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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

About hitting shadows - they're not for putting out and waiting, they're for backing up your pressure. Look up the non-SGC meaning of "setplay".

RemiKz said:
Also, am I the only one that thinks Fukua's c.MP and MK Shadow not having a vacuum hitbox in the corner is kinda too much? I hate fighting the character and even I think she shouldn't lose that.
If she keeps those then she has corner resets where she can just jump toward you with a held shadow and you have to guess.

@MegamanDS
"I played her as rushdown / the damage nerf hurts my gameplay"
Is it okay if I respond to that entire Robo part with "Exactly!" ?

...this IS sort of why I don't want to remove DJ cancels on block, though. I would rather like, see if I could make DJ normals not overhead or some junk first.

About Fukua's BFFs, here's the thing though: It's two hits, which means DHCing into it gives you an 80% combo afterward.
AND it gives crumple knockdown which means no tech is possible even if you already OTG'd.

Let's examine the supers that give untechable knockdown:
Sniper Shot, only able to combo after it vs ground, can DHC into it, 1750 damage.
Nekhbet Breaker, not able to combo after it, not able to DHC into it.
Fortune's CSF, not able to combo after it (one hit, that's it).
Robo's Magnet, not able to combo after it without specific setups and resource expenditure.
Daisy Pusher, only able to combo INTO it one way, not able to DHC into it (except by doing a stagger and then whiffing the super, for completeness).
then there's
BFFs, able to combo into it from far away, able to DHC into it from far away, able to combo after it, doesn't matter air vs ground hits, actually safe from a lot of distances, 2500 damage. And you can still leave them on the floor for untechable knockdown setups.
Now if I could make BFFs 1500 damage, I'd agree with not scaling the followups as much. I'd prefer making you unable to combo off it entirely, though...
 
Liam said:
Sure.

I wanted to see DJ cancel on block gone for a test which would be a heavy hit to what she can do when she gets close to you or touches you, to help balance out all of her other tools she gets at mid range and long range.

I'm also against increasing her damage again.

But I like the feedback let's keep playing together to see how she is.

Now that school is done, I will start playing again. If you're free in a couple hours, I'll be on to test these 2 characters more.
 
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Mike_Z said:
"I played her as rushdown / the damage nerf hurts my gameplay"
Is it okay if I respond to that entire Robo part with "Exactly!" ?

...this IS sort of why I don't want to remove DJ cancels on block, though. I would rather like, see if I could make DJ normals not overhead or some junk first.
Even if she's not using it to open you up, she doesn't have to commit to her jump ins when they are blocked.
She just needs one poke and then she can chose to run away or stick with it.
It's easy to get that one poke when they are super focused on dashing after you and getting close.
jMP/jLK/jHK/jMK/jLP DJC into jMP / jHK ambiguous fly ins + assist calls isn't very interesting pressure for either player, but it's effective and I don't think it's making sense to me why she should be doing that with all the new tools she has to stop people from hitting her.

It's extremely obnoxious to deal with without an assist that hits there, so you're just pushblocking a bunch hoping you can get the proper pushblock not during the multihit.

I also don't want what she's capable of up close to limit her potential from far away which is where I felt a big issue was in retail.

She certainly can't have both as you said.

That's my feedback, not sure how you feel about it.
 
So what I'm getting is:
  • ONLY M.Brass armoring lasers doesn't make sense
  • H.Brass's sliding knockdown is too good
  • SSJ would end up putting Robo at full screen, not really solving issue
... So here's just an idea I wanna toss around, what if only E-Break avoided all [heavy?] lasers for most of the initial recovery frames? Big band can have an in on a read for a laser, (on reaction if atrain/brass eats up to 2 hits of the laser already), no knockdown on Robo, and the gap can steadily decrease. Robo can fake out a laser and punish vulnerable recovery frames after E-Breaking?
 
JSlayerXero said:
It dawned upon me that I should've probably specified Shadow of Impending Doom where, if I recall, Peacock just stands around dancing until the dropped item hits the dirt. Yeah, like that exactly. Valentine would be vulnerable for a while while she puts the multiple doses into her syringe.
this is what the potential test would be. she loads a vial, recovers, loads again, recovers, loads again, and then exits.
On the next call, throw the vial
 
I really don't see a point in changing anything of Big band's for this particular matchup. It's actually like 6-4 Robo's favor in retail. When you have parries and the ability to hit her from near 3/4 the screen away if you predict her to beam/not block, It's just a matter of having good reads/reactions and patience which I don't see a problem with. If anything the matchup vs Fortune is much worse. It makes me want to cry when I play PME and lose Big Band for not blocking high once.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Oh, I wasn't aware I wasn't involved in the decision process. Good to know! :^)
You literally said this is what it would be.
Unless that is not what you meant, then I misunderstood and await being corrected.
:^?
 
