttons, but SG is a 6 button fighter that lets you also use 2 assists. MvC1 was 6 buttons, but you could only pick 2 playable characters and the 3rd character was just used for Assists.

For example, mine point character is Valentine and I want to combo into a lockdown assist. If my team has 2 characters, then it's not a problem. I just do a combo that has s.HP or s.HKx3 and tap s.HP+s.MK or s.HK+s.MP during the 2nd or 3rd hit of s.HK (I don't remember. I'm still learning Val in the Lab). But what if I run a team of 3 characters like Valentine/Lockdown Assist/Anti-Air Assist and I only have 6 buttons on my arcade stick? How will I call Assist 1 while pressing HP/HK? I'm not saying I have this problem, but I'm curious how 6 button Arcade Stick owners deal with it. Is there some kind of different timing?
 
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I'm pretty sure the design choice for it was just that they ran out of button combinations. KK is probably the only one left but that would probably be worse than the diagonal button combos.

I'm not sure what the problem would be to press HP and LK and MP at the same time though? It seems pretty straightforward to me, even if using the macro is probably much easier.
 
Chrono_Tata said:
I'm pretty sure the design choice for it was just that they ran out of button combinations. KK is probably the only one left but that would probably be worse than the diagonal button combos.

I'm not sure what the problem would be to press HP and LK and MP at the same time though? It seems pretty straightforward to me, even if using the macro is probably much easier.
I just checked in Training Mode and I found out I can call Assist 1 just by pressing LK+HP, but it doesn't work if I press LP+HK for some reason.
 
Vladislav_Paizis said:
What was the design choice for using diagonal button presses for Assists (LK+MP/LP+MK for Assist 1 and MP+HK/MK+HP for Assist 2)? I have an 8 button arcade stick and I can set up the last 2 buttons as Assist Macros, but how do people play 3 character teams on a 6 button Arcade Stick? Is it awkward? Marvel vs Capcom 2 and 3 have 4 attack buttons and 2 separate assist buttons, but SG is a 6 button fighter that lets you also use 2 assists. MvC1 was 6 buttons, but you could only pick 2 playable characters and the 3rd character was just used for Assists.

For example, mine point character is Valentine and I want to combo into a lockdown assist. If my team has 2 characters, then it's not a problem. I just do a combo that has s.HP or s.HKx3 and tap s.HP+s.MK or s.HK+s.MP during the 2nd or 3rd hit of s.HK (I don't remember. I'm still learning Val in the Lab). But what if I run a team of 3 characters like Valentine/Lockdown Assist/Anti-Air Assist and I only have 6 buttons on my arcade stick? How will I call Assist 1 while pressing HP/HK? I'm not saying I have this problem, but I'm curious how 6 button Arcade Stick owners deal with it. Is there some kind of different timing?
I haven't really had a problem with it. Usually I do something like Painwheel c.MP and call my assist. Painwheel's c.MP takes a long time so it's easy enough to do it then call an assist. I do the same thing with Peacock s.HP and Double j.HP. Double doesn't have a multi hitting ground normal so for her I would normally do s.MK, call lockdown assist, do the second hit of s.MK, which you have to do kind of fast if you don't want there to be a gap in blockstun, but it's not really that bad.
 
I use the Diagonal combinations, no it's not awkward.

LK+HP is A1 to help out Pad users, LP+HK apparently wasn't necessary and is just bound to nothing (literally nothing, the char won't do anything).
 
I find the diagonal inputs less awkward, because it means I don't have to move my hand back and fourth across the stick to hit the two macro buttons.

With that said, I really wish I was using the macros when I mess up and get a random normal when I'm trying to block and call assist.
 
