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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Spencer said:
We can. I don't think neither view nor Khaos is saying we can't or shouldn't.

That said, it is something that is more relevant in a guide as a chapter entitled "good assists". Using assists to compare vs other MU is superfluous because you are essentially saying toon A vs (toon B - [weakness/es]). In a 1v1 comparison, we acknowledge the hole leaving the question of "how to cover the weakness" as a distinct discussion (which as you point out, can be had along side of the 1v1 conversation). I like the distinction because if for no other reason, it keeps it clean and tidy.
Just get a thread for 1 v 1 matchups and another for assists.
 
I really think a tier list should be reflective of a character in a 1 on 1 scenario. Assists are an essential part of the game, no doubt, but they aren't guaranteed in a match. You're one or two snaps or bad assist calls away from losing your assist and being left with your charcter all on their lonesome. That's where I wanna know how my character stacks up. That's what the actual tier list should tell me.
 
Since it is a team game, tiers should be ranking the best teams.
 
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blufang said:
Since it is a team game, tiers should be ranking the best teams.
There's thousands of potential team/assist combinations. There's only 9 (soon to be 13) characters. It's far more practical to rank characters into tiers than teams.
 
ragnorok64 said:
There's thousands of potential team/assist combinations. There's only 9 (soon to be 13) characters. It's far more practical to rank characters into tiers than teams.


No, it's completely and utterly impractical to asses characters outside of all of their potential assets when thinking of comprehensive tier lists. You are essentially examining the characters in a nonexistent game if you choose to ignore team mechanics.

If you want to have a 1v1 list which is seperate, that's fine, but Your point of "assists are not guaranteed" is moot since 1v1 is also not guaranteed
 
GirlyStyle said:
No, it's completely and utterly impractical to asses characters outside of all of their potential assets when thinking of comprehensive tier lists. You are essentially examining the characters in a nonexistent game if you choose to ignore team mechanics.

If you want to have a 1v1 list which is seperate, that's fine, but Your point of "assists are not guaranteed" is moot since 1v1 is also not guaranteed

I don't think "impractical" fits in that context.

Here's the thing, potential assists aren't the character's assets. A character's normals, specials, movement options, and gameplay qualities are their assets. If a weak character is paired with a very complimentary it doesn't suddenly make them a better character they're just a weak character with a good assist. The resulting team may be greater than the sum of its parts, but once one character is isolated the strengths of the character are what come to play. Hence why I believe lists should be based on characters, not teams.
 
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Well I'm just going to throw this out there:

Assuming they are backed with a proper team:
S: Fortune, Valentine
A: Parasoul, Filia, Cerebella, Painwheel,
B: Peacock, Double, Squigly

Solo:
S: Fortune
A: Parasoul, Filia, Double, Cerebella
B: Painwheel, Valentine, Peacock, Squigly

I'd be interested in what people think an assist tier list would look like. Not in terms of the characters, but in terms of individual assists that you run into all the time.
 
for the people that list fortune as highest up on teams... could we get some info on why you guys feel that way? in sde she was famous for her tod...and that tod is what catapulted her onto most peoples highest position tier list... but as far as I know that tod is now gone... so why do so many people still rank her the highest? I still want to know since im trying to pick her up.

also
@RemiKz

you said on proper teams... what team do you feel is the proper one for fortune?

right now im using fortune/double/filia with m bomber and h updo.
 
That's actually the exact same team I use for fortune but with filia and double swapped around.

Honestly, I feel like the only thing Fortune really needs is a good lockdown assist to help her land that first hit. Also something that helps her beat out people in the air since she doesn't have the best air-to-air options. Basically bomber and updo solve that problem. Copter is a good choice as well for lockdown as well as combo extensions (lets her combo off throw midscreen).

