Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

[FXFGamer]

This seems really complicated for getting a bunch of different methods to do the same thing.
Getting a fast but not too fast Shadow is really hard with this.

If you hold it for a little bit too long at the start now it's on release instead of on second press.
If you hold it a little bit too short at the start now it's on second press instead of on release.

In the heat of a high level match, worrying about these kind of things will get you killed and feel frustrating.

If you want a fast but not too fast shadow, simply delay the moment you send your as-fast-as-possible-shadow. That's what people used to do before the update in order to connect, for example, xx.L Forever a clone, c.HP, xx.H Forever a clone. It's still possible to that after the update (Although the damage is kinda worthless but that's not the point). If this is still a problem to someone's eyes, I guess there should be an option for players to switch between the original controls and the ones I proposed. I think it's better than making people develop health issues...

 

[Mr Peck]

If you want a fast but not too fast shadow, simply delay the moment you send your as-fast-as-possible-shadow.

One of the most common uses for a "fast but not too fast" Peacock shadow is to try and bait someone into jumping or throwing out a move while zoning from fullscreen. You're relying on the fact that they see you start charging the shadow, so you can drop it on them right as they think it's safe to move. It also means Peacock's opponent can't OS every fullscreen item drop by blocking for half a second then jumping/dashing/whatever. Your control scheme would mean that Peacock's opponent could always react to Peacock holding an H item then dash forward and avoid it before Peacock would be allowed to drop it.

Fukua would probably lose similar setups or frame traps with her new shadows, but they were only just added so I haven't seen much tech with them yet.

I can't comment on whether or not holding a button gives people health issues because I play on stick.

 

[Lawnalog]

I can't comment on whether or not holding a button gives people health issues because I play on stick.

I've never had any problem with holding buttons on pad.

 

[skull person]

If you want a fast but not too fast shadow, simply delay the moment you send your as-fast-as-possible-shadow. That's what people used to do before the update in order to connect, for example, xx.L Forever a clone, c.HP, xx.H Forever a clone. It's still possible to that after the update (Although the damage is kinda worthless but that's not the point). If this is still a problem to someone's eyes, I guess there should be an option for players to switch between the original controls and the ones I proposed. I think it's better than making people develop health issues...

For combos, I agree it's not an issue.

It's more for neutral game especially for Peacock like Mr.Peck pointed out.

If you want a delayed but not too delayed shadow to drop on your opponent, you want to do the input early while you're safe so that you can't be counter hit out of the start up.

This means you have to worry about how fast you're about to drop it, and it would delay your drop time if you had to double tap because you notice they are dashing in.

The same applies to Fukua if she wants to use it that way.

Switching control scheme is a no go too unfortunately.

That would add time to the character select screen for tournament play, and require new UI implementation. The string used for the option on whatever screen would have to be translated and localized and then checked by a bunch of companies, it's a lot of work.

The only way I could see it working is like hold a button combination during the loading screen to enable this mode, but that would also interfere with holding a button combination to switch team order during loading :S.

 

[Pen_Ninja]

Some people play Guilty Gear Zato/Eddie on pad... You should be fine.

 

[BlueFeena]

Edit: I really screwed this post up. Please see this correction I made and the post Mike made. (Original post left intact, below.)

At the extreme risk of being pelted with tomatoes...

I'd like to protest the damage nerf to Eliza's level 3. The rationale being:

* Most importantly, Eliza's level 3 was an immense intimidation tool when used in any sort of team. The damage nerf does not scale it by a mere 600, rather she tends to lose up to 1,500 - 2,000(!!!) in max damage scaling combos. This is is not insignificant and as a damage character I feel that her level 3 should remain as it is. This is the also the only super she has that has any functional use outside of combos, furthering its intimidation and usefulness.

* Eliza's heavy meter usage with Sekhmet / Buther's Blade assist hinders her from quickly acquiring her level 3. This is alone I feel balances out the move's power considerably; she must either forego Sekhmet links / Sekhmet general usage to build her meter and forfeit the Butcher's Blade assist and be moderate with DHCS and other point character supers in order to rapidly build up to her level 3 or a level 4 TOD.

