Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

[CaioLugon]

What if peacock's L item drop had SDE H item tracking but couldn't be held? It would be the go to option for zoning patterns but wouldn't take away the utility of the other versions.

 

[Zidiane]

Bella options to get in---
Glide+button

Para's options to beat it---

Tear+jLP or jHP> armor and glide

In addition, Sniper shot can beat glide anywhere on reaction. Glide takes 48f to recover from the smallest possible glide, and sniper shot is 19f before superflash. If you can react faster than 29f you can snipe her as soon as you see her glide.

 

[gllt]

@Masqman In my time labbing Squigly I've found she's a very well designed character. I've always admired it.

Never ever have I found an optimal full solo Squigly combo which lets you retain both charges and obtain a true sliding knockdown/crumple while also getting daisy pusher damage. The closest you get is ending in chord > daisy and charging kick there. This also throws away a lot of your daisy damage, so it's hard to call this 'choosing both damage and knockdown.' It is, but you're compromising a lot.

If I want good daisy damage, I lose chord/kick charge early in my combo.
No problem, charge it back after daisy.. and lose otg. Bye knockdown.
Okay, skip that, save otg, do knockdown to get a charge, lets uh.. no arpeggio.. right
Chord into liver mor- oh yeah stagger is gone. Charged punch moves don't give sliding/crumple..
Welp. Not even an SBO juggle can fix this now. I chose damage, not knockdown.

tldr: get an assist. Anyways.. Squigly chooses between pure high damage/knockdown and what resources she gets/can have. Saving charges by holding the special's button messes with this really nice balance she has, IMO. She can compromise or circumvent with assist, but the compromise is just that. She will not get early daisy in a combo and also get knockdown, both charges, and advantage from the knockdown all by herself. If I get this buff, I can save my kick charge and do regular chord > daisy > no otg combo > charged arp. High damage into knockdown, I earn back kick charge, I kept punch charge, and my assist call is free for whatever else now.

EDIT: I could save otg after daisy and do an SBO juggle for charged arp, but thats another meter. She has to spend another resource, it's unavoidable!

 

[MegamanDS]

@MegamanDS

So what you just told me was I can only play Robo the way Liam wants to play her.

It's the most optimal way to play her now.

@MegamanDS

Like peacock she has to rely on keeping her opponent out and using assists for mixup, because that's better than actual legit zoning?

Like Peacock, Robo has to rely on keeping her opponent out and keeping them out with assists which is keep away. Her buffs gave her more tools to keep the opponent away. For example, she can jump, do beam + assist, double jump and do another beam based on where the opponent now is.

@MegamanDSThe association of zoning with projectiles has also resulted in comparisons to "spamming". A major point to remember in avoiding confusion of the two is that spamming relies on the same tactics without any form of adaptability, i.e. constantly throwing projectiles during the whole match; zoning, on the other hand, relies on varied tactics, maintaining pressure, and the ability to adapt to the given situation and the opponent's moves".

Yes thank you, I am very familiar with the terms.

@MegamanDS


I'm just trying to understand why robo players chose to give this up for something mediocre. You can never argue with me that her screen control is better than peacock's since she can have 4 things out at once so i don't see an amazing keepaway game with robo.

Not sure if you've seen me play or my previous posts on the matter, but I am 100% for reverting the changes back. I also don't like 'keep away' or 'zoning' with robo but you have to remember, that's what Mike intended the character to be. Liam just so happens to play robo the way she was meant to be so these changes happened to help his style rather than other play styles.

 

[Cattfish]

@Liam do you have any recent recorded footage of you somewhere that Robo Fortune players can see how you're playing right now?

Also footage of Fukua players who deem themselves good.

A lot of people are playing but there's not a lot of tapes (besides random 3am stream archives). When loketests for other games come out people find footage and release it (ala Jourdal) and that's a good way to find examples of what's hip and happening with their respective characters. There's a whole lot of YOU DON'T KNOW and no one teaching.

@Adeveis I agree with you but I'm not going to write another Robo post when all of the responses are the same.

