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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

It was just a little more tacked on damage for one bar, with no possibility of continuing without spending more bars or being in the corner. It was difficult but somehow satisfying that you had the choice to go for damage or the knockdown.

Obviously being able to combo from it is much stronger, but if she did she would be, well........ Filia.
 
the fact that someone could even begin to believe that hard knockdown > combo boggles my mind. it's like why would you want to grab someone into a hard knockdown into a mixup when you could just skip the mixup part and do the combo? even if it doesn't work on the entire cast i'd much rather have that than the hard knockdown and let it be a weight specific thing
 
1) You did not test every possible continuation in the little time you had. Was the downward Drill Super even in yet?
2) Even IF solo conversions don't work, several assist conversions WILL. Throw xx L.ADart+M.Butt probably works/worked on everyone, because M.Butt always works.
3) "No Combo on 4 Chars" is better than "No Combo on 12 chars", untechable KD or not.
 
because throws scale the crap out of combos and if you are confident in your mixup and confirm it you can get a full unscaled combo. also not every character can/should be able to do everything. like whoever earlier was complaining because fukua's command grab was no longer going to be as good as cerebella's. i mean really. you are mad that your character doesnt have a throw game as good as the grappler character?

whichever one is better, does it being better automatically mean she should have it?
 
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evilben said:
like whoever earlier was complaining because fukua's command grab was no longer going to be as good as cerebella's. i mean really. you are mad that your character doesnt have a throw game as good as the grappler character?
That would be me. And even if it stayed at 4f, it still would not be as good as Bella's Diamond Drop. So that's not really a reason to nerf it per se, because it can't even be used as a reversal.

Mike explained she didn't want her to have an untechable throw that was faster than her repeatable lights and I said nothing more. He probably saw Inuchiyo catch seventy people with lights into command throw. Myself included.

Still seems odd that a character that was taken from a base of a grappler Filia isn't really treated such.

Edit: not saying this should happen.
 
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The thing is 4f vs. 8f doesn't matter much at all for tick throws, since you're cancelling out of something that puts them in enough block/hitstun that you have to delay even the 8 frame version. The only specific thing Mike said is that H Drill on hit sets up a 1-frame throw reset for her with the 4 frame version that he didn't like IIRC. Might have just gotten caught in Mike trying to make H drills weaker. Other than that case it mostly changes a few things defensively where you could do stuff like beat Double's standard fast fall mixup or any other slight frame advantage frametrap-low/throw.

As far as the air throw it's not like the Skullgirls engine is hurting for reset tools such that you need a hard knockdown to get one. The option of a combo or a reset is obviously better than just a reset. And hard knockdown resets are boring and rote, while the regular reset game is... not as boring or rote.
 
The 8f startup allows her to cancel into command grab on hit or block without worry of still being in hitstun off some normals. That is good/great imo.
 
Mr. X said:
The 8f startup allows her to cancel into command grab on hit or block without worry of still being in hitstun off some normals. That is good/great imo.
It's only an advantage if you suck and can't time your things. So it's not an advantage. Is this SERIOUSLY a 'debate'?

"15f jabs are better than 3f jabs because you have more time to plan your next move"?
 
guitalex2007 said:
The problem I've always had with Fukua is that her ground game is great but her air game is j.HK. If anyone chicken blocked and properly push blocked she could not do anything but air throw to set up her ground game again, but for a properly timed throw, she gets nothing but the chance to do a mixup.

Being able to super from it was neat. It also didn't work against everyone (air super Drill would, though, but again outside of corner or DHC she can't continue, same as current retail throw into super).

She has air fireballs and Filia's 10f startup j.HP and a good crossup hitbox on j.MK.
 
IsaVulpes said:
1) You did not test every possible continuation in the little time you had. Was the downward Drill Super even in yet?
2) Even IF solo conversions don't work, several assist conversions WILL. Throw xx L.ADart+M.Butt probably works/worked on everyone, because M.Butt always works.
3) "No Combo on 4 Chars" is better than "No Combo on 12 chars", untechable KD or not.

you Think i didn't have time to test.

the downward drill wasn't in yet(plus why would you ever suggest that move.... please give a reason for midscreen otherwise you wasted 2 meters for like........god knows what man.) . and when it got implemented....(?) the untech throw was gone.
and to answer number two
I DO NOT USE DOUBLE you can use copter you can use hairball. MAYBE fiber but like why?
3) of course it is. i'm just more for the risk/reward.

