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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

missingno said:
This is dirty as hell and I love it. It's a bait like any other, your fault if you fall for it. Not seeing any problem here.
If you don't fall for a burst bait you don't die in every other scenario.
It's not a burst bait like any other.

It's deciding who lives and who dies.
You can like that and that's okay, but it's still completely unique and nothing like current burst baits.
 
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Which might end up being better than having the assist character killed if the point has low health or they have to spend more resources to kill than they did before. Certainly is an interesting situation. And the other question is can all characters set this type of stuff up. You guys are forgeting about alpha countering off burst too
 
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Kinda hard to alpha counter when your assist is out there ain't it?
 
You can DHC / Tag to your third character if your second character was hit or snapped out, but I don't think you can alpha counter.
(Can't call third character as an assist obviously)
 
I'm at work rn but, you might not be able to actually due to assist lockout from snap. But you should be able to if snap burst remains blue imo
 
Liam said:
You can DHC / Tag to your third character if your second character was hit or snapped out, but I don't think you can alpha counter.
(Can't call third character as an assist obviously)
I thought everything was locked out whenever any assist was touched.
 
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worldjem said:
I thought everything was locked out whenever any assist was touched.
Almost.
If someone snaps in your anchor who is say Big Band, you can do incoming Timapani and DHC to second character (Double) for safe DHC negating their incoming set up.
I think it's a little silly but it's intentional and costs 2 meters. [At least when I mentioned it, it wasn't addressed, idk]

Also I just checked and I was wrong about the tag, oops.
It's JUST DHC's.
Everything else is locked.
 
Fumako said:
How does everyone else feel about the new Sneeze?
I posted my thoughts earlier, but here it is again:
worldjem said:
Something that always bugged me was that Fortune can't hit her head out of the recovery of her head attacks (she has to wait for the move to end, and enter the cooldown before you can hit it again).
Now that sneeze goes this high, I want to hit it even more. Can we let her hit her head out of head attacks after the active frames? Or is that too good for reasons I don't know?

Edit: The height is nice, especially vs Painwheel, but because it goes so high, it also takes much longer for it to land, so it's impossible to do combo > sneeze > combo > any head move since the head is still in cooldown. Could the cooldown be reduced to compensate?
 
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Lex said:
The game tells you about burst baits in the drama/undizzy tutorial. It literally makes you do a burst bait as Parasoul.

I gave the tutorial another try, since last I did, I was still a newbie and couldn't do the combos. It does tell you about burst bait, but doesn't make it clear what to do about bursts when you're the one being cornered. The tutorial only covers staying safe on the offensive side of things, not defensive.
 
Mike_Z said:
Will bella's point/hurtboxes ever get looked at again
Just looking for a yes/no since she still feels wonky compared to the rest of the cast sometimes
If you give me replays, maybe?
The first example is stand vs crouch, you can do that on everyone.
Linked here is a replay showcasing a combo that's a bit weird on Bella. Launch, j.MP > j.HK, OTG j.MKx2 > j.LK > j.MK, s.LP > [s.MK]

The s.MK hits consistently on the whole cast with the exception of her, who requires specific timing.
 
Would it be possible for Squigly's level 3to cause some sort of knockdown similar to SBO? I think that it would make it a lot nicer to convert off of and make it more consistent with how SBO deals knockdown.



 fuck you socks
 
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QOL questions.

Is there any way for Big Band M and H symbol clash to apply something better to the hits before the soundstun hits? Sometimes the first hit connects, and then the last one doesn't and they go into a weird knockdown state to the ground from the air really fast. I'll try to get a replay but it doesn't happen very often. But when it does it's really annoying.

Is there a reason why squigly cr hp causes knockdown on air hit? Wouldn't it make more sense for it to pull down to make confirms into chord and other stuff more consistent?

Can Squigly lvl 3 end in a knockdown instead of going back to neutral? Sometimes it hits from a part of the screen that's really hard to convert from unless you spend another bar. (I also question the way it travels. Feel like an Oro SA2 or slow ball like dormammu's sphere flame would make more sense) This next thing is in real ass buff territory, but also could the lvl 3 get the blockstop like robo lvl3 explosion has so if they block it on the ground you don't get to absolute guard it a bunch, and if air blocked your left/right mixup timing is more guaranteed

There are occasions where pw jmp and double jhp have the first hit hit, have very slight knockback or weird interaction with enemy hurtboxes and the rest of the move whiffs. Not sure that anything can be done about this. Maybe if a slight pull-in effect could make it more consistent. I think I have a replay, which I will grab soon.
 