 

[alexpi]

In addition, Sniper shot can beat glide anywhere on reaction. Glide takes 48f to recover from the smallest possible glide, and sniper shot is 19f before superflash. If you can react faster than 29f you can snipe her as soon as you see her glide.

Man, I can't react to Fukua's armored grab. What makes you think I can react to Glide?

 

[dekillsage]

What the hell are you talking about @Adeveis??? Robo can do the same thing she did in that video + more???? I'm hella confused, and to me it sounds like PME just hasn't adjusted to the character yet and you both are ready to make complaints before utilizing her tools.

You want to know what feeling helpless actually feels like then try playing Robo against me in the retail version and see how long you can keep me out with her old moveset.

 

[Adeveis]

It's the most optimal way to play her now.

I don't see it but thank you for this very useful information.

Like Peacock, Robo has to rely on keeping her opponent out and keeping them out with assists which is keep away. Her buffs gave her more tools to keep the opponent away. For example, she can jump, do beam + assist, double jump and do another beam based on where the opponent now is.

Pretty sure I said or at the very least hinted at these tactics being pretty meh. Well I'm saying it now at least. Ima be a bit more clear and go on to say it seemed way better when she could lock you in that same spot and pressure you.

Yes thank you, I am very familiar with the terms.

Are you? Because from what you type, it seems like you don't. Especially when you say things like below.

Not sure if you've seen me play or my previous posts on the matter, but I am 100% for reverting the changes back. I also don't like 'keep away' or 'zoning' with robo but you have to remember, that's what Mike intended the character to be. Liam just so happens to play robo the way she was meant to be so these changes happened to help his style rather than other play styles.

Correct me if I am wrong but I'm pretty sure Testament was one of the inspirations for Robo. I don't see how changing her away from this playstyle is what mike wants. What do I know though.

 

[Adeveis]

What the hell are you talking about @Adeveis??? Robo can do the same thing she did in that video + more???? I'm hella confused, and to me it sounds like PME just hasn't adjusted to the character yet and you both are ready to make complaints before utilizing her tools.

You want to know what feeling helpless actually feels like then try playing Robo against me in the retail version and see how long you can keep me out with her old moveset.

Keep you out? WHY WOULD MY WHOLE GAMEPLAN BE KEEP YOU OUT!!!? Also why challenge me to play a character I don't main against the second best skullgirls player? I don't see how that would prove anything.

 

[MegamanDS]

I don't see it but thank you for this very useful information.



Pretty sure I said or at the very least hinted at these tactics being pretty meh. Well I'm saying it now at least. Ima be a bit more clear and go on to say it seemed way better when she could lock you in that same spot and pressure you.



Are you? Because from what you type, it seems like you don't. Especially when you say things like below.



Correct me if I am wrong but I'm pretty sure Testament was one of the inspirations for Robo. I don't see how changing her away from this playstyle is what mike wants. What do I know though.

Ya either I'm not understanding what you're saying or you're not understanding what I'm saying.

Robo is now better for keep away and zoning given her new tools. She is now worse for rushing down. I thought I was agreeing with you but you seem to be arguing with me.

With the right assists, the way Liam plays her, it's her most optimal gameplay. Maybe I should ask since you seemed to disagree with that... What do YOU think is her most optimal playstyle NOW in beta if it isn't zoning?

@dekillsage second best skullgirls player?

TRIGGERED

 

[Zidiane]

Keep you out? WHY WOULD MY WHOLE GAMEPLAN BE KEEP YOU OUT!!!?

You may have missed it, but there was discussion earlier in the thread in the vein of "Robo should lose some of her offensive pressure and rushdown in exchange for better Zoning". Some people want her to be a heavy zoner to diversify the cast.

 

[Masqman]

@Masqman In my time labbing Squigly I've found she's a very well designed character. I've always admired it.

Never ever have I found an optimal full solo Squigly combo which lets you retain both charges and obtain a true sliding knockdown/crumple while also getting daisy pusher damage. The closest you get is ending in chord > daisy and charging kick there. This also throws away a lot of your daisy damage, so it's hard to call this 'choosing both damage and knockdown.' It is, but you're compromising a lot.

