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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

alexpi said:
Hell, how many characters even have the option for a [meterless] knockdown? Eliza, squigly, band, and beo?
Valentine, Double, Ms Fortune (head-on and off) and Cerebella do as well and then Filia and Parasoul can but only via burst baits.
 
It sounds like requiring hype for those options is what he's paying for the rest of the options he's getting. It seems like an intentional nerf, but I don't play him so idk.
 
Zidiane said:
It sounds like requiring hype for those options is what he's paying for the rest of the options he's getting. It seems like an intentional nerf, but I don't play him so idk.
It does, but there's no reason to use regular press if you don't get hkd. Regular bulldog can pick up via assists, regular killer gets damage.

Also, unless they get significantly different combo routes (like one is for lights and one is for heavies), after about 5 months people are going to settle between hyped bulldog and hyped killer. Since grab finishers can't be used in neutral, the only ways to compare them are potential damage and potential setups. Currently, it works, since there's 3 varying levels of setup and damage among the 3 moves. However, the hype additions don't look like they'll give us 6 moves but rather 4 (killer, bulldog, hyped combo extender, hyped press).

I could see it working really well if we got one of each hype finisher instead of one total. I could also see more hype from pressing onto the chair (especially if press is getting a straight-up nerf like losing hkd). I could even see different effects like status effects, modifying undizzy, etc. working really well to differentiate what are now potentially 6 different ways to finish a grab. The current setup doesn't look promising, though.
 
Broken Loose said:
The current setup doesn't look promising, though.
I see what you mean. It is the start of the implementation, though. Robo and Fukua got additional adjustments to make them work right, so working with Mike to make sure it won't end up boring is the stage we're at now with Beo.

I'ma let ya'll do your thing with Beo, gonna go back to complaining about color palettes on news sites.
 
For what it's worth, most characters that get hard knockdowns don't get them off optimal combos, as said optimal combos often use OTG (eg BB and Double can't go for their max damage routes with midscreen j.HK and cilia slide pickup respectively). Val is probably the only exception to this maybe? I don't know of her optimal routes that use OTG though, midscreen I've only seen non OTG using routes. Para doesn't do much damage as it is so ending with Sniper oki is still fine in my books, plus she spends bar for it so there's a resource being used.

So most characters had to give up damage or some resource to get hard knockdown. Beowulf wasn't this. He could do however much damage he does, which was a freakish amount, and get hard knockdown every single time, which was incredibly strong for a character with the level of screen coverage that he has. So overall I think it's good at the very least my interest in the character that he now has to choose and spend resources of some kind to get hard knockdown. Having to choose between damage and hard knockdown might perhaps be too strong of a nerf of him though? It depends on how much damage the different enders and hype expense gives him.

Personally I am hype :^) for the changes and am interested to see what stuff he gets to do post rework.

I also think Broken Loose is giving chair dance too little credit, since you can use it set up knockdowns right outside the corner, and get corner crossups with assists that push the opponent back into the cormer so you get to do corner unga bunga stuff every single knockdown.
 
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Losing both free HKD sounds awful but I'm waiting to pass judgement to see how easily he can get hype.
 
Yomabuddy said:
For what it's worth, most characters that get hard knockdowns don't get them off optimal combos, as said optimal combos often use OTG (eg BB and Double can't go for their max damage routes with midscreen j.HK and cilia slide pickup respectively). Val is probably the only exception to this maybe?
Bella can. Eliza and Fukua can for a bar. I feel like Filia, Fortune, Parasoul, and maybe others can get optimal stuff into burst bait knockdown.
 
Yomabuddy said:
I also think Broken Loose is giving chair dance too little credit, since you can use it set up knockdowns right outside the corner, and get corner crossups with assists that push the opponent back into the cormer so you get to do corner unga bunga stuff every single knockdown.

still waiting for EX "hold the button down to make beo repeatedly kick the opponent in the face forever while draining hype at a constant rate" chair dance to hit the beta
 
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Yomabuddy said:
He could do however much damage he does, which was a freakish amount, and get hard knockdown every single time

Actually, canis major press in optimal combos did bad damage. With that you could only get at a max 6.9k. And that's the most optimal without meter Beowulf can get. The only way to really get "a freakish amount of damage" is with an assist and some meter (but meter barely helps unless you decide to DHC). You're exaggerating how much damage he gets with hard knockdown, but i'll admit that he can do a LOT of damage if he decides to do grendel killa.

