Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

[Negus Eyoel]

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States

too bad HE CAN'T GO TO ANY OF THEM BECAUSE HE'S FROM CANADA YOU FUCK UP

 

[Sydoh]

Sonic's point is, if you don't see a problem with retail M Shadow, then you're not good with Fukua enough to make your input matter.

Except, the strength of Old Shadow M is not what I'm arguing at all, and never have been. I've explained this in both my major posts on this issue and it seems no one wants to read them entirely. I have said numerous times that Old Shadow M doesn't need to come back.

My argument has always been that Fukua should have reliable zoning, and I suggested this in the form of allowing her to have a 2nd Fireball out.
With the fireball's low hitstun and lack of versatility on offence, it doesn't have the same issues that Old Shadow M had for being and end-all, be-all utility tool and the 2nd fireball can be strictly used as a zoning tool.

What holding shadows does is create pressure on the opponent, but the shadows never actually control space while they're being held. They're a threat to allow Fukua to proceed with a mixup or some other offensive tactic, but they never actually zone the opponent.

This changes the dynamic of the character from "I'm going to throw some pokes out to either start something or keep you out" to "hang on while I charge horizontal item drop, and mix you up for days".

 

[SonicFox]

One more thing since you love to talk about contradictions

Beta Fukua does not let you zone and I fail to see how ack of zoning = better neutral.


She is not different and the same at the same time, and she is not better in every respect while being worse in those same respects. The changes in how her tools work clearly suggest the contrary.

I like being able to zone with Fukua, and her losing that changes her playstyle even if you think it doesn't. Just because she still has everything else with some new twists to her existing tools doesn't mean what she lost didn't impact how you have to play the character..

@SonicFox5000, you're not listening to me at all. You have these blinders on that anyone who dislikes Beta Fukua or speaks out against her CLEARLY must not be a "True Fukua Main" because those players "don't want to think" and want to spam Shadow M.
I have already explained to you that that is not the case, at the very least, for myself.

you pretty much state that her losing m shadow now means "OMG SHE CANT ZONE ANYMORE" yet state that you didnt spam that move, but used it for zoning. But its not like she has fireballs and other shadows zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[SonicFox]

Except, the strength of Old Shadow M is not what I'm arguing at all, and never have been. I've explained this in both my major posts on this issue and it seems no one wants to read them entirely. I have said numerous times that Old Shadow M doesn't need to come back.

My argument has always been that Fukua should have reliable zoning, and I suggested this in the form of allowing her to have a 2nd Fireball out.
With the fireball's low hitstun and lack of versatility on offence, it doesn't have the same issues that Old Shadow M had for being and end-all, be-all utility tool and the 2nd fireball can be strictly used as a zoning tool.

What holding shadows does is create pressure on the opponent, but the shadows never actually control space while they're being held. They're a threat to allow Fukua to proceed with a mixup or some other offensive tactic, but they never actually zone the opponent.

She already does. I explained that she does. You seem to not acknowledge. I'm done talking to you about Fukua until you actually learn how to play this character.
Like don't even respond. This proves you don't know how to zone as this character EVEN AFTER I EXPLAIN that its even better. From this point on I'm disinterested in what you or Zid has to say and will ignore most things you say about Fukua since you don't know what 2 fireballs would actually do to this character.

 

[Masqman]

Just leaving this here before I go to bed. I've said my piece about Bella dynamo b4 but just to some visual examples. This is a bit silly... [Full detailed explanation in an earlier post.]

Spoiler

Can it at least be made to where if they are in the middle of an attack it still hits them, cause crossup arm and SSJ are a thing and they get more from it than Bella does, and it's more unreactable; by more I mean same level of unreactableness .

 

[KhaosMuffins]

I'd say that the held shadow nearly acts as a second fireball. If Fukua has L Shadow held that limits my ground approach because I have no idea when that Shadow is coming out. If Fukua then jumps and throws out a fireball that limits another of my approach options. It's true that you can't control space as easily as you could with old M shadow (in terms of how much space it actually covered, not what happened after it hit), but that's largely because... M Shadow was just that good. Her pressure is DEFINITELY better, but her zoning I wouldn't say is strictly better or strictly worse; you just have to change things up a bit.

