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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

Going back to the Fortune discussion...
Disregarding any claims that Fortune may be top 3/top tier/overrated/the absolute best, asking around it seems to be generally agreed that head-on Fortune deals too much damage and rekkas build too much meter (especially at the end of a combo). Non-Fortune players say this because she gets ~50% damage off a cr.LK and builds nearly a full bar. Fortune players say this because this also lowers the incentive to ever take the head off even in matchups where headless is the stronger option. Headless damage/meter gain/pressure is fine as is, but head-on could definitely use a hit in overall damage dealt as well as the meter build of her rekkas. She already has among the best mobility in the game and head-on on its own is really good at getting back in on an opponent, so I would argue it's fair that she lose a bit of damage.

As for tweaks to headless, I still stand by my suggestions given a few pages back of looking into giving Headbutt/Zoom a larger vertical hitbox to keep opponents from so easily jumping to avoid the head or catch them back on the way down, as well as having JUST Sneeze (as opposed to Headbutt/Zoom as well since those can cancel into Sneeze) not pull the opponent down towards the ground on block so that if the head does manage to catch the opponent jumping, they can't retreat back to the air so quickly. This would ideally help headless function better in neutral and also keep the opponent from simply upbacking out of a number of headless specific mixups. Nobody really responded to these ideas last time, which is why I'm bringing it back up.

The match ups where headless Fortune wins in neutral over head-on Fortune (Parasoul, Bella, Big Band doesn't have fun with either form but headless is much riskier for Fortune) is due to the fact that those characters can't control Fortune's air space too well once they leave the ground. The rest of the cast has ways to pressure either the head or the body from the air, or just outright get into a position where the head is useless. That's why a lot of Fortune players feel like headless is more of a liability in a number of matchups, so giving headless some better ground control/anti-jump options could give more reasons for Fortune to go headless in neutral. I play headless pretty often, but unless I'm against Parasoul, Bella, or Big Band, I only ever really take the head off mid-combo when I can get the opponent to the corner. Any other time is just... accidental. Against Painwheel and potentially Robo according to SonicFox, it's just suicidal.

It'd be nice if the head would take slightly less unscaled damage, but I don't really have much to say here. I thought @Stuff 's points seemed fair.
 
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I'm guessing the retail patch won't be for quite a while. They're still working on those new intro animations, and getting lobbies working on console. And then once everything is done they still have to wait on certification from Sony and MS.
 
seconding not rushing the patch, as much as I would love to see the game done seeing as how this is the BIG FINALE LAST PATCH it'd really be better not to rush it.

Personally I don't really feel like any characters in the game (beta) right now need more tools. Not really anyone where i feel like "man they should really be able to do <x>", I just think a few chars could be toned down. Robo still feels really strong, her chip damage is absolutely absurd for how often she can shoot beams, I'd personally like to see it toned down a bit. As Khaos mentioned headon fortune also has more damage and meter build than she probably should. I actually feel like fukua is in a pretty good spot, her setplay is strong of course but she doesn't feel overpowering to me (though maybe thats just because no one has found the wild stuff yet? idk)

edit:
decided i should preemptively respond to the (likely?) response of "you're just mad because you lost to mpgame in kenin's tournament get gud"; i can't reliably get in on mcpeanuts' peacock with my filia either despite that being a good MU for me and I'm not complaining about peacock being too good, because i know peanuts is better than me. mpgame is better than me too, and i don't think her keepaway game is too good just that i think her zoning does too much chip
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
to keep opponents from so easily jumping to avoid the head
fortune_nobiru.png
 
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That especially kills me since I just recently had a talk with @hilaryyy and there was mention of how hilarious VERY GOOD headless getting Nobiru would be.
 
As much as I was asking for Install buffs before, looking at the patch notes HI totally seems like its worth 2 bars now. The fact that all of her armored moves get armor on frame 1, plus 1 more hit of armor means pretty much any of her normals are pseudo-reversals, which is one of her biggest weakness as a character. The change to her installed throw and the fact that install won't run out mid combo means you can consistently do Install combos off of her throw and regular confirms, which are now much easier to get because of the armor. You are basically spending 2 bars to get a solid confirm which is potentially more valuable as a comeback tool than an extra 1k at the end of a combo. As it is right now, HI is waaaay too good to only cost 1 bar.
 