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Vladislav_Paizis said:
What was the design choice for using diagonal button presses for Assists (LK+MP/LP+MK for Assist 1 and MP+HK/MK+HP for Assist 2)? I have an 8 button arcade stick and I can set up the last 2 buttons as Assist Macros, but how do people play 3 character teams on a 6 button Arcade Stick? Is it awkward? Marvel vs Capcom 2 and 3 have 4 attack buttons and 2 separate assist buttons, but SG is a 6 button fighter that lets you also use 2 assists. MvC1 was 6 buttons, but you could only pick 2 playable characters and the 3rd character was just used for Assists.

For example, mine point character is Valentine and I want to combo into a lockdown assist. If my team has 2 characters, then it's not a problem. I just do a combo that has s.HP or s.HKx3 and tap s.HP+s.MK or s.HK+s.MP during the 2nd or 3rd hit of s.HK (I don't remember. I'm still learning Val in the Lab). But what if I run a team of 3 characters like Valentine/Lockdown Assist/Anti-Air Assist and I only have 6 buttons on my arcade stick? How will I call Assist 1 while pressing HP/HK? I'm not saying I have this problem, but I'm curious how 6 button Arcade Stick owners deal with it. Is there some kind of different timing?


Seeing as to how I'm mr unpopular... I shouldn't be replying... But what the hell:

The buttons are because there was no other good combinations to be used:

Lp+lk, mp+mk! up+hk

Were already being used so that leaves kk and pp which overlap with super inputs so a no go there.
And then we are left with kkk and PPP which require 3 buttons and are easier to mess up and not get an assist. So the only 2 button inputs left were the ones we get to use.

Lk +hp wasn't added at first because of button distance issues. But was added in the first patch as a way for pad players to have a new macro to mess with iirc.


As for your assist question, the way I do it:

On defense or during a combo with a reset situation coming up and updo as my assist, I mash updo macro... No chance of he getting my inputs messed up at all because I'm mashing. In fact I only went to macros so I could abuse this tactic. I learned how devastating it was at evo cause of how many players there were abusing it...

#wingzero and shinatproof for putting me through the updo gauntlet right before evo.

But if I'm using my assist during a combo or whatever I just muscle memory the actual input during the combo.

For Val's hp with an assist I would just plink hp~lk... Very simple.

For her st.hk with assist 1 I would either switch my team around (lol) or I would st.hk plus macro, or I would st.hk x1 then press st.hk+mk+lp or do some move such as dash plus macro then st.hk input


But that's off the top of the head without actually trying it with her. I don't play her but it's generally trial and error to find out how you can call certain assists during combos with certain teams...for instance you might just want to call the assist out during a different normal if it makes it easier...just logical deduction.


In fact, move to assist synergies is one of my biggest time wasters in training mode.

Like what assist can I use with painwheels flight to make flight really good from ground startup? What assist can I use while throwing out hp stinger? (I like hairball and then cancel into flight so the stinger hits the air, the hairball hits the ground and painwheel has an aerial advantage no matter what the opponents position as long as she anticipated the opponents attacking choice correctly)

Etc etc
 
lol you can call assists without a macro?
chansub-global-emoticon-60aa1af305e32d49-23x30.png
 
There is some weirdness with assist calls that I think could be cleared up. For example, you can call assist 1 with lk+hp, but lp+hk doesn't do anything. It would be really nice if you could do something like call either assist from any press (e.g. if you could get assist 1 with lp+mk and assist 2 with lp+hk) so you could always do the trick where you do an input for a special then hit the two buttons for an assist call to get both a special and an assist (e.g. doing qcb+lk+mp with Filia to get a light hairball + assist 1 call). As it is only medium strength specials can go either way with it.
 
I don't know how long hit-stop has been a part of Skullgirls, but it's been a pretty long time and I've logged a lot of hours with the game since it was introduced.

I don't like it.

The metagame has shifted from reacting to supers with counter supers (pretty dumb) to instead playing around gigantic super fast reversals that do or lead to massive damage. My own team abuses this a lot, and while sometimes I feel godlike for calling out a flinch with dynamo, other times I feel like I'm not even thinking. I've started not respecting my own play, let alone people who abuse hitstop supers against me.

