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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

zarkingphoton said:
Man, you're determined.
I really don't like the loss of old m shadow. It's literally turning me off from the character entirely, I don't even want to play her like this. The change threatens to throw out most of the work I have been putting into finally learning teams. I like the way I can play the game with m shadow at neutral, and it changes the way I can play Bella. I don't want to lose that.
Pickles said:
I would say if she gets this then it should still be the pre-change beta M shadow where they got knocked away, I always thought her getting a full combo off m shadow hitting from 3/4 screen was pretty dumb. I also dont play fukua so maybe no fukua players would want it this way but it seems like the simplest solution to what people want M shadow for.
What I would say about this is that the attempt at changing m shadow to knock them away felt super unfun. It just... did. Most of the time, if fukua is a full screen away and calling shadow you should never really be getting hit anyway, since it's a mid and all you have to do is block or airblock to land cancel it. It's meant to pressure, and only scores the hit if they get impatient. Losing every bit of the reward for your opponent getting impatient, aside from like 700 damage on a slow mid, feels bad.

That aside, I think with shadows scaling the followup and Fukua's lower damage, even if you get hit fullscreen now it shouldn't hurt that much, and Fukua will have to reset to make something worthwile happen.
 
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Knockback M Shadow is gdlk for peacock, tho.
 
Zidiane said:
if you get hit fullscreen now it shouldn't hurt that much, and Fukua will have to reset to make something worthwile happen.

this is skullgirls, its a game where you almost ALWAYS have to reset to get something worthwhile and fukua now has amazing resets with shadows. Fukua's setplay with L/H shadows scales her followup too, doesn't make it not scary.

When I was talking about it with Deer he was saying he basically just wanted something that acted as a "wall"; like you said, it's just meant to pressure. For that purpose, knocking away or towards you wouldn't matter much, and in fact if you're trying to stop an approach then I would think being knocked away might even be better?
 
@Mike_Z
About beowulf.

can chairless c.hp into Super, not be a frame trap. I am well aware that your reasoning is that he spends the meter to do. However, what is rather strange is that he can fully tuck away his arm so it looks like he's in recovery then he just airwulfs or arms out of no where. could the super cancel window on that particular normal be more strict?

Pickles said:
this is skullgirls, its a game where you almost ALWAYS have to reset to get something worthwhile and fukua now has amazing resets with shadows. Fukua's setplay with L/H shadows scales her followup too, doesn't make it not scary.

midscreen with assist and corner only. Most midscreen tiffs will not work for long. only one that's even yielded results was c.mp c.hp L shadow dash c.lk c.mp, j.lp L fireball+release the shadow.

I do not think they are particularly amazing by herself.
 
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Cadenza said:
could the super cancel window on that particular normal be more strict?
Normals don't have super cancel windows.

Does cHP have one?
That would be the only normal that has one to my knowledge.
 
Liam said:
Normals don't have super cancel windows.

Does cHP have one?
That would be the only normal that has one to my knowledge.
if it doesn't then can something be done about this perhaps? This is by far the only thing that keeps coming up to any new player and sometimes seasoned players whenever they get hit by this thing.
 
dekillsage said:
Her damage afaik is based on her starters, and her best starters are either from bomb teleport mix ups/grabs/assists. Not sure how she gets huge damage off of throw without spending a ton of resources, but whenever I start a combo off of a bomb or throw the damage isn't that ridiculous.
I would agree with this. I don't think throw xx lenny > argus is really worth it most of the time. I'd rather try to get a mixup off the hard knockdown and get the damage off that.

dekillsage said:
Well, yeah. But.... I mean.... *twiddles fingers* 159 man reversal'd me so good on defense.... almost every time.... was pretty cool.
I'd agree with this too. Pretty much the instant 159man's meter hits 2 he's going to look for a chance to super and DHC.
 
is it any worse than sweep wait updo?
 
gllt said:
is it any worse than sweep wait updo?
Sweep is not armored.
Sweep does not combo.
Filia does not have airwulf(this is negated by pushblocking the first hit of c.hp and waiting if memory serves).

Now to answer your question in the first place. it is not worse. its very very obnoxious that is deceiving as all hell.
 
Cadenza said:
Sweep is not armored.
Sweep does not combo.
Filia does not have airwulf(this is negated by pushblocking the first hit of c.hp and waiting if memory serves).

Now to answer your question in the first place. it is not worse. its very very obnoxious that is deceiving as all hell.

If you interact with cHP's armor, the frame trap part is not your main problem at that point.
Not comboing is a fine comparison, since you can choose to get hit by sweep to avoid a frame trap that is punishable if you just wait, I suppose.
Not having airwulf is a fair point.

Filia spends meter after the frame trap to get the conversion, rather than as the frame trap, but she still does an invuln move.