* Eliza seems to be losing popularity, with many of the people I've incidentally talked to at SlapFights and Get Gr8 not having good opinions of this character. Since Combo Breaker, it seems people have been abandoning Eliza; she pulled dead last -- zero players -- in terms of usage. Chopping the damage out of one of her scariest moves is not going to help.

I was going to mention solo play as well, but that's rendered moot by the following demonstration:

The Scott Whale 12,+++ combo now hits for about 1.5k - 2k less. Here's the original combo:

After nerf, 2k less damage. Sorry for the lack of a proper s.lp x3 link.

The TOD is still present in 1 vs 3, thankfully. This will likely soften the damage considerably in a 1 vs 2 scenario, however.

For the rest of the patch in general, I was largely in favor of the game -- entire cast baring R. Fortune -- remaining the same. I apologize for being "that guy" in a patches thread and this post is intended to be helpful and level headed.[/url]

 

[JSlayerXero]

Was sad to see that this didn't get fixed. If you don't feel like reading it, basically, Hatred Install gives 1 extra point of armor to every one of Painwheel's Hatred Guard moves except Buer Overdrive. While no, this doesn't matter often, Blown Kiss is one of those rare special moves that does exactly four hits and if I'm going to be spending 5 super meter to counter a level 1 I want to actually know I'll succeed at this. All my previous testing basically yielded that unless a rare situation happened where I went through part of the attack instead of getting hit all four times, I would lose a 5 meter play to a level 1 super.

That said, I don't have too much to say about the changes since I probably never reached mid-tier play, but I'm excited to see how this changes things.

Edit: I am fine with a level 1 super beating Painwheel using 5 super meter, if it makes sense. However, the lack of extra armor looked like a bug and I got confirmation that's a bug though. I just like finding bugs 'n' stuff so I hope this will be fixed soon. Right now it's rather arbitrary if Buer Overdrive goes through it or not in general.

 

[Lex]

@BlueFeena you aren't doing the same combo in your video as Scott did. You miss out the cr.LK in the starter, use L, H DP instead of M, H DP, you add in a j.LK in the chain after j.HK, you miss the final part of MK after the air chain, in the final chain you use cr.MK instead of MK and you don't do the final hit of HP before cancelling it into Osiris Spiral. Try the combo again and see if you are still losing that much damage.

Also, you get meter really quickly in this game so getting lvl 3 as Eliza really isn't that hard IMO. You also seem to be implying in your final point that Eliza is one of the weaker characters and I very much disagree with that.

 

[Zidiane]

* Most importantly, Eliza's level 3 was an immense intimidation tool when used in any sort of team.

* Eliza's heavy meter usage with Sekhmet / Buther's Blade assist hinders her from quickly acquiring her level 3.

As far as intimidation, I don't think this make Eliza that much less scary. It's honestly fine that you can't kill in one touch solo. You don't need to (this coming from the SDE/MDE Solo TOD Bella player). Her Sekhmet assist are some of the most powerful in the game, that's why they cost meter. You can choose to use them as assists, or you can use throne/osiris, or play her point. You aren't forced to gimp your meter.

Honestly feel like Eliza needs some more utility on her specials, if anything. Throne could be better, and so could the grab servant. The opponent can avoid the command grab by holding back at neutral, something that's never made sense to me from the beginning.

 

[cloudKing211]

Was sad to see that this didn't get fixed. If you don't feel like reading it, basically, Hatred Install gives 1 extra point of armor to every one of Painwheel's Hatred Guard moves except Buer Overdrive. While no, this doesn't matter often, Blown Kiss is one of those rare special moves that does exactly four hits and if I'm going to be spending 5 super meter to counter a level 1 I want to actually know I'll succeed at this. All my previous testing basically yielded that unless a rare situation happened where I went through part of the attack instead of getting hit all four times, I would lose a 5 meter play to a level 1 super.

That said, I don't have too much to say about the changes since I probably never reached mid-tier play, but I'm excited to see how this changes things.

Can you not deathcrawl through her fireball and punish?