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If you let that nurse get poison as an assist it'll be the end of all of us. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
 
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Mike_Z said:
"I played her as rushdown / the damage nerf hurts my gameplay"
Is it okay if I respond to that entire Robo part with "Exactly!" ?

Hmm, can we compromise? Robos instant overhead rush is her j. mk. Can we make it like Filia's j. hk to where it's not an overhead on the way up but is on the way down? This will stop her rushdown overhead game quite a bit.

Mike_Z said:
About Fukua's BFFs, here's the thing though: It's two hits, which means DHCing into it gives you an 80% combo afterward.
AND it gives crumple knockdown which means no tech is possible even if you already OTG'd.

Let's examine the supers that give untechable knockdown:
Sniper Shot, only able to combo after it vs ground, can DHC into it, 1750 damage.
Nekhbet Breaker, not able to combo after it, not able to DHC into it.
Fortune's CSF, not able to combo after it (one hit, that's it).
Robo's Magnet, not able to combo after it without specific setups and resource expenditure.
Daisy Pusher, only able to combo INTO it one way, not able to DHC into it (except by doing a stagger and then whiffing the super, for completeness).
then there's
BFFs, able to combo into it from far away, able to DHC into it from far away, able to combo after it, doesn't matter air vs ground hits, actually safe from a lot of distances, 2500 damage. And you can still leave them on the floor for untechable knockdown setups.
Now if I could make BFFs 1500 damage, I'd agree with not scaling the followups as much. I'd prefer making you unable to combo off it entirely, though...
Hmm, how about making the 2nd hit a red bounce instead of crumble? That way if we used an OTG already, we don't get a follow up and is techable. If we haven't used red bounce, then we are forced to use it to follow up and can't do the meaty shadow red bounce combos after it (or any OTG combo for that matter). Can we try that?



Liam said:
I also don't want what she's capable of up close to limit her potential from far away which is where I felt a big issue was in retail.

She certainly can't have both as you said.

That's my feedback, not sure how you feel about it.
So it's a battle between making her all rushdown or all zoning? *RAWR*
 
MegamanDS said:
Hmm, how about making the 2nd hit a red bounce instead of crumble? That way if we used an OTG already, we don't get a follow up and is techable. If we haven't used red bounce, then we are forced to use it to follow up and can't do the meaty shadow red bounce combos after it (or any OTG combo for that matter). Can we try that?
That kills her new corner set-ups where she does it for the crumple into her new mix up involving held shadows which is really interesting.
I don't think Sage and Sonic would like that very much but I can't speak for them.

I think the crumple is more interesting but I'm not a Fukua.
 
i agree that i wouldn't want to remove crumple on bff, using it as a hard knockdown ender into setup is really neat and i think is a lot more...compatible? with fukua's new playstyle.
 
I have played around with her shadows. I think it's cool. I'm just trying a way to compromise not having BFF do no damage on the combo continuation. We can drop the initial damage like Mike suggested to 2000 or something instead of 2500.

Edit:

Also, Fukua's shadows get 'hit' by burst. Some of my burst baits no longer work since the burst animation makes the shadow disappear :(

I thought you liked my burst baits *cries a little*
 
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Why is it that air H beam as low as possible is +19 on aerial opponents and +12 on grounded opponents? It always bothered me and I don't think I've ever heard an explanation for it...
 
Big Band moving forward while parrying projectiles is a wonderful idea, yes.

But moving forward while parrying H Beam is an idea I can get behind and rewards the player for being smarter than just throwing out H Brass which you can E Brake if they didn't beam.

*sigh* I'll kick myself later but... I agree that Gato loops should be nerfed somewhat, at least the damage/scaling on H El Gato.
 
MegamanDS said:
Edit:

Also, Fukua's shadows get 'hit' by burst. Some of my burst baits no longer work since the burst animation makes the shadow disappear :(

I thought you liked my burst baits *cries a little*

Pretty sure you can still do those burst baits by holding the shadow for a sec.
 
Go figure, in retail when Big Band parries H Beam he already moves forward. Derrrrrp.

The distance itself isn't particularly rewarding though. You do get a free super jump out of every ground parry though, which I don't think Robo Fortune can easily contest.

Eh, the more I think about it the more I think that Big Band already has the tools he needs to navigate through Robo Fortune's zoning. They're not obvious like 'just fucking H Brass through it' but they're there. It's an obnoxious advance against Robo Fortune but not intractable.

