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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

Mike_Z said:
It's really just for the style, so "it works and does some damage and isn't buggy in some way" is fine with me. :^) It's mostly that Lenny Argus Lv3 item does about as much as most Lv3s from other chars. :^P
Well darn, it's neat for sure but I was hoping this change would give Peacock's level 3 a reason to be used outside just being stylish. I mean there are the few DHC's that Peacock might not be able to Lenny → Argus reliably from so it helps there, but I can't think of any Peacock players that run into that problem with their teams.
I noticed that her level 3 as a DHC scales to 55% instead of the normal 70, take it as it would be too good at 70%? That would put it a few hundred above Double's level 3 which is actually a little crazy when you put it like that. Also fun note, while testing the numbers, I realized that in the corner; Peacock can't argus into Double's level 3, the beams mess it up lol.
 
So I haven't posted this in here in a while, but wondering if anyone else has a problem with this. Right now in SG, When I go from left to right the audio to the game gets from normal volume to low audio the closer I get to the right of the screen. I am testing on other games, but wondering if this is a bug or not. Going to do some testing with a fellow up posts about this. Also I can listen and watch videos and music perfectly fine and come in clearly.
 
I support making L/M clash mid. It would make my life better as a Big Band player.
Anything to make my opponent shut up about my character. It's why I'm a huge fan of the Double nerfs.
 
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gllt said:
I support making L/M clash mid. It would make my life better as a Big Band player.
Anything to make my opponent shut up about my character. It's why I'm a huge fan of the Double nerfs.
I need the shitposts in order to feed my pet fish. Please don't kick them in the stomach pls kthnx.

Non-shitpostingly, I don't mind this either. Parry can also stand to not be active forever.

I did have one query though. When I do H Brass+Hairball for corner combos a lot of characters have extremely narrow hitboxes for that hit state (when they fold in half after getting punched in the gut) compared to M Brass hit reaction (where they pretty much stand upright) which makes H Brass+Hairball conversions randomly drop on characters such as Double and Parasoul (and don't work pretty much at all on Valentine and Painwheel either). Is it possible to make those hitboxes slightly taller so that is more consistent?
 
I feel like parry window is pretty good right now. If a few frames were shaved off I guess it wouldn't be too bad. I know parrying multihits is easier than it was but I still think it can be a little difficult at times, especially when it parries the first hit really late into the parry window and you have to tap forward way faster than before. It was definitely noticeably easier (maybe too easy?) a month or so back when the window was increased more. I know the reversal window for parry was increased to 10f or something a while ago (I think?), but I don't see it in the google doc so I guess that was reverted? Would there be a happy medium that's less than ten but more than 3f? I know that one of my only real gripes about system wide mechanics for the game is the size of reversal window, but that's probably not going to change back to 4f

Is there any way for parries to negate charge? IDK how the rest of BB players feel, but sometimes I get parry xx rush punch/A train because I was holding back for too long from blocking when I just want jab or short.

Clash being mid is fine. Is there any way for jlk xx light clash combo more consistently? I know it combos but you have to cancel the jlk really tight for the hitstun to be enough to combo and a lot of times it just ends up not comboing.
 
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I also wouldn't care that much if only H Cymbal was an overhead. TK L Cymbal is kinda dumb in the corner anyways.

I don't think the parry window needs to be nerfed though. I feel like a lot of non-band players just assume that the parry window is way too easy simply because their shit is getting parried more often (since it's actually a reliable option now).
 
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Mike_Z said:
- Was disjoint j.LK really that useful in neutral, or is that more about the burst baits? I'm open to reverting j.LK, and reducing the size of the box on c.LK, though.
Personally, I'd rather keep the range instead of having a shorter disjointed hitbox.
 
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Mike_Z said:
updates
Not sure if you fixed it because I didn't see it in the patch notes, but did you fix Fukua's power grab to grab on last frame? I'm not good enough to test it on the 7th frame of a DHC or whatever magic you did to test it.
 
WarpedEcho said:
Is there any way for parries to negate charge? IDK how the rest of BB players feel, but sometimes I get parry xx rush punch/A train because I was holding back for too long from blocking when I just want jab or short.