 

[Adeveis]

I feel like robo fortune got too big of a buff. I'm fine with her being a more powerful zoner but I feel like she didn't quite take a big enough hit in her rushdown. Her beam damage was buffed and recovery has been reduced, she can do two beams before touching the ground so she gets things like jump M beam > brass assist > Jump h beam, knock back on moves were changed to give her more space to run away and magnet is a hard knockdown. She also has a pretty good reversal now. Mine is safe on block, activates very fast and trades in robo's favor every single time. All in all nice changes but she still has the fastest dash in the game and double jump cancels.

Spoiler

Just from watching the first match alone anyone can see her keep away isn't terrible. Coupled with her speed that allows her to catch you off guard made her very strong at neutral. Now she is significantly better at keep away, has probably the best reversal now, and can still dash up into whatever in half a second. I don't think damage nerf is enough. If that was the case, people would have stopped calling fukua bs when she got a damage nerf like 2 patches ago. If anything I'd like to try @Liam idea to make it so she can't double jump cancel her normals on block. If she is gonna get a more keep away style, she doesn't really need that kind of offense anymore. Also, mine is pretty ridiculous.

 

[skull person]

I will respond to this when I am home.
I'd like to talk about these concerns.

 

[hilaryyy]

Can you make a list?
Might be worth looking into if it's a few pixels.

git gud problem; went through and tested.

if done with the first frame airdash shortcut, jLP will connect correctly on everyone.

if delays are needed jLK and jMP works on everyone jLP doesn't.

 

[hilaryyy]

If she is gonna get a more keep away style, she doesn't really need that kind of offense anymore. Also, mine is pretty ridiculous.

There are characters in quite a few games that are primarily long-range zoners, but still have excellent offensive options up close.

Typically weak/eploitable mid-range, and I feel like that'll be Robo.

 

[PME]

I disagree, the damage nerf was big enough where her new zoning evens out the damage overall I feel.

jump M beam > brass assist > Jump h beam

This can just be ducked in a lot of cases and you can punish brass with many crouching normals.
Magnet being a hard knockdown still doesn't give you enough time to make a tricky, meaty crossup on wakeup, only enough to really run away or setup oki pressure.
Magnet's invincibility frames changing is... how to explain this..
I reversal'd with it anyway just to dhc out, but it can still be checked on startup if they meatied my wakeup.
Now that it has strike-invincibility frames instead of grab ones simply changes what you meaty her with. Especially since she'd have to M Danger as a hard read on wakeup, and if she jumped and did a rising attack, that can be covered with meaty grab + assist.
But Mine on block... she still doesn't have a normal that lets her go into Mine as a true blockstring, even with the added speed, and it's half as plus on block as before. HOWEVER, she can now set up frame traps with it, which is really strong imo. I'll think of a fair suggestion to nerf this, while also considering that she's still using up one of her resources for it.

I still thought her keepaway was terrible in her pre-patch version, I just used her in the way she was originally meant to be played; as a character who forced you to advance the way she wanted you to advance.

 

[JSlayerXero]

Can you not deathcrawl through her fireball and punish?

1. Not if you do it too early. Though that's just a matter of git gud on my part.
2. I've never actually had 5 super meter with which to pull this off. However I like to do research in the training room and this is just something that seemed really inconsistent and while I know it's an edge-case, I think it can matter. Plus, I got confirmation that this is a bug. I'll probably just have to wait for them to tick off more important things until they get to this.
3. This is not the only time where a 4th hit of super armor could be helpful. It can, in theory, help to beat other projectile supers like on Parasoul's Inferno Brigade and Robo-Fortune Catastrophe Cannon. Fukua is just the one where it would be easiest to use it against if Painwheel actually had her extra hit of Super Armor.
4. I was testing the damage this does with Hatred Install and absorbing only part of Blown Kiss. I believe my most recent attempt absorbed the 3 hits it can and it meant opening the combo with 7.1K damage. Though, damage scaling is in full effect, it hits hard and then you have any Hatred Install you might have left. I dunno though, I haven't hit high level play at any fighting game so I'm not sure how much that matters, but maybe it'll matter at lower level play? I mean with the lower level schmoes I play with it it only wouldn't matter because I'm the only one that plays Painwheel and none of them really play Fukua. Maybe one of you guys could inform me how low a priority it would be to fix this bug.

