Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

[Mike_Z]

Gemology 2 is gonna look a lot like gemology 1, huh.

You did have like 2 years. :^P Just start Cerebella with no meter.

btw, didn't read if that was mentioned, but the super doesn't have to actually connect. Doing any super on whiff while squigly is in hitstun also makes the lvl3 disappear.

This is actually true of Val's level 3 poisons, too. Remember a couple times when level 3 poison disappeared and I wasn't hit by a super, but was never able to figure out the reason why.

WELL WELL WELL oops. Why don't I look into fixing that in both cases. :^|

3-4 of my go to high-low resets are still being auto-blocked with the new feature. I'm not too happy but I'll look for a work around if this stays.

Painwheel j.HK will not be the same under any new system, not because of hitstop but because the next hit of j.HK happens 4f before and is a mid, so it was invalidating the existing unblockable protection as soon as it made contact. You'll have to live with delaying that one, because that's the exact bug I'm fixing. :^P
What are the other two?

Also, I finally captured this. It happens not too often, but when it does, it's a bit annoying. Not sure if worth fixing.

Oh, I can extend the armor to the first active frame, that's an easy fix. I even reproduced it, just do SSJ on the 9th frame of Snuggle startup.

 

[MegamanDS]

Painwheel j.HK will not be the same under any new system, not because of hitstop but because the next hit of j.HK happens 4f before and is a mid, so it was invalidating the existing unblockable protection as soon as it made contact. You'll have to live with delaying that one, because that's the exact bug I'm fixing. :^P
What are the other two?

Actually, I wasn't even counting PW. It's the Fukua shadow hold stuff but I can just delay the shadow release I guess? And the others are all using fukua c.mk assist with parasoul and eliza. I think I just have to space out when I call Fukua.

Oh, I can extend the armor to the first active frame, that's an easy fix. I even reproduced it, just do SSJ on the 9th frame of Snuggle startup.

Oh cool! Glad you were able to reproduce it. I tried but I never could. It just happened to happen in match while I was recording.

 

[Datagram]

You have a generous amount of time to switch from holding left to holding right.

That may be the case for Deer's setup, but surely you understand that the only real limit to the speed of these setups is due to blockstop (not blockstun). Deer's setup gives the opponent about 0.6s to switch their block direction. The Squigly setup I found is about twice as fast as that, and I'm sure I could find even faster setups if I spent some more time on it. Plus, the existing setups are going to get harder to block with the new frameskip.

Also, my bad @Deer for not realizing it actually was your setup -_-;
In my defense, the video description still reads "deer didn't invent this setup, i did. it's mine. not that that matters, but, it was me."

 

[dragonos451]

You did have like 2 years. :^P Just start Cerebella with no meter.

Well, it will be my last video. Better make sure it's good.
Cerebella? C'mon, she's not the only one who can have fun ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

K, time to record that 8 dynamos combo before it's not possible anymore.

 

[Mike_Z]

Well, it will be my last video.

Why? ;_;

Plus, the existing setups are going to get harder to block with the new frameskip.

6f setups have a chance of being 1f faster, but if the setup's longer than 6f, it won't be affected much. (6-14f = 0f difference, 15-23f = 1f shorter possible, 24-32f = 2f faster possible, etc. My ranges might be off but it isn't more than 2f faster for anything under half a second.)

 

[dragonos451]

Why? ;_;

I never said it was my next video too! It waited 18 months, it can wait a bit more :^P
And to answer the question : I'm getting a bit done. Both motivation and inspiration have been steadily dropping for the last few months.
This, of course, could be fixed with a few marie changes.

Spoiler

 

[AlcoholicRobot]

Also, I finally captured this.

I knew this wasn't supposed to have happened! (thanks for including the end) Beo feels fun, interested to see how things teeter out when people get used to his new set ups compared to his old ones.

 

[Masqman]

Spoiler

Oh, I can extend the armor to the first active frame, that's an easy fix. I even reproduced it, just do SSJ on the 9th frame of Snuggle startup.