I would honestly prefer the inverse- that charge would negate parries. I said this earlier but when I want to armor through a reset with brass sometimes parry comes out and the hitstop from it delays brass and gets it blocked. I don't think I've ever wanted to get parry > rush punch, what with m having 2 armor and medium/heavy a-train have 2/3 respectively.

On the topic of old beo changes that people aren't discussing anymore I feel like the change to wulfamania made it 100% more useful, but because of the changes with EX throws you ended up with a much shorter list of things you can do in succession and I kinda dislike that. To me it felt very "wrestling" the way that landing wulfamania with full hype meant you could do like six diving wulfdogs. Felt more true to the character than getting 3 headbutts and 3 grab finishers.
 
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Fizzxwizz said:
On the topic of old beo changes that people aren't discussing anymore

I agreed with that, Wulfamania is better if you haven't already built the hype (if you already had 3 hype it almost feels like a waste) but your options during wulfamania are really reduced and I don't even think I'll ever use the other EX grabs during it in its current form unless I know they'd dead and I'm styling because punchx4 ex grendel killa still feels like the best option by far even with reduced damage considering the damage still gets rescaled from the regrab of EX moves mid super even if you did the super raw.
 
worldjem said:
Personally, I'd rather keep the range instead of having a shorter disjointed hitbox.
Oh sorry, I don't want to change the hitboxes of anything at all. Being clearer: I'm open to reverting j.LK if someone can show me why it's necessary outside burst baits (which I'm fixing directly), and I'm open to reducing the vulnerable area on c.LK if someone can provide me a useful case that isn't just "it's really too good from max range".

clawmaster said:
It sounds the same here, just coming out my right speaker. You might want to check your speakers. :^P (Go to speaker setup and put the balance all the way to the right, see if you hear anything anywhere.)

Swiftfox-Dash said:
Well darn, it's neat for sure but I was hoping this change would give Peacock's level 3 a reason to be used outside just being stylish.
If you're comparing to Lenny/Argus it's more damage. If you're comparing to Lenny/Argus/Lv3 item, it forces a ground tech rather than a gold undizzy burst (and it's +25 or something if you have your OTG left) which can be better in some situations.
....I know!

And yeah, it's scaled extra because 6200 is a ridiculous amount of damage.

Fizzxwizz said:
To me it felt very "wrestling" the way that landing wulfamania with full hype meant you could do like six diving wulfdogs. Felt more true to the character than getting 3 headbutts and 3 grab finishers.
You got 3 and one that would end it, but I can pretty easily remove the limit on doing the same finisher strictly during Wulfamania until you let them go, would that help? It'd put it back to Retail with respect to what you can do in a row visually.

WarpedEcho said:
Is there any way for parries to negate charge?
Ooooh boy, trust me this is not how you want this to work. I can make it like Parasoul's dash, so if you do B+button you never get a charge move, though. Maybe.
Fizzxwizz said:
I would honestly prefer the inverse- that charge would negate parries.
This is equally bad, because then you can't parry after blocking, etc. Any time it chooses for you it'll choose the wrong thing in some cases.

Icky said:
I gotta say that by far the current beta is the best the game has ever felt
As long as people enjoy it, that's the whole point!
I was going to quote a different part of your post. :^P
 
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Mike_Z said:
I can pretty easily remove the limit on doing the same finisher strictly during Wulfamania until you let them go, would that help?
I certainly like this idea.
 
I was worried about the burst baits not being able to work, but if you can get them to work still, then I guess I'll be fine with the changes.
 
Mike_Z said:
@ Double (wow, Double is a user here)
- I'll fix the burst baits, even if I have to do "use the old boxes if they burst". :^P

Do any other attacks work like this when they trigger burst? I feel like some characters probably lost burst baits down the line (I know peacock sure did with the j.LP change) when vulnerable boxes were adjusted. Just seems a little odd to give it special treatment in this case; although I'm pretty sure the nerf wasn't intended to remove the burst baits.

Aside from that, I have yet to try double out in matches with the changes so I don't have an opinion on the changes themselves yet.
 
Mike_Z said:
@ Double (wow, Double is a user here)
- I'll fix the burst baits, even if I have to do "use the old boxes if they burst". :^P
- Was disjoint j.LK really that useful in neutral, or is that more about the burst baits? I'm open to reverting j.LK, and reducing the size of the box on c.LK, though.