 

[Mike_Z]

The damage nerf does not scale it by a mere 600, rather she tends to lose up to 1,500 - 2,000(!!!) in max damage scaling combos.

You are flat out wrong, which is surprising with the number and thoroughness of the examples you posted. :^)
Firstly, you did a different combo with a bunch of lower-damage moves in it, which contributes to your damage being lower...but you only noted the s.LPx2 part.

Secondly...corner Sekhmet LLL-M-H-return, c.MK xx H Spiral (24 hits, 3089 damage, reaches min scaling)

+Lv3 in real game = 6836
+Lv3 in Beta = 6261
A Lv3 damage difference of 575.

Note that in the SCOTT_WHALE recording you posted, the last hit of her Lv3 does 1800. In the CURRENT GAME it does 900, which you could have checked yourself, which means there's already a 900 damage difference between that video and the real version of the game now. Remember it's already had the damage redistributed since that video was posted, before this Beta change.

I'm willing to listen to opinions about nerfing it making too big a difference, but I'd like you to argue it again with correct information. :^P And I do not agree that 1v3 ToDs is necessarily a good thing...

Was sad to see that this didn't get fixed.

Thanks for mentioning it again, I'ma fix it RIGHT NOW!

She also has a pretty good reversal now.
[snip]
has probably the best reversal now

Please clarify. She has nothing strike invincible outside Magnet and Lv3. Mine has vulnerable startup before the mine will react, and can be thrown anyway.
L Danger loses to ALL LOWS, ALL MOVES THAT CAN OTG, and throws.
I feel like I go through this each time a character has a strike-invincible move...

I don't think damage nerf is enough. If that was the case, people would have stopped calling fukua bs when she got a damage nerf like 2 patches ago.

People have problems with characters with options. Kinda like you right now? :^)

If anything I'd like to try @Liam idea to make it so she can't double jump cancel her normals on block. If she is gonna get a more keep away style, she doesn't really need that kind of offense anymore.

Maybe...

Also, mine is pretty ridiculous.

This is one of the reasons for experiments - I might agree. Missiles and Mine were the two things I was worried about, but making Mine not-useless without being too useful is difficult. And it does require a resource.

git gud problem; went through and tested.
if done with the first frame airdash shortcut, jLP will connect correctly on everyone.

Well, I also fixed it last night so that up to 3f hits everyone. :^P

 

[PME]

I'd like to test not being able to DJC blocked aerials for sure, it might actually be okay

 

[skull person]

I'll try and break down this post and add my thoughts, while also just touching on what I think of Robo in general.
Incoming rambling:

She can do two beams before touching the ground so she gets things like jump M beam > brass assist > Jump h beam

This isn't really new tactic that opens up because of double jumping nor do I think it's an important one.
If your j M Beam is too low to the floor (the sweet spot), you won't have enough time to double jump
If you do end up double jumping after j M Beam, your j H Beam is only going to be used to prevent their jump, and give them space to jump after the j H Beam finishes.

j M Beam + Brass, land L Beam (or M Beam if they pushblocked) is far more effective than double jumping, you get two beam hits rather than one beam hit and one that might, and it's faster.
j H Beam at lowest possible height (which takes a long to descend to if you double jumped after a beam) only hits 4 characters. (Eliza, Beowulf, Big Band, Cerebella.)

Just from watching the first match alone anyone can see her keep away isn't terrible.

Okay so if you watch that first round and start counting from the "Showtime" Robo keeps away Fortune for literally
5 whole seconds
before she is cornered by Fortune at the absolute MOST OPTIMAL position she can be in; 45 degrees above Robot.
Mistiming the Fortune jLK jump-in lead to a whole bunch of bad stuff, but if that hit, Robo could have died without ever leaving that corner because she does not have a strike invincible reversal (in that version) and Magnet wouldn't have been super helpful (in the current patch).
You cannot afford to lose neutral / or get touched as Robo.

There is a lot of good runaway in that set I agree, but there's also a lot of mistakes on Diablos part and I know he'd agree.