Broken Loose said:
still waiting for EX "hold the button down to make beo repeatedly kick the opponent in the face forever while draining hype at a constant rate" chair dance to hit the beta

So excited smh
 
Rabbleflaggers said:
Actually, canis major press in optimal combos did bad damage. With that you could only get at a max 6.9k. And that's the most optimal without meter Beowulf can get. The only way to really get "a freakish amount of damage" is with an assist and some meter (but meter barely helps unless you decide to DHC). You're exaggerating how much damage he gets with hard knockdown, but i'll admit that he can do a LOT of damage if he decides to do grendel killa.

i mean idk about beo's metered damage, i know using meter at the end of combos doesn't always add a lot and i dont play beo so idk how much an early arm affects your later combo's optimization options, but 6.9k is a lot of damage for no bar lol. I think only big band gets more than that? though a couple chars get about that much, he's still definitely in the upper tiers as far as damage goes. and that's WITH a hard knockdown at the end, bb definitely cannot do 7k into sliding (i don't THINK anywhere, i KNOW he cannot get that midscreen but maybe 159man or someone has some wild stuff that can get 7k meterless hard kd in corner)

regarding the rest of beo changes, i also thought that he got an awful lot of damage for no bar into sliding knockdown (probably wouldn't say "freakish" but still a lot) and he is getting a lot of other cool stuff (everyone ignoring the fact that you dont take increased projectile chip while chairless anymore???) so I think the changes are certainly fair but of course we'll wait and see what actually hits the beta.
 
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Liam said:
All Fukua would have to do is release kick as soon as the opponent is close to her and it would force a trade in her favour.
The opponent would have to block and she would get pressure from that.

You can at least throw Mine / Bikes / Horus, but Fukua can do anything she wants for a long time and release as soon as you touch her on block or hit.
You can send out an assist to attack mine place / Horus / bikes but Fukua would be blocking the whole time. It's extremely different.

Do you think she needs that?

I think she's still incredible.
Do you think she's lower tier or not as good?

I know you thought she was low tier pre beta so I'm curious if you still think she isn't very good even now.

It would really be a huge buff.
For how easy it is for your opponent to get rid of shadows on the screen, I think SOMETHING has to be changed. You know from play how easy it is to take out my shadows. I've seen you accidentally jab my attacking shadow multiple times and not even trade and I just giggle at that.

Shadow holds are good for offensive reasons. I'll give it that. I think I have enough tricks and resets that when I get the initial hit, I can do stuff. But in neutral/defense, you know it's pretty damn useless. I can post vids of us playing. How easily shadows get beat in neutral is stupid. Just stay full screen when you see me hold shadow, it can't reach you. Throw beam, it goes away. Regardless of your character, I don't see how shadows will ever be good in neutral in it's current state.

I've watched other fukua players. No one is doing shadow hold stuff still. Maybe I watched the wrong players, maybe they just don't care for it. Some even dropped Fukua already (Dawn).

If there is some crazy Fukua players out there, please give me their steam names so I can watch/play them to learn something I'm missing.

And my tier list is:

Double
Filia
Eliza
Robo
Beo
Parasoul
Bella
Fukua
PW
Big Band
Fortune
Squigly
Valentine
Peacock
 
Zidiane said:
Bella can. Eliza and Fukua can for a bar. I feel like Filia, Fortune, Parasoul, and maybe others can get optimal stuff into burst bait knockdown.
I'll give you Bella, Eliza and Fukua (I did say "most" :^), but Filia's and Fortune's optimal stuff requires spending OTG (fiber loops do actually slightly less damage than the OTG spending route, I think Caio's thread in the Fortune forum has it), and burst bait knockdown while spending OTG is not real. Pretty sure Parasoul's optimal stuff spends OTG too. She can put Sniper at the end of it though so that's in the same realm as Eliza and Fukua.

Broken Loose said:
still waiting for EX "hold the button down to make beo repeatedly kick the opponent in the face forever while draining hype at a constant rate" chair dance to hit the beta
solid c- shitpost 6/10
 
MegamanDS said:
For how easy it is for your opponent to get rid of shadows on the screen, I think SOMETHING has to be changed. You know from play how easy it is to take out my shadows. I've seen you accidentally jab my attacking shadow multiple times and not even trade and I just giggle at that.

I've watched other fukua players. No one is doing shadow hold stuff still. Maybe I watched the wrong players, maybe they just don't care for it. Some even dropped Fukua already (Dawn).