If I want good daisy damage, I lose chord/kick charge early in my combo.
No problem, charge it back after daisy.. and lose otg. Bye knockdown.
Okay, skip that, save otg, do knockdown to get a charge, lets uh.. no arpeggio.. right
Chord into liver mor- oh yeah stagger is gone. Charged punch moves don't give sliding/crumple..
Welp. Not even an SBO juggle can fix this now. I chose damage, not knockdown.

tldr: get an assist. Anyways.. Squigly chooses between pure high damage/knockdown and what resources she gets/can have. Saving charges by holding the special's button messes with this really nice balance she has, IMO. She can compromise or circumvent with assist, but the compromise is just that. She will not get early daisy in a combo and also get knockdown, both charges, and advantage from the knockdown all by herself. If I get this buff, I can save my kick charge and do regular chord > daisy > no otg combo > charged arp. High damage into knockdown, I earn back kick charge, I kept punch charge, and my assist call is free for whatever else now.

EDIT: I could save otg after daisy and do an SBO juggle for charged arp, but thats another meter. She has to spend another resource, it's unavoidable!

Yeah it would kinda break her flow huh? Anything doing on the triple punch thing? guess I'm just spoiled pro playing Para and skelebro

 

[dekillsage]

Keep you out? WHY WOULD MY WHOLE GAMEPLAN BE KEEP YOU OUT!!!? Also why challenge me to play a character I don't main against the second best skullgirls player? I don't see how that would prove anything.

You posted a video of PME playing run away for like 90% of the game and then say her gameplan isn't to do just that? Please.
I can beat every Robo Fortune player in the world, it doesn't matter who it is. If I played PME and he tried to rush me down he would die just as fast then as he would now. I can prove that, I've done it before.

You're telling me her rush down is worse when she can still run at me in half a second and double jump cancel on my head if she wanted too. You're telling me she can't do good pressure when she has stagger strings -> mine. You're telling me she's weak on defense when she has every tool in the book to get out of pressure via read or via pbgc. You're telling me she's worse when she's clearly better.

The way you play Robo Fortune is to be as annoying as possible. Being able to zone is an extension of that idea, being able to move as fast as she does is an extension of that idea. Her damage output is low (even though it really isn't), but she can spend a bar to put you in a knockdown state for free and go back to doing whatever is best for her to do at the time.

I've played Sonic with the new Robo, and he did the same exact shit he used to do without any complaints, and he had more set ups and it was more difficult to hit him. The complaining never ends from you guys.

 

[Cattfish]

Friendly reminder that Peacock can keep it on lock even if she's a zoner thanks to item drop vortexes and throw's knockdown. She has a fast overhead with IAD j.LK.

Robo not having overheads with djc is dumb because usually it's jump j.MP djc backwards crossup j.mp/j.hk . She can't convert instant overhead j.lp without assist. She doesn't have a vortex (she can't use Eliza spiral because her dash is too fast/walk too slow) (j.hk reset can be jabbed out from the air) and s.HK is easy to react to. Her playstyle offensively is so linear that there's no place to come up with many resets outside of c.mk crossunder or a djc mixup.

Her damage output is low (even though it really isn't), but she can spend a bar to put you in a knockdown state for free.

Thats not free and to be an annoying character Robo needs meter to DHC out too. Her assists are a third of what make her annoying.

 

[dekillsage]

Friendly reminder that Peacock can keep it on lock even if she's a zoner thanks to item drop vortexes and throw's knockdown. She has a fast overhead with IAD j.LK.

Robo not having overheads with djc is dumb because usually it's jump j.MP djc backwards crossup j.mp/j.hk . She can't convert instant overhead j.lp without assist. She doesn't have a vortex (she can't use Eliza spiral because her dash is too fast/walk too slow) (j.hk reset can be jabbed out from the air) and s.HK is easy to react to. Her playstyle offensively is so linear that there's no place to come up with many resets outside of c.mk crossunder or a djc mixup.



Thats not free and to be an annoying character Robo needs meter to DHC out too. Her assists are a third of what make her annoying.

*land a hit*

*st.hk-> call 2 heads -> magnet super*

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[MegamanDS]

If I can take a few games off Sage with my beta robo, then she's fine. My robo sucks.