 

[Cadenza]

One thing that could be addressed.

about bella's dynamo. when the character dies the incoming character comes in right as bella's slams her fist on the ground. I believe this was brought up. Can this be fixed by any chance?

 

[dekillsage]

Okay so lets take a step back from the popoffs.

Fukua's zoning is almost as good as before, and in some cases it can be better because you can hold shadows and activate them with timings you simply couldn't do before. It can also be worse as well, because old scenarios we're already used to have changed so we need to relearn them and the end result will sometimes not be as good. Accept that.

What has changed is her space control. She clearly controls less space than she used too, there is a void where M shadow used to be, but there are other ways to deal with having that gone. At the same time, you can play around it and think of her space control differently. For example, set and hold M shadow, jump and do fireball super to punish an air approach, let go of m shadow to get a pick up. So much potential... yet you guys seem to be ignoring it?

Holding shadows helps, using fireballs differently also helps. Having 2 fireballs is too much control, and Fukua isn't a zoning character... at least not to me.

You didn't use M shadow to zone people, you used it to stop people from moving and then get a full combo off it on hit. It's a dumb move and little risk and super reward. New shadow at least lets your opponent approach from the air, but up close -> midrange you have amazing air to air and anti air buttons to use, as well as the new utility and calling a shadow that's in play.

I do not understand as a Fukua player how this is as big of a deal to you guys as it is. You do the exact same thing you used to do, minus throwing out a safe kill everything move. Her zoning/control does not feel worse, it's pretty much the same when you use her new tool on top of what she can already do herself.

 

[SonicFox]

dont gatekeep me sage somebody is dying

 

[Silktail]

I think the Fukua changes are definitely interesting

Her set play is definitely going to be really interesting to see develop. I agree wholeheartedly that two fireballs is a horrible idea. Fukua was never about completely zoning your opponent. it was about forcing them to be careful and watch their step when approaching. this new Fukua i feel emphasizes that even better with threats literally staring you in the face onscreen. I definitely feel like shes a little worse/requires more work but that's what happens when you're one of the most versatile characters in the game.

 

[Tank]

@ more normal moves having projectile hit boxes.

That may be interesting to try out. We already have peacock, robo, and Eliza with normal move projectiles why not more.

Parasoul- c.mp, squiggly-c.lk, robo-c.mp, peacock-c.mk(pretty sure that's the ant laser)

Sure Bella could reflect some more moves but I'd imagine it'd be as difficult or more difficult than getting a counter with Valentine.

 

[gllt]

Why should they be that though, Eliza doesn't need to cHK through Parasoul cMP or get out of Squigly poking low with cLK by doing sweep (but I assume you mean cLP)

Robo cMP being a projectile ruins burst baits
In fact so does Para cMP

This just seems like a really weird idea that I have no idea why you would want to try

 

[BigEffinDud]

Why should they be that though, Eliza doesn't need to cHK through Parasoul cMP or get out of Squigly poking low with cLK by doing sweep (but I assume you mean cLP)

Robo cMP being a projectile ruins burst baits
In fact so does Para cMP

This just seems like a really weird idea that I have no idea why you would want to try

Robo c.MP doesn't ruin burst baits
Edit: Can't speak for Parasoul though

 

[skull person]

@ more normal moves having projectile hit boxes.

That may be interesting to try out. We already have peacock, robo, and Eliza with normal move projectiles why not more.

Parasoul- c.mp, squiggly-c.lk, robo-c.mp, peacock-c.mk(pretty sure that's the ant laser)

Sure Bella could reflect some more moves but I'd imagine it'd be as difficult or more difficult than getting a counter with Valentine.

Why would you want this.
What makes it "interesting?"

There are so many things that have weird unprecedented interactions with these normals if you change them, most of which I listed.
You'd kill all the burst baits that work for those normals too.

Just why? So Valentine can't counter them?
(Which SUCKS because Valentine just bet two meters on it and lost it all because someone made Squigly's foot a projectile..?)

This is a really in all purposes of the word "random" change.

Robo c.MP doesn't ruin burst baits

It would if it was a projectile.
That's what gllt and I are saying.