Also from an earlier post I made:
- Has one of the highest damage outputs in the game
- Aside from cerebella's devil horn, fortune has the only reversal that you can combo off of meterless without the need of a corner
- Said reversal is also the safest on whiff
- Fastest low in the game with great range
- An airdash and a double jump
- An invincible reversal that is POSITIVE on block and staggers
- Can control a lot of space headless
- Versatile/flexible
- Good assist/great alpha counter
 
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RemiKz said:
That's actually the exact same team I use for fortune but with filia and double swapped around.

Honestly, I feel like the only thing Fortune really needs is a good lockdown assist to help her land that first hit. Also something that helps her beat out people in the air since she doesn't have the best air-to-air options. Basically bomber and updo solve that problem. Copter is a good choice as well for lockdown as well as combo extensions (lets her combo off throw midscreen).

Also from an earlier post I made:


My biggest problem with fortune is that I haven't played one that actually was able to open up with her... All the good ones just turtle up behind updo and/or Bomber...I have an opponent online that is decent with her and he opens up a decent amount, but its almost all with iad j.hp and I know for a fact that is mostly a lag tactic cause I can block it on reaction offline.

Her throw gets scary on taludas team with cerecopter since she can convert midscreen... But she seems kinda gimped without it... I'm not scared of her high/low and I'm not scared of her throw game and she has no real crossup game..
I AM scared of the assists she's usually paired with... But I put that mostly on her assists... Unlike Val who I think has the speed mobility to make those assist really good... I guess the way I think of it is kinda like how Chris g matches go against duck... He jumps back and forth calling out pillar and rustling and duck does the same... But eventually Val's speed is to much to out footsie and he gets caught...


TLDR:

I find fortunes neutral kinda suspect..
Cause while the head is a great addition to neutral, it has huge checks and balances by being able to be attacked and taking so much damage, and without the head she just seems like she needs to make her assists do all the work.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, I do think she has the potential to be highest... But I haven't seen even one player use her at that level yet imho... Closest to the strategy I'm looking for being taluda.

Good talk ;)
 
ragnorok64 said:
I don't think "impractical" fits in that context.

Here's the thing, potential assists aren't the character's assets. A character's normals, specials, movement options, and gameplay qualities are their assets. If a weak character is paired with a very complimentary it doesn't suddenly make them a better character they're just a weak character with a good assist. The resulting team may be greater than the sum of its parts, but once one character is isolated the strengths of the character are what come to play. Hence why I believe lists should be based on characters, not teams.



How aren't assists not assets that don't determine a certain amount of value of the character? You really don't think filias ability to supply any team with an updike and a dhc that leads to a full combo and ideal positioning doesnt make her a better character at face value?


Or take valentine as an example. She is complete butts solo, but is generally considered quite good with an assist that makes up for her short comings.

The complete dynamic of neutral, meter usage, mixups, offense, defense, etc change with these tools. Why ignore half the tools in the tool box? Why ignore cat heads/hatred install DHC?


Separate note,

Where do people consider Peacock when thinking about her DHC/assist synergy? I am pretty unfamiliar with her tools in that regard, so wondering what people think.
 
Peacocks dhc synergy... Going into her argus is one of the better ones in the game imho cause its a fullscreen beam... It's hard to go wrong with that. And it also sets her up at her ideal range which is fullscreen. After that she has lenny dhc which can be made safe in a few ways. Her st.hp assist is slightly above midtier for assist in my mind... It gives a long range assist that beats out other long range assist if timed right or can allow for point characters to get in, and its also a great lockdown from upclose.

It's weaknesses are its slow fireball startup, and lack of any real priority plus the fireball is the perfect speed and height to make it lackluster. It goes pretty fast once it gets going... I. Contrast to its slow startup... Which means the screen isn't affected for that long a period of time. And it's low enough to not matter much in footsie wars that take place almost entirely in the air.

Her other assists are also good but in general suffer from the same type of thing... To the point that st.hp becomes the clear winner to me because of its lockdown properties.