Also, was there a reason to take away the link off of st. mk with robo?

 

[mcpeanuts]

What if peacock's L item drop had SDE H item tracking but couldn't be held? It would be the go to option for zoning patterns but wouldn't take away the utility of the other versions.

I dunno. I mean, if you weren't planning on charging the item, wouldn't you just use L literally all the time? It feels like that would make people autopilot even harder with Peacock. It might be better but I don't think it would be as fun.

One of the neat things about L item is that it doesn't track, which you can use to make it hit someone in situations where M item would whiff. You can predict someone will move into the area it controls and drop it as they do. It isn't really very GOOD but it is NEAT. It would kind of be a bummer if it lost that.

If anything it might be more interesting if it dropped further away from Peacock, maybe around the max range of M item. Using it predicatively is cool but it's not as useful as it could be since it only works from a range where you never want them to be in the first place. If you could use it from a bit further it could be more practical. @Swiftfox-Dash what do you think?

 

[gllt]

I'm just glad LSoID exists for combos. If it gets changed it's cool though.
Right now it lets me accomplish some cute routes though.

 

[SonicFox]

Uhh robo is better than ever. I play Aggressive robo so i would know. Im sad to lose DJ instant overheads but its warranted. Her pressure is still just as good. Her tools are some of the best in the game
Spiral does setup a vortex wtf are you talking about @Cattfish
But now her zoning is even better than before as well as utility. Daily reminder to spend longer than 10 mins in training

 

[Cattfish]

@SonicFox5000 Options off of Spiral:
Stay same side -> Throw, low, or instant j.LP (usually always unconvertible and you just used your assist so you don't recover assist to convert)
Dash underneath -> be a bit too far for c.LK or throw to connect
Wavedash -> c.LK, throw, super jump (after pressing down, jumping will give you a superjump)
^Problem is that you can see the dash robo does and it's easy to tell if she crosses under.

 

[SonicFox]

@SonicFox5000 Options off of Spiral:
Stay same side -> Throw, low, or instant j.LP (usually always unconvertible and you just used your assist so you don't recover assist to convert)
Dash underneath -> be a bit too far for c.LK or throw to connect
Wavedash -> c.LK, throw, super jump (after pressing down, jumping will give you a superjump)
^Problem is that you can see the dash robo does and it's easy to tell if she crosses under.

No you can cancel her dash with cr.lp which makes it ambiguous as i dont know what. Can air throw ground throw left right and loop into a head.

 

[Cattfish]

No you can cancel her dash with cr.lp which makes it ambiguous as i dont know what. Can air throw ground throw left right and loop into a head.

That used to be my go to reset when I played cilia Slide but I have never found it to work with eliza. C.lP would autocorrect if it switched sides. Spiral has good lock down usages to warrant it elsewhere while slide is garbage.

 

[Fuego]

She can't convert instant overhead j.lp without assist.

 

[SonicFox]

That used to be my go to reset when I played cilia Slide but I have never found it to work with eliza. C.lP would autocorrect if it switched sides. Spiral has good lock down usages to warrant it elsewhere while slide is garbage.

Spiral is one of the most amazing assists for robo

 

[Bigtonney]

@Masqman
EDIT: I could save otg after daisy and do an SBO juggle for charged arp, but thats another meter.

On Band -for some reason-if you do chord(precharge)xxDaisy(precharge) you still have time to hit him before he falls with the face to the ground (so in otg state) with a c.mk, the result is the crouching hitstun animation, the same thing as hitting him right away without charging. From there you get your high damage with Serio arp.
I think by reducing the recovery animation of a successful Daisy (think of beta's Band lk A-train) would give her time to finish charging and keep the otg.

 

[Adeveis]

You posted a video of PME playing run away for like 90% of the game and then say her gameplan isn't to do just that? Please.
I can beat every Robo Fortune player in the world, it doesn't matter who it is. If I played PME and he tried to rush me down he would die just as fast then as he would now. I can prove that, I've done it before.

