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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

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dekillsage said:
why




Defense as in their reversal options? Because pillar is not a good reversal. You just jump over parasoul and look at her whiff pillar and get a full CH punish. Wouldn't call her a glass cannon at all :\




I've recently started doing stuff like this, though I do need to put it into practice more. Atm I'm still getting hit because I don't get to the spot I wanted to be in fast enough to throw her or w/e





You cant punish axe with throw unless your opponent commits to the axe on the ground. Otherwise you have to let sek go, because the risk of getting hit by axe because you staggered it by a bit is not worth the damage you get off throw when you're gonna die for it. The window to get the universal punish should not be so small imo.

Also one of the more bad defenses in the game?
Squigly without charge, Peacock, Double, Valentine, and Fukua all have bad defense too. Its not a unique trait that magically makes it so that your j.mk from half screen away is a fair move when it puts me into 10 million years of blockstun in the retail version. Boy, I sure do wish double could do that.

And Filia does have faster mix ups, that's fine. But I can actually challenge Filia's pressure, and if I read her mix ups and pushblock her away she's OUT. She's not in oh I'd better just j.mk and go back in again and if it hits well then shit time to get a full combo off it. You can barely challenge the move most of the time, best chance is the Eliza player going in and running into a dp assist. Oh hey, Fukua's J.hk does the same thing! But I don't get to use that move from, once again, half the screen away.
I already know J.MK is BS don't worry about that lol
But with the Sekmet thats what makes her and Eliza so dangerous. Their staggers in pressure are amazing and thats how I feel is how she was meant to be designed which would be to stagger. Its how she gets good damage.
 
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dekillsage said:
Defense as in their reversal options? Because pillar is not a good reversal. You just jump over parasoul and look at her whiff pillar and get a full CH punish. Wouldn't call her a glass cannon at all :\
Not every character is small enough to get into the dead zone above Pillar... check your privilege...
 
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mcpeanuts said:
Not every character is small enough to get into the dead zone above Pillar... check your privilege...

You right! You can still just block it in the air and punish or
dare I say it....
Parry it
images
 
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dekillsage said:
That's fine. Just, make it so that if you commit to something stupid I can reliably punish it better. Atm the risk/reward is skewed in a dumb way, but that's just my opinion.
again thats why her staggers are really good. The risk is that I stagger, but if I do happen to stagger, and you do block, its a free grab. IF I don't tagger and you grab me anyway then I get bopped. Its a 50/50 on both ends. I just get more damage.
 
SonicFox5000 said:
again thats why her staggers are really good. The risk is that I stagger, but if I do happen to stagger, and you do block, its a free grab. IF I don't tagger and you grab me anyway then I get bopped. Its a 50/50 on both ends. I just get more damage.
Theoretically a free grab. In practice it's a difficult punish. That's the thing people have an issue with.
 
The difference in damage is like me getting like 4k and you getting like 9k. why
 
mcpeanuts said:
How come I have to fleek with punishes but you don't need any fleek to AXE! YOUR HEAD!
how come you can take half my life with 1 mashed super :(
 
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But you see if he does that super and you block it you get a 9-10k free punish!

Edit: Also in the beta version the fact that its post flash blockable if he has undizzy makes it especially easy to not get hit by reversal SSJ.
 
dekillsage said:
But you see if he does that super and you block it you get a 9-10k free punish!

Not before it almost kills your assist that you stupidly called in between block strings because let's face it... BB is always mashing.
 
dekillsage said:
But you see if he does that super and you block it you get a 9-10k free punish!

Edit: Also in the beta version the fact that its post flash blockable if he has undizzy makes it especially easy to not get hit by reversal SSJ.
nah I need a yolo Air sekmet axe for a punish like that
 
Oh my god you nerds calm down already
 
dekillsage said:
Defense as in their reversal options? Because pillar is not a good reversal. You just jump over parasoul and look at her whiff pillar and get a full CH punish. Wouldn't call her a glass cannon at all :\

[..]

Also one of the more bad defenses in the game?
Squigly without charge, Peacock, Double, Valentine, and Fukua all have bad defense too.
I am fully aware that Pillar is not a good reversal; it has a deadzone (especially annoying when cornered), needs downcharge, one usually doesn't get anything out of it, and the lack of horizontal coverage makes it a lousy PBGC option.