NEVERTHELESS if we want combo'able throw we'd have to trade again and at this point i'd rather not trade the AIR m fireball or anything else.
 
For reference, during the 7/24 patch you *could* still cancel into super, but only by doing so after having canceled into a special (QCF+LP+LK+MK/MP), which is why special canceling got removed this patch. I only got to try it against 2 characters, and while it worked well on the gigantic hurtboxes of Eliza the 10 frames of startup let Filia/Fukua fall too far to catch before they hit the floor anyways, at which point yer doing 300 less damage than just Blown Kiss with no followup, corner or not.
 
IsaVulpes said:
It's only an advantage if you suck and can't time your things. So it's not an advantage. Is this SERIOUSLY a 'debate'?

"15f jabs are better than 3f jabs because you have more time to plan your next move"?
If it hits you would have to confirm that it hit/block and then delay if it hit because hitstun. The 8f start up = hit or block, go straight into command grab. Not sure how "good" this is in the realm of Skullgirls but thinking of the uses it had in 3S, it should have applications in SG that will be good.

It doesn't compare to what she lost but it's not all terrible.

Regardless, I'm wrong because I forgot hit advantage is after recovery.
 
Is the hitstun deteriorating fireballs causing distance specific or character specific combos? Seems like it would.
 
Mr. X said:
Is the hitstun deteriorating fireballs causing distance specific or character specific combos? Seems like it would.
TL;DR if you REALLY want the fireball confirm you must be like.......dead ass range. pretty much like an instant tranmission kamehameha level type of shit.

and even then you get 50%scaled. because the idea of H drill into BFF was stupid to mike. which really wasn't surprising since one fukua player.....LOL well...

however its makes it into a buff somewhat.
 
Mike_Z said:
To continue the off-topic, if that's really what you enjoy then you OWE it to yourself to play MvC2.
You can put both Spiral and Cable on a team with Sentinel drones and it becomes a zoning team good enough to win Evo.



I'm just going to QFT this.

@mcpeanuts
Though I'm sure you probably have me on ignore as well, if you dont... Then here:


What you seem to be talking about is lockdown. Lockdown is available in many oldschool games and has been basically remanded as being a broken/near broken certainly unfun to play against style for newschool games and so lockdown has largely been taken out.

Mike linked spiral, and strider is another lockdown character, streetfighter WW guile is another character that was high on lockdown and venom in the gg series is also a lockdown character... Probably the only new school lockdown character.

If lockdown is indeed what you are looking for then i personally would suggest picking up cerecopter assist... The amount of time you can lockdown someone with copter plus bombs, item drop, copter again, bombs, item drop... Can be insane. There are of course holes... Perfect lockdown no longer exists... But with a team of like peacock, double, bella... The lockdown that peacock can get and that double can get with cats and copter... Is pretty legit.
 
Negus Eyoel said:
the fact that someone could even begin to believe that hard knockdown > combo boggles my mind.
I believe it, and you certainly learn to believe it playing Guilty Gear. A hard knockdown lets you put out a meaty projectile and/or meaty assist, do safe jumps and other safe okizeme setups, and if any of it lands you get a fully unscaled combo, possibly even a counterhit.
Plus, if you were going for an airthrow reset, you generally have undizzy built up, which means any combo you get to do off it is limited by that.
IMO, predictable opponent position and reaction plus safe setup is one of the best things you can have going for you.

PLUS plus, her airthrow scales to 50%.
A super fireball off it does 1141 dmg.
A super fireball does 920 chip and is safe.
A blocked meaty fireball->super fireball does 1120 chip, is confirmable, and is safe.
And since it is off an airthrow it is possible to true-blockstring a meaty air fireball->ground fireball->super fireball, which does 1320 anywhere on the stage and is safe. Adding assist chip in there means you can get safe okizeme, more than 2k in chip for one meter, and a possible unscaled combo if you hit. I'd take that any day.

tl;dr I prefer she have the untechable knockdown for various reasons, so that's what she gets. As demonstrated, it's not a false choice, like whoever know-it-all posted before.

