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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Airball is now -9.............welp. Actually I'm kinda happy about this change. Hopefully it will break me of my bad habit to use airball ALOT.
 
Honestly, this change really feels like a way to help out solo characters, mostly.

If I'm playing a team I can reliably call my own assist to force a lockout on my opponent's assist and this change really doesn't impact me much, especially since I run the most obnoxious counter-call in the game, H Brass Knuckles. I think most team vs team matches, the changes won't actually have much impact because if you make a bad assist call your assist is probably going to take damage

But I could see that if you're a solo character or the 2nd man of a 2 man team, hitting the assist isn't always an option because you're at serious risk of getting punished by the point character.

Edit - TBH, the high risk of punishing an assist call for a Solo character is something that applies to all assists, not just invincible ones so I'm not sure if I'm on board with this change.
 
WingZero said:
Airball is now -9.............welp. EDIT: Actually I'm kinda happy about this change. Hopefully it will break me of my bad habit to use airball ALOT.
Wow you can't edit like that, I was busy making fun of you and then you sneak these sentences in
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Wow you can't edit like that, I was busy making fun of you and then you sneak these sentences in
Too slow Isa. :P
 
WingZero said:
Airball is now -9.............welp. Actually I'm kinda happy about this change. Hopefully it will break me of my bad habit to use airball ALOT.

Your airball crushes me.

How big of a change is -9?
 
assist change seems odd to me. i don't like the idea of an inconsistent change to assists, particularly when they are as invisible as "an assist with invincibility is affected". Sure we know what that it is and what assists get affected, but the general/casual player does not. So don't really like it from a design standpoint.

as far as balance goes, i don't think it affects any MUs that much. Solo Still loses neutral just as hard, and can just be locked down by other assists through block strings that were better for that sort of thing anyways (lp shot, cerecopter, cruel lily).

It also puts an assist like lk butt into a really weird position where it gets affected negatively but wasn't really ever part of whatever problem people seem to be having.

EDIT: i am not really attached to these feelings since i haven't played the changes, so i would read all that with a bug grain of salt
 
Not a fan of there being a bunch of assists with an exception to a rule.

Honest people need to learn to lock out assists on their own. Often people get stuff like updo whiffed in front of their face and for some reason don't even make the effort to jab it.
 
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I'm all for more indirect subtle buffs for solo, but I'm not gonna start acting optimistic and claim this change will take the game by storm. Like it was already mentioned loads of common assists aren't affected by this change, mostly the Updo/Pillar/etc brigade. I can see a much bigger storm happening if Mike just increased the assist cooldown period across the board. Which I personally feel would be a bit much anyway.
 
I don't like it. assists are already vulnerable enough as it is, with Double snaps. (which are quite common)
and the fortune change, why remove the jHP xx Head toss combo? please dont let this go live
 
The change is "if your assist has a hit-invincibility frame that will cause preblock, it will get locked out." Which was the easy way to try this, as opposed to tagging individual assists. So MK butt, all Fibers, and MP Bang are affected, but not Gorilla or Diamond Drop. I could change it to "if it has an invincible frame specifically while the attack is active" but that wouldn't affect LP Beat Extend, etc.

I don't like it either. But it was an easy thing to try out, so why not. This way there is actual data.

Dagwood said:
and the fortune change, why remove the jHP xx Head toss combo? please dont let this go live
Because j.HP now has way more utility so it needed less hitstun. I'm not thrilled with the state-change combos anyway.
 
Dagwood said:
and the fortune change, why remove the jHP xx Head toss combo? please dont let this go live
Please don't take out the combo between her best head on move into her incredibly amazing headless mode?

Sounds legit.
 
Look, other alex, no one wants to work to get an amazing character. We all want to play AE Cammy or ST Akuma or Gold Warmachine.
 
Seems kind of weird for fortune's j.HP to do so little damage, I'm not sure where headed vs. headless is in terms of combo damage but its something to consider. I don't play the character so that's all I have to say about that.

On the assist lockout - I think either it should apply universally to all assists or just be removed. The way it works currently just feels weird.
 
GirlyStyle said:
i don't like the idea of an inconsistent change to assists, particularly when they are as invisible as "an assist with invincibility is affected". Sure we know what that it is and what assists get affected, but the general/casual player does not.
On this point I'd say that there's a bunch of things that aren't obvious to casual players and things that won't ever be known unless you go outside the game in many different fighting games. I don't think everything needs to be super obvious, as long as it's known.

For the casual player, this change doesn't mean much cause they're casual. If they happen to use one of the locked assists, they'll play, hit assist, it'll come out, it'll go away, then they'll mash assist till it comes out again. Nothing will be different.
 
Zidiane said:
On this point I'd say that there's a bunch of things that aren't obvious to casual players and things that won't ever be known unless you go outside the game in many different fighting games. I don't think everything needs to be super obvious, as long as it's known.

For the casual player, this change doesn't mean much cause they're casual. If they happen to use one of the locked assists, they'll play, hit assist, it'll come out, it'll go away, then they'll mash assist till it comes out again. Nothing will be different.


i am purely talking from a design standpoint :P i don't think its great to have lots of little inconsistencies like this and i don't think "casuals won't care because they're casual" and "there's already a bunch of stuff like that" justifies it into being good design.
 
GirlyStyle said:
i am purely talking from a design standpoint :P i don't think its great to have lots of little inconsistencies like this and i don't think "casuals won't care because they're casual" and "there's already a bunch of stuff like that" justifies it into being good design.
I'm not a game designer. I don't know or study the intricacies of the way a game works, or how it's systems interact, or how the player feels and experiences those systems. So I can't speak on that. But as far as being a player, I've played many games that had things like I said, that I never discovered, or that were impossible to know just by playing the game. I enjoyed those games at a casual level. This change, should it stay, will do nothing to affect any casual player. So considering this change from a casual perspective kinda doesn't work cause it truly doesn't matter.