There's a lot of comparisons to be made, my real question is the one you answered. When I asked if it was any worse, I only care about the frame trap part.

"Now to answer your question in the first place. it is not worse. its very very obnoxious that is deceiving as all hell."

That's how I feel about sweep updo and I feel like it's my fault for getting hit by it. I feel the same about cHP arm. They can both spend another meter from the super to DHC and make it safe on the right teams.

I'm not shooting down your issue, I was definitely just asking why it bugs you. If it bugs you because it's deceptive, I think it being deceptive is fine, but I can understand it being -too- deceptive, so I'd like to see other opinions about it. But I don't think the frame trap super is a big deal. That really just seems like you got hit for not waiting for something you know you can wait out by learning the timing for it in training mode or blocking and calling assist or something as long as you know they can't make it safe for another meter.

edit: Barely anyone falls for beat extend wait SSJ because everyone learned to wait out the super cancel window. Does cHP arm feel dumber than that?
 
gllt said:
Barely anyone falls for beat extend wait SSJ because everyone learned to wait out the super cancel window. Does cHP arm feel dumber than that?
Its also big band and people have gotten ssj'd since he came out. people learned to respect him is what i would think. the same could be said for good ol beo, c.hp visually puts away his arm if he doesn't arm or anything then he's punishable, however when he puts his arm he is still able to do gigantic arm and that's visually that really messes with people.
 
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Pickles said:
this is skullgirls, its a game where you almost ALWAYS have to reset to get something worthwhile and fukua now has amazing resets with shadows. Fukua's setplay with L/H shadows scales her followup too, doesn't make it not scary.
She doesn't break 5k with meter on a full combo off of a shadow confirm (highest I got was 4.7k, maybe she can and I'm doing the wrong route), and max undizzy she gets around 3k off of shadow confirm into drill. It's kinda not scary.

I would think being knocked away might even be better?
So I can keep up my amazing fullscreen fireball zoning...? There's no real benefit to knocking them fullscreen for Fukua. I would take the confirm every time. And even if I don't get the confirm, I would rather get the chance to try to open my opponent up by dragging them in. Why would I want to harass them to the point where they make a mistake and get hit by fullscreen m shadow, and my only reward is a couple more seconds to throw non-threatening fireballs and shadows?

The only reason Fukua would want a knockaway m shadow is if she had a team built around it. Having a move that Fukua herself doesn't benefit from and instead needs specific teammates to make work seems silly to me.
 
gllt said:
edit: Barely anyone falls for beat extend wait SSJ because everyone learned to wait out the super cancel window. Does cHP arm feel dumber than that?
Yes, because cHP has an infinite super cancel window and Beat Extend does not.
If you are patient and wait for the correct frames you get a guaranteed punish on Beat Extend, but jabbing arm will always be a risk.

But you just block and hit the assist button and that deals with it.
I don't think it's a huge issue. I mean sure it scales the punish to 90%...
 
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All of cr.hp is super cancelable even the recovery just like every other normal. I remember getting baited into arm super quite a few times so I don't think its dumb...
 
Zidiane said:
She doesn't break 5k with meter on a full combo off of a shadow confirm (highest I got was 4.7k, maybe she can and I'm doing the wrong route), and max undizzy she gets around 3k off of shadow confirm into drill. It's kinda not scary.

pretty much every character in the game gets those numbers off of throw but I'm sure you aren't gonna argue that being thrown by someone like double who can go into setplay off of it isn't scary. Again, fukua setplay now pretty much always involves combos either starting with shadow or being hit by shadows early (for the 50/50) but having reduced damage doesn't make having to deal with all her ambiguous setups THAT much less of a threat in a game where you do a lot of resetting anyway.
 
Pickles said:
pretty much every character in the game gets those numbers off of throw
I may be misremembering, but I'm fairly certain I can get 7k off of normal ground throw midscreen with Bella and around 4-5k at max undizzy.

Why are we arguing about resets again? I was just saying m shadow confirms hurt less when we started.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk
 
Zidiane said:
I may be misremembering, but I'm fairly certain I can get 7k off of normal ground throw midscreen with Bella and around 4-5k at max undizzy.

Why are we arguing about resets again? I was just saying m shadow confirms hurt less when we started.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

that's wild if bella does that much but she is the bruiser type so it kinda makes sense, im just saying MOST chars get that damage off of throw

and the reason I brought up resets is because you said the reason old M shadow, if it came back in neutral as it was on retail, wouldn't be scary to be hit by because her followup combo (that she STILL GETS A FULL COMBO for landing a zoning projectile from 3/4 screen even if its "easy to block") is scaled. By that logic though, every confirm off of shadow shouldn't be scary because they all scale, and since fukua's setplay revolves around shadows then her setplay shouldn't be scary because they all scale. Obviously I don't agree with that.
 
