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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

If you want me to count your vote, you have to include all characters.
And order matters.
 
Seems like Squigly really has to force her opponent to come to her, since she doesn't really have any good ways in.

Center Stage > SBO is basically worthless as a way-in against any character who is standing on the ground and has meter, and totally worthless against anybody with an invincible air-super (Valentine, Fortune, Filia, PW) because they can just mash it on reaction to the SBO super-freeze.
 
worldjem said:
If you want me to count your vote, you have to include all characters.
And order matters.
Are you looking for votes? Shouldn't you make a different thread or get together an actual poll to process this?
 
tires don exits

Sorry, someone had to say it...
 
Squigly has subpar neutral *imo* - a no damage longrange poke and this Divekick are just not cutting it.
Her ground normals either have short range or feel sluggish and her mobility is bad enough that she can hardly maneuver around even Tearshot zoning.

On top of that, her defense is one of the absolute worst in the game -
She has no air super, bad mobility to escape the corner, no chargeless meterless options at all,
her one true grounded reversal costs a bar, can get countersupered and doesn't work against air, ..

With no single button I'm afraid of, her damage being bad (+ waste-of-meter supers)
and her only actual neutral tool - Center xx Opera - being a gimmicky version of Bypass Knives that never hits,
plus the ever looming danger of losing a won round after getting touched once, I don't see how this would be a "good character" in anyone's eyes

Strong assists and Opera DHCs are not enough to make her a threat -
She feels like SDE Painwheel with good assists and no damage.

(From the *VERY* limited Squigly experience I've had so far)
 
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@worldjem

Squigly last. All the others are in order.

@IsaVulpes
One thing I've found myself disliking about her is that my cr.lk is constantly wiffing under otg fallen body characters as they bounce. Cr.lp makes up for that but has less range.

Those are the only things that I've found so far that piss me off.
 
For me:

1: Valentine, Fortune, Parasoul
2: Filia, Painwheel, Double, Cerebella
3: Peacock, Squiggly

On Peacock, I put her at bottom because there are just too many gaps in her pressure now. She only needs slight buffs though. (I'd buff jab item drop to make it more used, and keep the 2 George limit, but no longer require different buttons)
 
Couldn't we also rank the relevant teams? I know that we can not be completely comprehensive when we are ranking the permutations, but at least we can gain information from it. Maybe there are ways to abstract a team and simplify them into categories like Valentine w/ DP assist or Filia w/ lockdown assist. Admittedly the categories wouldn't work exactly like that because ultimately when judging a team the assist eventually will have to be considered as a character, but I am almost more interested in the team aspect (both are crucial though). This may just require another thread.
 
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i think in regards to poeple thinking of bella as low tier, they forget that this is a team game where you can DHC her into her optimal position off most hits with your point.

She also has some of the best overall utility assists.
 
GirlyStyle said:
i think in regards to poeple thinking of bella as low tier, they forget that this is a team game where you can DHC her into her optimal position off most hits with your point.

She also has some of the best overall utility assists.

Agreed. Does anyone run her point in a team?
 
Spencer said:
Agreed. Does anyone run her point in a team?
Chilldog, Painsley, and @dekillsage all do. TJGamer sometimes puts Cerebella on point for certain matchups.
 
Age runs point Bella and zidiane runs solo Bella as well.
 
I haven't really played the pc port for a while, so this might be a shitty list?
This list is split in three for characters in teams on point, assist value, and DHC value.
Order does indeed matter

On Point:
S+:Val,Fortune
S: Filia, Peacock, Parasoul/Bella
A: Painwheel, Double
B: Squigly

Assists:
S: Bella, Squigly, Filia
A: Parasoul, Double, Fortune
B: Peacock
C: Val, Painwheel

DHC capability:

S+: Painwheel
S: Double, Squigly
A: everyone else

Also yeah I have a tendency to forget important shit, so I might reel back and edit this LOL
 
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maybe we shouldn't use arbitrary and confusing made up lettering systems...
 
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The letters are far from arbitrary, they serve the purpose of giving relative strength compared with th rest of the cast. They are fine as long as we have a clear understand of WHAT we are comparing.
 
GirlyStyle said:
maybe we shouldn't use arbitrary and confusing made up lettering systems...
I can see how they're arbitrary, but why are they confusing?
I like the mtg style tier list better, honestly. Instead of tier S+ through F-, it's tier 1 through infinity.
 
Domos list is the best one I've seen so far. The only thing I would really argue is peacock cold be a bit higher up on assists with st.hp,lk George and mk george.

Yeah the s number system isn't very good. S was always reserved for at akuma level characters or 3s gill characters... Ie nigh unbeatable and generall banned... Which makes them "S"pecial.

But I digress, we can just ignore the alphabet system and look at his list sequentially. I like the 3 groups he has. The last one that he could have put up was an anchor group. Double is still decent as an anchor, and filia is a good anchor, painwheel I think is also a good anchor . But mostly only because of her great dhc synergy and install being a good anchor super.
 