@ whoever was talking about fireball->BFFs
You can do it point-blank and any distance past that, you have about an 8-10f window to cancel after she throws the fireball. It's not hard, it's just not a confirm. It wasn't supposed to be a confirm, it was supposed to let her combo into it from pokes without being able to combo into it from her invincible reversal. Which it does.

guitalex2007 said:
Still seems odd that a character that was taken from a base of a grappler Filia isn't really treated such.
She's got an unreactable command grab and an armored command grab, she can put the opponent in situations where the command grab gives them 1 frame to have jumped, and she has a double safe low which makes the command grab a viable mixup option. That makes her a "grappler Filia". Her grab going from 4f to 8f does not change that, except that she can't do it off drill, which was the reason for the change in the first place.

Dreamepitaph said:
because the idea of H drill into BFF was stupid to mike. which really wasn't surprising since one fukua player.....LOL well...
It has nothing to do with anyone playing her, nor the opinions anyone posts. I have my own mind and my own opinions, and I make my own decisions. That doesn't mean I don't consider input, but my decisions are mine and my reasons are mine.
I design the characters, which means I have a design for them.
I don't want Fukua, as a character, to have a fast, strike-invincible reversal that can be made safe on reaction AND also converted into a full combo. I don't mind comboing into BFFs off random pokes, which is why she can do it from a fireball. I do mind that specific thing, because it is not how I want the character to work.
I WAS going to remove it before putting her into the real game, but I decided to be nice. And just like every other time I've decided to be nice (vanilla IPS, etc) it turned out to be the wrong decision.
And don't try to pass this off as a joke either, you're past that.
 
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I think it's premature to say Fukua's air game is limited to j.HK.

Also, about Mr X's comment that a longer startup can actually be an advantage in some cases. It is true that if you time your cancels accurately you can produce the same situations with a shorter startup, a longer startup can potentially allow for completely reliable cancel timings for really tight tickthrows/frametraps.
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
Fukua Beta Experiments... 'bout time to be done with Fukua, innit?
- Can't cancel her airthrow recovery with specials, either.
- Fukua's fireballs' blockstun is never longer than hitstun would be. Thanks DeathArcana, even though it wasn't what you wanted. :^P
- Fukua's ground fireballs now have longer hitstun; hitstun still deteriorates as they travel, but it is ~8-12f longer than air fireballs.
- Fukua's ground fireball recovery +5f, advantage on hit/block similar to what it was originally because of longer hitstun.
- Fukua is in regular fall after air fireballs again. It was a bit much not to be able to attack or block.
- Fukua's air MP fireball now bounces, it was the only one that didn't.
- Comboing after any of Fukua's regular fireballs scales your damage to 50%. (Thanks FukuamanDS, of all people!)
- BFFs no longer combos off any version of drill, but now combos off ground fireballs instead.

new stuff!

so what did MMDS (fukuamands) do?

I kind of don't like the extra recov on fireballs because it's worse on whiff and she feels slower as a result, but I'll take it if it means I can do fireball > BFF with relative ease.

I don't think the extra scaling on fireballs needs to be there, though.

Everything else I'm fine with.
 
Age said:
I think it's premature to say Fukua's air game is limited to j.HK.
It most definitely is premature to say much at all about the character, as nobody had to bother learning anything about her.

However, she lost her main offensive tool in j.HK xx L.ADart retardation, her main button got tremendously weaker (j.HK hitbox and framedata nerfs), and her main defensive tool in H.Drill xx BFF converts disappeared; alongside various other nerfs (cmd throw, airthrow, abare damage).

What she gained is some damage on fireball and bounce on M.ADart.

That's.. pretty big.