Where exactly is this metagame supposed to end up? At the moment it seems like it's heading towards something that discourages taking actions; something I thought Mike was critical of in SF4.
 
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i can totally understand why somebody (or even most people) would not like hit stop.

i do kind of like it though because of the way i can integrate it into my play style.

since so many supers are abusable/safe on block already, people were pretty mashy with them, and hit stop has sent that through the roof.

i am the kind of player that really likes to let people blow their resources before i truly begin my offense. having supers being so abusable reminds me of the kind of tension that exists in Super Turbo when your opponent has bar and how you have to approach that situation. it doesn't mean you don't have to take actions, it just means sometimes its wise to make a kind of action where you incite them to blow bar on nothing.

even if if its safe on block, it means you have forced them to make a decision AND blow a resource, which is always advantageous for you whether it leads to damage or not.

from this you can get to have them blow their bar AND you get to condition them for later situations where their reversal super could have been useful.


tl;dr : it reminds me of ST so i like it
 
GirlyStyle said:
even if if its safe on block, it means you have forced them to make a decision AND blow a resource, which is always advantageous for you whether it leads to damage or not.

from this you can get to have them blow their bar AND you get to condition them for later situations where their reversal super could have been useful.

The thing is, the biggest offender of making the supers safe is to do a DHC into Double's catheads or into Painwheel's install to a lesser extent. These not only make the first super safe, but also directly lead into more pressure/mixups.
 
Age said:
I don't know how long hit-stop has been a part of Skullgirls, but it's been a pretty long time and I've logged a lot of hours with the game since it was introduced.
I don't like it.
It's been there since ST, SFA, and XSF. Because without it, your supers are 65f startup moves that cost meter, whereas your DP is a 5f startup move that doesn't, and which you can choose to super out of later. Especially in SG and MvC2's case, many reversal supers lose to block+assist, or require you to spend an extra meter just to not get killed.

RemiKz said:
The thing is, the biggest offender of making the supers safe is to do a DHC into Double's catheads or into Painwheel's install to a lesser extent. These not only make the first super safe, but also directly lead into more pressure/mixups.
They also cost two bars, a fact that (like "it does damage") people seem to ignore, which I don't understand. Making your opponent spend meter is a GAIN.

I honestly can't believe this complaint is even still a thing, except I guess for the fact that the game came out without it so you could DP supers in the face on reaction. You're only post-flash countering supers in like BB and MvC3, even in SF4 they have hitstop for cryin' out loud.
 
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A small study of reversals in streetfighter:

1. They dont ever afaik have the combination of range, damage, invincibility, and safety on block.
The closest i could think would be marvel dhcs which generally dont have invincibility on startup, or if they do have massive range, they are simply pokes, they dont lead to full combo. So something like magneto punch super into hailstorm is mostly a good poke or a way to punish assists and do chip to the point. It isnt a way to get in on pressure, while invincible, into full combo on hit and pressure on block.

The closest i could really think of in streetfighter would be fadc... Which suffers from range issues... One backdash will bait any uppercut in the game to wiff and allow a huge punish EASILY. And even still, fadc is and has always been a very controversial point amongst sf4 people as well as those that dropped the game for hating the mechanic.

2. Supers that WERE hitstop unblockable that lead to full combo like those from wolverine powerup super? (Cant remember) got the unblockable ability taken away in subsequent versions.

3. Reversals have always been high risk/medium reward moves. You hit with a reversal in oldschool streetfighter, you do around 25% percent damage and reset to neutral generally speaking or you get a small pressure knockdown mixup. If you wiff, you get hit by a punish combo, if you get blocked in any version outside of the cps1 games, you get punished. And this with small range to boot... And yet reversals were still super powerful with those restrictions.


In this game of skullgirls with only 1 meter, reversals generally take on those aspects of play. You get blocked, you get punished.

