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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

Magic Series x Item Drop = Stage 2
Item drop is finished and you're moving around post recovery but BEFORE the item drops, so that's Stage 3. (It's counting this as a chain all by itself)
Item drop hits which is a new stage and a new starter, so you get Stage 5.

Not sure if that's how it's supposed to be.
 
oh hey that combo stage bug I bugged this thread about earliar seems to be tied to each headrone
headrone #2 doesn't cause combo stage 5 when special canceled to while #1 and #3 do

edit: yo #2 is the shit when you want a second ground chain when your opponent's at full undizzy, dawg!!!!!
 
If I may, if Peacock's L teleport was to stay the way it is now, is it possible to reduce the cooldown or such? Off of raw tag I can combo into j.mk j.hk stuff but I can't off L teleport, which I find off. I didn't notice much of a damage change initially with the new argus, but after playing some sets in 2 v 3 I can't help but feel in certain combos that argus does a couple hundred or so less than it used to. Maybe ilink remikz was onto something or perhaps it's just some sort of placebo thing. I definitely do more damage in corner combos where Argus catches them high, but if Peacock is losing a hundred or so for other Arguses is a trade I'm not sure how I feel about it lol. (Though the extra chip is welcome as I honestly feel Argus doesn't do enough chip in retail)

Also I understand the Diamonds are Forever nerf, but I kind of dislike it as far as Bella combos go. As it is in beta, you can spend 3 bars in most combos to do about 500 more damage than simply using 1, but that just sounds odd to me lol. Especially when you consider certain Bella combos can use 2 dynamos which nets the same damage as a level 3 would. I mean yes it's only a tiny damage nerf, but in retail sometimes it was worth it to spend that extra bar for just a couple hundred more damage. Not to mention level 3 in the corner is actually worse than a single dynamo as you can't get battle butt/T.knuckle for the extra damage chunk. I dunno, I realize it is more so used as a reversal/dhc but for Bella herself it just feels weak and usually outclassed by dynamo.
 
Liam said:
Magic Series x Item Drop = Stage 2
Item drop is finished and you're moving around post recovery but BEFORE the item drops, so that's Stage 3. (It's counting this as a chain all by itself)
Item drop hits which is a new stage and a new starter, so you get Stage 5.

Not sure if that's how it's supposed to be.
What's a Magic Series?

Another thing is if you hold up right after the end of item drop it only sends you to stage 4 and you can get one more air chain but as soon as you touch the ground (even if you didn't attack in air) you go to stage 5. Idk if that means anything.
 
Lawnba said:
What's a Magic Series?
Your normals comboing.
 
Lawnba said:
What's a Magic Series?
A Magic Series is a single basic (ascending series of normal attacks) combo chain of that character. Peacock has a 6-button Magic Series. Valentine has potentially an 8-button Magic Series. Most times you don't see more than 3 buttons.
 
Cadenza said:
We tried it and a good portion of people hated it alot!
But that was back when everyone thought sliding knockdown wasn't that good. I just feel like it was unexplored. It would be intriguing to give it another shot.
 
I wanna be annoying and ask for another Bella change.

I was looking at Bella's s.mk and s.hk. They both go over lows, and they both have nearly the same horizontal range for the first active frame (s.mk goes a hair further, but s.hk hits higher). s.mk has 11 frames of startup, retracts the vulnerable hitbox a bit at frame 5, and completely raises it off the ground at frame 9. s.hk has 15 frames startup and leaves the ground completely at frame 6. This makes s.hk oddly the better choice to beat lows, despite it not hitting as low or far as s.mk.

The change I wanna ask for would be to move s.mk completely off the ground earlier (frame 4-6?) to help it actually avoid lows (especially long lows like Eliza and Beo's, which currently beat s.mk even if Bella is +2). Additionally, extend s.mk's hitbox down a bit to help it hit lower profile moves (like Squigly's c.lk and Filia/Fukua's c.hk), raise the vulnerable portion of s.hk a bit (it'll get hit by lows that s.mk won't, like Peacock's c.mk).

Also, one crazy idea, what if we changed the properties of s.mk and made it Potemkin's 2S from AC, so it sucks in on hit or block. It would help make max range confirms a thing, making Bella wanna use s.mk at neutral.
 
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Zidiane said:
Also, one crazy idea, what if we changed the properties of s.mk and made it Potemkin's 2S from AC, so it sucks in on hit or block. It would help make max range confirms a thing, making Bella wanna use s.mk at neutral.
Why would you ever use cMP then?
 
IsaVulpes said:
Why would you ever use cMP then?

