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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

It isn't like cymbals needs to be an overhead, it has a lot going for it even without being an overhead and mixups or situations where it being an overhead is important aren't really the purpose of it. The move is huge, (very) disjointed, the H version breaks armour, it is difficult to punish once blocked as well as to get around and it is one of the only air specials in the game that is also an overhead. The only other air specials that are overheads are Double's items, Eliza's Sekhmet attacks and Squigly's H Dive kick. All of those moves are either highly punishable on block or whiff or require meter while Cymbal clash doesn't really have either of those downsides.

Stopping it from being an overhead isn't going to be huge either way, but it doesn't really make much sense for it to be an overhead. Saying "oh but it is a slow overhead and therefore there's no point making it hit mid" kinda misses the point.
 
I have been saying since day 1 that Cymbal Crash should not be overhead.

Lex said pretty much what I would have wanted to say on the matter.
 
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reasons

To play Devil's advocate for a bit, those characters also get a lot of things that Big Band doesn't (and vice versa). Squigly has stancels, Eliza has Sekhmet, etc. Again, I'm not saying that he needs the overhead properties on the L and M versions, or that the abilities that other characters get make it justified, but there is a reason that a lot of people (Mike included) dislike comparison when deciding whether or not something needs to be changed.
 
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I'm sorry, but I feel like you're encouraging not thinking with this. If you did a lvl 3 and didn't consider that "Hey this character can low profile this. Maybe just doing it in neutral or up close without making them block first is a bad idea?" Then maybe you should get blown up, because you didn't THINK! As a Filia player the mu is already staggering. IMO parasoul doesn't need this...extra defense. (this is mostly in regards to gregor. If this is the only way to solve this for all the other things that beat lvl 3 that aren't supers then fine.)
That's only at point blank range. You can still do it from full screen I think
 
A good video!
(BrandX translated)
s.MK -> c.HK~wait~214MP = crossup.
s.MK -> c.HK~early 214LP = not crossup.
This is a 50/50 that you can combo after, so Lv1 items stay scaled. (There is no difference between L/M/H Lv1 items, it's all or none.)

In the corner, LP+LK ~ 214HP, wait, Lv3 item + c.MK is a 50/50 because Lv3 item is overhead, so 214HP Lv3 stays scaled. You can even make it completely safe with LP+LK -> 214HP, 236+LK, c.MK.
Sorry.

For some reason if I do non-ex Canis Major on Squigly she is pushed far enough away that if I do c.lk on her wake up it whiffs completely. It only happens on Squigly so I don't think it's intentional. Not sure if you could just make her slightly closer so that it doesn't whiff? Or is that just another consequence of squigly having squigly boxes?
It's like 8 pixels away from hitting her.
It's Squigly, but it's also not the purpose of the move. I'll look at this, because I'm also going to make Wulf Shoot lose to Daisy if done post-flash. :^P

If you meant that those non-metered options are fine with you, then that's slightly deflating to hear but at least I can understand that too.
As we already discussed in PMs, her Lv3 does an amazing number of things unique to it, so it's not ALSO going to be postflash-unblockable.
Putting the tear in fixed several meterless counters that weren't in your list, such as normal-startup-delay-cancel-to-special to dodge the first few bullets and punish with much better conversion options (Double c.MK~L bomber, for example, with optional Monster followup for a full combo, or Squigly c.LK + assist) but since I only even found those things by examining it after you complained the first time, if you don't think it did anything I'm happy to go make it worse again. Consider it done! And consider maybe doing more research before you complain about something - which was done specifically to address your previous complaint - not having helped.
I'm sorry, but I feel like you're encouraging not thinking with this. If you did a lvl 3 and didn't consider that "Hey this character can low profile this. Maybe just doing it in neutral or up close without making them block first is a bad idea?"
I agree with your latter statement. Fenster already argued that it should have full hitstop like Arm. The way I had it, to try to be nice, fixes some much more powerful options that I guess people hadn't found yet. Filia can still do H DP~Gregor anyway. But hey it's getting reverted!

The next hit of cremation that is a mid doesn't happen before blockstun/hitstop/whatever it's called ends.
It does, because the hitstop from Cremation is 13f and the next hit is 8f later, so the old unblockable protection was losing 5f off it.

My only real issue with BB is "body blocking" punishes, especially on teams where you have a tiny character 4chan, squigly, crouching stuff, and they throw out a normal or some stupid special with BB assist. Both totally whiff and I go to punish and then I don't actually hit the point character and I get blown up. I'm not sure if it's fixable in any sense
It's fixable in a very real sense, by you either doing a normal with longer range or dashing forward before hitting the button. Or realizing that this might happen, and doing something else to keep pressure instead of not protecting yourself.