However, it is still a move that hits the air, defends against some crossups, and is fully invulnerable from frame1 (and into the active frames).

Liza's DP doesn't hit the air and is throw vulnerable. None of her lvl1 supers got invulnerable startup either, nor does she have access to "bonus tricks" (such as Valentine's backdash dodging low/throw mixups); all the while being designed around going in on the opponent (unlike Peacock - who got a similarly screwy defence, but whose gameplan is to not let the opponent get into the spot where her reversal options matter in the first place).

I truly believe Eliza to have the worst defence in the cast, and that to be a viable balancing tool vs Filia - who got notably worse neutral, but access to Updo, Fenrir, and Gregor.

dragonos451 said:
Please elaborate, I feel like I missed something there
Is this a "Haha I'm solo, I don't know what assists are" kinda joke?
What are you doing against a Sekhmet pressing jM sH on your assist (if you aren't like Squigly and able to Silver Chord from halfscreen)?
 
zeknife said:
I have fun fighting sekhmet, but I guess that's because every character i play has hitgrabs and other effective options (Big Band with taunt is the best though)

I imagine painwheel vs sekhmet could be fun as well if the painwheel player knows what they're doing and is feeling confident


Keep in mind Sekhmet is slowed by getting hit, so if you have something multihitting you can effectively lock her down and grab/snap while she's stuck. Big bands sound stun moves seem to have an amplified effect as well, so maybe beat extend assist could buy time to go for something?
Every time i think "hey it's sekh i'm gonna buer this little shit for free" i get got because most buers are too narrow to actually catch sekh. I generally have to find a thresher if i want anything which is... not ideal and rarely available to me given eliza's air game and control in that matchup. Servants > nails, air normals are stupid, PW just never has meter.

Spend most of my time flying/unflying to just burn their meter and chicken/unfly guard as much as possible, then focus on calling horizontal assist when sekh returns to the main body so she doesn't have time to cover half the screen in hitbox before I get there.
 
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dekillsage said:
I'm not a nerd I'm a super cool kid
tumblr_inline_n6g3lsqMbb1rl5ma0.png
I can confirm this
"my future is so bright that I need shades" -Dekillsage 2014
 
IsaVulpes said:
It's not even theoretically a free grab.
For most characters, 90% of the possible ranges Axe can hit you from are plain out of throw range.
What if she had a hurtbox on the axe itself?
 
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IsaVulpes said:
It's not even theoretically a free grab.
For most characters, 90% of the possible ranges Axe can hit you from are plain out of throw range.
It's true I saw Negus testing this in the lab.

mcpeanuts said:
What if she had a hurtbox on the axe itself?
Throws don't work like that.
Grabs use a specific hitbox that's centered around the middle of the character. (The blue one in training mode > Hitboxes > Advanced I think)
Hit-grabs though, can target extended hurtboxes. (LK-Buer)

[Grabbing Squigly jHP with Thresher LMAO]
 
Skarmand said:
Throws don't work like that.
Grabs use a specific hitbox that's centered around the middle of the character. (The blue one in training mode > Hitboxes > Advanced I think)
Hit-grabs though, can target extended hurtboxes. (LK-Buer)

[Grabbing Squigly jHP with Thresher LMAO]
Oh, I see. Is there any way to move the, uh, grab box? on Sekhmet after the axe?
 
mcpeanuts said:
Oh, I see. Is there any way to move the, uh, grab box? on Sekhmet after the axe?
I can't imagine it's not. The real question is if Mike is willing to change it.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Oh, I see. Is there any way to move the, uh, grab box? on Sekhmet after the axe?
The throw would actually make contact with them after the Axe is withdraw back into Sekhmet because of the animation.
I think there's a better elegant solution out there.
 
The moment you realize sekhmet is just a crappy version of Hsien ko's dark force.

*outside of combo uses
 
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There are ways to solve this, the easiest / least janky (one could eg move the throwable box forward, but then you'd clearly whiff a throw and suddenly Sekhmet teleports forward into your arms) would be Axe pulling in the opponent on block (similar to how Cerecopter works).