But I'm just some solo Band scrub so whatever.

EDIT: More unsolicited suggestions: let Big Band dash cancel his parry. Parry a projectile, get free movement towards your opponent. Be godlike and parry all of your opponent's projectiles, advance straight up to your opponent.
 
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I saw some GONTA's tweet.
https://twitter.com/x/status/762828851437154304

I'll write some common responses among JPN players down from MY view.
(Including ones before the changes 2days ago)

・Fukua's holding shadow is totally fun. But not happy with damage nerf.
If you managed to do resets with shadows, that wouldn't make sence for that small damage.

・Robo-Fortune players are dying. Really. They lost hope for the huge damage nerf.(and H beam nerf)
(BUT one reson for this is they didn't see entire changes of Robo because there are no japanese change-notes so far. Actually I'm working on it.)

・Valentine's air dash shortcut is great and approval. But she can't throw on the air directly from the shortcut(446LPLK). Is it a bug?
Amabane was showing something for this and other topics on twitter(@syo_amabane , with #SGJP_feedback).

・Peacock could hardly continue combo after air throw in some cases? (or requring strict state cofirmation, such as height variation, opponent's weight variation)
Some players of her hopefully want some properties of past Ver. back(easily continueable at most cases), but they are also sure it could be too strong.
 
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NaminoriTwister said:
・Robo-Fortune players are dying. Really. They lost hope for the huge damage nerf.(and H beam nerf)
(BUT one reson for this is they didn't see entire changes of Robo because there are no japanese change-notes so far. Actually I'm working on it.)

I'm not sure whether to be amused or disappointed that all of the Robo-Fortune changes EXCEPT for the one that negatively affects one of her former best matchups somehow got lost in translation.
 
NaminoriTwister said:
・Valentine's air dash shortcut is great and approval. But she can't throw on the air directly from the shortcut(446LPLK). Is it a bug?
.
this got fixed
 
Flotilla said:
I'm not sure whether to be amused or disappointed that all of the Robo-Fortune changes EXCEPT for the one that negatively affects one of her former best matchups somehow got lost in translation.

Sorry, but would you point out what "one of her former best matchups somehow got lost in translation" is, for sure?

Some other general responses:
・"MikeZ once have said "Changes won't come ever." around the time of Robo-Fortune debut. Why the hell changes are comming this time? The game is totally OK now and the change will possibly destroy it."

*NOTE*:Players complaining this ARE NOT TOO MANY. Many JPN players are enjoying exploring brand new features. But some are *strongly* complaining this, including some top players in JPN.
*For details*: The MikeZ's statement above has generally been believed among JPN players for long. And sure, they started to seek evidence for that after this time's announcement, but they haven't made it until now. It could somehow be a kind of translation issues. Would someone make it clear whether it is true or not?
 
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If it is or isn't true it doesn't really matter? Changes are coming no matter what.
 
NaminoriTwister said:
・Robo-Fortune players are dying. Really. They lost hope for the huge damage nerf.(and H beam nerf)
(BUT one reson for this is they didn't see entire changes of Robo because there are no japanese change-notes so far. Actually I'm working on it.)
Yikes.
They haven't seen the shopping list of buffs in every other area.

NaminoriTwister said:
・Peacock could hardly continue combo after air throw in some cases? (or requring strict state cofirmation, such as height variation, opponent's weight variation)
Some players of her hopefully want some properties of past Ver. back(easily continueable at most cases), but they are also sure it could be too strong.
This is a really good point and something I wondered about to.
The air throw change basically took combos she could do easily, then made them impossible, and then they were reverted to this mid range thing where they are needlessly hard to pick up from.

@mcpeanuts
She can still do the exact same combos she was doing before any air throw adjustments right?
If so, is there a reason it needs to be hard?

-

Side note from playing tonight:
I thought Robo's magnet was a reversal vs air dashes, but I found out that it still loses to attacks post flash even if you let it go, so you really do have to DHC. : (
 
I do remember Mike saying after the Robo Fortune patch that he would likely do a final big patch ~6 months or so later once the meta had been given a chance to settle in case it was discovered that certain characters were too strong/weak.

So I guess it wasn't widely known, but it has been known (at least on Skullheart) that we would get some sort of balance update for quite a while. If I'm wrong then please correct me.
 
Lex said:
I do remember Mike saying after the Robo Fortune patch that he would likely do a final big patch ~6 months or so later once the meta had been given a chance to settle in case it was discovered that certain characters were too strong/weak.