Welp, there goes my tear shit to beat wake up snuggle while still pushing buttons... it's fair though

 

[skull person]

I'd like to talk about my thoughts on the unblockable change a bit:

For those who are very upset about their set ups getting auto blocked please remember that it's only auto block after the first hit.
EX: If you do Fukua H Shadow > cLK / or / cLK > H Shadow, you can have a gap of 1F which makes it completely unreactable, even in this patch.

The same things can still be done with low / high assists.

If you choose to do a set up with a high and a low extremely close together, the benefit is that it's a complete guess on the opponents part when it comes to blocking it.
The downside now is that after you do that they also don't have to nail the extremely hard block switch window and then push block on that block switch window if they want to be safe for the rest of the mix up.

Most pressure / resets in Skullgirls at least attempt to be "block the first part then be safe from the rest for a bit".

If you block the air left right and pushblock you're invulnerable in the air for at least 25F.
If you block the IAD then pushblock AG down (which is a lot easier to do than anything involving high low assists or projectiles in retail) you're safe from the follow up for at least 25F.

You're at least given a reversal window after the invulnerability period because of PBGC, too.

With retail assist / projectile mix up you had no invulnerability until you made the blockswitch on top of having to block the true ambiguous 50/50 (then knowing when to switch), which I think is a little strong.

So all the same stuff still exists now, and the 50/50's are just as powerful and extremely ambiguous, you just don't get to open someone up because of some extremely difficult execution window barrier thing after they block the first part of your mix up on a complete guess.

18F may have been too much so that you couldn't possibly ever have to block a second hit from a projectile / low set up in any circumstances, yeah.
9F means that if you call them to hit close to same frame it will be auto blocked, but you get the really good 50/50 from that.
If you do a set up with more than a 9F gap (or whatever the hitstop is on the first attack) you are trading the true 50/50 in hopes to open the opponent up with the second hit, but the opponent could now possibly react fuzzy block it.

I don't think this is bad.
High low with assist was REALLY cheap* especially if you didn't have a meterless reversal or your level 1 had a shitty AA hitbox. (DC, EKG, Cat Scratch Fever)
4 years late? Yes.

*I never use this word ever.

 

[Mike_Z]

^ this. I agree that the super difficult mixup should be the first hit, which is still a true mixup, not the followups. Blocking correctly should be the correct answer.

To explain:
You were protected from the 2nd hit of a 50/50 before as long as it was within maximum of [hitstop or 6f], but you were not protected from any high->mid->low or low->mid->high setup, that could happen in 3f, which the entire cast has practical versions of with L George (or Fukua + shadow + mid assist now). You could pushblock and absolute guard, but you had to do that on the frame you were touched because you had to pushblock and then switch your block to get the protection, which takes 2 frames to do!

I didn't even mind the 50/50 stuff, which is why 50/50s are still present, but I did mind that.

tl;dr I'm fixing an esoteric bug that would have really mattered in a few years, if MvC2 is any indication. The community may be slightly unhappy, but the alternative is a MUCH worse game once execution monsters practiced those setups.

For example, under the old system, CE / PE (L George) / BB (L/M Giant Step) has a setup with combo, call L George that doesn't hit, Titan Knuckle, dash up, call BB, far c.LK -> bomb hits -> BB hits, which requires either frame-perfect absolute guard timing or switching your block within 2f, and is safe from the majority of reversals if you cancel the c.LK into run and then either runstop to continue or Battle Butt if they did something invincible. Peacock has something similar off a corner SoiD call into throw, Eliza has one with s.HKx2 into chair + c.LK + overhead assist, etc. It's the type of training-mode-in-versus-play stuff I have worked super hard to remove from SG.

 

[Stuff]

@Mike_Z I liked test 1 but because people have problems with test 1, test 3 is REALLY good.

 

[skull person]

Also,
9F gaps aren't really enough for gauging if the assist is coming in later or earlier, or when the item / shadow is going to activate.
With frame skip that could be 8F, then input delay gives you 4.5F to actually react to the second hit if it was done outside the 9F window.
You're still going to end up with hard to blockable stuff on a guess after the first hit if it's left at 9F imo, people just need to adjust for the new timing.