Is the character fine anyway? Shadows are really good, several of her buttons are ..rather nice, her zoning feels strong despite being utterly unexplored, etc whatever.
She's most definitely not "RIP" Tier now, despite the rather long list of nerfs for a character that sucked anyway :~
I still think a j.HP hitbox buff (it's the way it is due to being copied from Filia, but Fukua doesn't have an IAD to really make use of it offensively) and perhaps rebuffed fireball damage ("combos after are scaled, but stray hits are the most damaging fireballs in the game" as an interesting tradeoff) would be nice to have to make her neutral game that notch scarier.

Overall I'm quite happy with how the character panned out now, though.
 
IsaVulpes said:
but Fukua doesn't have an IAD to really make use of it offensively)

I still don't understand why that move is associated so much with IAD pressure. The hitbox so much better suited to coming up at buttons from below.
 
Just so you aren't giving out misinformation, Vulpes, which I didn't expect from you...

IsaVulpes said:
j.HK hitbox and framedata nerfs
- The hitboxes are still the same size.
- Startup/recovery are still the same (recovery is actually 2f shorter).
- It's only active for 1f instead of 3f. But, since there are MAJOR bugs with it on the second 2 active frames, including sometimes going upward and sideways, I don't imagine people were hitting with those frames very often to begin with or there'd be all KIND of crazy videos everywhere. So this change is pretty meaningless. Though I didn't really want to do it so if I can fix it I'll put it back to 3f.
- Her leg is vulnerable a few frames before active, which basically only affects situations in which it would have traded in the past. How often do you remember it trading?

IsaVulpes said:
and her main defensive tool in H.Drill xx BFF converts disappeared
I'm not sure that was her main defensive tool, since she also has zoning, armored grab, and safe LDrill, but whatever.
- HDrill is still strike invincible on startup, still has the same frame data as before.
- Can still convert to untechable knockdown with fireball super.
- Can still convert to a full combo within 3/4 screen of corner with fireball super.
- Can still convert to a full combo for no meter with assists (which I guess people ignore when talking about characters for some reason).

IsaVulpes said:
What she gained is some damage on fireball and bounce on M.ADart.
She gained chip damage on her fireballs, too.
Also a new super. You totally forgot that, which is understandable.
- 4f air super, invincible post-flash and overall much better than air fireball super if you're gonna mash something, plus allows OTGs afterward near the corner and does a hefty chunk of damage even when fully scaled.
 
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Age said:
I still don't understand why that move is associated so much with IAD pressure. The hitbox so much better suited to coming up at buttons from below.
Yes, because a 10f j.Fierce with a hitbox catered to winning air to ground would be super bonkers with a 5f IAD.

So for Filia it is an IAD pressure tool with a bad hitbox (loses if the opponent presses roughly anything on the ground, but is still 10f and 900 damage), as well as space control you can combo out of (jump forward j.HP xx AD j.LP) or at least get significant corner carry + notable damage with (j.HP xx AD j.HP), as well as a way to antiair most common jumps from midrange (opponent jumps, you wait until he has ascended decently high and run your IAD j.HP which will now have a really fucking good hitbox).

For Fukua it's rather notably worse due to the lack of IAD conversions and general lack of speed to place it for Antiairs, Pressure, etc

Mike_Z said:
- Her leg is vulnerable a few frames before active, which basically only affects situations in which it would have traded in the past. How often do you remember it trading?
A bunch, just that it would pretty much guaranteed 'win' the trade due to its high hitstun.
I also keep whiffing j.HK nowadays in scenarios where I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have whiffed before, so I'm rather sure I used to hit with the later active frames. Maybe I'm seeing ghosts~

To clarify, I'm perfectly happy with this!! Please keep it.

- HDrill
I'm not sure what your point really is. She lost H.Drill xx BFF, and that was really fucking strong.
Yeah she can still do <X> which she could do before and which she didn't really do because xx BFF is better.

I mean, it was taken out because you deemed it too good, now trying to state that it wasn't that big of a loss because she can still xx Kiss seems a bit off to me?

Of course it's still a good move, I'm not .. denying that? It got nerfed. I'm okay with it being nerfed, but .. it's still a nerf.