So I guess it wasn't widely known, but it has been known (at least on Skullheart) that we would get some sort of balance update for quite a while. If I'm wrong then please correct me.
I remember it being IF he decides to do another patch, it would be six months later in the future or something.
But I don't remember it being confirmed.
 
Mike_Z said:
Okay, okay...you asked this in seriousness, so I'll give you a serious response. Remember, you asked.

I agree with your sentiment about Robo, and possibly Beowulf, having less time than they should have. (Given that I've improved, though, and that there is the Beta, I'm much less concerned than I would be if either of those things weren't true.)
And @night phyre is probably right - if I were just sitting around I wouldn't be able to stop myself from fixing things even after Robo. But I won't be just sitting around - whatever Lab Zero moves on to do will be what I move on to do, and will likely consume as much of my time as SG did at the beginning. :^|

The reality is:
I have been working on this game for 70-90 hours a week, straight - without a vacation - since 2011. I have done the jobs of something like twelve people for multiple years. I got married in 2013 and didn't take a honeymoon yet. And I get to deal with fans and non-fans on a daily basis. (I've already gotten around 50 complaints about the MKX PS3 stick driver requiring a DS4 and that's not even our game!)
If Skullgirls were another fighting game, it would be on the 4th or 5th paid revision by the time Robo's patch comes out. That's a lot of work.
I am also down quite a bit of money after working on this game, as are other members of Lab Zero. "Quite a bit" is maybe an understatement, too.
I. Want. To. Be. DONE.
Hide Spoiler
For comparison, the Gamasutra Salary Survey 2014 put the AVERAGE salary for a lead programmer/technical director with over 10 years of industry experience at $116,000 to $135,000 per year. HAHAHAHAHAHAHahahaaaawwwwwwww.


That said...I recognize it might be a good thing for the game, if there are identified problems.
If I weren't doing console port work and bugfixing and scripting new characters, which I have been doing all this time, then making changes for a new patch would occupy a much more reasonable amount of my time. And I do careabout the game, I wouldn't be here right now if I didn't. If it weren't starting immediately, and was under ~8 hours a week, and it ended at a defined date, I could probably swing that along with whatever else we're doing.

However:
- This isn't only my decision. I have no idea what the other team members think, or Marvelous.
- It wouldn't be right away, there'd be let's say a 3 month break at minimum before I even looked at what to do.
- I will not run an IGG, and there is no way Lab Zero would run an IGG, so raising any money would be up to y'all.
- My rate would be high for such work, since it's a hassle.

tl;dr
While there is no squidding way I'd do this myself, I am willing to consider one extra balance patch after Robo. It isn't simply my own decision, though, and you will probably not be able to raise enough money to make it happen just from the people that care about gameplay.

Mike ;~;7
 
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NaminoriTwister said:
・Fukua's holding shadow is totally fun. But not happy with damage nerf.
If you managed to do resets with shadows, that wouldn't make sence for that small damage.

Eyyyyyy, basically what I said. Glad there are others who agree with me
 
Receita Federal said:
this got fixed
Thanks I told this to players.

noaa said:
If it is or isn't true it doesn't really matter? Changes are coming no matter what.
Actually, I'm on a similar side of you. I'm having fun to watch new combos/resets/etc. comming day by day on twitter or elsewhere.

Liam said:
Yikes.
They haven't seen the shopping list of buffs in every other area.


This is a really good point and something I wondered about to.
The air throw change basically took combos she could do easily, then made them impossible, and then they were reverted to this mid range thing where they are needlessly hard to pick up from.

@mcpeanuts
She can still do the exact same combos she was doing before any air throw adjustments right?
If so, is there a reason it needs to be hard?

-

Side note from playing tonight:
I thought Robo's magnet was a reversal vs air dashes, but I found out that it still loses to attacks post flash even if you let it go, so you really do have to DHC. : (

Wow, that encourages me to make the Robo change-note into japanese ASAP. Thanks.
 
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NaminoriTwister said:
Wow, that encourages me to make the Robo change-note into japanese ASAP. Thanks.
Oh, yeah.
I was the highest placing Robo at CB (3rd) I know her pretty well by now.
[Really not trying to toot my horn but just to give context]
These buffs are absolutely fucking insane she's so much better now.

The damage trade off is 100% worth it in every area.

You don't have to reset even, I know Japan likes to reset but it's not necessary for Robo.
Her neutral was buffed immensily and her zoning tools and keep away options.

I guess just start with that and try and translate the changes.
 
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NaminoriTwister said:
It will take a while for me to read entire part, but...
THE FACT disclosured???
This is not a message sent to me, this is a message posted on these forums.
I just went very very far back to find it.

This was a little bit after Robo was released.