Also if it helps, my Robot in retail is useless on point vs SonicFox / Cloudking / Dekillsage (Brass Assist) / Diablos.
She does not have good enough tools to zone really good players out in retail.

My biggest issue with playing Robot in retail is that when I get into a bad spot or get hit I'm thinking "I don't even know what I could have done." but now all of her keep away tools and zoning tools are buffed so I'm thinking "Oh I should have just done this other thing it would have worked."

Mine is safe on block, activates very fast and trades in robo's favor every single time.

The #1 thing I have my eye on, too.
It might be too powerful, but when you think about how when she's actually she hit she doesn't have a reversal against anything but IAD's, maybe she needs a powerful tool like that.
It costs a resource which you have to find the space to acquire, which you lose after.
Sure getting a head isn't the hardest thing if you have an assist but it's still something to consider.
She's the only character in the game that can't do anything vs wake up meaty Jab Jab by herself.

I also don't know if I want to call it a reversal, it doesn't do it's thing until frame 6, which makes it as much as a reversal as wake up Filia / Fortune jab.

Can still dash up into whatever in half a second.

Dash speed is insane yes, but the purpose is for dash under and hold to get to the other screen which is pretty important.

If anything I'd like to try @Liam idea to make it so she can't double jump cancel her normals on block.

So this is the really important part that worries me as a human.

Mike and I are pretty happy with Robo-Fortune being a run-away zoner, and I would love for her to be really good at that.
When Robo was made Mike held back in a lot of area's and "Erred on the side of caution..."
So the heavy hitting, jump canceling, plus as hell button version of Robo is what people have been playing for 1 year.

The damage hit alone with almost nothing else has already sparked responses like

Yeah, after reading the patch notes, playing a little on Beta and crying a lot I decided to drop Robo for good. Unless the changes never come to the retail I'll not using this shit anymore.
YES I'M BEYOND PISSED!

and

Is robo supposed to accept "space", "frame advantage", and "free head summons" as acceptable rewards for a hit? i like that, but as an option, not as something i'm forced to do.
[j.mp, j.lp, s.hp (buffed as is) and even the new c.mk] would suddenly become 5x scarier and pressure would actually be worth doing.
anyway... tomorrow we play.

I worry about changing Robo-Fortune too much and completely forcing her down one path.
I suggested way more of her zoning changes than the patch notes show, and I tried to turn down the strength of some of her up close tools like damage, sHK, jHK, sHP (pulling you into her so you can PBGC her in the face for autopiloting it instead of her being able to do sHP > L Beam spaced to be safe). [Mike wasn't okay with some of the damage nerfs I suggested.]
But removing block jump cancels is huge.

In retail, after a lot of playing, I still think you're better off jumping into their face with jump cancels and being annoying with an assist until you open them up ONCE you force them to approach with her fullscreen options. (This is not the style I like.)
If you're good at applying pressure and reading people this actually kills people more effectively than running around poking with low damage beams and subpar zoning tools. (This is why I think SonicFox was effective against people with his Robo, and why you see players like MPGame desperately grasping for some sort of reliable reward [Bypass] for committing to zoning)
When Sonic tried to play some keep away against say Cloudking's Valentine, she didn't last 10 seconds, and neither does mine!

When I land a jMP, jHK or jHP and it's blocked, I am thinking about how to turn that frame advantage into running away.
If you remove block jump cancels, you lose a lot of the good pressure options she can pick from once she gets that blocked hit.
If that went through, you might not be thinking about running away or deciding to apply pressure, you're probably just thinking about running away most of the time because that's her best option after being forced into the zoning arch-type 100%.

I can ramble forever but basically...
I am 100% okay with losing double jump cancels on block, but I really don't want to be responsible / involved in killing whatever is left of the other style that some Robo players might prefer.
Yes I am aware that it's completely up to Mike not me.

However, even with her DJ cancels on block, really powerful mine and beam damage increases, I still don't think she's going to be top tier or seen on every team like retail Double and Fukua, so maybe it's not an issue.
I don't agree with how good you make her out to be, but I am one of the few who play her, so I could be biased though I try not to be.