I know sage always talks about the blockstun on m beat extend being a lot. There was a change to assist blockstun on updo and pillar a while ago. Can extend get the same treatment?
Pillar and Updo assist blockstun was lowered in April 2014.
Beat Extend blockstun, everywhere, was lowered in November 2014. :^P

If you crouch Beat Extend, the last hit doesn't touch any character except Big Band. In that case, M Beat hitstop+blockstun is 4f longer than assist Updo/Pillar hitstop+blockstun or L Beat blockstun. I don't mind removing those 4f as an assist on both hits, but I'm not gonna reduce it by like the 14f it'd require when you're standing up.

I have one more thing I feel like asking for in this thread. Is there any way that preblock (or whatever it is) after blocking certain supers get removed? During these specific supers, you can't unback even well after the blockstun ends. Fortune's cat scratch super, BB's SSJ, Filia's/Eliza's/Double's level 3, and all of Val's ground supers (didn't check air) do this. I might have missed one or two.
It's doable, but actually pretty hard. Gimmie your reasoning.

To play Devil's advocate for a bit, those characters also get a lot of things that Big Band doesn't (and vice versa). Squigly has stancels, Eliza has Sekhmet, etc. Again, I'm not saying that he needs the overhead properties on the L and M versions, or that the abilities that other characters get make it justified, but there is a reason that a lot of people (Mike included) dislike comparison when deciding whether or not something needs to be changed.
In this case I think the comparison is fine, because it wasn't "Filia has a move that does X, so Painwheel should also have a move that does X," that is, arguing about character differences. Instead, it was comparing a class of moves across the game and saying, "These other moves that are overheads have these different downsides, but Cymbals doesn't have any of them", which is true. So it shouldn't be overhead.

It's disjoint as hell: I think it needs this, because if it wasn't he'd just get DP'd from anywhere. (Items and divekick are not disjoint and are close-range only, Sekhmet is armored.)
It's impossible to punish: L Cymbals is -1, M is +1 and H is +3. This is on purpose because of the startup being long; having it be long startup and punishable just means it's a bad move. :^P Note that "impossible to punish" doesn't mean "leaves him at advantage", the opponent can totally move in on him freely while he's falling. (Items are punishable unless you do Fridge->Monster, Sekhmet is hard-but-punishable, divekick is punishable.)
It's difficult to get around: It's a giant move, there's not much that can be changed about this. (Items and divekick don't control space, Sekhmet is armored but doesn't really control much space per se.)
It's an overhead: So, given the other pluses of the move and the relative downsides of other similar moves, I don't think it also needs this.

--

Now...
But Mike doesn't play Updo or Pillar. :^)
Five or ten years later, coming back and pointing to this post as a bad idea will still be a valid thing to do. This is the straw that broke the camel's back, right here.
"But it's just a joke!"
I'm human, and I'm sick and tired of this crap, which I get every day in private and public messages on Skullheart, Twitter, Shoryuken, Eventhubs, etc. I don't think it's too much to ask for respect, especially from the very people I'm doing all of this for.

I go to great lengths to be fair, and I have asked for only constructive posts in this thread because Skullgirls is NOT MY JOB ANYMORE so wading through piles of junk to find actual useful posts is a much bigger waste of time now. This Beta revision alone represents over fifteen hundred hours of work, months of unpaid evenings and nights and weekends spent attempting to be as fair as possible so that this game can be what the people who play it truly deserve, so it can still be considered at least somewhat good in a decade. Every decision is considered from every angle, judged, and judged again, before being tried and iterated on with public testing and public feedback - that I read all of - before becoming fully accepted. I spend days agonizing over things most people would consider inconsequential - hours of hitbox sizes, hitstun length, what does this change mean for the entire cast. I've put my soul into this game. All this despite, to this day, being told my factual analysis of other fighting games is invalid because I worked on this game that's [deep breath] just for furries and queers and is a hentai game and sexist and yet we somehow caved to SJW pressure by removing panty shots so we both should and shouldn't have done that and it has never been and will never be good enough for serious play or Evo or anything except to masturbate to and I'm just butthurt that it sold poorly* because it had nothing original in it.

I put myself hella out there on this project, and I asked for some very basic civility on a forum dedicated to the game, in a thread whose purpose is to make the game the best it can be by allowing any player to talk directly to the developer. Other communities wish they had this opportunity. AND YET, this kind of thing persists.