Horseman said:
Are you looking for votes? Shouldn't you make a different thread or get together an actual poll to process this?

The current poll system doesn't allow "ranking" votes. Just Pick 1 or pick multiple. I'd have to make a thread for each character saying "How would you rank X vs the rest of the cast? 1-9 (1 being highest)."
But, I'll ask Vad about this. I'll make a new thread if we can do this.

With that said, this thread has already been made and people are going to post their tier lists in it anyway, and I already started, so... =P

Domo I just took your "point" tier list.

irYlU8aGUg33l.png


The problem with letter rankings is that people have different definitions for what the letters mean. Some people think "S" is broken, others think "S" is just the best in the game, or just really good, but not good enough to be broken. The rest of the letters would follow the strength of S meaning the way you think of letter tiers could be completely different from the way someone else thinks of letter tiers. This is one of the reasons why there's a lot more unnecessary debate about tiers than there could be.

A tier list should be viewed relatively within each respective game, meaning using "best to worst" instead of trying to quantify a power level.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Chilldog, Painsley, and @dekillsage all do. TJGamer sometimes puts Cerebella on point for certain matchups.

Egg on my face...

Watched a couple of Chilldog games and think that those Bella weaknesses are overstated with good assists.
 
Poor Squigly...I'm glad I decided to go with a 3 person team rather than solo Squigs.
 
blufang said:
Poor Squigly...I'm glad I decided to go with a 3 person team rather than solo Squigs.

You can do well solo as the game seems to still be pretty balanced. I solo PW which is a constant uphill battle, but not significantly so. Gotta play what appeals to you, you know?
 
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blufang said:
Poor Squigly...I'm glad I decided to go with a 3 person team rather than solo Squigs.
Remember that squigly is a new character coming into a year old fighting game. It's entirely plausible that she could climb the tier list as we learn more about how to play her.
 
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Question:

When talking about trios and duos what is the characters best position... Here are my thoughts.

Val, point always)

Filia, duo anchor, trio second or anchor. I like filias point play, but having her up front when she's so good at: playing by herself, having amazing assists, and having a super dhc... Seems like a waste to put filia at point... Though yes technically she fills every spot well.

Fortune, point or second

Bella, I think anchor Bella has issues getting in so I will say point and second duo or trio... Her high hp helps her out alot at anchor for second imho than it would for other characters

Squigly, second on trio, point on duo... I don't like anchor squigly at this point in time so I don't want her running around without assists.

Parasoul, point on duo, point or second on trio. I don't like parasoul without assists.

Painwheel, point on duo, point or second or anchor on trio... I don't like anchor pw on duos for some reason... I think its because I'm not to into relying on a painwheel assist to get me through the day, whereas on a trio team if its built right painwheel can come in with the advantage from a dhc into install if at anchor, or doesn't need her assist to be used as primary if at second.

Double, its hard to find an assist good enough for double at the point position that doesn't force a character I don't like into the anchor spot at duo. So duo double I think is best at anchor. Trio double is probably best at point or anchor, though she can play second well she kinda hangs the second character UNLESS IT IS PAINWHEEL at which point double is a great second. Outside of that though I like double on point or anchor for trio.

Peacock, point on duo. Point or second on trio. I don't like anchor cock.

So those are my thoughts for duo and trio team formats. I wish I knew how to make spreadsheets cause that would help a bunch.
 
Dime_x said:
Bella, I think anchor Bella has issues getting in so I will say point and second duo or trio... Her high hp helps her out alot at anchor for second imho than it would for other characters

high HP? doesn't everyone have the same HP.
 
In reference to trio hp. I think Bella's higher hp at duo helps her out more than other characters in that same position, as does her damage.
 
Dime_x said:
In reference to trio hp. I think Bella's higher hp at duo helps her out more than other characters in that same position, as does her damage.
ah I see, that makes a lot of sense.
 
Horseman said:
I can see how they're arbitrary, but why are they confusing?
I like the mtg style tier list better, honestly. Instead of tier S+ through F-, it's tier 1 through infinity.
Camail said:
The letters are far from arbitrary, they serve the purpose of giving relative strength compared with th rest of the cast. They are fine as long as we have a clear understand of WHAT we are comparing.


not to call Domo out but...

On Point:
S+:Val,Fortune
S: Filia, Peacock, Parasoul/Bella
A: Painwheel, Double
B: Squigly

Assists
S: Bella, Squigly, Filia
A: Parasoul, Double, Fortune
B: Peacock
C: Val, Painwheel


How is this not confusing/arbitrary?

What is the difference between S+ and S? why does one tier go from S to S+ but then the other goes from S to A? What are
the values that allow that difference?

I understand when its in an order or a list, but when these values are used so frivolously, they end up meaning nothing.

A constant set of numbers honestly makes more sense, as a numerical value holds more weight then "S+". This is something I am only really coming to realize now, heck if you go back a couple pages even I used the letter system, but since its so abstract it creates room for confusion/misinterpretation.
 