I don't know whether it would have desirable effects, though.. The one "smart" thing other than timing assistcalls that Sekh currently does / have to do is spacing Axe properly; if you take that away it's going to be even more boring to fight/play the thing.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
There are ways to solve this, the easiest / least janky (one could eg move the throwable box forward, but then you'd clearly whiff a throw and suddenly Sekhmet teleports forward into your arms) would be Axe pulling in the opponent on block (similar to how Cerecopter works).

I don't know whether it would have desirable effects, though.. The one "smart" thing other than timing assistcalls that Sekh currently does / have to do is spacing Axe properly; if you take that away it's going to be even more boring to fight the thing.
Maybe it pulls them in a bit, but not so much that there's no safe spacing for the axe? You said earlier "90% of the possible ranges Axe can hit you from are plain out of throw range"; what if it was more like, idk, 30%?
 
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IsaVulpes said:
I truly believe Eliza to have the worst defence in the cast, and that to be a viable balancing tool vs Filia - who got notably worse neutral, but access to Updo, Fenrir, and Gregor.

I think Fukua, Squigly (some of the time), Painwheel, and Valentine are all in the same ballpark at best.
 
Fukua has throw vulnerable Drill (gets you out of the corner v jumps, can be made safeish with Fireball) + BFF fully invuln from f1 Super + as extra options two air supers with some count of vuln startup frames (AirDrill 4f; Kiss 7f, but it's safe on block) and AADrill-Super with 4f vuln startup

Painwheel has the best air super in the game + DCrawl fully invuln from f1 Super + as extra options Hatred Guard business (and Install for 2 bars as a thing)

Valentine has fully invuln from f1 ground&air supers + 2f vuln startup air super that's safe on block + as extra options throw vuln but complete protection against hits for 2 bars & backdash avoiding throws and likely dodging lows

Squigly has fully invuln from f1 lvl1 super that can be avoided postflash by a few characters and is shaky vs air + the best dp in the game with punch charge
E: Addendum by zeknife: Also access to SBO, which is useful sometimes (again fully invuln from f1), especially with a DHC

Eliza has a throw vuln move that gets you killed vs air attacks and that's it (okay, for completeness sake: she also got an air super with 6 vuln startup frames).
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Is this a "Haha I'm solo, I don't know what assists are" kinda joke?
No, sorry I'm not smart enough to discuss about important stuff. At least not enough to use irony while doing so. And I probably used that word wrong because I suck that hard and it should have been another word. Please don't kill me, I plan to do it myself.
IsaVulpes said:
What are you doing against a Sekhmet pressing jM sH on your assist (if you aren't like Squigly and able to Silver Chord from halfscreen)?
pushblock repeatedly until Sekh is out of range? I tried doing in training mode calling brass at full screen and then asking solo sekh to do j.M H repeatedly, I would then dash in, block and pushblock. One pushblock was enough, assist was out of reach and still alive. Gives you more chance to save your assist than calling it against a solo bella with 3 bars, I believe.
What if they use a multi hit assist to avoid you pushblocking too efficiently? Oh wait, that means they are using a team, so you've got time to save your assist. Wait for the end of the assist and pushblock.

And armor, super or not, gets beaten by all hitgrabs, so painwheel, cerebella, squigly, headless fortune, val (!), beta double (?) can do stuff against sekh beating up your assist. BB can parry and has a good enough grab to catch sekh from whatever range. Para is fucked, except if bike can be timed so it hits sekh without sekh breaking it. Or maybe shooting tears slows sekh down enough to stop the death machine. I don't know. There seems to be stuff you can do.

Again, solo speaking, sorry I don't know what I'm talking about I shouldn't even try k thx bye cya fly away from thread open FTL jump to a far far galaxy shoot self.
 
About Eliza , Alpha Countering into her Sekmet moves seems really dumb
 
PandaGirlBingo said:
About Eliza , Alpha Countering into her Sekmet moves seems really dumb
Dumb good or dumb bad?

Because they will almost always get hit out of startup because the super armor doesn't kick in until after sekhmet is out.
 
Yeah, you just input a super on reaction to the AC flash.
It's no Lock N Load H AC.
 
zeknife said:
Keep in mind Sekhmet is slowed by getting hit, so if you have something multihitting you can effectively lock her down and grab/snap while she's stuck.


I have no clue you could throw her while she was being hit . Thanks !
 