I liked the first iteration because it was very clear that you only get the true 50/50, and the blocker is rewarded for blocking it correctly.
But a lot of people really don't like that one, and that's fine I guess.

That's the last thing I'd like to comment on for beta and now I will quietly wait for the patch.

 

[Mike_Z]

I'd like as much in the game as can be humanly possible to be humanly possible. You still have to know the mixup is coming, but a 1-2f window to defend properly even when you know what you want to do is not a fair gauge of anything.

 

[Cheesedragon]

tl;dr I'm fixing an esoteric bug that would have really mattered in a few years, if MvC2 is any indication. The community may be slightly unhappy, but the alternative is a MUCH worse game once execution monsters practiced those setups.

I wish more people would acknowledge the fact that this game is still at the very beginning of it's life. It's still in diapers in fighting game-years. I'm excited for the long life this game has ahead of it and I'm not really interested in a sequel anytime soon, honestly, unlike some others.

It's the type of training-mode-in-versus-play stuff I have worked super hard to remove from SG.

Uhhhhh whatthismean?

 

[AlcoholicRobot]

Hi, me and the other Beowulf players are having trouble figuring out in what situations chair dance is useful in its current state? We just can't think of any where you would actually want to use it over anything else, so if anyone has any ideas I'd love to hear them, thanks!

Other than a taunt set up where you already use a hype to do and the weird situation where you want to do ex chair into arm it seems pretty not useful. The non-ex version in particular seems really useless.

 

[Tank]

There is a glitch when blocking with beo and Eliza. Sometimes when blocking with Beos belt or the various things Eliza blocks with those items appear in weird locations at random. Poccolla showed it happening with beo hear.

 

[MegamanDS]

Since beta might be ending soon and Mike is active again, I just wanted to ask about this again since it got buried...

I believe no meter gain on whiffed Fukua love dart is unjustified because when you are full screen away, all the love darts are easily dodgeable. Furthermore, it's the projectile with the longest cool down in the game which leaves her vulnerable for multiple frames while you gain NO METER for zoning. Love dart also gets beat by every other zoner character. Robo laser will destroy it AND hit you (while she gains meter and you don't). Peacock will shoot 4 projectiles while a bomb and an airplane are flying in your face.

 

[Sydoh]

Uhhhhh whatthismean?

He's referring to just going into training mode, learning some stupid good setup, and then repeating it on people because you're basically guaranteed to get a hit with it. The setup bypasses having to win the guessing game with your opponent and simply gives you a hit just because you got them to block.

In this case specifically, you either can't react to the setup, or you have to block correctly twice in a row in different directions within 2 frames, which is definitely too much of a requirement to ask of the defender.

I think some people call this "Setplay." Whether this is actually setplay, I leave that to everyone else to decide.

 

[skull person]

There is a glitch when blocking with beo and Eliza. Sometimes when blocking with Beos belt or the various things Eliza blocks with those items appear in weird locations at random. Poccolla showed it happening with beo hear.

Yeah I sent Mike a replay with it happening for Beo and I think Eliza.
Maybe it's hard to fix.

 

[Mike_Z]

I believe no meter gain on whiffed Fukua love dart is unjustified

Since she lost the M Shadow portion of zoning, I agree with this.

having trouble figuring out in what situations chair dance is useful
[snip]
Other than

Sounds like you have at least one! :^P

Regular chair dance does more damage than any other finisher, which I'm surprised nobody noticed. EX chair dance does more than any other finisher and allows a followup or a full safe taunt anywhere, as well as putting characters you may want away from you away from you, plus allowing Arm followup for corner push and DHCs for the most damage. It does more damage at 100% scaling, and if you already used the EX version of Killa in the combo, it does like 400 more damage than any other finisher at min scaling.

There's also at least ONE more use that makes a version of it completely unique among his grab finishers, and gives him something he has never had before from grab mode. I'll let you guys figure that one out.

There is a glitch when blocking with beo and Eliza. Sometimes when blocking with Beos belt or the various things Eliza blocks with those items appear in weird locations at random. Poccolla showed it happening with beo hear.