 

[dekillsage]

Mine is pretty good. Kinda worried it might be too good. I'm not gonna talk about frame data cuz idk esports about that, but if its as fast as a Filia jab then in terms of reversal speed that's good enough. I've had mine trade plenty of times, where jab would trade and get me killed in the same scenarios, at least, that's what it feels like.

Big Band changes are cool.

 

[skull person]

I looked at the new M Shadow height.
It makes it harder for her to do M Shadow, wait, cLK/Command Grab when you land because there's a lot of time to see her just waiting for you to back down.

As for t h e v o r t e x looks like you can still do it.
You just run under them then SJ jLP jHK which will auto correct.
If you see that they block the jHK, you can go into (JHP > L Dart, land, sLP) which actually a blockstring wow, so there's another 50/50 with command grab or something if you wanted it from the L Dart but Fukua players already know this.

So, it makes the M Shadow > Low / Throw hard because it's easy to mash a button on the way down but the left right frame trap is still there.

You can probably get some really hard land cancel reversal on the JLP JHP JHK x L Dart string.

Recording doesn't show things well but:

 

[Cadenza]

@Mike_Z

The launch height change on M shadow feels rather floaty.
Initially feels unnatural in combos, I believe the purpose was to weaken the M shadow set up? I don't supposed the launch height change could be lowered just a bit, otherwise its as it was before?

Don't know how to feel about the change for now other than "weird".

 

[Tank]

For robo's mine can she get a button hold that lets you move the mine further away as long as the button is held. Then when you release it plants itself.

 

[Adeveis]

Please clarify...

I type really fast jotting words down then i go back and fix some of my grammar and wording. However, I don't always fix everything :p. What I should have said was "she has better reversal options".

People have problems with characters with options. Kinda like you right now? :^)

People also have problems understanding each other but I'm sure we can work through it together. :3

There is a lot of good runaway in that set I agree, but there's also a lot of mistakes on Diablos part and I know he'd agree.

Absolutely agree but also capitalizing on your opponents mistakes is a big thing needed to be good at fighters. It's not a matter if the character has the tools when the player doesn't have the execution, knowledge, or spacing to use them. I think it can also be said that PME played really well and you shouldn't discredit anything he did because there was a chance it couldn't work.

Dash speed is insane yes, but the purpose is for dash under and hold to get to the other screen which is pretty important.

That may be what it was designed for but that doesn't mean it is the only use of that movement option. It still can be used in a way to punish your opponent for trying to react to a beam.

Mike and I are pretty happy with Robo-Fortune being a run-away zoner, and I would love for her to be really good at that.

I don't mind what character archetype she becomes, I just think she feels a little overloaded and just wanted to say something. To be perfectly honest I think she is fine in retail. Not to say that she didn't need any changes. I like danger having more strike invul, c.lp being better at anti air, and changes to her lvl3. However I think a lot of players are confusing zoning and keep away and keep away character she is not. I feel most Robos are trying to rely on her projectiles and not using her amazing offense/resets and therefore overlooked tweaking those areas.

I still thought her keepaway was terrible in her pre-patch version, I just used her in the way she was originally meant to be played; as a character who forced you to advance the way she wanted you to advance.

This too is how i see her and I don't think she is bad at it. I would go as far as to say as this did not need to be changed about her. L beam hitting only grounded and M/H whiffing on crouchers forces you to predict which action your opponent takes and punishes you pretty hard when you miss predict. Unlike Peacock whom I would describe as a keepaway character.

I am 100% okay with losing double jump cancels on block, but I really don't want to be responsible / involved in killing whatever is left of the other style that some Robo players might prefer.

It's just something I would like to try if we are going to keep her changes to her defensive playstyle (I'm also half thinking about letting her keep djc on block while in lvl3). Again I'd prefer if she kept her playstyle the way it is in retail but 400 damage on block from beams is pretty high. That coupled with her knockdown changes makes me think damage nerf isn't enough to not make her a bit silly.

 

[WingZero]

Any chance of fixing lvl 2 sing in the corner?