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WarpedEcho said:
Is there a reason why squigly cr hp causes knockdown on air hit? Wouldn't it make more sense for it to pull down to make confirms into chord and other stuff more consistent?
This is the most frustrating thing in the world, it would improve the consistency of a lot of confirms (Especially vs Bella and Big Band)

EDIT: Apparently this doesn't really matter because it's only the 4th c.hp hit that knocks down so you can cancel it earlier, thanks Zeknife.
 
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missingno said:
It's not like this is somehow worse than before. You're still losing a character, but now you get to pick which one lives and which one dies. If your point is close to dead anyway and you think you can get the anchor's red health back, it might be worth taking the burst.
Completely false. Notice how I also hit Big Band after the double snap.
You can totally just keep the happy birthday going or just double snap again. (I tried to kill both of them but couldn't find a combo that works)
So NO, you do NOT get to choose which of your character lives.
and NO, you CANNOT alpha counter.
There's been some buff done to Squigly and more suggestions towards making her better.
I feel she was already a really good character so I suggest some damage nerf be done to go along with these buffs.
 
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Woah those Peacock buffs.

Kinda curious about the Robo 5MP change, I'm not gonna complain, this is a pretty huge re-buff, +2 without opening myself up to PBGC. Makes the followup very confusing as an on block option now, but it is definitely much stronger like this.
 
I love the canceling beams now! If I had someone in a knock-down state in mid-air while ending a combo with a high beam, I could finish it with a magnet super. A bit situational, but the more options for Robo, the better. I like this.

Also, I hear word that this is the last major balance update for the game. Does that mean the beta will be retired afterwards, or will it see further use for minor bugfixes and balance tweaks?
 
SugarDots said:
It's less that I'm blaming the game for failed bursts and more that I wish it told me successful/failed bursts were a possibility in the first place. At intermediate play or higher, knowing that is the difference between having a fair chance to escape and getting bodied ceaselessly in a corner.

If you at all have played versus a player that understands what a burst bait is and they proceeded to pull one on you, then you should have gained an intuitive understanding that when you bursted, it actually was unsafe - they baited it from you. If it keeps happening over, and over, and over, then it probably means that it was an unsafe burst that you did. You can also use this game's godlike training move to determine safe/unsafe burst bait setups, too.

Absolute Guard and PBGC aren't even in the tutorial, and adding that and burst baits seems unnecessary IMO. The resources explaining them are easily accessed, and burst baits just seem like a simple concept to graps compared to the other two I mentioned.

SugarDots said:
I gave the tutorial another try, since last I did, I was still a newbie and couldn't do the combos. It does tell you about burst bait, but doesn't make it clear what to do about bursts when you're the one being cornered. The tutorial only covers staying safe on the offensive side of things, not defensive.

You literally just press any button when you are sparking to burst. I also thought that it was pretty clear that this can also occur when you are defending since the CPU who you burst baited in that tutorial section was you know, defending.

I don't think telling players about burst baits is necessary. It is a pretty simple concept to grasp and it's just busywork that Mike could spend on actually balancing out the beta rather than wasting time to explain a concept that can be told in an elevator pitch.
 
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It still doesn't outright explain when it's safe to burst, though. This might surprise you, but some things aren't immediately obvious to new players. I'm 140 hours in and just now figured out, "Oh, IPS isn't broken and abused. I simply didn't find any resources until now telling me it's working as intended and that I was missing a key part of the system."

Even if this is my first real investment in a fighting game, each game has its own quirks and systems to approach common problems in the genre. (And as far as I know, Skullgirls is the first one to not use heavier gravity/other means to prevent infinites.) I'm not saying the in-game tutorials absolutely must cover this detail, but dismissing it as too obvious to be worth the coverage is, quite frankly, frustrating.

That kind of attitude seems a tad anti-thesis to a game that's all about getting newcomers' feet wet in learning a fighter.
 
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SugarDots said:
It still doesn't outright explain when it's safe to burst, though. This might surprise you, but some things aren't immediately obvious to new players. I'm 140 hours in and just now figured out, "Oh, IPS isn't broken and abused. I simply didn't find any resources until now telling me it's working as intended and that I was missing a key part of the system."

Even if this is my first real investment in a fighting game, each game has its own quirks and systems to approach common problems in the genre. (And as far as I know, Skullgirls is the first one to not use heavier gravity/other means to prevent infinites.) I'm not saying the in-game tutorials absolutely must cover this detail, but dismissing it as too obvious to be worth the coverage is, quite frankly, frustrating.

I've spent about 210 and I have never played a single fighting game past 20 minutes total until I ran into SG. I understood the concept of safe and unsafe bursts during my first 10 hours of the game (probably first 5, really), and this isn't meant to be an exaggeration - it really is just a simple concept to understand - nothing more, nothing less.

