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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Double I honestly think doesn't really win any match-ups by herself but goes even in a good amount. I can't think of any match-ups she 6-4's...

EDIT: In general I don't think this game has anything worse than 6-4.

Encore is not like SDE and I think the game is VERY balanced right now in terms of match-ups.

In terms of tier list I feel like this game is more like UMVC3 when its about match-ups and the tier list is kinda whatever buuuut right noooow I'd saaay.

S: Fortune, Valentine, Parasoul
A+: Filia
A: Painwheel, Double
B: Squigly, Cerebella, Peacock
 
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Why do you have Para vs Val as 4:6?
 
alexpi said:
Why do you have Para vs Val as 4:6?

That might be 5:5, but overall Valentine can just stay above Parasoul which is never what the bae wants. You have to get a really smart J.LK so thats an issue.

Valentine outzones, and can just outright beat Parasouls zoning.

She rivals Parasouls air game. Which not many characters can say.

It might be 5:5 just because of the lack Val's tools to get out of pressure, how the air game is still pretty even, and how Parasoul tends to win on the ground up close but I don't really think Parasoul overcomes Val.
 
val's st.hk and fireball is enough to make that match tricky for PS. Tack on much better mobility and being able to punish (bad) shots
 
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I can't speak on the Val matchup, but on
Paper it seems like it should be parasoul favor cause of the priority. As far as Val outzoning parasoul... I saw Pali doing a backdash after every shot and duck couldn't out zone him with crosses... Don't know if that still
Applies or *ever* applied... But yeah. Parasoul versus head off fortune seems pretty terrible to me.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
So uh when are we making a matchup chart? It'll give us something to talk about, at least. http://pastebin.com/68f80eWv
And since I imagine someone will say that it's pointless to do 1v1 matchups since there are assists... I put my reasoning in the pastebin, but at least it wouldn't hurt to at least get something up, right?
I wouldn't say that val beats fortune. I agree that val wins the aerial game, but fortune has not real need to challenge her in the air. The head completely limits vals ground options, making her approach rather predictable, and val cant stay in the air forever. I think if fortune stays patient and on the ground, there's not much val can do.
 
There's really not much stopping Fortune from just doing a fiber-upper on val every time she tries to go in from the air. Its safe on whiff and safe if they block it form the air (I think, maybe scalpels can punish if you get the right angle). The only time you really get punished for Fiber Upper is when somebody blocks it on the ground which is only when they're standing right next to you.
 
IsaVulpes said:
What do you do against head-off Fortune for this to be a 4.5/5.5?

I surreptitiously kick the Fortune player in the shins
 
keninblack said:
Double I honestly think doesn't really win any match-ups by herself but goes even in a good amount. I can't think of any match-ups she 6-4's...

I personally think double beats fortune, painwheel, bella and squigly 6-4, but who knows lol.

As for bellas mu's I personally believe they're drastically different when an assist is or isn't in play. If my opponent has a dp assist or hornet bomber I think the mu is at best 4-6 for bella, but without an assist with the exceptions of fortune and val I think bella goes even.
 
Jason said:
There's really not much stopping Fortune from just doing a fiber-upper on val every time she tries to go in from the air. Its safe on whiff and safe if they block it form the air (I think, maybe scalpels can punish if you get the right angle). The only time you really get punished for Fiber Upper is when somebody blocks it on the ground which is only when they're standing right next to you.
Scalpels punishes it, and hell even if you can't punish Fortune she's still at a disadvantage so you still get a low/throw/disgusting-air-grab-reads when you're out of blockstun.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Scalpels punishes it, and hell even if you can't punish Fortune she's still at a disadvantage so you still get a low/throw/disgusting-air-grab-reads when you're out of blockstun.
Unless of course, she does another Fiber.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
What do you do against head-off Fortune for this to be a 4.5/5.5?

Give up on zoning and go in the booty so hard she never gets to use the head.

Try to put the head and fortune in the corner to get extra damage.

