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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

I guess shouting "who's the best" is not going to get use anywhere so ill just say this. My top three at this point is Val, Filia, and Double in any order and leave it at that.

All I want is MDE on PS3 so I can try and make Squigly not bottom tier.
 
winnie said:
Dash in c.lk in something every character can do and its not a very strong tool for neutral game. Its not bad but I don't find it useful at neutral. As a reset, frame trap or pressure tool c.lk is a very good move but its laking as a poke.

Go look at the range on it and then add the fact that it is the fastest low in the game.
 
I don't think filia is a very good point, but I think she is Defo the best user in the game.

Her approach in the neutral can be deterred by assists and smart air to airs, but if she is coming in off of a successful DHC then you are in danger. Her being a user lets her start her fight in her best positioning.

Hence Val/Filia being such a good shell
 
So with that being said, I think we can conclude that Val/Filia/Double is some shit.
 
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winnie said:
I guess shouting "who's the best" is not going to get use anywhere so ill just say this. My top three at this point is Val, Filia, and Double in any order and leave it at that.

All I want is MDE on PS3 so I can try and make Squigly not bottom tier.
So duckator's team. Makes sense to me.
 
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A couple of small buffs I'd like to see for Squigly in Big Band Edition

1. A bigger hitbox on her air-throw and more time to hit-confirm a successful air-throw (more hitstop, longer animation, ground bounce, whatever)

Reason - Squigly doesn't have much going for her in the air-to-air department up close. j.HP is great but it only really functions at long range. At typical jump-in or IAD distances, all of her air to air buttons either lose or are difficult or impossible to convert into damage (j.MP), which means its very hard to keep your opponent on the ground where you can actually use your divekicks. A better air-throw would give her more options in this department. Also Squigly's air throw has a very short animation that makes it difficult to hit-confirm. Significantly shorter then any other character. Some help in that department would be nice.

2. A faster overhead

Reason - Now that Squigly's MK divekick doesn't hit overhead, she has some trouble opening people up during neutral. Instant HK divekick is an option, but its horribly unsafe without spending meter on-block. A small reduction in the startup of her f+HP, 2-3 frames at most, would give her some help in this department. I'm not sure on the exact frame data of her overhead but it definitely feels slower then Parasoul's B+HK (which got buffed with the Squigly patch).
 
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Personally one thing I would do for squigly is increase the startup of her divekick while increasing its hit/blockstun accordingly... So 2 frames more startup and 2 frames more blockstun as an example.
 
Jason said:
A couple of small buffs I'd like to see for Squigly in Big Band Edition
There is what I think.

1. Squigly's air throw is fine its actually better than most characters air throws and the range and start up don't really matter. Here is why, when is comes to air throws you very rarely use them in the neutral for most characters. This is because dash in air throw is a very risky tactic and the only character that I think can do this is Parasoul because her air throw has so much range. Squigly on the other had is very slow so a dash in air throw is rarely going to work, so what do you do? You use your air throw for resets. This way you can guaranty the hight you need to fallow up on it and its easy to hit confirm. As for the time you have to hit confirm that doesn't need to be changed because if the air throw connects then you should input the dive kick even if they tech the throw.

2. Squigly's overheads are fine as they are and don't need changes imo.
 
Painwheel's air grab is also a useful neutral game tool. It's got more range than most air grabs. In some matchups it's the only reliable air to air she has.
 
Well kind of what I was getting at was that a Parasoul-sized air throw would help Squigly's air to air game a lot. To be honest Parasoul doesn't even really need her giant airthrow hitbox either since her air to air game is incredibly good.
 
Squigly's air to air game is not that bad. at range you have j.hp and up close you have j.lk, j.lp, j.mk or if your above them j.hk. She doesn't have the best air ti air but its not garbage.