She gained chip damage on her fireballs, too.
Damage :^p

Also a new super. You totally forgot that
Yeah I keep forgetting to list the super~ Not really sure how useful it is yet :P Sorry~

I don't really see where I'm "spreading misinformation" when I say H.Drill xx BFF disappeared (it did), j.HK got worse (it did), and forgot to list the super (which is nice, but no hugely-important-swing like eg a fully invuln startup super would be -- and before I'm misunderstood, I am NOT requesting that to happen)?

P.S. Woofly had the great suggestion that one should be able to cancel Upwards Drill Super into Downwards Drill Super and vice versa, so one can do H.Drill xx Drill Super xx Drill Super xx Drill Super xx Drill Super xx Drill Super and zigzag across the entire stage, can we please have that!! ))
 
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On a more serious / random additional note, Drill Super would be a lot better if it pulled the opponent in like eg L.Beat Extend does; half the time I actually connect with it, it deals 500 damage and the opponent gets flicked away.
Dunno if something like that would have a chance at making it in, but it would be a much much much better Antiair if it did, and worth the bar more often.

Downwards Drill has a similar problem, except even worse - I jump forward, see my opponent whiff Titan Knuckle under me, super it on reaction, and then I just connect 1-2 hits and am at -14f in his face, open to get punished for hitting with my super.
That definitely looks to me like it shouldn't happen :\
 
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Mike_Z said:
It has nothing to do with anyone playing her, nor the opinions anyone posts. I have my own mind and my own opinions, and I make my own decisions. That doesn't mean I don't consider input, but my decisions are mine and my reasons are mine.
I design the characters, which means I have a design for them.
I don't want Fukua, as a character, to have a fast, strike-invincible reversal that can be made safe on reaction AND also converted into a full combo. I don't mind comboing into BFFs off random pokes, which is why she can do it from a fireball. I do mind that specific thing, because it is not how I want the character to work.
I WAS going to remove it before putting her into the real game, but I decided to be nice. And just like every other time I've decided to be nice (vanilla IPS, etc) it turned out to be the wrong decision.
And don't try to pass this off as a joke either, you're past that.
first, i wasn't joking. you wanted the WYL to judge right? i was saying worldjem doing c hp whiff into H drill into BFF seemed ridiculous right? i'm not saying anything about your person. since you explained your thoughts on the BFF. that sounds like worldjem proved a point in the matches.
 
You can also do 2HP > stuff with Filia and Double since they have the same move, but theirs are better since they don't have the extra hurtbox that Fukua does.

If there's one thing I wanted people to take from my matches it's that mindless j.HK > fireball L into easy confirms being gone doesn't make Fukua terrible and unplayable enough for people to consider dropping her.

I wasn't trying to prove any points otherwise.
 
worldjem said:
You can also do 2HP > stuff with Filia and Double since they have the same move, but theirs are better since they don't have the extra hurtbox that Fukua does.

If there's one thing I wanted people to take from my matches it's that mindless j.HK > fireball L into easy confirms being gone doesn't make Fukua terrible and unplayable enough for people to consider dropping her.

I wasn't trying to prove any points otherwise.
I thought that was the case, but the first frame is pretty different (The one you were probably hitting with)
cugzAHl.png

yYTSK3b.png
 
The later frames are worse, though, and if I DIDN'T hit with that frame with Fukua, I'd most likely be trading or losing.

Fukua doesn't get low profile like Filia/Double does after that frame, so Filia/Double have more time to do whatever.
 
Negus Eyoel said:
the fact that someone could even begin to believe that hard knockdown > combo boggles my mind. it's like why would you want to grab someone into a hard knockdown into a mixup when you could just skip the mixup part and do the combo? even if it doesn't work on the entire cast i'd much rather have that than the hard knockdown and let it be a weight specific thing
Because a combo is damage.
A hard knockdown is oki, which is positioning, mixup and conditioning.

Lets say a combo does 70% life.

Lets say I do a short combo (30%) into oki, I now have racked on a little less than half the damage you did, and instead of having to guess which way the opponent is teching and mashing my assist and having to jump, I have a neat and clean set up that could go into the full 70% combo, which would equal 100% damage.

Serious question, have you played any game besides maybe this and Marvel 3?