GirlyStyle said:
How is this not confusing/arbitrary?

What is the difference between S+ and S? why does one tier go from S to S+ but then the other goes from S to A? What are
the values that allow that difference?

I understand when its in an order or a list, but when these values are used so frivolously, they end up meaning nothing.

A constant set of numbers honestly makes more sense, as a numerical value holds more weight then "S+". This is something I am only really coming to realize now, heck if you go back a couple pages even I used the letter system, but since its so abstract it creates room for confusion/misinterpretation.
If we were doing something formal we would describe that, but we aren't. Just know that there is a relatively significant gap in power from S+ to S. That should be pretty clear to any bystander.
 
well your talking down to me, so you must be right!

since its all "opinion" where the difference between "S" and "S+" is, its not really clear, especially when people offer no other insight on why one character is S and the other is S+ and then they don't keep their listing constant.

I have no idea, in Domo's list, what the difference in ability/power is between Val/Fortune and Filia/Peacock/etc. Do you? Based on his list, and how he has used other letter values, can you tell me? You seem to have a lot of insight on it...
 
Horseman said:
If we were doing something formal we would describe that, but we aren't. Just know that there is a relatively significant gap in power from S+ to S. That should be pretty clear to any bystander.
Really? Because if I saw a list that included A,S, and S+ I'd assume the gap from S to S+ to be fairly minor.
 
There is a minor difference between a grade and its plus and minus values, much like how an "A+" or "A-" on a report card is still an "A", but not significantly different. That's... about all there is to that. If you want an exact reason as to what makes a character plus or minus, then just ask the person who made the list.
 
The letters serve their purpose. Any sort of meaningful description of each rank will be reducible to each specific pro and con of each character so if you are seeking for the letters to have any meaning other than (if x=s and y=a then x>a) then you are barking up the wrong tree. You need to find the discussion of the tiers if you want to know that, not the tiers themselves.

Now, if what you want is the reason he ranks each character by each letter then he can give that to you, but that is a discussion and not part of the tier list. His tier list is only ever meant to order them, anything with a higher grade is better, same grade is equal, lower grade is worse. It was never suppose to tell us why. A tier list itself carries very little data.
 
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Please refer to my example, being Domo's list.

I understand that its a list, and that its in a list in order, and the + or lack there of represents a value which is minimal (maybe? others have had differing opinions already...) but still creates separation, but my issue here is when people change the standards of their list and their values (where the top of ONE section is S+, where the height of another is simply S).

This takes it outside of the realm of comparison of a list and places more weight on these made up values, and can make it hard to discuss the intricacies of someone's opinion.

Why not just have values which serve the same purpose as Camail is talking about (something being a list, 1 is better then 2, etc) as opposed to attaching values with no definition? Is there any reason not to? If you feel the reason to attach such a value, is there any reason to not give it context?
 
I've got no issue with letter tiers but if your list is to the point where you have S and S+ you should probably just adjust everyone down a slot and drop the "+" nomenclature altogether.
 
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I think I'm going to get off the whole tier desiccation until at least the PSN version comes out.

Moving on, how do you guys feel about Squigly's match ups? I haven't been able to play her yet and from what I'm reading everyone doesn't think she is that good but I want to know if she has any good match ups. Even if a character is bad doesn't mean all her match ups are bad.
 
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hard to tell with squiggly at the moment, but with proper assist cover she is pretty beast when up close due to cancels.

her burst baits are also pretty crazy.

I feel like she does well against people who are more suspect to ground resets, such as double and painwizard.

Also, and again this is probably due to inexperience, but I feel like her MUs fluctuate heavily depending on spacing. Some characters she will do well against at a distance and an appropriate assist, others she does better as a pressure monster.
 
This is how I define letter tiers

SSSS: Ivan Ooze
SSS: Folks who think ST Akuma should be legal think this char should be banned.
SS: I think this char should be banned, and if it's Soul Calibur, the French already have banned it.
S: Strongest chars in game, has very few and slight or no bad matchups.
A: Can compete with top tiers pretty well, but not as strong. Usually can be counterpicked.
B: Has difficulty with enough of the top tiers to not be a very good choice in tournies
C: Bad character, VF5FS Jeffry
D: KOFXI Momoko
E: 3s Sean

I wouldn't rate any Skullgirls char below an A, with the possible exception of Squiggly who might get an A-

-/+ means unsure between two levels, the letter is which one I think it is.
 
winnie said:
I think I'm going to get off the whole tier desiccation until at least the PSN version comes out.

Moving on, how do you guys feel about Squigly's match ups? I haven't been able to play her yet and from what I'm reading everyone doesn't think she is that good but I want to know if she has any good match ups. Even if a character is bad doesn't mean all her match ups are bad.

Para>Squigly, free
Peacock>Squigly, super free
Squigly>Painwheel, pretty close though

The rest, more or less even.
 
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yeah only thing i have noticed Squiggly can do against parasoul really is put her through burst bait hell, but she can do that against everyone...
 
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