If the game told you when it is safe to burst.... It waters down a big part of the game to appeal to players who are frustrated and ultimately misunderstood about an intended and interesting mechanic. By your logic, the game should also make loud toilet flushing noises every single time your opponent is going for a vortex setup, since new players just don't know that they are being hit by a vortex. Maybe they should have me yell "You are about to get reset" on the first frame where you aren't in hitstun, because the new players just don't know that they are going to get hit by a reset. How about if you get grabbed, maybe I could say "Here is your window to tech the throw do it nowHaha too late buddy! Now your opponent has throw scaling!".

And all of the examples me and Lex said already implicitly explain when it is safe to burst.

The tutorials also blatantly and clearly explain how IPS works. It's common knowledge that infinites don't really exist in this game - that should be clear within an hour of watching and playing the game once you understand resets and see the combo counter go back down to 0 each time a reset happens.
 
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Hammerschmidt said:
I've spent about 210 and I have never played a single fighting game past 20 minutes total until I ran into SG. I understood the concept of safe and unsafe bursts during my first 10 hours of the game (probably first 5, really), and this isn't meant to be an exaggeration - it really is just a simple concept to understand - nothing more, nothing less.
The only concept of safe/unsafe bursting to be expecting people to understand is the polarity of whether it hit or didn't hit the opponent. Anything else is fuzzy because there's not really much that indicates that there's a difference and you can't expect for people to notice the color difference on the burst itself. Hell I've logged over 1000 hours and I didn't notice that detail despite knowing of the different burst types from outside reading.

Hammerschmidt said:
If the game told you when it is safe to burst.... It waters down a big part of the game to appeal to players who are frustrated and ultimately misunderstood about an intended and interesting mechanic.
There's a really really huge difference between the game explicitly telling someone in-the-moment that a burst is safe and educating them about the different types of bursts and how each of them correspond to what you're being hit with. Let alone the fact that there are multiple burst types to begin with.

Hammerschmidt said:
By your logic, the game should also make loud toilet flushing noises every single time your opponent is going for a vortex setup, since new players just don't know that they are being hit by a vortex.
They can see that though. Even with no explanation that's something very obviously visible.
Hammerschmidt said:
Maybe they should have me yell "You are about to get reset" on the first frame where you aren't in hitstun, because the new players just don't know that they are going to get hit by a reset. How about if you get grabbed, maybe I could say "Here is your window to tech the throw do it nowHaha too late buddy! Now your opponent has throw scaling!".
The game already does this. There's a blue spark that appears when someone leaves hitstun and is able to press an attack button. Teching is also explained in full during the tutorial. There's no additional need to elaborate on it in the heat of a fight.

Hammerschmidt said:
And all of the examples me and Lex said already implicitly explain when it is safe to burst.
Yes, but the game doesn't make explicit mention that there's even different types of bursts to work with. That affects not only the defensive side when doing the burst, but also affects people's ability to create burst baits if they aren't exactly sure what's fine to try to bait with and what's acceptable to continue their combo with if the opponent refuses to burst early.

You're being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse. Can you name an actual downside to teaching this concept in the tutorial? It doesn't have to be super detailed, but a mention of the different burst types alone would give people something to keep their eyes open for when the time comes and acts as a solid reference to refer to if they were confused about it.
 
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While it would be nice if the tutorial went into more detail about bursts and other mechanics like PBGC, absolute guard and alpha countering bursts, I think it is too late to expect that to be added to the game. That would require an awful lot of work either updating existing tutorials or adding in completely new ones and would probably involve people other than Mike coming back to work on this patch which is almost certainly not going to happen.
 
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Even a closing tip about burst types sneaked into the last paragraph of the IPS burst tutorial would probably be sufficient. Although I similarly agree it's probably too late for that.

Hammerschmidt said:
loud toilet flushing noises

QOTD right here.

Your argument of "I figured it out in ten minutes compared to you, so what's your problem?" is one thing, but can we do without the vague condescension and possible snickering at your own (bad) jokes on the other side of the keyboard? Thank you.

Everyone learns at a different pace, learns differently, and observes things differently. This is one of the first things I learned when I got back into art some years ago. Another thing I learned is that something as contrived as labeling a newbie a fool based on your personal experience never helps anyone in their journey of improving. Any valid points made (and you did make some) are lost in an argument that didn't need to happen.
 
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Squigly's ability to call assists during stances currently seems to extend to her charged HP DP startup, so she has those 10f or something to call assists while invincible
Seems like something that might not be intended
 
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I do not like the fake teleport change (mainly for M teleport) because it makes hit confirms with item drop wayyy to easy, and I preferred the L teleport moving Peacock backwards. Oh, and I know you said we couldn't have both but I thought it would be cool if having her M fake teleport do her tag in and just have her L teleport always move her back even when holding item drop?
 