And yeah I forgot to mention PW's air grab but you cant really dash in air throw with PW its more of a fly in air throw.
 
j.mk has no range and j.lp is much better air to ground then air to air.

j.lk is ok, but its nothing compared to what the competition has, weather its Parasoul's j.lp or j.hp, Bella's j.mp, Val's j.hp, Filia's j.hp, PW/Double j.mp/j.hp.
 
Jason said:
j.mk has no range and j.lp is much better air to ground then air to air.

j.lk is ok, but its nothing compared to what the competition has, weather its Parasoul's j.lp or j.hp, Bella's j.mp, Val's j.hp, Filia's j.hp, PW/Double j.mp/j.hp.


It's a good PREEMPTIVE air to air.

The pattern of j.lk (wiff) xx divekick plus lockdown assist such as pw cr.mp or filia hairball or Bella cerecopter is pretty good once you get in. If the opponent tries to jump away you catch them with j.lk and cancel into divekick plus lockdown. If they stay on the ground it's still really hard to stop cause divekick is so fast and has so much priority.


Also, though certainly correct, all those listed air moves are really slow and if in range, jlk should destroy them for free.

Characters with good dash airthrows:

Double (best in game right now probably. Has parasouls dash with doubles airthrow range... It's ludicrous) Val (don't really need to explain this) parasoul, painwheel



Painwheels dash airthrow is good cause painwheel has a naturally high jump, one of the best airthrow ranges which is tied with double and because painwheels dash actually covers a good amount of ground once it has finished starting up, though it does take some getting used to when coming to her from different characters.
 
Jason said:
To be honest Parasoul doesn't even really need her giant airthrow hitbox either since her air to air game is incredibly good.

Parasols air throw/air to air game is partially so good because of air throw And the mind game you create between it and j.lp for jump ins.

So yeah she needs it pretty bad, considering controlling mid range in the air is the only thing she currently excels at over any other character
 
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To be brutally honest here all the Squigly players need to step up there game. They are not using Squigly to her full potential. I don't even have the game and I know more about this character than most of the people playing her. Its true that I haven't seen everything every player is doing so I can't call out all of them but Squigly players need to be more creative. Asking for buffs on a character that has only been playable for a few months is going to get us no where.

Sorry for the rant but it needed to be said.
 
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winnie said:
To be brutally honest here all the Squigly players need to step up there game. They are not using Squigly to her full potential. I don't even have the game and I know more about this character than most of the people playing her. Its true that I haven't seen everything every player is doing so I can't call out all of them but Squigly players need to be more creative. Asking for buffs on a character that has only been playable for a few months is going to get us no were.

Sorry for the rant but it needed to be said.
You could leave out "Squigly" in that entire passage and it'd still be accurate and relevant. :/
 
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Out of curiousity why did they remove the overhead property from Squigly divekick?
 
blufang said:
Out of curiousity why did they remove the overhead property from Squigly divekick?
I remember Mike asking people sometime during the beta if people would prefer the auto-correct on divekick or the overhead. I think people said they preferred the auto-correct so he removed the overhead property (emphasis on "I think" because I don't remember exactly what was said and there's a chance that he was already planning to remove the overhead property anyways).
 
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IMO I feel squigly is really really good, just highly underrated. I find it hard to believe some people are saying that shes at the bottom of the tier list. She seems really good as a assist or point character. I also feel that she is really good at locking you down and actually has oki setups. Shes very meter dependant imo, so I will see when the actual console patch, how I fair against people online with her. Until they get a proper online mac port for sg ;_;.
 
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I still say that Squigly's approach is way too linear. That wouldn't be a huge problem if she could force the opponent towards her with projectiles like Parasoul and Peacock can, but she can't even do that. The few chances I get a hit are mostly due to ambiguous divekick cross-ups and picking up an opponent with Silver Chord after my assist lands a random hit. I try for f.HP mixups or f.HP feints, but the opponent just has too much time to realize what is going on once they know what to look for.