PandaGirlBingo said:
I have no clue you could throw her while she was being hit . Thanks !
The only rule is you can't throw someone who is in hitstun. If your attack hits armor, you didn't put them into hitstun, so they're still vulnerable to throws. This is true for all armor in the game, not just Sekhmet. You can for example do shit like super cancel Cerecopter into Showstopper while the Cerecopter is hitting Fukua's Inevitable Snuggle.
 
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maybe I should have said it earlier but I can still ToD 1v3 for 2 bars without counter hit, with c.lk c.mp c.hp/s.hp starter.
Can ToD every light from anywhere on the screen.
ToD on mediums and heavies are still getting studied, and I may not find a way to kill from any point of the screen, but I'm just gonna say that the now universal kanchou combo is still a ToD.
Didn't talk about it earlier, I wanted to do a vid about it, but I got lazy.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Sekhmet bar post.
I'm not very keen on the idea of Sekhmet getting locked for being used in combos, but I love the idea of that happening if the opponent forces Sekhmet back to Eliza. I also completely agree with the points you make about Sekhmet being boring.

I'd love if you had a bit more incentive to keep Sekhmet out and if the opponent had more ways to force her back into Eliza. But I don't really know how that would be possible without requiring new attacks so she actually has some sort of mixup.
Looking at framedata, only Filia, Fukua and Fortune could kinda sorta challenge Sekhmet's normals with their sweeps. But I don't know how else it would be interesting to make Sekhmet return to Eliza.

I don't like the idea of making j.M more negative. But making s.H easier to punish and making it drag the opponent a bit sounds cool. You can still be safe from a certain distance but it's less trivial to do so. Also she definitely shouldn't be able to tech.
I think her cost is a bit low for the damage she causes (if she begins with j.M she can get about two lv 3s worth of damage with 2 meters). But if she costed more meter on block I think she'll lose a bit too much. Can we have different meter loss on hit and on block?
Edit: I actually kind of changed my mind about this point. She might deal two lv 3s worth of damage but she also adds a lot of Drama in the process.

dragonos451 said:
And armor, super or not, gets beaten by all hitgrabs, so painwheel, cerebella, squigly, headless fortune, val (!), beta double (?) can do stuff against sekh beating up your assist.
Are you talking about Val's lv 3? Because Sekh can just jump out of EKG.
 
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Ryin said:
Are you talking about Val's lv 3? Because Sekh can just jump out of EKG.
Was talking about the command grab. Fast enough to be used as a punish if sekhmet is being very predictable (eg mashing an assist).
But that's a stupid idea, that's why there's a (!).
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Fukua has throw vulnerable Drill (gets you out of the corner v jumps, can be made safeish with Fireball) + BFF fully invuln from f1 Super + as extra options two air supers with some count of vuln startup frames (AirDrill 4f; Kiss 7f, but it's safe on block) and AADrill-Super with 4f vuln startup

Painwheel has the best air super in the game + DCrawl fully invuln from f1 Super + as extra options Hatred Guard business (and Install for 2 bars as a thing)

Valentine has fully invuln from f1 ground&air supers + 2f vuln startup air super that's safe on block + as extra options throw vuln but complete protection against hits for 2 bars & backdash avoiding throws and likely dodging lows

Squigly has fully invuln from f1 lvl1 super that can be avoided postflash by a few characters and is shaky vs air + the best dp in the game with punch charge
E: Addendum by zeknife: Also access to SBO, which is useful sometimes (again fully invuln from f1), especially with a DHC

Eliza has a throw vuln move that gets you killed vs air attacks and that's it (okay, for completeness sake: she also got an air super with 6 vuln startup frames).

I still think that we are speaking in relative terms. None of those listed have great options. They are niche (PWs amazing air reversal works pointblank only otherwise it is as punishable as anything else, Squigly's DP requires charge and as such isn't always available, Fukua is pretty prone to throw reversals).

Eliza does have reversal options, just not one reversal option that beats out everything. Is her defense shitty? Yes. Is she in good company? Yes. In any case, I'm not arguing with you, I was just pointing that there is a wide gap between the good defense and the bad defense in this game with very little middle ground.

Also, more generally what PWs are reliably using DC as a reversal option? Thresher is godly. DC gets you killed.
 
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