 

[keninblack]

People just scrolled past my post huh?

 

[gllt]

Yeah, sorry, but this is an absurd thing to ask for if you ponder the implications

Projectiles cause gold bursts.
Valentine can't counter projectiles and loses 2 meters.
Cerebella can reflect projectiles.
Normals with hits that are partially projectile like Double jHK and Robo jHP IIRC get MCH rather than HCH on the projectile part hitting and the projectile parts also do not hit high, but instead mid. (Pea jHK is the same. To make it clear, the initial hits of jHK for both chars can hit high, but avery, the projectile, hits mid, and gives MCH, not HCH. This is IIRC. I might be wrong.) i can't think of other normals with projectile parts at the moment, but that is still a notable bit about two/three I can clearly think of right now. Oh wait, Pea sHP. I think it's the same too? Can't check right now. Now I'm curious.

Things like this are things you keep in mind when you talk about this whole idea.

Now Para cMP is not a true burst bait. Okay, that sucks. Eliza also cHKs through it and Bella reflects it when I already have to worry about her reflecting my tear shots during pressure. Neat, why. cMP should be a way to try and call out reflect, not lose to it.

I'm Val and Squigly did cLP/cLK and I lost because it's a projectile and I tried to do counter. Uhhhhh.
Uhhh. No? Yeah I don't think so. This is just weird.

Oh, could big band just parry Squigly cLK with forward parry because it's a projectile? I forget how his new parry works.
Loll? And Pea cMK?

Come on now.

 

[trainedbydeath]

Have Fukua clones cost health?

Reduces amount of uptime for clones but makes it still viable if player can do it into conversion
Slightly bigger risk as game moves on, still big reward on hit

 

[Zidiane]

From this point on I'm disinterested in what you or Zid has to say and will ignore most things you say about Fukua since you don't know what 2 fireballs would actually do to this character.

I said nothing about fireballs.

I was also saying the same thing you were saying, that she changed (you said for the better and I said she has new things she can do). I talked about an example of new things she was capable of the very first time you quoted me. I haven't spent the time you have with Beta Fukua (Beta things tend to change, I don't like diving too deep into something that ends up changing) but I've done nothing but say she herself seems to have changed for the better.

Spoiler: times I've said I like new Fukua/she's improved on point

I played quite a bit yesterday and used h shadow hold in neutral and I can play different than I can in retail. I enjoyed what I could do.

[m shadow was] used for neutral and setups, but it's gone so I don't do that anymore.

the changes to fukua outside of retail m shadow I like, I like all of them

I can maneuver around just fine. I can hold shadows and call assist. [...] I'm not having a problem playing the character, hitting things, or moving around.

She can hold high shadow and call low assist and fish for confirms, she can do this in neutral if given space or in specific setups, or after bff (after bff she gets left/right too). Those aren't things she could do as effectively before. There are more assist options she can use to greater effect now. She has more flexibility.

I honestly don't mind if people ignore me, but please don't pretend it's because I'm ignoring Fukua or ignoring what you're saying (or that I think she needs two fireballs (she obviously doesn't)).

5K of GUARANTEED Chip doing Fireball super Clone Fireball Super

It looks like this setup is 2k of chip, and if they pushblock the first or second hit they can jump out taking only 1k chip. Even shadow hold, h drill, super, shadow, h drill, super is only 3k on block.

Edit:

I do not understand as a Fukua player how this is as big of a deal to you guys as it is.

All I said about that is that she unequivocally has less assist utility. For people who don't want to play her on point and didn't use drill/l shadow/h shadow assist (people like me), it's a big change. I'm okay with people (you and sonic) saying "that's fine", or "so what", or "she still has drill/l shadow/h shadow", or "she's better on point", but it was an important thing to me and the way I (and other people) played. The same thing could and would be said if you took away any other interesting and distinct assist a character had (brass, beat extend, updo, bomber, napalm shot). This is a team game, a character's assist choices shape the team. Team dynamics are important.

Edited: made it slightly shorter. Didn't need all that extra.