So yeah, it's just a joke? Nope. It's a sign of disrespect and an accusation of bias that, however slight, didn't need to be made, and it's indicative of the attitude I've gotten for a long while now.

I had that whole response written already, which took over an hour, so I still posted it.

I know what I want to do for the rest of this Beta, which was supposed to have ended a week ago, and I'm going to do that. If you had something else relevant to say, well, go ahead and be mad at every person who shitposted in the SINGLE thread I still had to read on here.

[edit]
I don't need or want apologies, especially from people who didn't cause problems! I know lots of people appreciate what I'm doing, and I still care very much about the game. If you want to do something that'd help me, get the people who are causing problems to stop.

* It didn't, not by a long shot. You can see on Steamspy that it sold over 833k on PC alone.
 
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Thank you Mike. The debt of gratitude we owe is too great to comprehend. There probably has never been or will never be a developer and person as good as you are. The amount of dedication and patience you've shown us over the years is super human so again thank you.
 
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That's only at point blank range. You can still do it from full screen I think

If Filia did gregor from actually fullscreen, then you could RC to block. There is a sweet spot far distance that is too far to get hit from the (removed?) tear, and too close so that Parasoul can't RC without getting punished at least. However, it seems like it's getting reverted anyways so it's moot.
 
It's doable, but actually pretty hard. Gimmie your reasoning.
It makes optimal punishes hard in some instances. With Bella at least, jump back j.hp is the safest way to ensure the optimal Kanchou starter with HCH start (jump forward will miss often). You can neutral jump, but it isn't super consistent when it will hit from my experience, and I'll occasionally hit upback by mistake and get s.hp (which is my fault, but feels super bad when it happens). I'm sure some other characters could have an easier time punishing without the preblock, but idk who. I didn't think it'd be that difficult to fix, feel free to ignore if it isn't worth.

I'm human, and I'm sick and tired of this crap, which I get every day in private and public messages on Skullheart, Twitter, Shoryuken, Eventhubs, etc. I don't think it's too much to ask for respect, especially from the very people I'm doing all of this for.
I feel like I've heard you say this like three times on this forum alone. I don't feel good about the fact that you have to say it, or say it as often as you do. Even when I personally get frustrated with the changes, I do know you are doing your best. Even stuff I don't agree with or can't see the purpose in, or feel like doesn't need to happen, I know you're doing what's best for the game. I appreciate your efforts.
 
You got 3 and one that would end it, but I can pretty easily remove the limit on doing the same finisher strictly during Wulfamania until you let them go, would that help? It'd put it back to Retail with respect to what you can do in a row visually.
Please do this, Slammania was one of the best things of Beo, one of the funniest things I've ever seen in a fighting game.
 
but since I only even found those things by examining it after you complained the first time, if you don't think it did anything I'm happy to go make it worse again. Consider it done!

Huh, really ?
 
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The way Fortune head controls are implemented in the current build is perfect in my opinion.
 
Hey Mike, I know you responded to this saying it's an easy fix, but I'm not sure you fixed it yet since it wasn't on the list of changes and I don't know how to test it in beta to check for myself. Sorry >.<


And these 2 things also:
The first being just a simple question of "Is beam supposed to hit object 1, skip object 2, hit object 3 (character)?" The 3rd beam actually is skip object 1, hit object 2, hit object 3.

The second is BFF being punished for me reading the opponent and punishing their super. This happens with multiple horizontal assists like double as well.

 
Could double's level 5 get better recovery to pick up otg?

I am also confused on why i should use level 5 for double? i asked multiple players and received no real answer.

Edit: I believe what is bugging me is that double's bombs going away instantly regardless instead of going away only if she gets hit

Double Edit: figured out where to use double level 5. nvm
 
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The first being just a simple question of "Is beam supposed to hit object 1, skip object 2, hit object 3 (character)?" The 3rd beam actually is skip object 1, hit object 2, hit object 3.
It looks like the way that beam works is that it has one projectile's worth of hits, then also hits everyone in it's path. It can only hit one projectile, and then it'll hit any character on the screen. If you do Fukua fireball super and hit it with m beam, you'll hit Fukua and be hit for 3 hits when fireball does 4 usually. The reason it's hitting one bomb and not the other in your example is probably because of the way that the game handles simultaneous hits; I know that if two Pummel Horse hit on the same frame the game will randomly decide who wins, so it's probably the same deal here.