OH right. I fixed it for Eliza and Robo's shield a long time ago, but I forgot to fix it for Beo's belt. Lemme do that. Thank you!
[edit] AWESOME, a reliable reproduction method! THANK YOU Poccola!

I think some people call this "Setplay." Whether this is actually setplay, I leave that to everyone else to decide.

Setplay just means "you do X thing that handles all these options for you without you have to guess", like the SF4 okizeme OSes. An unblockable means it doesn't matter what you do, you just get hit. I gueeesssssssssss it sort of qualifies as setplay, but it's like S+ setplay.

 

[TheGamaniac]

There's also at least ONE more use that makes a version of it completely unique among his grab finishers, and gives him something he has never had before from grab mode. I'll let you guys figure that one out.

Ooh, is it the fact that chairdances give the same hit reaction to assists as it does point characters, and thus making EX Chairdance a method for solowulf to continue to combo both at once instead of being unable to pick up the assist?

Other things of note I've noticed with the chairdances...

• Against everybody in the corner except Double, you can squeak in cr.LP and not use up your OTG. She seems to hit the floor from the wallsplat ~3 frames earlier than the rest, and it seems like an unbufferable 1f link, but it's potentially a 3rd option for doing so without using OTG.

• On everybody except Painwheel, i've noticed he can OTG off of EX Chairdance for a midscreen meterless pickup by simply doing LK Blitzer as soon as landing. Painwheel's hurtbox around her head during the frontfall bounce is too low, but everyone else gets clipped and he can convert off of it. Mighta already been known, though.

• Neither chairdance seems to give Beo any meter. At all. This seems... off.

 

[Cadenza]

Other things of note I've noticed with the chairdances...

• Neither chairdance seems to give Beo any meter. At all.

i noticed the L blitzer as well but chair dance not giving beo meter is the strangest thing to me from just now trying to decipher what the use is for regular chair dance other than damage which beo players will just do Canis major instead.

Edit: i guess hitting the assist for happy-bdays are cool but not sure if that's the necessary useful thing. i don't play beo so oh well.

 

[Mike_Z]

Ooh, is it the fact that chairdances give the same hit reaction to assists as it does point characters, and thus making EX Chairdance a method for solowulf to continue to combo both at once instead of being unable to pick up the assist?

Yep! If you get the grab when they call an assist you get a free doublesnap for 1 hype.
I really hope people realize HOW good that is, because grab beats assist calls.

Neither chairdance seems to give Beo any meter. At all. This seems... off.

That has to be a bug.

 

[TheGamaniac]

Regular chair dance does more damage than any other finisher, which I'm surprised nobody noticed. EX chair dance does more than any other finisher and allows a followup or a full safe taunt anywhere, as well as putting characters you may want away from you away from you, plus allowing Arm followup for corner push and DHCs for the most damage. It does more damage at 100% scaling, and if you already used the EX version of Killa in the combo, it does like 400 more damage than any other finisher at min scaling

Decided to triplecheck the numbers for this, since regular chairdance definitely didn't seem to be the strongest *except* at min scaling when I tried it, and found some more peculiarities to go with some of the specifics i'm putting out here.

• If you grab the enemy and go straight into the dance, scaling doesn't start to kick in until the 3rd boot, totalling at 1925 damage (less than a Killa's 2100). However if you do any number of headbutts or knees first (doesn't matter how many), damage scaling happens on the 2nd kick onward instead, bringing the total down further to 1724 (slightly more than a Wulfdog)

• It takes your grabbing attack being the 12th hit or later in the combo (or around 0.34x scaling) in order for chairdance to outdamage a fresh Killa.

• It seems the "normal finishers do 50% after having used it's EX version" rule does not apply to the Geats, which further confirms that it's the 2nd best finisher at minimum damage if all finishers are fresh (620 to a chair Killa's 646) and best by far if you've used EX Killa (fresh chair Wulfdog does 536).

• Chairdance & EX Chairdance also do the exact same damage, so don't EX it if you aren't going to use the extra time or can't followup.