Mike_Z said:
It's a frametrap, of course you'll get CH for pressing a non-invincible button if she attacks right away.
She can't repeat the pressure because she can't jump out of the dash (if grounded) and she already used up her airball (if airborne). Airball has very low priority and does pitiful damage per hit so trading with it if she uses it as an advancing move is pretty much impossible to be on the worse side of...if you pushblock the last hit of Airball she has three normals, counting ground and air and crouching, that will actually make contact after dashing, and the ones that do are immediately PBGC'd because you recover 2-3f after it touches you.
There's a 1f gap before fastest-possible s.LP, and 2+ before every other move. It's a good frametrap, but you can DP, armor, or assist clean because she has no options after that dash that allow her to block at all - to beat reversals she either has to guess DP if she landed or guess Gregor if she's airborne.

Yes, it gives her another pressure option. I thought it would be pretty broken, but in practice it seems not to be. There already exist other characters with longer pressure strings from Airball's start distance that leave them at better advantage with fewer holes. The best she can possibly do after that is mix you up.
Guess I'll post my findings in regards to airball dash cancel. The notoriously tricky one is MK airball. If you choose to not pushblock at any point, it can be pretty hard to punish depending on where you block it and can result in you taking a big hit for trying.
Pushblocking early puts you in practically the same situation as not pushblocking.

Pushblocking the last hit will prevent her from being able to crossup at all but turns into a mixup. If she tries to attack after the airdash, you can punish it pretty easily, but if she chooses to block as soon as she can after the airdash, filia didn't have anything fast enough to punish with outside of super.

Also worth pointing out that pretty much any super that hit high enough was a punish on the airball cancel 100% of the time on block.

I don't think it's necessarily broken because always pushblocking the last hit avoids any immediate mixup and mostly just lets her apply a bit more pressure.
 
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Cadenza said:
c.hp

Like eveyone has been saying, the only way to cancel chairless c.HP or c.HK is to use a super. If you know that it's possible, why can't you just block and see what he does next. Also c.HP only has 1 hit of armor after all, so if you press your buttons quickly you get a free counterhit punish. Other than a frame trap, what else does chairless Beo have? You get chipped by every attack and c.HK is the only way to get around. Your reversals can just be grabbed. Anything of Beo's can be grabbed, regardless of having chair on or off.
 
Rabbleflaggers said:
Like eveyone has been saying, the only way to cancel chairless c.HP or c.HK is to use a super. If you know that it's possible, why can't you just block and see what he does next. Also c.HP only has 1 hit of armor after all, so if you press your buttons quickly you get a free counterhit punish. Other than a frame trap, what else does chairless Beo have? You get chipped by every attack and c.HK is the only way to get around. Your reversals can just be grabbed. Anything of Beo's can be grabbed, regardless of having chair on or off.
Boi.
Let me copy and paste. I get tired of repeating something in different words.

c.hp visually puts away his arm if he doesn't arm or anything then he's punishable, however when he puts his arm away he is still able to do gigantic arm and that's visually that really messes with people.

cHP has an infinite super cancel window.

Anything of Beo's can be grabbed, regardless of having chair on or off.
hmm. you're a beo player and did not mention arm? you're making this quite the fun! we might as well experiment with arm being beaten by meaties!

Let me clarify. I am more concerned with the fact that he completely puts away his arm after c.hp and still arms.
 
So what you want is armor to be gone as he puts the arm away and the attacker to have little enough block stun to attack that no armor period? So the beo has less time to use arm before his armor runs out.
 
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Pickles said:
that's wild if bella does that much
I'll show you the combos later. I think I posted them all to the combo thread at some point.

and the reason I brought up resets is because you said the reason old M shadow, if it came back in neutral as it was on retail, wouldn't be scary to be hit by
I meant it's not as bad as it was before. It is unscaled in retail, so it really is a FULL combo for Fukua, which could easily lead to death from the confirm. Now, the kill percent is lower, so it's not as scary.

she STILL GETS A FULL COMBO for landing a zoning projectile from 3/4 screen even if its "easy to block"
Filia has drill confirms, Fortune has nom confirms, Bella has the situational deflector, parasoul has bike call, Eliza has sewer servant, big band has giant step which can confirm at certain ranges, Painwheel has nails, fly in, j.mp, squigly has mk spear and sing super. A lot of people can confirm from almost full screen like this. Pretty sure peacock has a bomb pattern that she can follow with teleport to confirm after. It's not just fukua. Fukua would probably have the lowest damage 3/4 screen confirm if retail scaled to 50%. I get more damage off of deflector, which scales to 25%.
 
Cadenza said:
Boi.
Let me clarify. I am more concerned with the fact that he completely puts away his arm after c.hp and still arms.