HOWEVER, once certain characters get 2 meters, reversals become damn near win/win and are definitely low risk/high reward. Case in point, though this applies to many different supers:

Bella with diamond dynamo and 2 meters:

Its hitstop unblockable, has massive range, kills air pressure, kills ground pressure, is fully invincible to both attacks and throws, hits crossups as well, and throw peacock or parasoul behind her and its generally dp safe on block, and throw pw or double or even squigly behind, it goes from that to also giving pressure on block or "a better situation" sans 2 meters.

Burst baits arent particularly effective against it since its a ground super and ground burst baits tend to be super obvious or highly unsafe. Plus its best use is probably after blocking an assist and then pbgc into something like cats, or just dont pbgc and wait for the blockstun to wear off... either way, if you guessed right you get free combo which will do HELLA cause double gets bomber loops right off the bat, or you get pressure into cats on block into probably an opened up character.

Its the hitstop COMBINED WITH dhc and full combo on hit and pressure on block and range of diamond dynamo that make this so good, so.... Braindead.



Imho i dont think hitstop is the problem. Well, i dont think reverting it back to what it was is a good idea. Reversals are a good thing. Calling people out on their predictable offense is a good thing. Having safety on block and full combo on hit is the bad thing imho.

So, i think there are a few solutions though i dont think all would be liked:

1. Cant dhc out to a different super on block.
2. Can only dhc if it is part of a combo that had at least one normal in it. (Meaning reversals wouldnt be dhc'able, but pretty much every regular combo would)
3. Assess what supers deserve to be hitstop unblockable based on range/priority/actual ease of baiting.


And probably more, but yeah, seriously, i agree with age that as it stands its just a whore out this super type of game. Supers such as bigbands and bellas that cover huge amounts of the screen, imho shouldnt be able to dhc to safe on block supers so easily for such stupid damage.
 
RemiKz said:
The thing is, the biggest offender of making the supers safe is to do a DHC into Double's catheads or into Painwheel's install to a lesser extent. These not only make the first super safe, but also directly lead into more pressure/mixups.

Yeah but that is both resource AND team synergy reliant, and there are things which can be done about that (i.e. snaps).

Also out of a lot of cathead/install DHC setups on block have gaps where if they are continuing pressure via button press there are gaps for your own reversal, so if your opponent is someone who is into that kind of thing, there is something you can do about it
 
GirlyStyle said:
Yeah but that is both resource AND team synergy reliant, and there are things which can be done about that (i.e. snaps).

Also out of a lot of cathead/install DHC setups on block have gaps where if they are continuing pressure via button press there are gaps for your own reversal, so if your opponent is someone who is into that kind of thing, there is something you can do about it

Trying a reversal against blocked super > dhc into catheads is usually way more risky than it is worth trying. Granted you could try it on an install DHC, painwheel is almost always at frame advantage which makes the situation far more favorable for her.

A lot of people use Double for the very reason that she literally makes any team she is on better. You got one of the top 3 assists in the game on-top of fantastic DHC options. The few times I do anything about it is with an alpha counter into something like Fenrir or Showstoper. Sure a mashed super > dhc into catheads costs resources, but the risk is VERY LOW compared to the high payout, which makes 2 meters kind of cheap. It gets you out of pressure, it has the possibility of leading into big damage, is safe on block, and completely turns the situation into an advantageous one.
 
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RemiKz said:
Trying a reversal against blocked super > dhc into catheads is usually way more risky than it is worth trying. Granted you could try it on an install DHC, painwheel is almost always at frame advantage which makes the situation far more favorable for her.

A lot of people use Double for the very reason that she literally makes any team she is on better. You got one of the top 3 assists in the game on-top of fantastic DHC options. The few times I do anything about it is with an alpha counter into something like Fenrir or Showstoper. Sure a mashed super > dhc into catheads costs resources, but the risk is VERY LOW compared to the high payout, which makes 2 meters kind of cheap. It gets you out of pressure, it has the possibility of leading into big damage, is safe on block, and completely turns the situation into an advantageous one.

yeah i agree the case i was talking about is much less against catheads then install, so that one is very situational, but there are still supers which punish it outright. i totally agree with you on your points of double and why thats part of the reason i play her myself, but i was more just trying to point out its notes helpless as people make it out to be. they are STILL spending two bar for something that could just end in an even neutral situation though if your block is on point.