• Unrelated: EX Clinch Up in Beo's command list says it takes 1 hype, not 2. It also rather amusingly seems that Three Wulf Moonsault causes redbounce when the oppoonent lands on the floor before being squashed, and because of that the third hit actually gives you your OTG back if you've already used it mid-combo! This does mean you can't get assist pickups off regular finishers, but maybe there's some combovid potential there, or something practical if it can counteract the damage lost from DHCing before the 4th hit.

 

[Masqman]

Question about Blockstun thing because I'm having difficulty understanding even with the testing in training mode.

So, let's say like with cremation or something that's a multi-hitting low or overhead (hits H/L on the first hit that connects but then the rest are mids). Do the mid hits negate this protection? I'm not sure if it's super relevant (because the attacks might be too slow because muh blockstop) but does that mean theoretically you could have situations, where you do something like Parasoul jHK call Filia 2MK because the second hit of jHK could be a mid and Fast High>mid>low is allowed.

I've been using Sniper, Cremation assist + meaty Para j2MK or jHK. I've been noticing people get hit Low way more often when using jHK, could this be the reason?

If so could you do something like; Squigly: 236LP (sliding)>Orb super>DHC/Tag> Parasoul j2MK+Cremation for a Hard to blockable similar to retail? Maybe I'm overthinking this

I could get a video but it won't be till Monday since I don't have access to being able to record games or anything.

 

[DoubleOrNothing]

Would anyone be interested in adding a fourth hit on Squigly's c.LP? I don't see people use it much. Just to see what happens.

 

[Bigtonney]

I want to toss an idea that i found interesting but may be hard to make. i was thinking about make the hitbox of Squigly's c.lp a bit higher (not like the actual animation ,like her hands' height) for the first 5-10 frames so it would be more consistent (or at least it trades better ) but also it turns back to normal if you hold down the button too much. And it would make saving the OTG after Hdivekick mmmmuch easier (currently it works only on double)

Would anyone be interested in adding a fourth hit on Squigly's c.LP? I don't see people use it much. Just to see what happens.

I don't think Squigly needs a 4hits light, it's already her most damaging light (with no scaling) and adding extra hits means extra pushback so it would be harder to hit confirm with it.

 

[Triblue]

Question about Blockstun thing because I'm having difficulty understanding even with the testing in training mode.

I tested with Filia's j.mp plus low assist and I'm pretty sure the mid hits are ignored.

 

[MegamanDS]

Since she lost the M Shadow portion of zoning, I agree with this.

Oh why thank you!

I'm actually out of suggestions for Fukua, Robo, Eliza, Paraosul and PW.

 

[Masqman]

I tested with Filia's j.mp plus low assist and I'm pretty sure the mid hits are ignored.

ignored as in they stop the unblockable protection or as in the unblockable protection doesn't care about them?

 

[Burpinator]

I want to toss an idea that i found interesting but may be hard to make. i was thinking about make the hitbox of Squigly's c.lp a bit higher (not like the actual animation ,like her hands' height) for the first 5-10 frames so it would be more consistent (or at least it trades better ) but also it turns back to normal if you hold down the button too much. And it would make saving the OTG after Hdivekick mmmmuch easier (currently it works only on double)

I don't think Squigly needs a 4hits light, it's already her most damaging light (with no scaling) and adding extra hits means extra pushback so it would be harder to hit confirm with it.

What if we had c.lp pull in instead of push out? I pretty much don't use it at all so I'd be curious to as to what good squig players could make use of that.

 

[Triblue]

ignored as in they stop the unblockable protection or as in the unblockable protection doesn't care about them?

A mid hit won't get rid of unblockable protection.

 

[Masqman]

A mid hit won't get rid of unblockable protection.

Thank you!

What if we had c.lp pull in instead of push out? I pretty much don't use it at all so I'd be curious to as to what good squig players could make use of that.

What if it pulled in hard enough to make aerial characters move behind her. I think it would be cool especially considering it's a 10 frame light

 

[gllt]

The candle is so good.. you just knock them down and hold it on their wakeup...