Watch out for stupid noms.
I've played Chris enough to look out for silly shit so I'm thankful for that.

Para still has a hard time doe :(
 
Jason said:
There's really not much stopping Fortune from just doing a fiber-upper on val every time she tries to go in from the air. Its safe on whiff and safe if they block it form the air (I think, maybe scalpels can punish if you get the right angle). The only time you really get punished for Fiber Upper is when somebody blocks it on the ground which is only when they're standing right next to you.

Fiber upper gets blown up like everything else:

Empty jump in with invincible assist, blowup fiber upper, take your easy confirm into damage.
 
keninblack said:
Double I honestly think doesn't really win any match-ups by herself but goes even in a good amount. I can't think of any match-ups she 6-4's...

EDIT: In general I don't think this game has anything worse than 6-4.

Encore is not like SDE and I think the game is VERY balanced right now in terms of match-ups.

In terms of tier list I feel like this game is more like UMVC3 when its about match-ups and the tier list is kinda whatever buuuut right noooow I'd saaay.

S: Fortune, Valentine, Parasoul
A+: Filia
A: Painwheel, Double
B: Squigly, Cerebella, Peacock

Speaking from experience the other way, I think Double beats Painwheel and Squigly handily, on her own, even without meter.

Personally I think my list, judging by influence on the game, not solo performance, would be:

Fortune, Fillia, Double
Valentine, Cerebella, Parasoul
Squigly, Big Band
Painwheel, Peacock

Some characters, like Double and Big Band, obviously get a huge boost just for their assists here, so its not really a list based on matchup charts.

My opinion shifts slightly every now and then, so lets see how I feel about this in a while.
 
I think making a list with the characters being on point with an ideal assist is the better way to go rather then placing them high because of how well they support a team.
 
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Alternatively, everyone can do what they want because its all constructive and arguing over which way is the best is fucking retarded. Regardless of the method, we are still finding the strengths and weaknesses and the match up difficulties. The time for meta-tier debate is fucking over.
 
RemiKz said:
I think making a list with the characters being on point with an ideal assist is the better way to go rather then placing them high because of how well they support a team.

I think quality of your assists is an important factor. I mean lots of people consider Dr.Doom to be high-tier in Marvel 3, but he'd hardly see any play without the strength of his assists.
 
Jason said:
I think quality of your assists is an important factor. I mean lots of people consider Dr.Doom to be high-tier in Marvel 3, but he'd hardly see any play without the strength of his assists.

Hm, I'm not that good at UMvC3 but I thought that DD is so popular because he has an amazing assist, infinite combo, great zoning, and has a stupid X-Factor lvl3.

Regardless, since assists matter they should factor in to the tier discussion somehow.
 
Doom is the least threatening anchor you'll see in competitive play XF3 or not. Double has much more utility on her own than Doom.
 
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Doom was good at first but the way the meta moved on he's pretty bad.

He'll beat every bad XF3 anchor but will lose to literally ANY decent one. (Vergil, Hawkeye, Strider, Akuma, the list goes on)

Fucking Parasoul's top 3 in this game so I'm happy. WHAT WE DO NEED IS A CONSTRUCTIVE THREAD ON WHAT WE CALL EACH POSSIBLE TEAM COMBINATION.

Val/Filia/Double Team Duckator
Parasoul/Painwheel/Double Team Pali
Squigly/Peacock/Valentine Team What The Fuck Are You Doing?
 
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The way I'm seeing things:

Top:

Double,Filia,Val, fortune, parasoul

Mid:
Bella, peacock, BB, squigly.


Bottom:

Painwheel.


Top assist shells for characters IMO:


Val (updo) filia (lk or mk bomber) double (pillar) peacock (updo or bomber) fortune (cerecopter or updo or bomber) parasoul (lk bomber or updo) BB (homing plane) squigly (cerecopter)


Overall best assist in the game is lk Bomber imho. Updo and cerecopter are very close, h lnl I specifically like for countering bomber/other assists. Hairball is a good try for countering lnl and bomber and is good for lockdown, but can be a tricky confirm for some characters from some angles... Plus it isn't invincible.