The second is BFF being punished for me reading the opponent and punishing their super. This happens with multiple horizontal assists like double as well.
I think I said it last time you brought this up, but I like that Peacock can do this. Especially since reacting to Argus isn't really reading it; I don't feel like I outsmart a Peacock who does raw argus and gets blown up by BFF/BB's lvl 3/Deflector/any number of things. Especially considering that calling an assist at the same time as you do a non-invincible super is SUPER risky, it doesn't seem that bad. In the case you mentioned, you can just block and BFF after, or PBGC BFF if you want, especially since you are reaction supering.



Side note, is Fukua's armor grab supposed to just cancel into lvl 3? She can't cancel into her other supers? I thought the change a bit ago was to make it so you could super cancel out of armor grab after taking a hit. Why just lvl 3?
 
It looks like the way that beam works is that it has one projectile's worth of hits, then also hits everyone in it's path. It can only hit one projectile, and then it'll hit any character on the screen. If you do Fukua fireball super and hit it with m beam, you'll hit Fukua and be hit for 3 hits when fireball does 4 usually. The reason it's hitting one bomb and not the other in your example is probably because of the way that the game handles simultaneous hits; I know that if two Pummel Horse hit on the same frame the game will randomly decide who wins, so it's probably the same deal here.
That makes sense. I just didn't get how it worked since it seems to be hitting the ground stuff in a random order.

I think I said it last time you brought this up, but I like that Peacock can do this. Especially since reacting to Argus isn't really reading it; I don't feel like I outsmart a Peacock who does raw argus and gets blown up by BFF/BB's lvl 3/Deflector/any number of things. Especially considering that calling an assist at the same time as you do a non-invincible super is SUPER risky, it doesn't seem that bad. In the case you mentioned, you can just block and BFF after, or PBGC BFF if you want, especially since you are reaction supering.
I don't mean "read" as in predicted, that was my fault for phrasing it that way. I meant on reaction. But it's difficult to see the assist sometimes, especially if they call it almost simultaneously and you don't see val or whoever jump out until after screen flash. I dunno, it's just frustrating. It's a coinflip and I'll be content with whatever is decided. I just wanted to show Mike just in case he wanted Fukua to not move during that super.

Side note, is Fukua's armor grab supposed to just cancel into lvl 3? She can't cancel into her other supers? I thought the change a bit ago was to make it so you could super cancel out of armor grab after taking a hit. Why just lvl 3?
Right now, you can cancel to lvl 3 or 5 after getting touched during armor. It used to be level 1 also. I WISH he would bring that back. Maybe after all these changes the past year, he might since Fukua has taken a lot of beatings since this was removed almost back during her initial launch.
 
Right now, you can cancel to lvl 3 or 5 after getting touched during armor. It used to be level 1 also. I WISH he would bring that back. Maybe after all these changes the past year, he might since Fukua has taken a lot of beatings since this was removed almost back during her initial launch.
the reason for the removal of canceling to level 1's was because he wanted fukua to take more risk. just letting you know
 
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ZBnJlfG.png


If you can improve this to hit people in the air during a combo that would be really appreciated.
@Mike_Z
 
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it's difficult to see the assist sometimes, especially if they call it almost simultaneously and you don't see val or whoever jump out until after screen flash.
From what I tested with that assist, it seemed like if Peacock calls assist and immediately does super, she gets tagged. For your scenario to happen she has to call assist, have it land, start up the animation, then input super just before the active frames. Peacock isn't that big, during the flash it isn't super hard to tell there's an assist there (like, seeing if an assist is there during BB super flashes).

Don't mean to shut you down, just offering alternative options for you. Her calling assist also means she can't DHC to safety, also. Worse case scenario, you can just always PBGC BFF or just always BFF after the first beam, to never let yourself be in a situation where you aren't certain it'll hit.
 
Don't mean to shut you down, just offering alternative options for you. Her calling assist also means she can't DHC to safety, also.

Unless its trio pea/x/y and pea calls assist y, in which case she can still DHC to x. Just sayin'.
 
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Calling 3rd assist then DHC is soooo fun
 
How about buffing the knockback on Robo's head summon because it'll help her zoning

Some characters can just double jump or something else to negate most of the knockback on it which really sucks imo

I know sHK, head summon is a thing but you can ground tech forward it for free screen back which makes it worse than hitting with head summons against beowulf and parasoul
 
I have a question regarding Peacocks item drop super cancel window, H item to Argus specifically. I will skip the blogpost and just say that good players make the thing look easy!