 

[Masqman]

Squigly suggestion:

Similarly to how Big Band can opt to use the taunted SSJ or taunted Bell toll (timpani drive???), can Squigly be able to not use her charged specials by holding down the button. She still wouldn't be able to special cancel specials or anything I'm not aware if that would break her anyway since her only buff from having charges is being able to cancel using KK/PP (Which is hella good, I'm just saying she doesn't get an inherent passive buff). I think this would be a nice addition as well as open up combo routes due the retaining of charge.

For example: Sometimes I have K charge but then get a max range cHP now I have to decide between spending bar to keep charges or spend a charge to force the to "get over here".

Second: I'm not sure possible this is to do or game breaking it is, but can there be an increase in the buffer window for PP/KK cancel>dash. I'm not sure if it's just an "I'm bad, my inputs are" thing but even in slow motion I'm I can't seem to do it very well. A lot of the times I'm just getting cancel sit there but then if I hit it again I get sLP. It's especially an issue if I'm trying to Normal>236KK>button dash(PP); the funny thing I get Snapback like 70 percent of the time and stand there another 25, and dash 5 percent but only while it's charged? Anyone else having this issue.

[Edit again] ok maybe not hold the button but something idk maybe make where if its released after a certain frame count.

[edit] sorry for double posting again

RE: Para cMP being a projectile

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, nopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopeonpenopenopenopenope.

But in all seriousness, though thy are we changing things to be "interesting", just stop you are ruining people stuff pls. This is worse than people doing bad things to "start a conversation".
Like look above, yeah it's long winded but it's a detailed explanation about an issue I think could be addressed to the benefit of squigly players. I don't even play that character that often.

[Final Work edit] I was thinking "maybe 3buttons!!" but I noticed not only does the game not recognize that but I can't move when I do that only with punches, though. weird... Like all my inputs even stop in the feed on recordings so it wouldn't even show up? I don't know how to send it to anyone or bug report it.

 

[Zidiane]

Honestly, can't other characters set up similar situations to the Fukua loop with the right assists anyway?

In retail, Fukua's loop is netting 3.2k (c.lk, c.mp, c.hp, c.lk, c.mp, c.hp, m shadow), but with Bella and h osiris I can get 4.5k off of a similar setup midscreen (c.lk, c.mp, s.hp, runstop, c.lk, c.mp, s.hp, mp lnl+osiris). In the corner I can make it pull them out of the corner (c.lk, c.mp, s.hp, runstop, c.lp, c.mk, kanchou+osiris) for 3.9k. After the osiris I can air grab, hit left, hit right, go high, go low, s.lk to catch buttons, or burst bait.

I feel like the question is really less "why should every character except fukua etc.", but "is it okay for characters to use assists to make loops, and if so how good can the loop be before it's too good". Because if this Eliza loop is fine, I don't see why the Fukua assist creating a similar loop is not okay.

Recorded the situation

 

[Masqman]

Recorded the situation

I think I just found a new assist

Also, she can do this with butchers jus the timing is hella wonky cause muh vertical hitbox. That being said not as bad 1 character being able to do it by themselves.

 

[Zidiane]

That being said not as bad 1 character being able to do it by themselves.

Of course. But the point was made that doing it with retail m shadow assist was not okay, so I found another thing that works pretty much the same. Does this mean we remove all instances where this is possible, find some general change that can fix it, or is it actually fine for assist m shadow to do?

 

[zeknife]

Of course. But the point was made that doing it with retail m shadow assist was not okay, so I found another thing that works pretty much the same. Does this mean we remove all instances where this is possible, find some general change that can fix it, or is it actually fine for assist m shadow to do?

I don't know how considered this was, and it may be an entirely separate matter, but Fukua is tied with Filia for the fastest assist recovery animation in the game.
She's already leaving the screen by the time you recover from retail MK clone assist hitstun (Or at greater range, blockstun), it's definitely one of the lowest commitment assists in the game at most ranges, if not the lowest.
Any other assist that lets you do similar things is likely to at least put that assist at risk.

 

[Zidiane]

That's just neutral. Mike said he has no problem with m shadow neutral, the problem was with the loops, which m shadow's cooldown doesn't really make any difference with. I wouldn't be against a higher cooldown, but I don't think that particular matter comes into play with the things people want to get rid of.