I'm happy Pink knockdowns are kind of making a comback. I was upset to hear that Mike took out Hard Knockdowns resetting your undizzy bar, I liked the idea of doing a short combo into a reset into a short combo that ended in hard knockdown for a clean set up.

Maybe your combo can't kill and instead of wanting to deal with someone possibly mashing out of your reset, you want real man oki people have to deal with?
 
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How about being able to pick whether you're going to reset a character on the air or the ground depending on whether they're double jumpers/have air reversals/whatever?

Mike ended up comparing the airthrow straight into air fireball super (which is extremely weak without a DHC) to hard knockdown, where an argument the hard knockdown is better is not bad at all and is really only worse when you can get a guaranteed kill with the DHC - when the beta people were talking about gave her big meterless air throw combos for like 5 or 6k and thinking you'd rather have a hard knockdown for a chip setup or something is crazy.
 
If the question is "Do I want to deal 2k damage into Oki, or a 5k damage combo (starts out 50% scaled)", then I can easily see voting for the Oki, because a bunch of safe unseeable 50/50 setups can allow me to actually get 2k+8k from that Oki - I'll take 'guaranteed 2k with the possibility for 10k' over 'guaranteed 5k' pretty much any day.

If the question is "Do I want to deal 2k damage into Oki, or a 5k damage combo *in SG*", then the 'actual' question is "Do I want to deal 2k damage into a safe unseeable mixup, or up to 5k damage with ten different safe unseeable mixup opportunities".
You could land that Airthrow and do something like [xx L.ADart, s.MK c.HP xx M.Shadow], run under, s.HP+DP Assist and have 3.5k damage (instead of the aforementioned 2k) into safe left/right mixup right there .. 1.5k damage "for free", with the additional option to continue the combo and reset at some other point, or to finish the combo if it were to kill.

Combo out of Airthrow is gone tho, and we aren't getting it back (not that I'd want it), so blub~
 
That's basically how i see it... Why go for oki when resets are just as good or even better in many/most circumstances... In sg.

I mean look at it... In marvel an air reset has to contend with being able to tech in either direction. And then trying to crossup that direction somehow... And then having to make that crossup a mixup. By not crossing up. That leaves 4 different ways the opponent can escape simply by teching and blocking... Not good for that attacker at all. BUT, in sg, there is no tech. So resets are way way more powerful. In fact resets are way more powerful than oki in sg. You cant crossunder during oki, and worse yet, your opponent knows EXACTLY when they will recover... Whereas with an sg reset you kinda dont know when the reset is coming except as a read and that can always be mixed up.


So yeah, oki as a concept seems like something cool to do. But numbers wise it just seems to fail to resets. And I'm not saying that oki is never good to go for... On the contrary, it can be cpvery good to go for if your opponent isnt used to dealing with your oki scenario, but on the whole resets are just better.

Also, cant use burst baits against a waking opponent...
 
is eliza's s.mp a good anti-air normal? I'm still experimenting with her and haven't had enough chances to test it. Squigly's s.mp is a good anti-air normal, as is Parasoul's c.mp. I've seen plenty of Fukua and Filias use s.hp.
 
That big hitbox behind the scorpion tail on Fukua's c.HP makes it immensely better against Filia IADs than the Double/Filia versions. At The Official Filia Murder Range where she can mixup IAD and a short dash cancel into low the Double/Filia c.HP will whiff past her IAD most of the time.

Edit - and as another comparison, Fukua's low launch c.MP is four frames faster than Filia's, 9 vs. 13, same disjoint hitbox, for at least the first active frame unlike Filia she has no hurtbox on her head at all, and chaining into c.HP always gives you a long bounce OTG you can confirm even if you whiff an MP fireball cancelled off the c.HP/c.MP...
 
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I like BB being able to block after parry. I don't think it will be too good as it is only used once in a blue moon now since it's so risky. I also like the changes to Sekhmet meter usage. I do not agree with Val getting the option of not using a loaded vial, I think she is fine without that buff. But hey what do I know
 
I felt val needed some kind of buff, and this looks like a fair buff for her. We'll see how it plays out though. Yo @Outlaw_Spike since you're the shuriken toss king what do you think about this
 
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