 

[skull person]

I don't mind what character archetype she becomes, I just think she feels a little overloaded and just wanted to say something. To be perfectly honest I think she is fine in retail. Not to say that she didn't need any changes. I like danger having more strike invul, c.lp being better at anti air, and changes to her lvl3. However I think a lot of players are confusing zoning and keep away and keep away character she is not. I feel most Robos are trying to rely on her projectiles and not using her amazing offense/resets and therefore overlooked tweaking those areas.

There's not much reason to zone because she can't keep people away for long like you said, and if she did, the damage she got from chip was not worth it.
Running away lead to more zoning, which lead to no rewards, again.

The optimal retail was run away for a little bit and make them mad, then meet the half way and then do blocked jump cancel junk in their face while being + on everything until they crack while being mindful of reversals.
JMP DJ JMP and JMP DJ JHK is still really silly.

I would go as far as to say as this did not need to be changed about her. L beam hitting only grounded and M/H whiffing on crouchers forces you to predict which action your opponent takes and punishes you pretty hard when you miss predict. Unlike Peacock whom I would describe as a keepaway character.

Yes, this is a big thing.
If you miss one beam, they gain a lot of space.
Once they close into midscreen you're taking a big risk in retail because you don't have all the good tools esp with heads.

It's just something I would like to try if we are going to keep her changes to her defensive playstyle (I'm also half thinking about letting her keep djc on block while in lvl3). Again I'd prefer if she kept her playstyle the way it is in retail but 400 damage on block from beams is pretty high. That coupled with her knockdown changes makes me think damage nerf isn't enough to not make her a bit silly.

The knockdown changes really aren't that huge.
If they teched into you, you could still just jHP + L Beam + Assist and they would hold that.
You just get a little bit further away.

She needed way more than changes on Level 3, L Spin, and cLP to be able to zone good players like you say should be able to.
If she can't keep people away, and her zoning does bad chip with little rewards, then there's no reason to zone.

Any chance of fixing lvl 2 sing in the corner?

You can't pull the camera close to her if she's in the corner because there is no drawn stage.
The stage continue's for a few more pixels off screen to deal with camera shakes.
If this was Marvel 3 the camera could pan like it does during a throw or TAC downwards but the only option in SG would be to make a giant black wall on one side of the stage D:

 

[cloudKing211]

You can't pull the camera close to her if she's in the corner because there is no drawn stage.
The stage continue's for a few more pixels off screen to deal with camera shakes.
If this was Marvel 3 the camera could pan sure like it does during a throw or TAC downwards but the only option in SG would be to make a giant black wall on one side of the stage D:

I believe they are referring to the hitstop for level 2 sing not happening in the corner, not the screen drag.
Can be wrong though

 

[skull person]

I believe they are referring to the hitstop for level 2 sing not happening in the corner, not the screen drag.
Can be wrong though

o this sounds reasonable nevermind then
I've seen the first question asked a lot

 

[Mike_Z]

Pretty sure they're referring to the screen drag, the hitstop happens everywhere.

Also wow, people are quitting Robo because she does less damage and lost zero other options?

 

[Cadenza]

Pretty sure they're referring to the screen drag, the hitstop happens everywhere.

Also wow, people are quitting Robo because she does less damage and lost zero other options?

I heard its cause of "lol well peacock can do 11k damage for two bars" another thing i did hear is that she doesn't seem to have a particular MO to abide by. you can pester people with j.mp djc j.mp +assist and really is annoying to some people.

 

[PME]

I didn't feel like old mines were "not useful". They didn't really help her keepaway, but she did have plenty of cool incoming setups I like doing. Some setups like meaty Mine on the way in and forcing them to block, then grabbing them before the explosion happens (kinda like Bella's s.HP > MGR). Or force them to block the mine on incoming and jumping over them so the explosion is a crossup.

I understand not wanting to make Mines not too good without making them not useful enough, that's a hard middle ground for a special like this.
Maybe we can try out the fast startup and quicker explosion staying, yes, but the Mine still goes away if Robo is in hitsun?

 

[SonicFox]

robo is amazing you are fools

 

[skull person]

Maybe we can try out the fast startup and quicker explosion staying, yes, but the Mine still goes away if Robo is in hitsun?

But that's not even how they worked pre-patch.
I think the trade is really important.