One of the biggest disappointments is how SBO can be counter super'd unlike a good amount of other supers in the game. You can even counter super against Center Stage lvl 2 > SBO. Center Stage lvl 2 > Daisy Pusher is great, however once you realize that squigly always prefers you being on the ground, jumping often against squigly becomes a problem for her.

Squigly has a lot of tools to use against you once she actually lands a hit, the problem is actually landing the hit.
 
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RemiKz said:
Squigly has a lot of tools to use against you once she actually lands a hit, the problem is actually landing the hit.


Thats the main reason why I dropped her.. After a day or so, I already have a character like that (pw) great after the hit.. But takes some real skill to consistently get hits.


I think the answer may lie in choosing assists that are different from the known popular assists... Such as maybe excelebella... Keeps the opponent grounded or at the very least only empty jumping and is a stupid easy confirm.

I've been choosing cilia slide with painwheel and man... Gotta say I absolutely love it. Maybe thinking outside of the box as far as assists go is how to approach squigly... If she's on a team I can't really see anything else but assist abuse since that is what high level team play generally is... Who ever is smarter at getting there assist on screen in good positions as much as possible. Maybe selecting the perfect assist for her is also a component of that...

I'm just grasping at straws though.
 
Eh, I personally feel like hornet bomber is the best assist for her because of how easily she can convert off it with Silver Chord and how it locks down for her to try mixups.
 
To give a Squig shout out, Legendary_J (I think)... his combo is huge damage.

PW has some natural weaknesses to Squigs (probably the only character that hurt by j.hp at this point), but his play seemed solid.
 
Spencer said:
PW has some natural weaknesses to Squigs (probably the only character that hurt by j.hp at this point), but his play seemed solid.
You can grab Squigly out of j.HP with standing HK Buer Reaper, Bella's Excellabella works too. Squigly ain't got much in her favour at all.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
You can grab Squigly out of j.HP with standing HK Buer Reaper, Bella's Excellabella works too. Squigly ain't got much in her favour at all.

It does have some weaknesses, but the timing on it is pretty tight. I've found j.hk to be safer and easier to hit.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
You can grab Squigly out of j.HP with standing HK Buer Reaper, Bella's Excellabella works too. Squigly ain't got much in her favour at all.

Squigly's j.hp is out for like what 1-2 seconds there is no way a Painwheel player can beat it air to air and Squigly should just use j.hk is PW is on the ground. Don't know much about the match up but on paper it looks like Squigly has an advantage even if its just a small one.
 
winnie said:
Squigly's j.hp is out for like what 1-2 seconds there is no way a Painwheel player can beat it air to air and Squigly should just use j.hk is PW is on the ground. Don't know much about the match up but on paper it looks like Squigly has an advantage even if its just a small one.
I assumed that if standing Buer Reaper works then air Buer Reaper and/or her air super work too, on the other hand Squigly's only real options against an aerial Painwheel are j.HP (which if either of my two educated assumptions are correct, has been rendered pretty useless) or her DP, which is about as easy to get around as Filia's Updo (bait it, dunno if Hatred Armor works against it but if it does then that's yet another disadvantage for Squigs).
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
I assumed that if standing Buer Reaper works then air Buer Reaper and/or her air super work too, on the other hand Squigly's only real options against an aerial Painwheel are j.HP (which if either of my two educated assumptions are correct, has been rendered pretty useless) or her DP, which is about as easy to get around as Filia's Updo (bait it, dunno if Hatred Armor works against it but if it does then that's yet another disadvantage for Squigs).

Air reaper works, and air super would too. The problem you are facing is that it isn't as obvious as it seems. Squigly can adjust it with her double jump. If PW is flying, she can actually get higher than PW with ease and bring it down over most of your hitboxes.

I am not a bad PW, I promise... it is rough as shit to deal with unassisted.

Hatred guard doesn't work as it is hugely multihit (though j.hp is an option if you can get it out first). The entire move comes down to prediciting it. I can buer it, but I have to bait it. I can j.hp it... but I have to get above it and do it first. I can j.mp (super rarely... shittiest priority ever) if I can get j.mp out before she throws it out. Similarly, with air super, you are taking a risk.