You're telling me her rush down is worse when she can still run at me in half a second and double jump cancel on my head if she wanted too. You're telling me she can't do good pressure when she has stagger strings -> mine. You're telling me she's weak on defense when she has every tool in the book to get out of pressure via read or via pbgc. You're telling me she's worse when she's clearly better.

The way you play Robo Fortune is to be as annoying as possible. Being able to zone is an extension of that idea, being able to move as fast as she does is an extension of that idea. Her damage output is low (even though it really isn't), but she can spend a bar to put you in a knockdown state for free and go back to doing whatever is best for her to do at the time.

I've played Sonic with the new Robo, and he did the same exact shit he used to do without any complaints, and he had more set ups and it was more difficult to hit him. The complaining never ends from you guys.

Ya either I'm not understanding what you're saying or you're not understanding what I'm saying.

Robo is now better for keep away and zoning given her new tools. She is now worse for rushing down. I thought I was agreeing with you but you seem to be arguing with me.

With the right assists, the way Liam plays her, it's her most optimal gameplay. Maybe I should ask since you seemed to disagree with that... What do YOU think is her most optimal playstyle NOW in beta if it isn't zoning?

K so you all keep calling zoning and keep away the same thing. You all assume I'm talking about a rushdown style when that really is not the case. You all want to put words in my mouth and apparently read every other word I type. Apparently it seems like I'm arguing about the best way to play robo. Apparently I challenged the ego of the great dekillsage and he must aggress me into submission.

I played a first to 30 with PME in the beta and the changes to robo are definitely noticeable. My overall opinion is that she is worse. Her keep away is slightly better but not too big to really make a difference (That could however be in part to two of my characters getting tools to better help out against beams). She got completely gutted in her offense i feel. In retail Robo can use her zoning to move me to a spot she wants me to be then start her offense with her really fast dash and her frame advantage forcing me to deal with double jump pressure. However, in beta it feels she has no pressure up close at all. You can use heads to make up for her loss in plus frames but she really isn't scary to block so i don't feel pressured at all. She's forced into keep away which just makes her easier to beat since she can't really fight back when you get in on her. Her reversals are better but they are just as easy to deal with as M bang if not easier. I feel like I'm fighting a character who really can't do anything. You robo players chose mvc3 hsien-ko over ggac+r testament.

Was not asking for anything to be changed. Was not complaining about her at all. I'm sorry I just stated my opinion.

 

[Cattfish]

@Fuego GGs I have never timed delayed j.mk enough for that to work. Rescinding all overhead comments now.
@SonicFox5000 i've been using L Servant for anti-zoning/Robo mirror and for +1 head midscreen combos but if the c.LP mixup works with Spiral then I'll give it another shot. L Chair would theoretically provide the same mixup but I have it yet to work more than a handful of times in like 10~ hours training room and x hours in matches.

 

[Pickles]

L Chair would theoretically provide the same mixup but I have it yet to work more than a handful of times in like 10~ hours training room and x hours in matches.

even if it gave you the same mixup options (which I admit I am skeptical about BUT i dont play either char so idk) lockdown is very good for robo, imo would be worth taking over chair just for that, but one of main benefits is the immense amount of chip that spiral does. Pressure aside, robo's mixup is objectively weaker now due to loss of DJC overhead so an assist that lets you do an immense amount (meterless, I'd hazard a guess at 2k between spiral and beams but this is a rough estimate) of damage without actually having to open them up is very good for her. Sonic does the same thing with fukua/spiral; keep you blocking with held shadows while you have to just hold chip damage.

 

[PME]

Liam just so happens to play robo the way she was meant to be so these changes happened to help his style rather than other play styles.

That's because he suggested the majority of these changes though (???)
Also, the original major influence for Robo was Testament, not keepaway, to clarify.

PME just hasn't adjusted to the character yet

But I have though (??)

try playing Robo in retail and see how long you can keep me out with her old moveset.

She's not supposed to keep anybody out in retail (????)

I wasn't trying to keep Lazy out, I was trying to make him go where I wanted him to go, and then start my upclose game (i.e. Testament)

I haven't been complaining about Robo at all either, like what? Lmao. I wanted her to be a true keepaway character since day 1.