Yeah, it was really useful. She didn't really have a lot of means of holding space outside of that, jHK, luger, or committing a read or resources to an invuln/super. Parasoul for example will be much harder to keep honest on ground approaches.

jLK is really nice too, for mixing up aerial approaches and for holding airspace. jHP lost enough to Para jLP and other good jLights that I trust it far less, and most people are used to all of its fastfalls, angles, etc. that it kind of became very blunt as a tool.

I don't mind her losing those burst baits at all. I think she had more than enough players use Undizzy max > 7jLK jHP > whatever as an ender that it just became a rote thing that people did as a safe-ish check. There's no real downsides to it and no real "bait" to it anymore, just a means of creating tension for what came next with free dmg attached or saving meter if they were in kill range and couldn't AC > punish with their team structure.

Maybe put more vacuum on jLK so they're pulled in closer for safe bursts faster/earlier? Not too sure what can be done about cLK without shortening boxes.
 
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hilaryyy said:
She didn't really have a lot of means of holding space outside of that, jHK, luger, or committing a read or resources to an invuln/super.

I think you're missing cr.hp and s.hp. I'd also argue that's a fair amount of tools to hold space with(including the ones I mentioned).

Edit:
Wait...we're talking about j.lk? Forget what I said. It's late. I'm confusing myself. I'll see myself out.
 
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Max Undizzy hits scaled to an extra 50%? So, if that's 100%, do they deal no damage now? Or 1? I still kind of want to see some of the combos this is supposed to fix btw.
 
Cheesedragon said:
Max Undizzy hits scaled to an extra 50%? So, if that's 100%, do they deal no damage now? Or 1? I still kind of want to see some of the combos this is supposed to fix btw.
No it means the damage they would deal is reduced by 50% more which can go below the minimums normally set by scaling.
A normal move that doesn't do at least 1000 damage has a minimum damage multiplier of .2 but if you hit them after burst that would be scaled again to a .1 multiplier. So at max scaling a move might do 50 damage but if you hit them after undizzy is full to burst it would only do 25.

Alternatively a move that does at least 1000 damage has a minimum multiplier of .275 but if you hit someone with a 1k damage move at max undizzy that multiplier would be scaled by 50% again and then have a multiplier of .138

edit: Combos this is supposed to fix are combos for example that end in doubles monster with a s.hp + luger or something similar where they are just tacking on extra damage to the end for that extra damage to kill which isn't normally supposed to be a part of the combo. Bella can do the same thing with titan knuckle if OTG was preserved where Titan knuckle at max scaling normally deals 440 damage but now would only deal 220 damage which might not seem like a big difference but that 220 damage less might be enough to save a player who at that point wouldn't have survived and then give them the option to burst (Or potentially get burst baited) to save their character.
 
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@RemiKz
No other character has things like that, no.

I mean I'm assuming that people realize you can still do the same thing with jump back j.LK->j.HK, or jump back j.HP->j.HK, and are complaining because it's something they really want her to have....? Maybe I shouldn't assume that. I'm still okay reverting or slightly improving j.LK though, because you can't just jump around with it forever, and that way she'd have jump back j.LK->j.HP->j.HK.

Double does a lot of damage, has j.HP reset loop, has H Luger antiair confirms, has car and catheads and monster etc. I WANT her to be worse air-to-ground and air-to-air (and in non-invincible vesions of Bomber) because I'd like her to think a little bit more.

Cheesedragon said:
Max Undizzy hits scaled to an extra 50%? So, if that's 100%, do they deal no damage now? Or 1? I still kind of want to see some of the combos this is supposed to fix btw.
Scaled by 50% means 1/2 their scaled damage, I assume you were being funny. :^P

You want to know what it's supposed to fix? Well, this change made enough of a difference that I've received some pretty harsh complaints.
Max scaled Peacock Lv3 SoID does 577, max-scaled Titan Knuckle does 440, max scaled H Brass does 481, Filia s.HK does 275, etc. So this change removes ~150-250 damage from all the really optimized combos of the form "do everything then tack on one more huge hit that'll trigger undizzy, to kill"...which in most cases results in them not killing anymore, and since those hits generally aren't burst baits it gives your opponent who survived a safe undizzy burst (into alpha counter if they want). It means you have to touch them at least one more time to kill them, which means more neutral instead of a guaranteed win.
 