However I kinda think this is most cause I don't like peacock at second or anchor that much anymore:

Second she isn't that much worse to the first incoming mixup than other characters, but its the subsequent mixups that kill her more than other characters.

And I also think her point game is gimped cause of the lack of meter built now... She's hard for me to place now. And it's pretty much all because of that meter gain.

Those are my thoughts anyways. Could be wrong.
 
I used to have HP SoiD assist on peacock because it was nice to be able to pester the opponent from anywhere on screen. I've mostly been using s.HP now because its a nice mini lockdown while providing a projectile.

She can only DHC in a few specific supers midscreen, but most things tend to work in the corner. You can DHC into Big Lenny off a few supers and combo into it which is kind of nice. You can generally DHC into Argus from just about any super.
 
She has dope assist synergy with Argus and Lenny, you can get sexy setups and orgasmic damage with it. So thats cute.

S.HP as an assist is a sleeper hit bruh bruh. 2 hits of lockdown, the 2nd hit is a fast projectile and it gives a lot of block stun.

Also it gives her what could be the best alpha counter in the game.

Alpha counter into S.HP cancel that immediately into LP or MP bang reversal? Thats SILLY as fuck.
 
LP Bang is kinda eh. It's only grab invincible and the opponent can shake out of the stagger before peacock can even do anything.
 
GirlyStyle said:
How aren't assists not assets that don't determine a certain amount of value of the character? You really don't think filias ability to supply any team with an updike and a dhc that leads to a full combo and ideal positioning doesnt make her a better character at face value?


Or take valentine as an example. She is complete butts solo, but is generally considered quite good with an assist that makes up for her short comings.

The complete dynamic of neutral, meter usage, mixups, offense, defense, etc change with these tools. Why ignore half the tools in the tool box? Why ignore cat heads/hatred install DHC?

I think the argument is that in a 1v1 comparison, it is easiest to talk directly about a characters strengths and weaknesses. You don't need to add in assists because it is implied. For example,f a character has a difficult time locking down an opponent, then it stands to reason that a lockdown assist will make them better,

The problem with +assist comparisons (or other more specific comparisons) is that you have to explicate precisely what it is that you are ranking. No doubt the list of who builds meter fastest is different than the list of highest damage or best neutral, etc. You can look back through this thread and see that it has devolved into meaninglessness because of a lack of specific parameters.

I think the value of ranked lists is pretty dubious, but this is worse than usual. How can we rank Valentine for example when we have to factor in 1v1 (which is a valid way to play despite some resistance to it), 1v2, 1v3, 2v1, etc... taking into account their position in a team, that leads to 12 (is my math right?) distinct considerations... per character.

Considering 1v1, while incomplete, is just more efficient.
 
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RemiKz said:
LP Bang is kinda eh. It's only grab invincible and the opponent can shake out of the stagger before peacock can even do anything.

Doesn't MP do something cute doe?
 
@Spencer
It's about OPTIMAL teams... Val solo isn't optimal and therefor isn't ranked.

And the same goes for everything else. Why would we bother to rank shit that is obviously bad... Like painwheel and val both with st.lk assists? Lol.. We wouldn't, we have to rank things according to what is actually seen and what is actually good. This devolves into the best of everything. Val's best team painwheels best team etc etc etc and can even go into a specific character best place on a team... Ie squigly second...
 
Dime_x said:
@Spencer
It's about OPTIMAL teams... Val solo isn't optimal and therefor isn't ranked.

And the same goes for everything else. Why would we bother to rank shit that is obviously bad... Like painwheel and val both with st.lk assists? Lol.. We wouldn't, we have to rank things according to what is actually seen and what is actually good. This devolves into the best of everything. Val's best team painwheels best team etc etc etc and can even go into a specific character best place on a team... Ie squigly second...

But it doesn't work like that. There are plenty of solo Val players... some of whom are pretty damn good. Skyking holds his own against the best players in the game as a solo PW.