Not that I'm advocating for a Bella buff, but

- Crossunders (from gold burst, from assist)
- Kara forward for command grabs
- Low profile (goes beneath HBeam)
- IPS
- It's not like cMPs only purpose was getting closer for a combo.

this move has lots of uses that adding vac to sMK would not remove
but I don't think sMK needs that but shrug

sMK currently sets up cLK/MGR IIRC and that's really good so

But I also hate fighting Bella so I don't enjoy talking about her balance because I feel scrubby.
So I'll let other people talk about whether or not she needs anything.


Fuck jHK, her point, her hurtboxes, and everything that trades in her favor.
 
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Adeveis said:
But that was back when everyone thought sliding knockdown wasn't that good. I just feel like it was unexplored. It would be intriguing to give it another shot.
As a filia player i am willing to try it again. At the same time i am getting very tired of repurposing tools for the sake of experiments in general. Whatever happens i will give it a gpod shot
 
I find it silly how much dumber the Big Band vs. Big Band matchup got. H Cymbals was supposed to be a move to control space and break armor, since it has 3 hits and a pretty good hitbox. But H train now has 3 hits of armor so there goes that.
 
gllt said:
Not that I'm advocating for a Bella buff, but
- Crossunders (from gold burst, from assist)
- Kara forward for command grabs
- Low profile (goes beneath HBeam)
- IPS
Those are all true reasons that c.mp has a reason for existing, none of which would be overshadowed by s.mk.

sMK currently sets up cLK/MGR IIRC and that's really good so
That actually isn't fast enough to start preblock, so it's not a real mixup (unless you're talking about s.mk, runstop which is +9). She would still be able to c.lk/DDrop if s.mk had vacuum.

For that specific setup with MGR though, she can actually do s.hk, runstop instead, which is +8. The only ground based c.lk/MGR mixup that's faster (that I can think of atm) is s.hp, runstop, MGR/delayed s.lk; the s.hp is +12, so MGR hits on its last active frame and c.lk can be delayed by a couple frames and still catch upbacks. s.mk is good for giving that c.lk/MGR setup diversity, but she can do it off of a lot already so I wouldn't stress it.

This next part of the post isn't directly to Glllt but: the main reason I thought about vac was because if it becomes good as an "I know you were going for a low confirm and I hit s.mk", it's hard to really confirm into anything. Max rang doesn't connect with anything Bella has other than Titan Knuckle, l lnl, and cerecopter.

Oh yeah. Speaking of lnl, can we also get some reason to use the different lnl's? I can't find a single reason to use lp lnl, and little reason to use mp lnl. Hp lnl is good as an assist and is good for fishing for lnl into lvl 3 (which I like doing), so that is fine, but they are all easily punishable on block (all are -6). I'm fine with hp lnl being that punishable, but I feel like mp and lp lnl should have a bigger incentive to use. lp lnl is actually slower than Titan Knuckle, does less damage, has no properties like knockdown, has similar (the same? smaller?) range, and can't be canceled to make safer.

As for proposed changes:

cut lp's startup ~16f, or make it -3 on block. This would make lp lnl the same speed as BB's lp brass, albeit with less range, and unpunishable by anything other than SSJ (only 2f super right?).

As for mp lnl, cut its startup to ~24f, increase hitstun to at least +5, reduce blockstun to -4. This would put startup around where lp was/lower, but still not faster than BB's mp brass (20f), and reward landing a hit with it (either in neutral or after s.hp/s.hk/whatever) with a real mixup with c.lk/DDrop. It would also leave it punishable by more supers, but still prevent Filia/Fortune/whoever else from jab punishes, or even Bella herself from punishing with DDrop.

I think hp lnl is fine.
 
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It's punishable on block by BB (super), Filia (normal/super), Fortune(normal/super), Bella (special/super), Valentine (super), Double (lvl3), and Fukua (lvl3), not counting Alpha Counters. You can make it a bit safer by doing it further from the opponent, though this doesn't matter much with certain super punishes and plenty of ACs. It isn't a free punish, but it isn't safe.

Titan Knuckle is -5 btw. Why would I ever lp lnl over TK in neutral?
 
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I take back the word "easily". I said other stuff tho?
 
Zidiane said:
Titan Knuckle is -5 btw. Why would I ever lp lnl over TK in neutral?
Don't know if this count as 'in neutral', but you could condition your opponent to throw you out of H lnl startup on reaction (e.g. by repeatedly going for something like blocked c.LK>c.HP>H lnl + assist call timed so the assist hits after LnL and makes it plus on block). Then you could go for the same setup with L lnl, counterhit their throw, and convert from the assist hit. Very gimmicky but gimmicks are cool. I guess what I'm saying is that unlike titan knuckle, L lnl looks exactly like H lnl on startup and can be used after blocked heavy attacks.
 