 

[ShakyFingers]

I finally got around to making a video. If Dynamo kills on the first hit during certain enders - this has happened to me mostly during Copter>Dynamo - there are a lot of characters that will fall out during it, making you very minus. Against Double and the cats - and maybe others - they frequently fall out immediately after the first hit, making me completely punishable by many characters, and if they can't punish, I lose my momentum anyways. Can Dynamo not kill point characters until the final hit, like how Fenrir works?

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/x/status/797170005381173248

I apologize for the quality. It's the best I can do right now, and if it's too bad to get anything from, I can get a friend to make a better quality video.

 

[Masqman]

I would rather it would just extend the time it took for a character to come in after dynamo, cause sometimes characters will just fall out entirely which would lead to situations where it would otherwise kill but it didn't cause muh 1 health left...

 

[BigEffinDud]

I would rather it would just extend the time it took for a character to come in after dynamo, cause sometimes characters will just fall out entirely which would lead to situations where it would otherwise kill but it didn't cause muh 1 health left...

I think he means he wants it so that characters stick and cannot fall out of Gregor. Like when Mike explained that Fukua Lv.3 hitting you from across the planet was a copy Paste error from Gregor and "characters are not supposed to fall out of that" I don't think it's intentional for characters to fall out of Dynamo, but currently it's a thing.

 

[Mike_Z]

@ Squigly stuff
Making the flame hit taller won't help you save OTG after divekick, most characters go too far so you still have to dash...and dash s.LP is a lot easier than dash c.LP.
No to 4 hits, it's already disjoint and active for up to 60f, c'mon now.

Question about Blockstun thing because I'm having difficulty understanding even with the testing in training mode.

It USED to be (still is, in Retail) that being touched by a mid hit negated any protection you had from the previous high/low. So Painwheel j.HK: 2f hitstop, 1f goes by, next hit happens as a mid. Or Parasoul full-undizzy j.HP -> tear toss in the corner, c.LK on wakeup->tear hits as a mid->overhead assist hits. In those instances, in Retail, the next hit could happen faster than 7f and you would still have to block it properly.

In the Beta, that bug is fixed. Blocking with a high or low grants the full amount of protection that you should get, even if you are touched again by a mid before that window ends. That's the whole fix. The window has been returned to normal, which is the maximum of (length of hitstop or 7f), but the protection doesn't expire if you are touched again before that window ends.

It also rather amusingly seems that Three Wulf Moonsault causes redbounce when the oppoonent lands on the floor before being squashed, and because of that the third hit actually gives you your OTG back if you've already used it mid-combo!

Yep, been true since he existed.

I think he means he wants it so that characters stick and cannot fall out of Gregor. Like when Mike explained that Fukua Lv.3 hitting you from across the planet was a copy Paste error from Gregor and "characters are not supposed to fall out of that" I don't think it's intentional for characters to fall out of Dynamo, but currently it's a thing.

That was Fenrir. The last hit of Fenrir puts you in a known position and the bite was gigantic because it also only happens on hit.

The Dynamo thing, you just kinda gotta get used to. I play her and have it happen to me, and even I don't think that it shouldn't kill until the last hit. There's no really good solution, but I might as well explain what's happening:
When a character is dead and they touch the wall in air knockdown hitstun, they become invincible. This is to prevent dead body combos or infinites, a few of which are possible in MvC2. Dynamo's floorbounce ..... hang on, I think I just figured out how to fix this to get her to juggle dead people fully!

 

[Yomabuddy]

Can Robo 2LP gain one more active frame? Its low active frames make it hard to use as an anti air against stuff like BB j.LK, FU j.HK, and other jumpins since it often just ends up trading. Using L Danger raw in those situations works but is a huge risk since they can just land and not do anything and you die.

 

[Swiftfox-Dash]

Still no hope in fixing the copter - dynamo turn around thing in the corner? I still die a little inside everytime I go the wrong way and the foe drops out, getting me killed for it. Also suppose there is no way to make copter - dynamo work on both point/assist midscreen during happy birthdays? Or even argus bullets consistently hitting two characters at once instead of one dropping out seemingly randomly? Peacock already has a hard time corner carrying during happy birthdays, would just be nice if her argus was more reliable in those scenarios.