PW is at frame advantage, but she still has to engage in an action which leaves her vulnerable. Any kind of intricate mixup she goes to can be read and punished with your own reversal, and if they DON'T apply pressure then they are kind of wasting PW's optimal posititiong and the time on the super.

However I feel like install is on hit what catheads is on block.

I disagree with you saying that the catheads DHC "completely turns the situation into an advantageous one" because you are ruling the possibility of getting out of catheads pressure and them having wasting two bars to not be punished. In a world without macro heads, i feel like catheads is something which is reasonable to block, particularly if you are familiar with the options in double's deck

Like I said in my initial post, a lot of this has to do with my specific play style and how I use meter management, and I understand how for others its really different.
 
Mike_Z said:
It's been there since ST, SFA, and XSF. Because without it, your supers are 65f startup moves that cost meter, whereas your DP is a 5f startup move that doesn't, and which you can choose to super out of later. Especially in SG and MvC2's case, many reversal supers lose to block+assist, or require you to spend an extra meter just to not get killed.

They also cost two bars, a fact that (like "it does damage") people seem to ignore, which I don't understand. Making your opponent spend meter is a GAIN.

I honestly can't believe this complaint is even still a thing, except I guess for the fact that the game came out without it so you could DP supers in the face on reaction. You're only post-flash countering supers in like BB and MvC3, even in SF4 they have hitstop for cryin' out loud.

It's a complaint because SG shouldn't be a game where you default to sit and wait. It should be a game where you hit the buttons and if you hit the right ones you win. (opinions)

The big changes around this were;
-decreased meter gain
-undizzy/combo shortening

By themselves, they do a good job of encouraging reset heavy pressure, more neutral game, whatever else.

-hitstop

By itself fixes the silly 65 frame move thing, makes meters more valuable, gives some characters more combo options.

Together you get a situation where one person gets a hit, or lockdown pressure. They want to go for a reset/mixup. The defender chooses super/notsuper (exaggerating for effect), if the attacker was doing anything like an attack, now the defender has a combo into the same situation...until they both finally run out of meter and actual defending/mindgames can go on. Alternatively the attacker just stops and waits, and either gets another combo or both players sit there looking dumb.

It may just be me, but I suspect frameskip also plays into this playstyle, since mixups get harder to legitimately defend against as the game gets faster. I know I got sick of trying to block Filia and just started doing super when I saw a reset point, regardless of high/low/throw/crossup.
 
Age said:
It's a complaint because SG shouldn't be a game where you default to sit and wait. It should be a game where you hit the buttons and if you hit the right ones you win. (opinions)

The big changes around this were;
-decreased meter gain
-undizzy/combo shortening

By themselves, they do a good job of encouraging reset heavy pressure, more neutral game, whatever else.

-hitstop

By itself fixes the silly 65 frame move thing, makes meters more valuable, gives some characters more combo options.

Together you get a situation where one person gets a hit, or lockdown pressure. They want to go for a reset/mixup. The defender chooses super/notsuper (exaggerating for effect), if the attacker was doing anything like an attack, now the defender has a combo into the same situation...until they both finally run out of meter and actual defending/mindgames can go on. Alternatively the attacker just stops and waits, and either gets another combo or both players sit there looking dumb.

It may just be me, but I suspect frameskip also plays into this playstyle, since mixups get harder to legitimately defend against as the game gets faster. I know I got sick of trying to block Filia and just started doing super when I saw a reset point, regardless of high/low/throw/crossup.


again i can understand this mentality, but from my point of view i feel like there is an over simplification of what "doing nothing" means in the SG neutral game
 
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