Lk bomber gives the advantages of an unduckable, hitconfirmable, doesn't knock far away, invincible assist. It's primary problem being a lack of range but funnily enough... Because of the nature of skullgirls, that weakness is largely mitigated by most characters wanting to be close when attacking.
 
Top 3
Valentine, Fortune, Filia

Middle 3
Parasol, Double, Pain wheel

Bottom 3
Bella, Squiggly, Peacock

???
Big Band

Top three should be a given, I like Parasol over Double due to strong tools overall plus a strong grounded reversal, while Double Luger isn't nearly as good as Napalm Shots and she doesn't really have a "safe" reversal without 2 bar. Pain Wheel over the bottom three since she has strong zoning tools now, anti-zoning tools (Flight, armour, Level 3), reversals on the ground and in the air, good range on some key normals (c.lk, j.mp, c.hk).

Bella over the other two due to not being gimped on defense for the most part, Squiggly over Peacock due to better supers and a stronger reversal (Daisy Pusher), Peacock has the weakest pressure game and weakest defense, she can't really do anything solo. But I would put her pretty high when backed by a good assist.

Big Band isn't really done yet, so I wouldn't bother giving an opinion on him. Besides Peacock, everybody can pressure well enough for it not to be a major factor in determining tier position, imo.
 
Nobody knows.

Filia is god, the nerfs were a lie. Soon the horror will be clear. SOOOOON

S tier
Filia

A tier
Fortune, Parasoul, Valentine, Bella

B tier
Peacock, Double, Painwheel, Squigly, (Big Band)

I don't use S tier in my lists, but I actually do think Filia is broken good in the right(wrong!) hands. Her mixup is just straight unreactable, safe on block (with a few exceptions), and ignores 3/4 of pushblocks. Her movement is super fast on approach and retreat, and she has every angle available due to whiff cancelled airballs. Her defense is super strong, Gregor is just a part of it but that alone makes her super risky to reset against. Then she has updo assist.

Fortune does two things better than Filia. She pressures people from a distance with her head off, and she can convert dp meterlessly. Everything else is just a different flavour of the same stuff, and Filia's stuff is faster.
 
Age said:
Nobody knows.

Filia is god, the nerfs were a lie. Soon the horror will be clear. SOOOOON

S tier
Filia

A tier
Fortune, Parasoul, Valentine, Bella

B tier
Peacock, Double, Painwheel, Squigly, (Big Band)

I don't use S tier in my lists, but I actually do think Filia is broken good in the right(wrong!) hands. Her mixup is just straight unreactable, safe on block (with a few exceptions), and ignores 3/4 of pushblocks. Her movement is super fast on approach and retreat, and she has every angle available due to whiff cancelled airballs. Her defense is super strong, Gregor is just a part of it but that alone makes her super risky to reset against. Then she has updo assist.

Fortune does two things better than Filia. She pressures people from a distance with her head off, and she can convert dp meterlessly. Everything else is just a different flavour of the same stuff, and Filia's stuff is faster.
I'm interested in what makes you rate Double so incredibly low and why you think Squigly is worst/tentative second worst?
 
Tomo009 said:
I'm interested in what makes you rate Double so incredibly low and why you think Squigly is worst/tentative second worst?
I'm especially interested in the "Squigly being worst/tentative second worst" bit.
 
Overall, their big weakness are

Double: very poor mixup game. Outside of instant teacups, her mixup options are low and throw. She needs 2 meters to be safe. Light Hornet Bomber is a mediocre reversal that's extremely unsafe without, again, 2 meters. That said, Fleshstep and Parasoul's forward dash give her some decent crossups. She's also tied for having the worst backdash in the game.

Squigly: Terrible walkspeed and bad dashes. She has no real reversal option other than Daisy Pusher (Draugn Punch is terrible). To be at her most effective, she needs a stance charge and good fireballs make that very difficult. Her DHC options are also pretty rough

All that said, it's not like either are Dan tier.
 