Mr Peck said:
I guess what I'm saying is that unlike titan knuckle, L lnl looks exactly like H lnl on startup and can be used after blocked heavy attacks.
Oh, I know it can do that kind if thing. I personally don't like that gimmick (hp lnl into US gimmicky is common, and anticipating that breaks the suggested gimick), but I do understand it's there for the added pressure from heavy attacks. However, if they pushblock my heavy, I lose any semblance of safety due to pbgc, so I personally prefer runstop pressure if I'm going to do anything. I also would rather have c.lk, c.mp be my poke than c.lk, c.hp; more range (I think), better route on hit, and more options if it doesn't go my way.

But yeah, mostly talking about finding a way to buff lnl in neutral and/or on hit/block.

Edit: and, well, s.mk buffs.
 
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sMK is +5 on block and + on hit
You use it point blank (where the lack of range doesn't matter) as an alternate hitconfirm string over cLK cMP

Not every button has to be godly in neutral.
At least it has a use at all, unlike .. many buttons, by many characters.

Bella is good -on every position, in every team, no less-, has an answer to every situation, and is a complete toolbox in general.
You'll live if you have 2 specials and 1 normal that are slightly worse than the rest of her kit.

I wonder how your posts would look like if you played chars that aren't Bella and Fukua..
 
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IsaVulpes said:
I wonder how your posts would look like if you played chars that aren't Bella and Fukua..
I... do play other characters? I play Eliza, Big Band, Peacock, Filia, Squigly, and Fortune.

I brought up s.mk because the intention behind the move appears to be allowing it to go over lows. It is still a slow normal that would get hit by anything, including any crouching light that isn't a low (and Big Band's c.lk). Vacuum was simply suggested to accent the initial change, which is helping it go over c.lk buttons.
 
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Heres the thing i am not understanding.
Is the buff a need or a want?

Like for instance. One buff i think would be needed for parasoul is that spiral flare pushes the people down like s.hp change on hit.

Reason why is because people jump before they get hit by spiral flare and it ends up not converting correctly at times in my experience
 
Cadenza said:
Like for instance. One buff i think would be needed for parasoul is that spiral flare pushes the people down like s.hp change on hit.

Reason why is because people jump before they get hit by spiral flare and it ends up not converting correctly at times in my experience
please don't make this a real thing, it would mess up a lot of cool tech I have with this move.
 
This is probably already known, it just happened to me in training mode so I figured I'd just make a note of it just in case. I saved state in the middle of a combo (during Pummel Horse) and had health set to normal. And for some reason when I reset the state and continued the combo, the total damage indicator would actually go down instead of up. Subsequent resets didn't change the number and it continued to go down I believe.
 
Cadenza said:
Heres the thing i am not understanding.
Is the buff a need or a want?
Well... how many of the current changes are needs and how many are wants? Parasoul doesn't need that change you just suggested, she functions without it. Fukua doesn't need to be able to hold shadows. Eliza didnt need a completely new servant grab, but it's really nice to have. Peacock doesn't need a new L teleport.

The s.mk change I suggested is a want, yes, just like many other changes.
 
I'd argue Fukua does need a mixup option to replace the old m shadow and holding shadows is the current experiment. So yes she needs it. Though I don't play peacock I'd say peacock does need a new L teleport because the current L teleport had no use according to recent memory.

Sent from my SM-G386W using Tapatalk
 
Swiftfox-Dash said:
This is probably already known, it just happened to me in training mode so I figured I'd just make a note of it just in case. I saved state in the middle of a combo (during Pummel Horse) and had health set to normal. And for some reason when I reset the state and continued the combo, the total damage indicator would actually go down instead of up. Subsequent resets didn't change the number and it continued to go down I believe.
Oh yeah. This. It happens with other stuff too, sometimes. I think if you save state during a command grab it does this? I don't remember the conditions.
 
Cadenza said:
Like for instance. One buff i think would be needed for parasoul is that spiral flare pushes the people down like s.hp change on hit
I would not like that because there are a lot of good LR mixups I get from jbLK operating as it does now, especially with tear.
 
Not having a use is fine, LTeleport's rehash is to try and fill the lack of tools she has when up close.

To clarify, she needed an adjustment on up close tools, so LTeleport was chosen to experiment on because of that.
The experiment was STARTED because of LTeleport being argued as useless, but people argue tools are useless all the time.

At least this is what I perceive. So yeah, asking for a useless tool to get something works, sort of.

Every few months someone got upset that MSpiral and MDrill 'aren't useful.' They aren't supposed to be useful/as useful.