Moreover, it gets super subjective. Maybe I think Peacock point on a team of three is the way to play her... by rating her that way, I potentially ignore Doublecock (by ranking based on a team of three) or ignore the people who think Peacock is best at the third position.

1v1 comparisons are incomplete (like I said above), but they are ultimately more inclusive and I think less subjective.
 
Discussions about optimizing characters would be a general Team Building/Comparison thread. In a tier list thread I expect the characters to be ranked by tiers according to their individual worth. A tier list is supposed to be a quick reference, as far as I know. Something I can look at and immediately recognize that character A is (generally considered) better than character B. If your tier list has to have a ton of additional rationalizations and special considerations build into it, it's no longer a quick reference.
 
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We should stop having so many threads and just have one big metagame discussion thread.

But don't mind me that idea is probably stupid as fuuuuck.
 
ragnorok64 said:
If your tier list has to have a ton of additional rationalizations and special considerations build into it, it's no longer a quick reference.
And a 1v1 tier list is a quick reference?
A 1v1 tier list is completely fucking useless.

If you are at a level where you don't know what assist which character functions with,
you really shouldn't bother with tiers in the first place.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
And a 1v1 tier list is a quick reference?
A 1v1 tier list is completely fucking useless.

If you are at a level where you don't know what assist which character functions with,
you really shouldn't bother with tiers in the first place.

Like I said earlier, I think tier lists in general are mostly useless for this reason exactly.

They have marginal benefit for a newer player and almost no benefit for even an average player.

Bella gives me fits, more so than Filia does. Does it mean anything to me that your tier list (even if it is objectively right) ranks Filia higher? Nope. It in no way changes the MU for me, and I will continue having problems with her.

A tier list is a mostly intellectually bankrupt way to try and sum up (poorly) what a well written guide makes clear.
 
IsaVulpes said:
And a 1v1 tier list is a quick reference?
A 1v1 tier list is completely fucking useless.

If you are at a level where you don't know what assist which character functions with,
you really shouldn't bother with tiers in the first place.
Why should a tier list require knowledge of optimal assists for each character to be understood? Then you've definitely lost any worth it has as a quick reference.

Unless you make it a habit to always get killed via happy birthday in near any match someone is going to be left with one character vs 1,2 or 3 opponents. A tier list based on the strengths and merits of characters on an individual basis is going to easily tell me that I want to have Ms. Fortune as the last character standing on my team as opposed to Squigly.

For example, if it's found that Squigly, coupled with a certain assist makes up for a huge chunk of her weaknesses then great! We've now identified a strong team but we haven't retroactively suddenly made Squigly a better character. Because if that assist character gets snapped in and killed off you're still left with the same Squigly with all her weaknesses vs 1,2, or 3 opponents. If you sub out Squigly for Ms. Fortune in that same situation, you suddenly have better matchups vs all your opponent's characters and thus have a better chance of clawing your way to a victory. Why? Because you're using a higher tier character, a character with more tools and fewer weaknesses. That's what I'm expecting a tier list to tell me at a glance. Namely, What character has the best balance of offensive tools, defensive options, and lack of weaknesses.
 
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GirlyStyle said:
uggghhh you don't understand how it wooorrrkksss

I suggest we ignore them.. Not in the ignore all posts sense, but in the "in this thread" sense... I mean if one of there big points is that tier lists are worthless... Why post in here? They certainly ain't about to change my mind or anyone else's so I can only look at it as unintentional trolling.

Or, something I doubt anyone would agree on: make a state of the game tier list that is supposed to reflect the current state of the game.... Ie what is winning and what is popular. Along with a separate "potential of this character" tier list.

That's about as close as I could find to appease these guys since they want a 1v1 tier list, let it be the potential tier list... Cause solo is all potential at this point anyways and all theory fighter with little to no representative information from tourneys at least... Except that they as a general rule don't win tourneys nor get very high in them.
 