Filia's Updo (as an assist) is a decent analogy because you do have to bait it. Essentially, I have to wait for the Squigs to screw up to get in. If the Squigs doesn't screw up... it is going to be a rough match.

I would say the MU is easily 6-4 in Squig's favor... she doesn't have a lot going for her, but she does have an easier match up in a 1v1 vs PW.
 
PW vs aerial opponent...air grab?
 
View619 said:
PW vs aerial opponent...air grab?

This I do need to try. See if I can't grab her j.hp on reaction.

As far as anyone else, yeah... absolutely. I play PW incredibly throw heavy... seriously, grappler throw heavy.
 
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Yeah it's the old story, painwheels priority generally sucks. It ant just against squigs though. If youve ever played against a good Bella or parasoul, or damn. Ear any other character, you have to use a bunch of tricks to get air to air wins. Having played against a decent amount of squiglys, her j.hp doesn't seem any more oppressive than Bella's dash jump j.mp.

The way, besides those things already mentioned, to combat squiglys j.hp is the way to deal with most oppressive aerials... Pushblock them.

I ain't saying the matchup ain't hard. But it is one of the hard match ups where pw has many ways to deal with her opponent.
Also, you can play games with squiglys j.hp...if she wants to beat out your j.mp. She will generally have to do it early where it hits the top Part of the screen... If she does that, pw can dash in under it. Not the most effective strategy, but it slows squigs down. And never forget lvl 1 hp stinger into fly. It eats up predictable j.hp and allows ow to go offensive.
 
Spencer said:
This I do need to try. See if I can't grab her j.hp on reaction.

As far as anyone else, yeah... absolutely. I play PW incredibly throw heavy... seriously, grappler throw heavy.

It makes me want to drown kittens. /salt

as for PW vs. Squigs air-to-air, PW's j.MP or j.HP beat Squigs' j.HP at best, and trades at worst. Squigs can double jump and j.HP coming down on top of PW always wins against j.MP, but you can delay/charge j.HP to bop that, but it's not reliable and tricky to time right and generally works against you in the "keep squigly out of dive-kick/crossup range" minigame.

I have had no luck whatsoever trying to air buer or ground HK-buer Squigly for spamming j.HP unless she's in the absolute utmost braindead spacing.

HP-Nail is still nice at decent range depending on assist structures.
 
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Spencer said:
This I do need to try. See if I can't grab her j.hp on reaction.

As far as anyone else, yeah... absolutely. I play PW incredibly throw heavy... seriously, grappler throw heavy.

Well, whenever I have an issue with an opponent favouring the air too much, I air grab. For a grounded AA, I go for the HK Buer, it usually works pretty well. And if you want the opponent to respect you in the air, you can go for the Air super into combo. Those are my standard solo go-to options; they don't work every time but they're pretty good to mix-up, especially if you can get a good read on the opponent.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
I assumed that if standing Buer Reaper works then air Buer Reaper and/or her air super work too, on the other hand Squigly's only real options against an aerial Painwheel are j.HP (which if either of my two educated assumptions are correct, has been rendered pretty useless) or her DP, which is about as easy to get around as Filia's Updo (bait it, dunno if Hatred Armor works against it but if it does then that's yet another disadvantage for Squigs).

Its much like the Dhalsim/Ryu matchup and trying to DP Dhalsim's limbs. At that range, a whiffed Reaper gets Painwheel punished with minimal damage, if anything. Probably nothing at all. A successful reaper gets PW's party started and everything goes to shit for Squigly.

Even though its not very likely that any individual Reaper will connect, sticking one out is low risk and the potential reward for hitting one is huge.
 
Except combo'ing off of a move that knocks Squigs super far away is hardly a way to start any PW party... and when I'm close enough to capitalize, j.hp is a lot less of a threat.
 
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