Here's where the problem lies, and what I realized over the past 2 days: She's still trying to keepaway almost the same way as she does in retail. And that means that she can't keep them out for much longer than she can in retail, which means it feels like she still tries to make you move where she wants you to.

The one thing that didn't change once she does get the hit, is her left/right. Like Fukua, she has to reset more to kill, which is completely fine.
But
Once they block correctly, you're at a higher risk of danger than Fukua or Double.

For her to have a better defense, she wants heads, which means that you're most likely ending your first hit confirm of the game into s.HK to gain those heads (unless the opponent gave you the time to get them). So if you're planning to approach and land a hit, some of the time, you're gonna need to land that hit twice.
She's kinda dead as an anchor, she thrives more in a 3-man team with her on point, but that's not saying much from her regular "keepaway" in retail

 

[hilaryyy]

Have Fukua clones cost health?

Reduces amount of uptime for clones but makes it still viable if player can do it into conversion
Slightly bigger risk as game moves on, still big reward on hit

"Look here Carmine players, you want the kit, you get the /whole/ kit."

 

[gllt]

On Band -for some reason-if you do chord(precharge)xxDaisy(precharge) you still have time to hit him before he falls with the face to the ground (so in otg state) with a c.mk, the result is the crouching hitstun animation, the same thing as hitting him right away without charging. From there you get your high damage with Serio arp.
I think by reducing the recovery animation of a successful Daisy (think of beta's Band lk A-train) would give her time to finish charging and keep the otg.

That sounds neat, I didn't know she could do that.
I don't think she needs to save otg on the whole cast and get charge after daisy pusher though. That's my point.

Thanks for letting me know about that. Poor Big Band?

 

[dekillsage]

Keep you out? WHY WOULD MY WHOLE GAMEPLAN BE KEEP YOU OUT!!!?

You all assume I'm talking about a rushdown style when that really is not the case.

????

Apparently I challenged the ego of the great dekillsage and he must aggress me into submission.

LOL.

Apparently it seems like I'm arguing about the best way to play robo.

You're trying tell us she's bad/worse and that her previous version is worse when she has more.

I'm just trying to understand why robo players chose to give this up for something mediocre. You can never argue with me that her screen control is better than peacock's since she can have 4 things out at once so i don't see an amazing keepaway game with robo.

Was not asking for anything to be changed. Was not complaining about her at all. I'm sorry I just stated my opinion.

Sorry if your opinion leans more on the side of this character is clearly worse I don't understand why you guys wanted her to change. You never even talked about her new tools or what about her old tools changing affected her. You assume off one set with one person who has to relearn and rethink the character means she's all of a sudden worse.

K so you all keep calling zoning and keep away the same thing.

Two sides of the same coin.

But I have though (??)

Have you???

Here's where the problem lies, and what I realized over the past 2 days: She's still trying to keepaway almost the same way as she does in retail. And that means that she can't keep them out for much longer than she can in retail, which means it feels like she still tries to make you move where she wants you to.

Because this tells me you haven't.

I wasn't trying to keep Lazy out, I was trying to make him go where I wanted him to go, and then start my upclose game (i.e. Testament)

Okay and how did you end up doing that??? You ran away and shot lasers and moved around the screen. How has that changed???? IT HAS NOT CHANGED. Getting a person to move the way you want them to move via her zoning and runaway has not changed, its BETTER.

Once they block correctly, you're at a higher risk of danger than Fukua or Double.

For her to have a better defense, she wants heads, which means that you're most likely ending your first hit confirm of the game into s.HK to gain those heads (unless the opponent gave you the time to get them).

If you have a head you decrease that risk by a ton. You can still do a full bnb -> st.hk -> 2 heads -> hard knock down. You would do that in retail anyways because her other level 1 super builds the opponent way too much meter. That's a decision you had to make and you still make it except its better now???

Hell on defense she also has an invincible start up super she can dhc out of, a god anti air special, an armored attack.

She's kinda dead as an anchor, she thrives more in a 3-man team with her on point, but that's not saying much from her regular "keepaway" in retail

No she isn't?????
She wasn't dead as anchor in retail???????? What made her so much better? Tell me damage and I'm done here.