I'm mostly right now genuinely curious if people think these loops overall are fine or if it's just fukua's assist loops that are problematic.

 

[KTFS]

Maybe you guys should stop arguing on this topic
Do I think Fukua's old M Shadow reset is stupid? Hell yes. Does it really matter how I think? Not really
because in the end the only feeling that matters is MikeZ's.
I doubt all this arguing is going to change MikeZ's feeling on Fukua's old M Shadow.

Anyways, I came across a weird thing where you can do some stuff at the right corner but not the left.

Spoiler

This is most apparent on Filia, Fukua and Squigly...I guess because they have the smallest hurtboxes.
Even though the move will hit other characters, it still looks different on the left side than the right side.
On the right side it looks quite normal; on the left side it will look like I clip into the opponent first and then get pushed out.
I doubt this is a Beta exclusive thing, but I just noticed it while doing some Beta experiments...so I posted here.

AND "*NEW* Getting crumpled in the corner no longer pulls certain characters out of the corner."
I thought this means you can't cross up via crumple in the corner anymore
but Val's grab still pulls Big Band out of the corner a bit for cross up.

Spoiler

Am I misunderstanding the change?

 

[Cattfish]

Have Fukua clones cost health?

But Fukua held clones do cost health

Also in training room, can Infinite health be moved down to Normal and when using Infinite, be allowed to see how much the damage would have done?? I keep scrolling back from 100% to normal when it comes to making combos and then testing them out with resets. Or maybe just let the whole thing scroll and not lock at Normal/Infinite.

 

[zeknife]

That's just neutral. Mike said he has no problem with m shadow neutral, the problem was with the loops, which m shadow's cooldown doesn't really make any difference with. I wouldn't be against a higher cooldown, but I don't think that particular matter comes into play with the things people want to get rid of.

That does make a difference. Assume the opponent somehow turns the tables on you with a good reversal, proper defense, alpha counters or whatever. If your assist is still standing around after your setup is done, not only is the assist at risk but it limits your options as well (Notably, you can't alpha counter to beat a safe dhc)

 

[Pickles]

That's just neutral. Mike said he has no problem with m shadow neutral, the problem was with the loops, which m shadow's cooldown doesn't really make any difference with. I wouldn't be against a higher cooldown, but I don't think that particular matter comes into play with the things people want to get rid of.

I'm mostly right now genuinely curious if people think these loops overall are fine or if it's just fukua's assist loops that are problematic.

my problem with m shadow is pretty summed up by what sage said:

You didn't use M shadow to zone people, you used it to stop people from moving and then get a full combo off it on hit. It's a dumb move and little risk and super reward.

now I know mike has said his problem was with the loop. But I think most people would admit that a single move covering as much space as M shadow, getting a full combo from 3/4 screen, AND being able to be used in reset loops is more than a little excessive. You can find assists that let you do reset loops (there are a lot of them for a lot of characters) and you can find assists that cover space and gives conversions like M shadow, but as you yourself mentioned, you can't find another assist that does BOTH, and IMO that's a good thing.

 

[Masqman]

-------Fukua w/ old M clone-------
Pros

• dumb LR setup for free
• still gets 2 assist calls
• loops forever
• dumb neutral tool

Cons

• Boring

-------Fukua assist old M clone-------
Pros

• dumb neutral assist
• any character
• dumb LR for free with 90% of the cast
• Loops

Cons

• Boring

-------Eliza/Bella setup-------
Pros

• Loops
• Dumb LR for free

Cons

• requires a specific setup
• requires 2 specific characters
• Not nearly as boring, but still zzzzzz
• requires you play Bella neutral first

[Edit] My problem is that you couldn't just jump over it, it tracked, it launched, tears couldn't stop it, It went through everything (including projectile shield), and If you got clipped at all, at ANY point, even just a tiny bit at neutral it's "Pray and Believe" levels of Vortex until you die. TIEM-TO-DEI, my dude.