By my rough estimate item drop needs about 12-15 frames before it appears on screen, but after 23 frames it is no longer possible to super cancel it. It leaves you with 8 to 11 frames to get it right. I could not find good reference point to "confirm" it. Shadow on the ground is hard to spot depending on the stage and both bubble with a note followed by sound appear roughly when it no longer works.

I imagine making item appear earlier would break all kind of other things and extending the cancel window could lead to comboes dropping even if you get it right depending on move you cancel from which is where the question comes from. Is it even possible to give this cancel a tiny bit more leniency, like making the item drop come out anyway if you use super early, or should I just go back to the lab and earn it like everyone before me did and everyone after me will have to?
 

This is splendid!
I'm more impressed with the st. hk double crossup than the actual shadow crossup. Kudos
 
Tiniest request if it's doable:

Double tag never crosses up, both hits will always hit on the same side. But, in the middle of the tag your character turns around and it usually confuses me since I see double tag so rarely, and I'll end up blocking the wrong way for the second hit.

Can this be fixed if possible?

Not a big deal if it's not, I'll just get good.
 
Tiniest request if it's doable:

Double tag never crosses up, both hits will always hit on the same side. But, in the middle of the tag your character turns around and it usually confuses me since I see double tag so rarely, and I'll end up blocking the wrong way for the second hit.

Can this be fixed if possible?

Not a big deal if it's not, I'll just get good.

Block in the exact same direction you blocked the first hit in. Just remember that.
 
RE: Double Cross
I always thought that was weird?? I'm not sure why it does that in the first place maybe it technically goes behind you for a few moments. That being said there are times where you either don't know how you blocked it or where it does actually crossup the first time (corner setups etc.) which screws things up. I'm not really suggesting a change cause it's pretty cool and unique but at the same time (;-;) sad time.
 
Block in the exact same direction you blocked the first hit in. Just remember that.
it usually confuses me since I see double tag so rarely
I mean, yeah it is just a matter of me needing to play better, but *if* it is an easy fix i can't see why it shouldn't be fixed
 
for reference: for newer players who might not know this (i.e. this isn't directed at you icky), double tag USED to always hit the other side on the 2nd hit, that is why the animation still looks like that sometimes. i remember when it got changed there were more than a few games that I got hit on the 2nd hit because it looked like it was still going to cross up and I forgot that it didn't anymore. I feel like having where double comes down from the sky for the 2nd hit be moved slightly backwards so it doesn't look weird might be an ok solution without breaking setups where the first hit crosses up, but idk.
 
@Mike_Z
Uh it's giving me lvl3 when I'm clearly doing qcf and squigly is facing the right side of the screen but gives me stance moves when I use one punch button.

edit: apologies for the volume. I forgot I had it that high.
 
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I'm not sure if Mike is interested in this, but it looks like replays still sometimes desync; I got one from my recent game at SkullBats, (let me know if you want the replay files.)
 
I absolutely adore Para Lvl3 changes now. Talk about making your DHC safe. I would ask for Bike to get the same treatment but I'm not gonna push my luck.
now only if we let parasoul taunt let her RC sniper/bikes

Thanks MZ
 
@Mike_Z
Uh it's giving me lvl3 when I'm clearly doing qcf and squigly is facing the right side of the screen but gives me stance moves when I use one punch button.

edit: apologies for the volume. I forgot I had it that high.
Holy shit, I thought I only got that because my inputs are sloppy.

I mean, I probably get it from sloppy inputs too, but it's nice knowing other people get it
 
I play Parasoul and I think that buff is too strong. lol

But I'll see what others think of it. Maybe it just fits my team's DHCs really well
 
I mean, yeah it is just a matter of me needing to play better, but *if* it is an easy fix i can't see why it shouldn't be fixed

The easiest fix for it is just improving your play which is keep blocking in the same direction and just get accustomed to it. If it confuses you because you see it so rarely, then just see it more often?? Literally just make a dummy in training room use it if you don't ever see anyone use it. This is just knowing the opponents move set.

Edit: If it wasn't clear enough, the problem doesn't lie in double's tag move. It lies in your unfamiliarity of the move. You've stated it yourself in your first post. There's no need to ask for a fix to a move you are just unfamiliar with because that move is not the problem no matter how "easy" the fix may be.

I feel like having where double comes down from the sky for the 2nd hit be moved slightly backwards so it doesn't look weird might be an ok solution without breaking setups where the first hit crosses up, but idk.

I don't think this will fix the issue. I've gotten confused by the tag when I started playing also because of the same reason @Icky mentioned. Because you turn around after the first hit when double passes you.

Edit2:changed some wording.
 
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