So you're concerned with the fact that after beo pocketing his arm he is able to take out his arm again. So because the arm is not currently in beowulf's arms its deceptive in that he can suddenly pull it out of nowhere and punch you with it. I don't get it. Why can't beowulf pocket and immediately take out his arm again? Is that counter-intuitive to pocket and unpocket something? I do that with my phone all the time ;). This seems far less deceptive than things like how Big Band can j.hk and still turn himself upright to use timpani to me.
 
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I see the chairless c.hp xx Arm like a turn around fake out punch. Putting away the arm only to spin and use the momentum to punch you with it to fake you out.
 
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does chairless crouch fierce have any recovery period where he can't arm?

Unrelated, but does the change to Peacock's M.Bang! mean it can't be low profiled by anything, or does it just lower the number of things that can low profile it?
 
So much talk of pocketing and unpocketing
are we sure we aren't talking about Villager strats in Smash Bros
:y
 
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If we are keeping new M. shadow for fukua, the hitbox still feels wonky. It's not grabbing consistently and I know "timing blah blah" but there is distances, weights and heights where it's almost feels impossible that it's going to grab.

Since zoning feels much harder, can we bring back the projectile rule of throwing another when first one is off screen/hits opponent rather than waiting for ball to return? I feel helpless when I'm zoning now.
 
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People are talking about changes and such as though new patch notes are out. I can't seem to find them if that's the case. Or maybe it's just my phone? Are the newest patch notes out?
 
Swiftfox-Dash said:
People are talking about changes and such as though new patch notes are out. I can't seem to find them if that's the case. Or maybe it's just my phone? Are the newest patch notes out?

You have to watch the latest footage from the game_realms twitch.
 
alexpi said:
does chairless crouch fierce have any recovery period where he can't arm?

No, it does not. Reminder that it only has 1 hit of armor. It can ONLY be canceled via super, too. Chairless c.Hk, though, can't be super-canceled after the 62nd frame, which is also when it stops being active. You can still hit his arm after the activity ends. But this is, perhaps, because it has 3 hits of armor.
 
@Liam
Chairless c.HK and Big Band's j.HK have supercancel windows.
Chairless c.HK can't be supercancelled because he falls on his face, Big Band's j.HK can't be supercancelled because he falls on his back. I look at them as moves the character is committing to entirely.

However, chairless c.HP is for that supercancel, that's like the entire point. It's Juggernaut's standing Fierce - it's a move you can throw out and watch after. He does it, and now you have to decide "Can I hit him twice?" and then even after it's not active anymore you have to decide "Is he gotta super me?" That's the whole point of it.

@PME @CaioLugon etc Fortune players
I came up with - Headbutt and Zoom have to be press+released within ~18f, if you hold HP longer than that it won't attack when you release it. That way you can move the head and everything without having to attack or requiring a counterintuitive motion for movement. (Assists work this way in MvC2.)
Thoughts?

@Zidiane
I get it, you played Fukua for a reason.
We're still experimenting, we can try a new one.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Fortune players
I came up with - Headbutt and Zoom have to be press+released within ~18f, if you hold HP longer than that it won't attack when you release it. That way you can move the head and everything without having to attack or requiring a counterintuitive motion for movement. (Assists work this way in MvC2.)
Thoughts?

Would this just be you hold HP for more than 18f or do you also have to be holding down? If the former, wouldn't this make doing ground string, M Cat Scratch, Zoom! in combos impossible since you have to hold HP during those combos (and probably some more combos)?
 
Sorry to have been a pest, Mike. Everyone seemed to have moved on or accepted new m shadow, just wanted to make sure I kept it in the discussion.
 
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Mike_Z said:
@Liam
Chairless c.HK and Big Band's j.HK have supercancel windows.
Yeah, can't super during techs but I guess I didn't count that as part of the normal since it's more of a universal mechanic.
 
I wouldn't mind if cHP arm has a couple of frames at the end where he cannot supercancel
He still has Airwulf as another option that is kind of safe so I think it's fair.

But seriously, if you get baited by {super arm after blocking cHP} more than three times, you're super unlucky.
That bait is extremely risky because the recovery/window for punishing is so long (ignore armor because armor is long gone by that point)
Unless you know exactly when the other guy's going to attack (or you have 5 frame reaction), it's a gamble.
So yeah...I would guess that either your punish timing was too consistent or you have the worst luck :(
 
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You can just block c.HP and whatever after. Just wait for him to try to do something. Even if he uses airwulf, who knows where his chair is. He could be using airwulf and increasing the distance between him and his chair. And no, airwulf is not safe. Most DPs and large supers, with a decent vertical hitbox, can easily punish airwulf, and is super easy to react to. The time you SHOULD worry about waiting is if he has 3 meter. But if you jump or just walk back, he just wasted 3 meter and is free to punish.
 
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