First off, you can find a use for tools in this game. I used MSpiral in some wacky assist combos because the timing was just right.
Needed more hitstun the LSpiral but not as much as H because I needed to recover soon still. I forget the assist. It's an example.

Anyways, MSpiral doesn't NEED to do anything special. It exists so that.. there's something between L and H Spiral.
LTeleport, on it's own, didn't need to do anything special either IMO, but Peacock does need retooling for up close encounters.

I wouldn't ask if LLnL or MLnL are useless/useful or how much you value they can do, I'd weigh whether or not Bella is LACKING anywhere that changing those tools would benefit her, and by lacking, I mean does she need a buff? Does she need a buff? That's not up to me. I'm not sure.

But if she needs one, it should be based on fixing apparent flaws in her gameplan rather than trying to make sure every tool has some sort of equal or defined/unique use that you feel weighs in value to your other tools. At least IMO. If Bella is suffering in matches universally because she NEEDS to dodge lows with sMK for some very important reason, buff sMK?

Maybe? You still have sMK confirms with assist, don't you? Can't you?

"Max rang doesn't connect with anything Bella has other than Titan Knuckle, l lnl, and cerecopter."

Oh you can. sMK LLnL+Assist. This is what I do with cMP LLnL + HBypass.

Also, MLnL is not useless. It's a reliable high damage special that connects off sHP (thanks mike! that was a change sometime back) that you can macro with an assist to start your combos, and although you can do this with battle butt, not all assists like the launching that battle butt does. It also means if you start pressure with sHP MLnL+Assist, you have access to supers since you're still grounded, unlike battle butt, which means acting out of your armor on reaction with super.

You can still talk about whether or not she needs some sort of buff, I legitimately do not know.

But I'd like to talk about if she NEEDS to get non-assisted combos off sMK going over a low. Does she NEED that?
Is her gameplan hindered without it? I never thought I needed this. Should I be doing this?
 
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gllt said:
I'd like to talk about if she NEEDS to get non-assisted combos off sMK going over a low. Does she NEED that?
Is her gameplan hindered without it? I never thought I needed this. Should I be doing this?
You made some excellent points. I would say that if we asked "is bella lacking in a way these buffs would help", then I would say yes.

Her c.lk is slower than most others, so around the edge of her c.lk range (outside her c.lp range) most people are free to poke her out without worrying about much. At this range, MGR used to be the go-to option for this, as it was hit invincible so it could beat pokes. After that hit invincibility was removed (I think to prevent it from going through reversals?) she was left with that gap in her neutral. She used to be able to cover that range without getting hit. Giving her the s.mk would let her emulate the old MGR for the purpose of beating pokes (but only low pokes).

A better mp lnl would give her a similar option, beating pokes at this range, but would let her deal with a wider range of them (like squigly's c.mk) while giving her a low/throw on hit (or something else with assist, or dynamo into whatever). I can't think of a good reason for lp lnl to get a buff other than "it would be nice".
 
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Bella cLK is 8f which is the same or faster than just about everyone else, plus "around the edge of her cLK range" barely anyone can poke her with a low anyway, because their attacks don't reach that far.
 
nice post twerk

I'm still trying to fetch replays of Bella being wonky, I haven't been playing enough games with her in it.
Does anyone else have replays of Cerebella falling out of shit that works on the rest of the cast or randomly making you turn around consistently even though she's not Squigly?
 
I agree that useless=needs a fix. However, something being useless because it does not do it's designed purpose is something I would put toward fixing. Even if that character "doesn't need a buff". That being said, I think intentional "flaws" in gameplay design "low damage, high mix up" or "bad up close normals, you aren't gonna touch me in the match" are fine. Not everything has to be good or useful.

Also, on the note of M spiral, I have a combo where I use it with an assist not only for timing but because of the less amount of hits allow it to scale better. I also use it in an L/R mix up because it does more damage as well as not being as fast as H.

I'm of the opinion every move should have a purpose. However, that purpose shouldn't always have to be obvious.
 
i agree that I feel like pretty much everyone in the game feels fine, all characters are going to have strengths and weaknesses and spacings that are good for them and spacings that are bad for them etc etc. issues that would need to be fixed are ones where a weakness or a bad spacing is something that occurs frequently enough to make the character feel weak or ineffective. The majority of the peacock buffs I think are a good example of this; peacock was a good character but a lot of people felt like she could use some QOL buffs on defense, sure I can see that. (Teleporting while holding item is really dumb but everyone has said that already). I agree with gllt that bella doesn't feel weak (i DEFINITELY don't think she needs buffs) and even if she has a particular dead zone in neutral it doesn't seem like she really has any issue working around that area.
 
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