The point of this post, and the other posts like it, is that mike NEVER officially said this game was finished.
He specifically said:
"I recognize it [Changing the game] might be a good thing for the game, if there are identified problems."

The things that were changed in this patch, were identified problems after him analyzing the highest level of play for Skullgirls.
They were not changes from thin air.
 
I think the Double level 5 nerf is unreasonable. She is a character that excels when she has meter. The monster nerfs already nerfed that somewhat (and rightfully so, monster was too strong), but why level 5? Making it not TOD is fair, but right now you can get almost the same damage for doing level 3 + car.
 
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MegamanDS said:
Eyyyyyy, basically what I said. Glad there are others who agree with me
You don't need the damage though, because shadows just grant you insane corner block pressure that is pretty much second to none. You get pretty much free mix-ups even on pushblock as Shade demonstrated recently. Hell, my new Fukua strats are: hit confirmed? yes. Corner carry. Proceed to make opponents life miserable. And the damage nerf to BFF encourages players to use the crumple for setups, which I think is a fantastic idea.
 
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Liam said:
This is not a message sent to me, this is a message posted on these forums.
I just went very very far back to find it.

This was a little bit after Robo was released.

The point of this post, and the other posts like it, is that mike NEVER officially said this game was finished.
He specifically said:
"I recognize it [Changing the game] might be a good thing for the game, if there are identified problems."

The things that were changed in this patch, were identified problems after him analyzing the highest level of play for Skullgirls.
They were not changes from thin air.

Thank you VERY MUCH for your long journey of archives. Big thanks.

And it seems that "I. Want. To. Be. DONE." didn't come true this time, haha.
(It meant he just wanted to make updating done/quit updating with great effort for low salary, right?)
 
NaminoriTwister said:
Thanks a lot for your long journey of archives, thank you VERY much.

And it seems that "I. Want. To. Be. DONE." didn't come true this time, haha.
(It meant he just wanted to make updating done/quit updating with great effort for low salary, right?)
Working 90 hours a week for ANY salary will be taxing for one human :S
 
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What about BFF crumpling but not being able to continue unless you already had a shadow out?
That basically fixes DHCs, which was my big problemo.

About Double's Lv5, at full scaling....let's check!
All tested after 20+ hits, which is full scaling.

Double, tested on PW for the smallest air hitbox possible:
4681 for Lv3->car, requires OTG
5749 minimum I ever got for properly executed Lv5, generally 6300+.
Difference 1068. (Or 1650ish.)

Band:
7872 - 2260 = 5612 for Lv3->SSJ, requires OTG.
6875 for Lv5.
Difference 997.

Robo:
5978 - 2168 = 3810 for Cannon->Lv3, does not require OTG.
(5565 for Magnet->Lv3 = 3397
7215 for Magnet->Lv3->Cannon, which isn't possible = 5047)
6060 for Lv5.
Difference 2250.

Squigly:
6551 - 3430 = 3121 for Lv3->Spear->Daisy->SBO. 5 bars.
(Five SBOs is way less.)
4277 for Lv5.
Difference 1156 from FIVE bars of other supers.

So Double's minimum possible, scaled, proper Lv5 damage (I was still getting 6k mostly) is still the 2nd/3rd highest????????????????????????????????????????????
AND YET COMPLAINTS because she used to be able to ToD for no effort.
This community sometimes.

CaioLugon said:
Why is it that air H beam as low as possible is +19 on aerial opponents and +12 on grounded opponents? It always bothered me and I don't think I've ever heard an explanation for it...
Because it has more hitstun vs air! Several things have different hitstun vs air and ground for different utility, like Cerebella j.MP.

@NaminoriTwister
Oh hello! Thank you for posting!
NaminoriTwister said:
・Fukua's holding shadow is totally fun. But not happy with damage nerf.
If you managed to do resets with shadows, that wouldn't make sence for that small damage.
She can do high-low-left-right mixups with them that are VERY VERY GOOD. Getting 4-5k off one of those is bad.
Think of her as Zato in pressure, without the unblockable part.

NaminoriTwister said:
・Robo-Fortune players are dying. Really. They lost hope for the huge damage nerf.(and H beam nerf)
(BUT one reson for this is they didn't see entire changes of Robo because there are no japanese change-notes so far. Actually I'm working on it.)
I will see if we can translate them, at least Robo's. She got a HUGE AMOUNT of buffs.
 
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I would like to try out the BFF change. That seems very interesting to test out. Would the scaling on BFF to minimum still be in place or since you have to use a shadow to continue off of it, will it then be 55% scaling since shadows is 55%?
 
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