If there is some crazy Fukua players out there, please give me their steam names so I can watch/play them to learn something I'm missing.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1zkhUuHQm6_f8bFnbQH2HhlE8gO8-ZKg

Watch the one with shademoneh. Hold shadow was used many times.

I don't see what is wrong with beating out shadows with jabs and NOT trading. The other opponent took the risk(or knows) to jab out. If the opponent was a few frames later, it very well could've traded or counter hit. Also what is the problem with shadows not being that amazing at neutral and or defense(not that I know if they are or not)? They are amazing in pressure and setups. You want shadows to be great at offense and defense. If shadows traded, then they always trade equal or in your favor since they cause knockdown. It sounds to me you want that kind of wall that shadows used to provide back.
 
MegamanDS said:
I wasn't trying to start a tier post. I was just simply replying your question when you asked where I think she stands as far as low-tier or not.
The post isn't for you. I'm at work so i can't respond
 
Yomabuddy said:
Filia's and Fortune's optimal stuff requires spending OTG (fiber loops do actually slightly less damage than the OTG spending route, I think Caio's thread in the Fortune forum has it), and burst bait knockdown while spending OTG is not real.
It's real for fortune. Since H gato does sliding knockdown you can't tech if it triggered undizzy even having used the otg before.
 
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Kyugetsuki said:
I don't see what is wrong with beating out shadows with jabs and NOT trading. The other opponent took the risk(or knows) to jab out. If the opponent was a few frames later, it very well could've traded or counter hit. Also what is the problem with shadows not being that amazing at neutral and or defense(not that I know if they are or not)? They are amazing in pressure and setups. You want shadows to be great at offense and defense. If shadows traded, then they always trade equal or in your favor since they cause knockdown. It sounds to me you want that kind of wall that shadows used to provide back.
I'm just trying to say that shadows in neutral/defense get beat or disappear too easily compared to other projects in the game. The initial thing that sparked this is that I was agreeing with someone that said they think shadows shouldn't disappear mid-attack if Fukua (not the shadow) blocks or gets hit. If it's pre-release of shadow, then fine (even though I don't like it). But post-release of shadow... it should finish up the move.
 
hey remember 2 kicks for dash beta experiment last year? can we maybe try that again c:?
 
CaioLugon said:
It's real for fortune. Since H gato does sliding knockdown you can't tech if it triggered undizzy even having used the otg before.
woah I learned something new today

I was thinking maybe it was with the j.HK, but damn that's wild.
 
Does anyone else feel like sekhmet needs some changes? It kinda feels like she's just there. She has no mixup and her damage output is not worth for the amount of meter you spend. I mean you could go for an airdash and go into sekhmet for another overhead but if it's blocked you get punished. You could go into sekhmet to bait someone's reversal but why not just block and get a heavy counter hit? Regardless I kinda really just have a problem with Sekhmet being useless at neutral. I figured A.B.A being one of her gameplay inspirations meant Eliza would have to balance being herself sometimes and being Sekhmet at others but there kinda isn't a point to do so. I mean she's faster than Eliza but for what? If I force you to block as sek, I just get grabbed or snapped. Having a taunt lets you frametrap with super but that alone doesn't make her useful. The only reason to ever go into sek is for combos. Was that the intent from the start?
 
With the right assists you can make certain sekhmet things safe. I love sekhmet with L tear shot assist.
I do wish sekhmet moves did more damage in combos because they're fun to do, but the damage isn't worth it like you said.
 
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The only problem I have with sekmet is how bare bones she is.:PUN:
No but really if she ever got specials, besides recall, that'd give her a better/good neutral. Not that she needs it. That sounds like something for SG2.
 
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CaioLugon said:
Since H gato does sliding knockdown you can't tech if it triggered undizzy even having used the otg before.
Maybe its cause my setups arent good but in my experience you can avoid the burst bait hard knockdown with h gato by bursting as soon as possible. Maybe I'm spacing tk gato wrong or it doesn't work as well vs big characters but I don't think its 100% real.

I don't understand wanting sekhmet to have better neutral, you're draining meter in that mode how much time do you plan on spending in neutral.
 