 

[RemiKz]

If peacocks bomb>teleport stays she shouldn't get invincibility on the start up of teleport when doing bomb>teleport. It's already really good without that.

Hella late but peacock is vulnerable for at least(?) 3 frames before she actually gets any invincibility from teleport.

 

[hilaryyy]

Small thing:

Parasoul Tear shot buffer and 5HP dragging opponents down actually makes the character pretty accessible to me for the first time. I hope it stays. <3

 

[mcpeanuts]

Okay and how did you end up doing that??? You ran away and shot lasers and moved around the screen. How has that changed???? IT HAS NOT CHANGED. Getting a person to move the way you want them to move via her zoning and runaway has not changed, its BETTER.

I don't want to speak for PME, but the way I read his post, I don't think he's suggesting otherwise. I read it as like, Robo's projectiles aren't something you can use as a strategy in and of themselves, because her keep away isn't strong enough for that. You use them as a means to an end: forcing them into a position where you have an advantage. The issue being that the end sucks so it doesn't matter how good the means are.

Whether or not that's actually true, I have no idea. I don't play Robo and I haven't played against one in a long time. That's just how I read it. I can't help feeling like you guys are arguing two totally different things.

 

[Tank]

Hella late but peacock is vulnerable for at least(?) 3 frames before she actually gets any invincibility from teleport.

I know. The problem I have with it is if you block the the bomb it leaves you in stun so you can't get at those 3 frames even if you chicken block. And a trade leads to a combo or advantage for her.

 

[Clawsome Bombs]

Thanks for changing Weight of Anubis it's pretty gr8 now when Eliza is using it though I would kind of like the old arc back when you have it as an assist because it's hella hard to actually confirm off the assist if Albus grabs 'em because they tech faster

Of course, I think I'm the only one in the universe who uses this assist so don't mind me I guess it'd be nice tho

 

[mpgame99]

Sorry for changing the topic suddenly, but I was talking with some people and we thought that it would be cool if Beowulf's 2j.hk caused him to double jump. As of now, Beo's 2j.hk is Beo's least used normal and is only used for sub optimal combos. This move can also be used to remove your chair for certain matchups, but even this purpose is outshined by H Hurting Hurl as it is also strike invulnerable and +1 on block. By making this move cause a double jump, it can become a lot more useful. It would allow Beo to do some pretty cool pressure and oki setups while also giving him a tool that can make his neutral much more interesting. In exchange for getting access to these better setups, Beo would have to go chairless and lose his j.hp and take extra chip damage and gives the new j.dhk a pretty big risk/reward.

 

[Cadenza]

Jesus.

 

[PME]

Two sides of the same coin.

Zoning and keepaway is squares and rectangles, actually

You ran away and shot lasers and moved around the screen. How has that changed???? IT HAS NOT CHANGED. Getting a person to move the way you want them to move via her zoning and runaway has not changed, its BETTER.

But that's exactly my point. She plays the same, only better, and that's the problem. She's still fishing for a hit to go into... v

You can still do a full bnb -> st.hk -> 2 heads -> hard knock down. You would do that in retail anyways because her other level 1 super builds the opponent way too much meter. That's a decision you had to make and you still make it except its better now???

Which means less damage, same amount of heads, and you chose to stay close now(?). But okay, now what's stopping me from downbacking, reacting to overheads, tech throws (that needs the right assist to convert midscreen, or a bar) and watch you burn both heads that you just got to potentially frame trap with s.HP > Mine.

Hell on defense she also has an invincible start up super she can dhc out of, a god anti air special, an armored attack.

DHCs have no hitstop, you can counter super. My first thought to anti-air is not L Danger lmao. The 3 frame reduction on the startup of s.HP definitely helped, but the major boost in that button getting better was a by-product from the head special changes.

She wasn't dead as anchor in retail???????? What made her so much better?

She had a better damage output to do better by herself when fighting against their full team with probably half the time left. So again, she needs a team behind her

Edit: @mcpeanuts Yea, the means are pretty good, the end feels very lacking essentially