Should big band be able to be counter thrown out of a parry attempt?

I'm comparing BB's parry surviveabilty to painwheels install armor surviveability (not usually good logic to do this but here we go). PW can be counter thrown out of all her install armor normals if she is relying on install armor to keep her alive during a final blow. This isn't a problem cause it's a temporary not quite invincible last ditch survival strategy.

With BB's parry improvements and not dying from chip as long as he is parrying he is able to survive final blows forever as long as he doesn't get grabbed and it costs nothing. So he is at no risk for parrying as often as possible with his new easy parry. With painwheel at least she has to worry about getting counter damage for using a really good option. There should be some reason not to parry.

The main problem I see with the idea of getting counter thrown for attempting a parry is how can big band not accidentally attempt a parry.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
That especially kills me since I just recently had a talk with @hilaryyy and there was mention of how hilarious VERY GOOD headless getting Nobiru would be.
I actually suggested a completely vertical zoom/sneeze option for the head way back when.

On a side-note, wasn't head-on fortune changed to be the damage dealing mode where as headless is the one with more tools? That was supposed to be the appeal of head-on.
 
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"yeah, mike'll love [Nobiru]."

I'd agree with Khaos on ground control and air presence; there's not really a lot of incentive to be on the ground against her, and no particularly unique deincentivizations for enemy air approaches without specialized assists like Excella, H-Buer, or A-Train.

Small sneeze change might be cool and not-busted. Varying arcs/heights (light = crouch height arc, medium = normal, heavy = straight up) might be neat for moving the head in creative ways, give some more judicial air presence, and help her get between modes situationally instead of trying to just stay in one or the other all the time. I realize the similarities to mawaru/nobiru here, but there may be fun ways to do something similar without being too wild.

Bullying the head with disjoint/projectiles is also a little too easy as is, but idk. You could argue that if you hit Eddie/Ignis/Nirvana there are ramifications for bad puppet deployment, and Headless fortune has no real resource commitment outside of potential damage to the head. None of the other examples put into a situation where they now have to go fetch their puppet from a fencer while wearing boxing gloves though.
 
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Tank said:
So he is at no risk for parrying as often as possible with his new easy parry. With painwheel at least she has to worry about getting counter damage for using a really good option. There should be some reason not to parry.

The main problem I see with the idea of getting counter thrown for attempting a parry is how can big band not accidentally attempt a parry.

Big Band has a risk with parrying.
He has to guess high / low and if he gets it wrong he dies.
If he gets thrown while he is busy trying to parry he has to tech.
If he mistimes any of his parries he dies.

I really don't think Big Band having easier parries is going to lead to 30 second come backs with him parrying every single attack the opponent throws at him.

Also him just trying to walk forward or jump forward would count as a parry attempt, so you'd throw him and he would randomly get counter hit for bonus undizzy and more damage while not being able to tech.
 
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Tank said:
Should big band be able to be counter thrown out of a parry attempt?

[...]

The main problem I see with the idea of getting counter thrown for attempting a parry is how can big band not accidentally attempt a parry.
You've answered your own question.
 
I wasn't even here when that was a meme, but I guess everybody missed the joke...

Yeah I can totally see that the final patch would have to wait for the new animations to be finished first. Makes sense to me.
 
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RemiKz said:
On a side-note, wasn't head-on fortune changed to be the damage dealing mode where as headless is the one with more tools? That was supposed to be the appeal of head-on.
We're all just really really indecisive. We went from, "Head-on is useless. Give it more damage," to, "Head-on is still weak. Buff j.HP and give head-on the invincible DP," and now this.
 
Fukua players:

What is the common opinion regarding ONLY her neutral before and after the M and L shadow changes?

I Particularly think her neutral as a character (not considering assists) got somewhat worse. Werent the changes supposed to "Leave her amazing neutral the same"?
 