Look, I'm gonna be blunt. If you've played for hundreds of hours and your response to seeing something "unfair" is to not do any research into it, fighting games might not be for you.
 
Broken Loose said:
Look, I'm gonna be blunt. If you've played for hundreds of hours and your response to seeing something "unfair" is to not do any research into it, fighting games might not be for you.
idk if you are referring to my post or if you are even serious? and if you are I did do a good amount research.
 
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About IPS thing.

Having an indicator of "when to burst and when not to burst" vs "when burst is available and not available" is silly and here's my reasoning.

Every burst in the game has the ability to become gold at any point, and the game already tells you if that occurs (granted it's small but it's still there). Having an indicator for if your burst would be gold would then take away from the part of the game in terms of the game itself. Both on offense and defense.

In the Vortex example, you can visually see the setup correct? Same with a burst bait, you can see the projectile hit you can see the burst hit something. The only case where there is not a visual and auditory stimulus that is different is after 90f. Which applies to a few situations and as I said before is a check so that something isn't inescapable. Also, 90f isn't that hard to count out if you did it too early do it later next time. I'm not saying that it's an inherently bad idea to differentiate them in something like the training mode or tutorial. I'm saying that it would be too much effort for a subjective issue that is inherently subjective in nature.

I personally, noticed the difference in the tutorial within the first couple hours of playing the game. That's cause I spent about 6 hours solely doing the tutorial again and again til I got it and noticed weird changes in character and art etc. Other people didn't, that's fine. If this game didn't tell you when you could burst and when you couldn't that would be dumb and a good change.

TL;DR Your defense comes down to how well you know the game and how well you know the opponent. Whether it be a burst bait, a good reversal option (or lack thereof) or internal mechanics of the game. There's never going to be a mechanic that makes your ability to not get bodied any better. That's on you.

[edit] SG is also one of the most information-heavy fighters on the market at all. It's not even close. Just look up something if you are dying to it
we are literally on a forum of skullgirls players wtf...
 
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Psychopath said:
You're being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse. Can you name an actual downside to teaching this concept in the tutorial? It doesn't have to be super detailed, but a mention of the different burst types alone would give people something to keep their eyes open for when the time comes and acts as a solid reference to refer to if they were confused about it.

No, there only would be positives - you're correct. I basically was trying to say that it would be a waste of Mike's time, though, as he has other priorities to work on re. other L0 stuff and finishing the Beta changes.

SugarDots said:
Everyone learns at a different pace, learns differently, and observes things differently. This is one of the first things I learned when I got back into art some years ago. Another thing I learned is that something as contrived as labeling a newbie a fool based on your personal experience never helps anyone in their journey of improving. Any valid points made (and you did make some) are lost in an argument that didn't need to happen.

I never said that you were a fool, although I did come across quite harsh, sorry about that. I just genuinely believe that it is a simple concept that doesn't have an issue to be addressed. I'm a newcomer to traditional fighting games as well, and I figured out pretty quickly the different types of bursts and how IPS works, etc.

I don't think it's a bad idea to add them in, rather I think the opposite. I just don't think it's reasonable to task Mike with that and I personally don't see a reason, that's all.
 
I agree, no need to change anything with bursts as far as indicators go. You as a player should know when it's the right time to burst.

The 2 things I would like to see with burst though are:

1. During burstable times, I would like the burstee to be able to hold forward and press any button to burst. If the burstee is holding forward, then the opponent flys TOWARD me instead of away from me.

2. Make alpha counter on burst "assist call" instead of "tag".
 
MegamanDS said:
2. Make alpha counter on burst "assist call" instead of "tag".
I don't understand this one. When you alpha counter a burst, you get that character's assist; you don't get their tag in.
 
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I've heard commentators at Majors call something a "nice burst bait" when it wasn't a real burst bait so... yeah, i definitely think it's deserving of being in a tutorial, or having an indicator or whatever.
 
mcpeanuts said:
I don't understand this one. When you alpha counter a burst, you get that character's assist; you don't get their tag in.
Maybe I wasn't clear... When you want to counter in during a burst, make it lp+mk instead of the current lp+lk

EDIT: I now understand what you are saying. So wouldn't that make my point even more relevant? I'm asking it to change to assist call since you get their assist. Currently, it's programmed to QCF + tag
 
MegamanDS said:
Maybe I wasn't clear... When you want to counter in during a burst, make it lp+mk instead of the current lp+lk
Any reason why? Changing inputs will be very confusing to players who aren't paying close attention to every patch note, so it's generally not something that should be done unless there's a very good reason for it.

I don't see how it even makes any sense. Alpha counter out of blockstun is f+MP+MK/HP+HK, why would alpha counter out of burst use a different input?
 
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