 

[Zidiane]

That does make a difference. Assume the opponent somehow turns the tables on you with a good reversal, proper defense, alpha counters or whatever. If your assist is still standing around after your setup is done, not only is the assist at risk but it limits your options as well (Notably, you can't alpha counter to beat a safe dhc)

I misunderstood what you were saying. I generally agree with the attacker getting punished for guessing wrong.

as you yourself mentioned, you can't find another assist that does BOTH, and IMO that's a good thing.

I wouldn't care if I couldn't convert into a full combo or reset with it.

-------Eliza/Bella setup-------

• requires a specific setup
• requires 2 specific characters
• Not nearly as boring, but still zzzzzz

I'm almost positive you can get this setup with this assist using more than just Bella. I also feel like there are other assists that pull people up in the air that could serve the same purpose.

 

[Adeveis]

If we are trying "crazy" things can Squigly's flames from c.lk, c.hp and the tips of j.mp and j.hp be a projectile hit box? Idk what other viable changes could make Squigly more interesting tbh. Maybe give her the move that Double uses in her lv 3.

K so i don't want to get pbgc'd reflected in my blockstrings. Also, that move from double lvl3 would make squigly too good. She already has good control over the screen sbo is really all she needs. you're asking to make her not as reliant on sbo and make it so that when she does use it, she'd be pretty rough to deal with for most the cast.

I think that Squigly could use a knockdown on her level 3. Would let it be much more consistent to combo off of and help prevent the need to use another bar to combo off of it at weird times.

super jump j.lk and/or H divekick works for me

Similarly to how Big Band can opt to use the taunted SSJ or taunted Bell toll (timpani drive???), can Squigly be able to not use her charged specials by holding down the button. She still wouldn't be able to special cancel specials or anything I'm not aware if that would break her anyway since her only buff from having charges is being able to cancel using KK/PP (Which is hella good, I'm just saying she doesn't get an inherent passive buff). I think this would be a nice addition as well as open up combo routes due the retaining of charge

Pls no



About robo

I played a first to 30 with PME in the beta and the changes to robo are definitely noticeable. My overall opinion is that she is worse. Her keep away is slightly better but not too big to really make a difference (That could however be in part to two of my characters getting tools to better help out against beams). She got completely gutted in her offense i feel. In retail Robo can use her zoning to move me to a spot she wants me to be then start her offense with her really fast dash and her frame advantage forcing me to deal with double jump pressure. However, in beta it feels she has no pressure up close at all. You can use heads to make up for her loss in plus frames but she really isn't scary to block so i don't feel pressured at all. She's forced into keep away which just makes her easier to beat since she can't really fight back when you get in on her. Her reversals are better but they are just as easy to deal with as M bang if not easier. I feel like I'm fighting a character who really can't do anything. You robo players chose mvc3 hsien-ko over ggac+r testament.


Also as a side note. the extra invincibility she gets on her lvl3 is really nice.

 

[Masqman]

I'm almost positive you can get this setup with this assist using more than just Bella. I also feel like there are other assists that pull people up in the air that could serve the same purpose.

Yeah she pops up the thing with those two in particular however is that
A. Reaction time
B. usefulness at neutral
C. Even though that setup may work with other characters. That is better than having 1 move work for everyone (I've tried that setup with Para and SQ, I couldn't even make it really work with Para so I gave up, Squiggles works but really only on launcher assist call effectively and she doesn't have the means to make nearly as mash deadly as Bella does from what I found)

The point. Do those characters have a dank setup? sure. The issue is that that move did everything for you: Pressure, Neutral, effective lockdown (if I can call LNL a lockdown assist I'm calling that a lockdown assist), a launcher, a tracking massive hitbox, and a few other things I'd rather not get banned for saying in chat. I'm done talking about this. New M clone is fine and has really good neutral and cool loops as well, it just isn't a magic tool does everything anymore, adjust.

Spoiler

NERFED

Pls no

Y not, would this be bad for her? I realized I messed up with the solution (hold down the button cause duh) but would that be beneficial to her atm especially in terms of combos/confirms.

[Edit] Thought about it a bit I guess this could possibly lead to a situation where squigly could keep a charge for the entire match and not be required to use it for combos etc. huh. You'd probably end up having to nerf her uncharged moves to encourage the use of the charged ones. hmm fair.