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The way I've always thought of Fortune is:

Head-on can get in has a defense and gets great carry for positioning or happy birthdays (but for some reason also has high damage because I dunno)

Headless has the tools to stay in but has no defense and can now use H fiber whenever she wants which now works as a better AA since any hit will give you a follow up.

but because of head-on doing so much damage I just stick with it instead as you run similar risks:

head-on + assist: if I fuck up I lose a character (maybe both? it varies)
headless by herself: if I fuck up I lose a character

You're probably still going to use your assist as headless since it only makes your set up that much better. (so they're sort've similar to me but the argument already happened and it doesn't look like this reasoning matters) and if it's fortune last I'd still gamble with head-on because if I'm at low health and have the head near me (which I will because her combos use it) if I decide to bait something I can still die because not only do I take chip damage I also take that 50% unscaled and that sucks. Doing a set up of course will lead to death too. Head-on can still potentially survive either of those scenarios. That's not to say I think one is better than the other, I think both are special in their own way and succeed in different things. I use both and like them both though I use headless less because I run a trio and there's no such thing as a 1.00 damage ratio against me and 50% unscaled for a trio is horrendously scary to me and most headless players are duos so it's not as scary for them having more health and having 1.00 damage ratios against them unless it's against a solo.

(I think mike said he was already gonna change the head scaling thing but I also think everyone misunderstood my proposition and instead thought I wanted to lower damage against her in general. I don't mind that she gets TOD'd I just don't want it to be so easy when fortune is in a trio.)

Another thing that bugs me is that there aren't too many ways to switch back and forth between the forms which I think would be so cool (she already sorta can based on head positioning zoom > head recall otg 5LP) but more cool ways to do it would be awesome.

Fortune has the ability to cancel her head normals (nom and sneeze are specials) to recall but unfortunately you can't always do them (and combo afterwards). I always loved the idea of a character that can switch between forms to do cool things (like wow I hit you with this sweet mixup as headless but I think I want to have a defense after this so I'm going to sacrifice damage for it) and afaik sg doesn't have one but this might also be a huge change I dunno after fukua I don't think I should expect huge gameplay changes.
(I know you can just do tk H gato and recall the head and after kills)

She just seems like a character that had no previous layout to follow so you can't really balance her since she doesn't seem to follow any character type and just ends up feeling like two different characters with nothing that really binds them together. Both forms are really good so I think it just ends up falling to what a person prefers and it always leaves one form by itself. (It's been like that since her creation)

Hopefully all I wrote was coherent, sorry for the bother.
 
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Just to clarify, I by no means was implying he should set a date and rush the patch.

Mike knows me well enough to know I was not implying that in any way, shape or form.
 
In regards to a Head-on Fortune damage nerf: I think that damage from the H Gato loop starter should be lowered (though it should still give more damage than a normal starter as it is harder to setup) since it gives pretty crazy damage afterwards regardless of if you continue the loop or do a more typical combo. Other than that though I think her damage is fine and doesn't really need to be changed.

Head-on doesn't get much more damage than headless (and in relation to the rest of the cast her damage is about average).
Midscreen: head-on - 7.5k, headless - ~7k depending on head-position of course
Corner: head-on -8.7k, headless (from sandwich positioning) - 8.4k except vs BB and DB, if the head is behind you then 7.5k
I don't know how much headless gets off of a HCH combo but I imagine in that case it is quite a bit less than head-on.

So head-on is getting roughly 500 damage more than headless typically. Given that, I don't think nerfing head-on's damage will make more people play headless unless it is nerfed into the ground (and then it's just because headless would be outright better so you have the same problem but reversed). I can't speak for other people but personally, I mainly play head-on because she is just a much easier character to learn and use (though I am trying to learn headless cus I think her pressure is great). Relative to the rest of the cast I'd say headless is the hardest character to learn so of course there aren't going to be that many people who put in the time to learn her. I think lowering the damage headless takes would be very good and help make playing her less scary, but apart from that and the H Gato starter nerf, I don't think either version really needs any changes.
 
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missingno said:
You've answered your own question.
I stated the obvious at the end so a different solution could be found.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Going back to the Fortune discussion...
Nothing can push airborne opponents upward on block. Things like Excella are unblockable if your velocity is upward, so this is a game-wide rule.
I can increase the hitstop vs airborne opponents, which sort of has the same effect.