Fizzxwizz said:
Maybe its cause my setups arent good but in my experience you can avoid the burst bait hard knockdown with h gato by bursting as soon as possible. Maybe I'm spacing tk gato wrong or it doesn't work as well vs big characters but I don't think its 100% real.
What exactly do you mean with 'avoid'? I just tested it and it seems to work fine on everyone bursting on the first frame. Midscreen you can be too far to punish the burst if they do it at the right time though...
 
Also, 2 things.

First part of video, the laser hits the first projectile, but not the 2nd, but hits peacock too. So it seems to skip the middle hit box? Is it supposed to be like this?

Second part of the video is self-explanatory. This happens with double assist and some other "horizontal" assists. It's really annoying when I get the read but still get punished for it.

 
MegamanDS said:
Also, 2 things.

First part of video, the laser hits the first projectile, but not the 2nd, but hits peacock too. So it seems to skip the middle hit box? Is it supposed to be like this?

Second part of the video is self-explanatory. This happens with double assist and some other "horizontal" assists. It's really annoying when I get the read but still get punished for it.

Idk about the first part

as for the second part, can't you remedy that by doing HK drill first and then canceling into super?
 
RemiKz said:
Idk about the first part

as for the second part, can't you remedy that by doing HK drill first and then canceling into super?
If I do drill and don't super, it trades with val and I take full punish. If I do drill and cancel, same thing happens as vid.
 
That's... pretty cool tech for Peacock. I like it.
 
The new road roller thing for item drop seems weird on my end. At least from my viewpoint, the game screen freezes before the item drop even appears on screen, the opponent makes the "getting hit" grunt and then suddenly they're flat under the roller before it does the avery punching bit. My opponent (MMDS) didn't seem to notice it on his end, just thought i'd mention it. Also can someone remind me if the intros are supposed to be random? I only got the eye into for Peacock, figured it would be random normally and held buttons for specific ones.

Also I'm really noticing the damage nerfs on Peacock, I'm losing a lot of kills just by a bit of damage, letting people tag/dhc out and I can only really argus punish most of the time, it hurts. Especially with the item drop scaling, combos starting with that do nearly 2K less than they would in retail, that's a huge loss of damage. Also I really don't like this c.hk thing, I sometimes just hold the button for a split second without meaning to and it gets me killed.
 
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Only now got time to go back to the thread, plenty of things I wish I could reply to but... won't, so as to not start another argument about matchups and whatnot

So uhh

100% for spending Hype as Beo to still get HKDs, yes. I feel like s.LP builds Hype a little too fast though...
 
Man these Beo changes. I'm exited to play with it but it seems so late to reinvent an entire character like this. We'll just have to see. Not getting knockdowns for free is disheartening but i think once we get our hands on it we will realize just how easy gaining and spending Hype is and it won't even be a problem.

Tank said:
The only problem I have with sekmet is how bare bones she is.:PUN:
No but really if she ever got specials, besides recall, that'd give her a better/good neutral. Not that she needs it. That sounds like something for SG2.

Fricking this. I hate how she's not really a character 1/2 and more like a stance. I'd kill even just for a life-sucking command throw so she can be more like Valkenhyn's character and 1/2-ness, spend resource to lose power and gain speed and mixup. It's a shame such a potentially core mechanic is relegated to specific situations with her amazing buttons and helpers being in the forefront. I think with four voice actors they really spread her budget way too thin and that's why we got more of a stancy skeleton with limited animation. They definitely did the best with what they had though. Maybe Beo is a prelude to Eliza getting a "Hey use this mechanic!" rework, who knows.
 
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A bigger moveset for Sekhmet would require more animations. And I'm not really sure something with unlimited hyper armor needs to be so flexible, there has to be a catch.
 
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Let's not head back into "what if" for Eliza.

Because blood controlling mechanics. :T

You could also use sekh to eat a reversal if that's what the opponent is going to mash. That's what makes axe assist so incredible. She's a little bit like Leo in Guilty Gear where you get some nice mixups for the sake of being opened up, which is why you get the opponent knocked down first.
 
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Was Parasoul's damage buffed? I already looked at the notes and couldn't find anything except for:
  • Increase minimum scaled damage on Motor Brigade from ~500 to ~1000. (me)

I did the exact same combo in beta than in retail and the difference was bigger. In retail the combo does around 9.7k damage and in beta I was able to consistently get around 11.8k damage. I use Motor Brigade twice stage 5 of the combo so I would expect a bit more damage but 2k seems like something is hitting harder than usual. I'm already late to the party so I'm not sure if this was changed or discussed. I'm not complaining, in fact I like it.
 
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