 

[MegamanDS]

Requests and reasons

Fukua m shadow - Is there any way we can make the grab 'grab' better? Anytime coming off a bounce, I feel like since the characters vary so much in weight and fall timing, it is very inconsistent. I training moded a ton and situations come up where the shadow falls short of grabbing. Also, situations on the fly like an assist hitting, reacting with a shadow that is timed good enough to hit before they land still sometimes doesn't grab because of the properties.

If the m shadow grab is going to change, may I suggest a vertical drill (similar to super animation) but for a small number of hits. It would act similar to chair toss but not cause green bounce. This would get rid of the vortex that was the issue and also give a zoning tool to keep the other side of players who want m shadow back happy. Fair balance IMO. If it's not going to change, disregard this.

Fukua shadows going further - The reason for this request is pretty simple. Shadows can now be held during combos. So now shadows can be used as combo extensions or resets. Since we now LOSE LIFE holding a shadow and have to have the skill of holding a shadow while still doing full combos, there are times where we get too far away from where we held the shadow that it doesn't reach which makes it useless. If the player is skilled enough and punished for holding a shadow, I think they deserve to be rewarded by letting it go further. Maybe the longer you hold it, the further it goes? Or just increase the distance in general to about 60% of the screen distance? I think right now lk shadow goes about 50%, m shadow 50% and h shadow 35%. Furthermore, can the range of the grab go further on hit like it was before? Not sure why that was taken out. Like in Sage's example, if you do a fireball super midscreen and you are holding a shadow, it doesn't reach to grab. I'm not even asking for full screen (although that would be nice), but the range seems to falls short in many combo setups other than the traditional cr. mp cr. hp

Parasoul diving body guard - Can we make him stop bella's reflector? I don't think her reflector should be able to go through it. It's supposed to stop projectiles (should be enough of a reason). Furthermore, if I'm good enough to cancel 'dive man' with a projectile to bait a reflector so I can go in and punish on recovery, I think I deserve it. Many of my plays against bella players is baiting reflectors.


That is all. Thank you for reading.

 

[MegamanDS]

About robo

I played a first to 30 with PME in the beta and the changes to robo are definitely noticeable. My overall opinion is that she is worse. Her keep away is slightly better but not too big to really make a difference (That could however be in part to two of my characters getting tools to better help out against beams). She got completely gutted in her offense i feel. In retail Robo can use her zoning to move me to a spot she wants me to be then start her offense with her really fast dash and her frame advantage forcing me to deal with double jump pressure. However, in beta it feels she has no pressure up close at all. You can use heads to make up for her loss in plus frames but she really isn't scary to block so i don't feel pressured at all. She's forced into keep away which just makes her easier to beat since she can't really fight back when you get in on her. Her reversals are better but they are just as easy to deal with as M bang if not easier. I feel like I'm fighting a character who really can't do anything. You robo players chose mvc3 hsien-ko over ggac+r testament.


Also as a side note. the extra invincibility she gets on her lvl3 is really nice.

She is now a full on zoner. She becomes stronger when paired with the right assists. If your play style was rush and you had assists to help you, that style did get worse. You are right. If you don't have assists to help zone, then you need to change that in order to make her better. Her zoning with no assists to help is not good as you probably experienced. Watch Liam play. He has robo with 2 dedicated zoning assists and it's near impossible to get in on his robo. Robo buffs helped his style play by 10 fold. You just have to change the way she is played by finding assists that help her zone or move on.

 

[Masqman]

Parasoul diving body guard - Can we make him stop Bella's reflector? I don't think her reflector should be able to go through it. It's supposed to stop projectiles (should be enough of a reason). Furthermore, if I'm good enough to cancel 'dive man' with a projectile to bait a reflector so I can go in and punish on recovery, I think I deserve it. Many of my plays against Bella players is baiting reflectors.