I'm all for lowering headon's damage a bit, but the meter gain on rekkas is sort of a unique feature for her now even though it was initially a copypaste error. :^P

I already lowered the head's damage taken by multiplying by the body's damage scaling down to 40%; so instead of flat 1/3 it takes 1/3 * (max of damage scaling or 40%). Single hits are unaffected but taunted SSJ in corner 5286 normally, 8474 on both before -> 7383 now; Copter+Dynamo in corner 3267 normally, 5183 on both before -> 4056 now; Death Crawl in corner 2367 normally, 3915 on both before -> 3298 now. @Stuff I sort of mind that she gets ToD'd, and it is impossible (or at least counterintuitive) just to change it on a trio. Solo BB vs trio Fortune now has to do an entire corner combo to kill her, as opposed to just c.MK xx M Brass xx taunted SSJ. It's something! :^)

re: Nobiru
(Nobiru is fine, it's the REST of Eddie that's stupid)
what about just making Sneeze go more vertical and higher? I gots no problem with that, nor with increasing the head's invincibility on it. It would make it harder to combo off, but I'd leave the Feral Edge version the same.

I also had another idea. :^)

@Lex
Headless doesn't get L Fiber j.HP combos, which also offers ridiculous corner carry and happy birthday doublesnaps. I'm WAY okay with THAT doing less damage.

Tank said:
So he is at no risk for parrying as often as possible with his new easy parry.
Do note that the window to parry at neutral is EXACTLY the same as before, now. The difference is how long you can hold the stick and have it still be a valid parry. So Band as a character is not any better at staying alive than he previously was, there is just a slightly lower execution barrier. After the first parry, multiple parries is significantly easier now, but again, that's a lower execution barrier rather than any actual difference in ability for Band at neutral.
Parrying projectiles high and low is a buff, but since he's got the hardest time dealing with zoning this seems fine to me. And since the high and low parries use each others' timers, he is actually significantly worse at parrying zoning patterns or pressure involving assists if he has to make multiple attempts.
Since he's the only character in the entire game that everyone has an instant overhead on, up close he is ALWAYS guessing high-low-throw, for which a wrong parry gets you killed.
In short, I don't think he needs to get CH for attempting a wrong parry because of the extra risk he incurs just by being big.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Band as a character is not any better at staying alive than he previously was, there is just a slightly lower execution barrier. After the first parry, multiple parries is significantly easier now, but again, that's a lower execution barrier
Mike_Z said:
Making a 1f link into a not-1f link qualifies at least as a "minor" buff, regardless of how eliteist your attitude is. :^\
:^)
 
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Well to be fair you could say...

"Parasoul doesn't have any better combos than she previously did, there is just a slightly lower execution barrier.
After the tear shot, the follow up is significantly easier now, but again, that's a lower execution barrier."

Neither of these cases are changing what the character CAN do... just how difficult it is to do it.

It's the same as how
"Making a difficult parry into a not-so-difficult parry qualifies at least as a "minor" buff."
is also pretty true at the same level as the Parasoul change.
 
@Mike_Z if you made sneeze go vertical and higher would you also be OK with increasing hitstun so you would have time to jump and do Feral Edge or start a combo with j.MP/j.MK or something? The way it works now it's easy to combo off of if you're good with the character, but it's limited as a space control tool/reversal. Personally, I'd rather have it be a good space control tool/reversal that requires a bit of effort/execution to combo off of, because that makes it consistent with the rest of the character. She can convert off of a lot of situations, but you have to recognize how to actually convert in those situations and pay attention to where the head is and how it's actually hitting them in neutral.

I always saw headless as a character that has neutral tools that control space uniquely, as well as unique pressure that's among the tightest in the game. The drawback is limited reversals and higher damage taken by the player. I'd just like those tools to shine a bit more than they currently do (basically what @KhaosMuffins is saying).

Headless is good. But head on is easier, does more damage, and honestly just easier to play than headless. It's always felt super silly to me that head on gets better corner carry, damage, and a better reversal. The damage nerf to that stuff is far overdue. I've never seen it as an issue of "head on isn't good", I've always seen it as "this other form of the character is way easier, why bother". This of course, is just my opinion, and not a comparison of the two forms and what they bring to the table.
 
Mike_Z said:
I'm all for lowering headon's damage a bit, but the meter gain on rekkas is sort of a unique feature for her now even though it was initially a copypaste error. :^P
Then can I have double's air grab hitting assists also back? Since that was also a copypaste error. If not, could you fix rekka meter gain? She should not be able to build nearly a full bar without assists.
 