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For some reason if I do non-ex Canis Major on Squigly she is pushed far enough away that if I do c.lk on her wake up it whiffs completely. It only happens on Squigly so I don't think it's intentional. Not sure if you could just make her slightly closer so that it doesn't whiff? Or is that just another consequence of squigly having squigly boxes?
It's like 8 pixels away from hitting her.
 
Beta Changes said:
*NEW* Shadow of Impending Doom scales followups to 77.5% (scales by 22.5%), except if it is Tenrai Ha. Her 50/50s with Lv2 items are extremely good, and it doesn’t affect her starters that aren’t directly “drop an item” much at all.

(BrandX translated)
 
Real quick on Band: I'm an outlier and actually only found to be his new L Giant Step to be the thing I don't like; my reflexes are poor and reacting to the low that precedes it is harder than some give it credit for.

I actually think cymbal clash should still hit high; I never thought that was problematic.
 
Cymbal clash hitting high or mid doesn't mean much to me either way, it's fairly slow and any range where you'd be using it safely the other person has little reason to be blocking low anyway.
 
My only real issue with BB is "body blocking" punishes, especially on teams where you have a tiny character 4chan, squigly, crouching stuff, and they throw out a normal or some stupid special with BB assist. Both totally whiff and I go to punish and then I don't actually hit the point character and I get blown up. I'm not sure if it's fixable in any sense but that's just something that gets me a little upset about him. TK cymbals were dumb but more meh, L giant step is not really an issue to me now because unblockable stuff is better (cremation + giant step was straight dumb, now it's less dumb), Step as an assist is kinda dumb but w/e. One thing about the giant's step, though: is it supposed to anti-air? cause there will be times where I get above BB to avoid it or try to punish him for going for it and I still trade with it Via Bella/Para/Squigs/others. Someone had a vid where it happened but I don't have access to my PC atm (;-;). I'm fine if that's the intended behavior it's just a little silly if it's not, especially since he has Armored anti-air grabs, Rush punch (which because of the armor is actually a decent anti-air although not the best immediate option), DP, and 1000 anti-airs buttons (exaggeration), parry into things etc.

In terms of cymbals could M be made an overhead but not H, if this is going to change? That way H breaks armor and stuff but is slow comparatively, M is an overhead, and L is a fast big hitbox. Instead of, H is an overhead and breaks armor, M is meh??? more damaging slower L version maybe (don't know the exact specs), and L is fast.

This all being said the game overall (haven't played the latest patch just a general observation) feels generally more fun to play. It feels like everyone is coming more toward the center in terms of balance. It feels like the characters overall have to think more which I like.
 
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Masqman said:
L giant step is not really an issue to me now because unblockable stuff is better (cremation + giant step was straight dumb, now it's less dumb)
I'm pretty sure the latest unblockable protection didn't affect this because the unblockable protection already in the game already addressed this. Unless the opponent was using L George + this setup then it didn't get any easier (or harder) to block this I don't think.
 
Mike_Z said:
Parasoul Lv3 tear was for all the things I found that beat Lv3 that aren't supers, after looking at it. :^) Gregor is a bonus.

That's fine and makes sense to me, but still....Peacock MP Bang, Parasoul Napalm Pillar, and Beowulf H Chair toss all still beat out level 3 clean, and Fortune Headroll still trades (which staggers parasoul too), which are non-metered options here I listed. So it just seems to me like it didn't work. Idk how it is you're doing it, but they beat it clean everytime still for me and other players I asked to test it here in this build with the tear.

If you meant things like the low profiling thing Alexpi mentioned, I've never really seen that before myself, so if you meant to fix those kind of options, I understand. If you meant that those non-metered options are fine with you, then that's slightly deflating to hear but at least I can understand that too.
 