No, I'm a para player and I do not want this. The reason why is because Bella's toolkit that's really her main way of getting in especially against zone heavy characters. One of the things that make it useful is it property as a sort of "super projectile" that it forces you to respect and think more than twice about just throwing things out. That being said, you get a reward for baiting reflector by punishing reflector. Look

Bella options to get in---

DJ stuff
Run stop/Kanchou slide
Reflecting tears
Glide+button

Para's options to beat it---

Tear+jLP or jHP> armor and glide
Gets beat by lots of things>kanchou
Egret Hitgrab>Almost all armor stuff
Airthrow takes away a lot of Bella air stuff (I've air thrown jMP/j2MP on reaction) and that's like two of best air normals
Generally being a nuisance.

Also if the Solider beats reflect then so does Lenny because they are supposed to work the same now (for some reason).

 

[Lex]

Fukua shadows going further - ...

Change your combos to fit around the ranges of the shadows. Changing the ranges of shadows so that you can do your normal corner carry routes or whatever without having to think much about how you use your shadows in your combos doesn't make sense especially since an increase in their range would affect neutral as well and she doesn't need fullscreen/two third screen shadows.

 

[Tank]

someone made Squigly's foot a projectile..?)

Oops sorry. I ment c.lp. her flame thing. Squigly's flame is like never used so giving it some projectile negating properties would be neat.

Just like how most the other normal projectiles have a regular hit box before the projectile the same can be done with parasouls c.mp. so it can stop some incoming projectiles and still get a blue burst if you cancel it before the projectiles come out.

 

[MegamanDS]

No, I'm a para player and I do not want this. The reason why is because Bella's toolkit that's really her main way of getting in especially against zone heavy characters. One of the things that make it useful is it property as a sort of "super projectile" that it forces you to respect and think more than twice about just throwing things out. That being said, you get a reward for baiting reflector by punishing reflector. Look

Bella options to get in---

DJ stuff
Run stop/Kanchou slide
Reflecting tears
Glide+button

Para's options to beat it---

Tear+jLP or jHP> armor and glide
Gets beat by lots of things>kanchou
Egret Hitgrab>Almost all armor stuff
Airthrow takes away a lot of Bella air stuff (I've air thrown jMP/j2MP on reaction) and that's like two of best air normals
Generally being a nuisance.

Also if the Solider beats reflect then so does Lenny because they are supposed to work the same now (for some reason).

Fair enough. Good rebuttal.

Change your combos to fit around the ranges of the shadows. Changing the ranges of shadows so that you can do your normal corner carry routes or whatever without having to think much about how you use your shadows in your combos doesn't make sense especially since an increase in their range would affect neutral as well and she doesn't need fullscreen/two third screen shadows.

The range is cut pretty short if you do any type of carry other than crossover resets.

 

[Masqman]

Oops sorry. I ment c.lp. her flame thing. Squigly's flame is like never used so giving it some projectile negating properties would be neat.

Just like how most the other normal projectiles have a regular hit box before the projectile the same can be done with parasouls c.mp. so it can stop some incoming projectiles and still get a blue burst if you cancel it before the projectiles come out.

>Having to use even more resources for a normal burst bait
Y????
She doesn't need this! She has a gd PROJECTILE SHIELD that actually works now. no need to make things complicated for one of her basic not ridiculously alpha counter able burst baits.

Fair enough. Good rebuttal.

Thank you :)

 

[Adeveis]

@MegamanDS

So what you just told me was I can only play Robo the way Liam wants to play her. Also it's keep away not zoning. Furthermore, yes duh assists make it better I've been playing against peacock since day 1. However, like peacock + assist it's not hard to get in and once you're in it's pretty much hell. Like peacock she has to rely on keeping her opponent out and using assists for mixup, because that's better than actual legit zoning? "The association of zoning with projectiles has also resulted in comparisons to "spamming". A major point to remember in avoiding confusion of the two is that spamming relies on the same tactics without any form of adaptability, i.e. constantly throwing projectiles during the whole match; zoning, on the other hand, relies on varied tactics, maintaining pressure, and the ability to adapt to the given situation and the opponent's moves". If you want to see real zoning, look at testament in guilty gear or look at this

Spoiler

I'm just trying to understand why robo players chose to give this up for something mediocre. You can never argue with me that her screen control is better than peacock's since she can have 4 things out at once so i don't see an amazing keepaway game with robo.