Dime_x said:
I suggest we ignore them.. Not in the ignore all posts sense, but in the "in this thread" sense... I mean if one of there big points is that tier lists are worthless... Why post in here? They certainly ain't about to change my mind or anyone else's so I can only look at it as unintentional trolling.

Or, something I doubt anyone would agree on: make a state of the game tier list that is supposed to reflect the current state of the game.... Ie what is winning and what is popular. Along with a separate "potential of this character" tier list.

That's about as close as I could find to appease these guys since they want a 1v1 tier list, let it be the potential tier list... Cause solo is all potential at this point anyways and all theory fighter with little to no representative information from tourneys at least... Except that they as a general rule don't win tourneys nor get very high in them.
Did you seriously just accuse those voicing an opposing view on this subject as trolling ("unintentionally" or not)?
 
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ragnorok64 said:
Did you seriously just accuse those voicing an opposing view on this subject as trolling ("unintentionally" or not)?

I did.

Because this isn't the "should we have a tier list thread" or the "should we tier individual characters or teams thread"

this is the tier list thread.

We need to go back to tiering, not arguing about how we should tier. Which means tier however you want to. As long as we stop this stupid argument about how to tier which is off topic and spinning our wheels getting us nowhere.

-edit

Also, you seem to be more concerned with voicing your opinion than actual tiering... Pls go to the appropriate thread to do that:

General discussion. I will go run and get a mod if I have to, this argument has sidetracked the purpose of this thread long enough and we are already going in circles.
 
Dime_x said:
I did.

Because this isn't the "should we have a tier list thread" or the "should we tier individual characters or teams thread"

this is the tier list thread.

We need to go back to tiering, not arguing about how we should tier. Which means tier however you want to. As long as we stop this stupid argument about how to tier which is off topic and spinning our wheels getting us nowhere.

-edit

Also, you seem to be more concerned with voicing your opinion than actual tiering... Pls go to the appropriate thread to do that:

General discussion. I will go run and get a mod if I have to, this argument has sidetracked the purpose of this thread long enough and we are already going in circles.
I'm seriously trying to wrap my head around your reasoning here. Trying to clarify how the list part of a tier list thread should work, for ease of understanding, is off topic and trolling?

If the purpose of a thread is to take character strengths and weaknesses compared to other characters and boil them down into a list then discussion about how to present that information in the form of that list is an intrinsic part of the discussion. If you do tons research yet present your information in a way that isn't readily understandable then you've defeated the purpose of sharing the information.
 
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Spencer said:
Which is?
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Marvel_vs_Capcom_2/Tiers

Take into account each character's strengths and weaknesses, assume they are in the optimal spot(s) on a team (like how Strider needs Doom assist but the fact that he relies on it so heavily is a major weakness), assume that they're on a team in the first place (I think we can all agree that 1v1 is not the highest level of play, and tier lists try to describe the highest level of play), yada yada. Honestly... with how tournament turnout is, we can't really do much to completely (completely) avoid theorycrafting since we don't really have many tournament results worth looking at (but at least we have GGPO :D). Just understand that if we finally do manage to come up with a tier list, it's not going to be perfect. If you want to take from the Marvel 2 example and list the top teams, then go ahead with that in another thread. Listing top assists? Same thing.

But yeah, seriously, less debate on how to make a tier list and more actual discussion of the characters. That'd be nice. On that note, I think it'd be cool to keep talking about the characters that people have the most issue coming up with a placing for (Fortune, Peacock). Ultimately, making an actual tier list doesn't do much for us but... hey, it's not like we're really discussing anything else important on these forums.
 
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Why is it every time we try to talk about a tier list people get all up in arms and start arguing semantics?

Just say which characters you think are the best and worst, and why. It's really not that difficult.
 
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this game is balanced enough to the point where this kind of discussion is pretty much unnecessary imo, every charcater has its uses in one team combo or another.
 
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