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I also think head ons damage is too high and could use a damage nerf, but I also feel that part of this is because of rekkas building an absurd amount of meter that will almost always give her the meter she needs to super or DHC. I think her rekka meter gain should be fixed and not left in as a feature.
 
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Pen_Ninja said:
Well to be fair you could say...

"Parasoul doesn't have any better combos than she previously did, there is just a slightly lower execution barrier.
After the tear shot, the follow up is significantly easier now, but again, that's a lower execution barrier."

Neither of these cases are changing what the character CAN do... just how difficult it is to do it.

It's the same as how
"Making a difficult parry into a not-so-difficult parry qualifies at least as a "minor" buff."
is also pretty true at the same level as the Parasoul change.
Still a buff, however minor. Having easier access to a more damaging combo in any situation is a buff. Having easier consecutive parries over X amount of time is a buff. I don't know what you want Mike to do other than break the characters
 
The only time I've ever seen fortune build a bar in one combo was in a CH combo and that's fine 'cause you build 2 times more from me even doing it. (even her meter build combo doesn't build one)

and because she's not much of a team player (fiber is her only used assist which is also hard to use and she gives no safe dhcs) I think her being a good battery should stay.
 
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Hi! @Mike_Z I'm not sure if this has been asked already but is there anyway possible that you could play endless without encountering Marie. I can understand the whole she's part of the game/git gud argument. but it's a massive shift from actually trying to fight the characters that I would normally see and honing setups and stuff when I'm offline or testing setups in the middle of a match instead of in training mode. Currently, I'm going through arcade and just setting it to best of 7, but at the same time it would be rather nice to have an option not to beat, or skip, or not to encounter Marie in endless especially since I can see her in arcade mode. Another idea would be have an option to auto random in CPU fight. Might not be entirely beta related but I thought that this would still improve the QOL for players who want to fight a ton of random CPU's and random teams and random assist without having to quit game>choose number>randomx3>a. every match.

Especially with that health deficit if you don't get a perfect in endless. you can be randomly playing fine experimenting a new team then marie and your round ends or you get by just barely. If the answer is "no" is it possible I ould get the reasoning as to why? You typically (at least 98%) have really good reasons for things that are "weird".

Thanks!

P.S. I'm sorry about spelling errors etc. I'm on percoset right now after my mouth surgery and I'm having to ignore the shadow man climbing in my window trying to kill me.
 
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I have a few Squigly buff suggestions that I don't think are very unreasonable to be added.

1) Have heavy dive kick be a hit grab so that it is able to break armor.
2) Be able to DHC out of Daisy Pusher after the damage occurs.
 
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The only damage nerf I think she needs is to H Gato, FWIW

Maybe a tad lower meter gain on her H Rekka. But honestly, her being a battery is really important to a lot of teams that want a rushdown battery that's not a keepaway one (tbh, my team doesn't care for her meter build).

Sneeze going higher and more hitstop on airborne opponents would help plenty, yes
 
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Fuzzy_Snugs said:
I have a few Squigly buff suggestions that I don't think are very unreasonable to be added.

1) Have heavy dive kick be a hit grab so that it is able to break armor.
2) Be able to DHC out of Daisy Pusher after the damage occurs.
Man I was all ready for this to be some meme shit but it's like some real suggestions. OK. The Daisy Pusher change sounds fine, I've always felt it was weird it didn't work like that already. Why do you need the dive kick to break armor though?
 
I don't need it to. I just think it's strange for it to arbitrarily be a move that does a billion years of hit stun rather than a hit grab.
 
Fuzzy_Snugs said:
I don't need it to. I just think it's strange for it to arbitrarily be a move that does a billion years of hit stun rather than a hit grab.
I mean you're not wrong. There's a lot of gameplay ramifications of this though. Like, divekicking the skeleton and having it turn back into Eliza sounds weird to me. Using the dive kick to dodge projectiles that are already on the screen sounds weird too (which you'd be able to do since you can't be hit during the canned animation of a hit grab). You'd also lose the ability to hit two characters with it, since hit grabs can't hit assists.
 
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While we're on the subject of supers that can't be DHC'd at the end, what if Robo could DHC her explosion?
 
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