Tomo009 said:
I'm interested in what makes you rate Double so incredibly low and why you think Squigly is worst/tentative second worst?

I guess the way I'd describe it is that Double is no longer the anchor she used to be. She's still fantastic as a team utility character, but she is prone to getting rushed by the pixies and prone to getting zoned by the zoners if she doesn't have an assist, or is prepared to burn a ton of meter to get mixup or two.

Squigly needs more exploration to really understand her game, but she's more of a utility character again to me. If she has meter and an assist then her sing charging shenanigans are really powerful, but getting in that situation isn't always reliable.
 
I'm still a firm believer on Squigly being placed that low, but she definitely isn't the slouch she used to be now that she got a sped up overhead and charged center stage > sbo being a huge threat.
 
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RemiKz said:
I'm still a firm believer on Squigly being placed that low, but she definitely isn't the slouch she used to be now that she got a sped up overhead and charged center stage > sbo being a huge threat.
And midscreen double snaps with charged Center Stage > SBO are also scary.
 
IMO the only real holes in Squigly's game are weak mobility and a mostly worthless DP, and if you can manage to get a stance-charge and some meter one of those problems goes away.
 
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Squigly is bottom 3/4 in a game with 9 characters. She's definitely not as bad as she used to be (I think she's pretty damn good now) but I'm definitely more afraid of Fortune, Fil, Val, Parasoul, and PW (read: Those characters are still better).
 
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keninblack said:
Doom was good at first but the way the meta moved on he's pretty bad.

He'll beat every bad XF3 anchor but will lose to literally ANY decent one. (Vergil, Hawkeye, Strider, Akuma, the list goes on)

Fucking Parasoul's top 3 in this game so I'm happy. WHAT WE DO NEED IS A CONSTRUCTIVE THREAD ON WHAT WE CALL EACH POSSIBLE TEAM COMBINATION.

Val/Filia/Double Team Duckator
I've actually been using the following:
Filia/Double - either "Hair Monster," "Core" because it's the core of Duck + Severin + Negus + a bunch of other teams, or "MSP" mainly because it's the closest to MSP equivalent I've found
Peacock/Big Band - "Lab 8" or "Peanuts" because not calling it that
PW/Double - "Car Install" no matter which order it's in, if you go the full Negus (add Updo) you can change it to "Core Install" but it's easier to just say "Car Install with Updo/Pillar/etc"
Squigly/BB - "Yaya" or "Squig Band"
Para/Filia/Double - "Sev"
Val/Filia/Double - "Duck"

These aren't designed to be cute; they're supposed to be somewhat intuitive. Most of the time we just use a portmanteau of assist/character names (Peacock + Bella LnL = "Cock 'N Load," Fortune + Filia = "Fiber Updo" etc).
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Squigly is bottom 3/4 in a game with 9 characters. She's definitely not as bad as she used to be (I think she's pretty damn good now) but I'm definitely more afraid of Fortune, Fil, Val, Parasoul, and PW (read: Those characters are still better).
Being bottom in this scenario isn't necessarily bad, since it's a small roster (like you mentioned). Mechanics kinda play into this as well, since there are other games with a similarly small roster whose mechanics create a large gap between top and bottom.

Perfect example: Hokuto no Ken (2006). Decent fighting game, similar mechanics to GG, but their iteration of IPS actually led to (ironically enough) infinites known as Dribble Combos. In SG, every character is viable, with varying amounts of work, and the worst matchup is 6-4 (based on what was posted in this thread). In HnK, Jagi is essentially Dan-Tier, and has TWO 1-9 matchups. HnK has 10 characters, but the divide between Toki (arguably best) and Jagi is STEEP compared to SG.
 
Squigly kinda reminds me of Hakan in SF4. Really dangerous with a charge, really not without.
 
Peacock/Big Band is team Cock Punch. End of discussion.
 
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