Lex said:
I'm pretty sure the latest unblockable protection didn't affect this because the unblockable protection already in the game already addressed this. Unless the opponent was using L George + this setup then it didn't get any easier (or harder) to block this I don't think.
The issue was that in retail the mid hits on Cremation were canceling out UB protection (So H>L near each other was fine but L>M>H was dumb, especially considering that first you had to guess H or low), so it's not unblockable per se but seeing as this could be done off any normal essentially (and you couldn't see squigly come onto the screen in some cases). That being said it's less dumb that it was but it was stupid. The change in the way Mid hits and blockstop affected the Unblockable protection is what I was talking about not really HL or LH which as you pointed out was already not in play >6f.

[Edit] IF you were talking about 1 UB protection in beta change versus latest one then yeah, I was comparing it to retail/before any changes.
 
AlcoholicRobot said:
Cymbal clash hitting high or mid doesn't mean much to me either way, it's fairly slow and any range where you'd be using it safely the other person has little reason to be blocking low anyway.

To be fair, this is a good argument towards Cymbals staying an overhead at all versions. Not saying it should, but the opponent does have at least 24 frames(?) to react to the Light version.
 
Fuego said:
I don't believe L Step has been changed?
Wasn't it sped up? I'm on a phone at work and can't check; giant step has felt way more dominant in beta.
 
Masqman said:
The issue was that in retail the mid hits on Cremation were canceling out UB protection (So H>L near each other was fine but L>M>H was dumb, especially considering that first you had to guess H or low), so it's not unblockable per se but seeing as this could be done off any normal essentially (and you couldn't see squigly come onto the screen in some cases). That being said it's less dumb that it was but it was stupid. The change in the way Mid hits and blockstop affected the Unblockable protection is what I was talking about not really HL or LH which as you pointed out was already not in play >6f.
I know how the previous unblockables worked, but cremation isn't like Painwheel's j.HK where the hits are fast enough to invalidate retail unblockable protection I'm pretty sure. The next hit of cremation that is a mid doesn't happen before blockstun/hitstop/whatever it's called ends. Hence it hasn't been affected by the beta.

BlueFeena said:
Wasn't it sped up? I'm on a phone at work and can't check; giant step has felt way more dominant in beta.
H Giant step was sped up by 2 frames and M by 1 frame, L hasn't changed (H also was given armour at one point but that was reverted it also recovers faster but is just as - on block).
 
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Mike_Z said:
Parasoul Lv3 tear was for all the things I found that beat Lv3 that aren't supers, after looking at it. :^) Gregor is a bonus.
I'm sorry, but I feel like you're encouraging not thinking with this. If you did a lvl 3 and didn't consider that "Hey this character can low profile this. Maybe just doing it in neutral or up close without making them block first is a bad idea?" Then maybe you should get blown up, because you didn't THINK! As a Filia player the mu is already staggering. IMO parasoul doesn't need this...extra defense. (this is mostly in regards to gregor. If this is the only way to solve this for all the other things that beat lvl 3 that aren't supers then fine.)
 
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I know sage always talks about the blockstun on m beat extend being a lot. There was a change to assist blockstun on updo and pillar a while ago. Can extend get the same treatment?
 
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How about try making squigly's qcf+hk hit low the first hit basically like the seria version...
So it would become Tremolow. :PUN:
just ignore me don't ban me yet.
 
I have one more thing I feel like asking for in this thread. Is there any way that preblock (or whatever it is) after blocking certain supers get removed? During these specific supers, you can't unback even well after the blockstun ends. Fortune's cat scratch super, BB's SSJ, Filia's/Eliza's/Double's level 3, and all of Val's ground supers (didn't check air) do this. I might have missed one or two.
 
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WarpedEcho said:
I know sage always talks about the blockstun on m beat extend being a lot. There was a change to assist blockstun on updo and pillar a while ago. Can extend get the same treatment?

But Mike doesn't play Updo or Pillar. :^)

Actual response: M Beat is pretty bad as an anti air, unlike most of the other commonly used DP assists; having a considerable amount of blockstun seems fine imo.
 
Cymbals should be an overhead for all versions, IMO. If you can't block a 23f overhead at the fastest possible time with the fastest version, then maybe that's your fault.

EDIT: After reading Lex's points, I can't help but agree with pretty much all of them. So uhhh disregard what I said
 
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