I'd rather keep mine the way it is and lose something else because mine is really fun.

robo is amazing you are fools

Well I don't think anyone here is calling her bad, I think she's awesome atm.

 

[cloudKing211]

But that's not even how they worked pre-patch.
I think the trade is really important.

I'd rather keep mine the way it is and lose something else because mine is really fun.


Well I don't think anyone here is calling her bad, I think she's awesome atm.

This means he thinks the character is dumb.
Abort. Abort.

 

[severine]

m clone height is cool and good and forces her to commit to less boring options on resets thanks

 

[ShadeMoneh]

So uhh this still happens http://puu.sh/qtDCv/d846b2b8b5.mp4 @Mike_Z

sobbing

 

[Mike_Z]

I heard its cause of "lol well peacock can do 11k damage for two bars"

I am not sure how that is relevant (but I think it's like 9.8k).
Peacock and Robo are different characters? Peacock has situational unreliable antiairs, no armor, no mines or hidden missile assist or air zoning tools, no air mobility option like Robo's j.HK, a slow dash, no standing overhead, slow pokes...Robo is the only character in the game that can combo off her sweep, which breaks armor...Peacock's zoning tools don't immediately reach fullscreen, and she has nothing except Argus to end combos with that puts people far away. Her strike-invincible reversal is 20f or something.

Arguably what's been borne out thus far in everything to do with this game (and others!) is that options >>>>> damage. Having both is obviously better, but man. Damage isn't everything. If you can't land that hit, or you get hit and can't get out of the mixups/pressure, it doesn't matter how much damage the character does. Switching for that reason is gonna be a bad idea.

 

[RemiKz]

I'm still of the impression that Robo's damage is still sorta kinda a little too low. She doesn't exactly open up anyone easily. She has a standing overhead but you can't even convert off it without spending a whole bar (which won't even add damage itself) or having the right assist. Like I stated earlier, some of her best hit confirms will involve using j.MP/j.HK, and just getting 2-3 of the multihits to land will severally scale the damage of the combo to below 6k damage.

This combo losses out about 800 damage if I start with a crossup j.MP/j.HK that hits 2-3 times.

EDIT: What are the chances that L and M danger get a little more benefit out of successfully landing them? Like LK danger knocking them up and sort right in front of you so you can otg them? I find myself almost never trying it when c.LP generally gets the job done and is faster. MK Danger is just weird. I feel like you are better off just jumping out of grab attempts instead of trying to use it for its grab invulnerability. It just leaves them standing right next to you and you don't really get anything out of it.

 

[CaioLugon]

(but I think it's like 9.8k)

Spoiler: uhh...

(can easily go over 12k with more shots from argus hitting)

Tj's combo also does 10.8k with L bang, lenny, argus ender midscreen solo.

I completely agree with what you're saying there and I really like the robo changes, just pointing this out.

 

[noaa]

I said stuff in a reply somewhere that got tagged along the discussion.

Since the initial patch and my initial rambling, I've played about 100 matches with new Robo and.... I take everything I said back. She feels absolutely awesome. And by that I don't mean she's too strong or broken by any means.

She's still in a miserable and almost helpless position when cornered, and she will probably always be, but now, more than ever, before the cornering actually happens you can look back and see at least three wrong choices you made that put you in that spot.

I know what I'm about to say is maybe red herring, but look at Peacock for example... the amount of chip / space control per second that she does once the zoning is settled is X. New Robo's value for X is higher now. A bit around X times 1.5. The big difference is the mid-range, where Robo actually has to make difficult choices, but gets huge rewards for doing so and being right. At medium range you can try to air to air with j.lk (and don't really get punished most of the times for whiffing or forcing a block), try a max range c.mk with both defensive and offensive followups in both scenarios and tons of other things that Peacock only dreams of having... imo.

So yeah, I feel rewarded when I "land" 5 blocked beams before my opponent manages to close in, and when he does, I feel like I have to understand it's time to j.hk the fuck out, dash under the fuck out or press any of the awesome mid-range buttons robo has. If I get myself in a bad spot, it feels like it's my fault now.

The only thing that has been bugging me is why H beam on hit deals less damage even though all of the rest (including blocked H beam) does more in the beta build.