Trying to look at it as a player observing the design? I'm fine with the thought of certain types of assists not working the way other types do. Things don't need to be perfectly consistent across the board. What difference does it truly make if some assists, which are known, behave one way when others, which are also known, behave in a second way? If they randomly had lockout, that'd be different. And dumb. But for certain assists to have lockout for me is the same as certain characters weighing differently, or attacks causing green bounce only as assists, or grab scaling, or excellebella only being unblockable as they jump, or being able to call assists in the air only when you didn't super jump. None of that is bad design just because it's inconsistent with the rest of the character(s) or whatever.
 
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Zidiane said:
I'm not a game designer. I don't know or study the intricacies of the way a game works, or how it's systems interact, or how the player feels and experiences those systems. So I can't speak on that. But as far as being a player, I've played many games that had things like I said, that I never discovered, or that were impossible to know just by playing the game. I enjoyed those games at a casual level. This change, should it stay, will do nothing to affect any casual player. So considering this change from a casual perspective kinda doesn't work cause it truly doesn't matter.

Trying to look at it as a player observing the design? I'm fine with the thought of certain types of assists not working the way other types do. Things don't need to be perfectly consistent across the board. What difference does it truly make if some assists, which are known, behave one way when others, which are also known, behave in a second way? If they randomly had lockout, that'd be different. And dumb. But for certain assists to have lockout for me is the same as certain characters weighing differently, or attacks causing green bounce only as assists, or grab scaling, or excellebella only being unblockable as they jump, or being able to call assists in the air only when you didn't super jump. None of that is bad design just because it's inconsistent with the rest of the character(s) or whatever.



that's great you are fine with it, but simply i disagree.

This change, should it stay, will do nothing to affect any casual player. So considering this change from a casual perspective kinda doesn't work cause it truly doesn't matter.

well you can't really speak for every casual player out there, can you? You can't really say what someone will/won't notice.

when i play a game casually i don't really like it when something feels different and the difference or exception isn't communicated to me. i don't mentally pass it off as "oh that felt different...but okay!"

my mind is a little more OCD on details and things like these kind of inconsistencies, so when i feel/notice them, i feel uncomfortable and alienated from the rest of the game i was playing up to this point. just how my brain works with games (take in mind this is why i don't play a lot of videogames).

Yeah i absolutely agree that things dont need to be consistent, but i like those inconsistencies/rules to be communicated. take counter hits for example. they have a lot of abstract rules attached to them that may seem invisible, but when you get a counter hit there is the red flash, which symbolizes and contextualizes that something different is happening.

certain characters weighing differently,excellebella only being unblockable as they jump

funny thing i am not a fan of these things either :P

i understand that most people don't feel the same way as me about these things; my editor brain kind of gets in the way of how enjoy elements of games due to the comfort i feel through an illusion of continuity.
 
GirlyStyle said:
well you can't really speak for every casual player out there, can you?

Yeah i absolutely agree that things dont need to be consistent, but i like those inconsistencies/rules to be communicated. take counter hits for example. they have a lot of abstract rules attached to them that may seem invisible, but when you get a counter hit there is the red flash, which symbolizes and contextualizes that something different is happening.
Well, there is a little red and green light that indicates when you can and can't call assists, and some fiddling in training mode with the counter hit would easily tell any player curious about exactly what is gotten from counterhit. So I would argue if a casual player didn't care they wouldn't notice, but if they did care there are in game things to let them know the deal. Except for maybe that I don't think the game tells you in the tutorial what the little red and green lights are for... does it?

But I get that you're uncomfortable with certain aspects. I get the same way about different things.
 
GirlyStyle said:
my editor brain kind of gets in the way of how enjoy elements of games due to the comfort i feel through an illusion of continuity.
Your editor brain would prefer unblockables with Excella?
 
Excellabella being unblockable on the way down would lead to a lot of unavoidable resets unless you have an air super.
 
Mike_Z said:
Your editor brain would prefer unblockables with Excella?

its more my brain would be like "well that's silly but par for course with the rest of the ridiculous stuff going on"

like the reason I like ST so much is that since it starts at being complete bull shit from step 1 (throws, damage), that everything else after that just seems natural. Total bullshit, but natural :P Like I said, all about the illusion of continuity for me.

kind of makes me forget i am playing a game at all and just lets me zone out.

I am sure my competitive player brain would hate it though.

(I keep a lot of little brains around to make up for my lack of any real kind of intelligence/brains).
 
GirlyStyle said:
its more my brain would be like "well that's silly but par for course with the rest of the ridiculous stuff going on"
I don't think that [cr.LK->cr.MK, pause, Excella]xN until dead as a guaranteed thing on everyone except Val/Filia/Fortune is silly-but-par-for-the-course.
 
Mike_Z said:
I don't think that [cr.LK->cr.MK, pause, Excella]xN until dead as a guaranteed thing on everyone except Val/Filia/Fortune is silly-but-par-for-the-course.

no not really.

honestly, it was a poor example on my part, i was just trying to explain how i kind of think about these things and didn't just want to use one.

the spirit of the thing is that something like a specific unblockable wouldn't seem weird to me as it kind of goes how cRrRrAaAaAaZzZZyYyYy everything else seems (particularly in the setup/oki side of things), but something like assist lock out which is like this calculated, more-far-reaching-but not-quite-consistent thing which I would only ever notice through feel (assuming I am a player who doesn't read the updates) would probably bug me.


Definitely don't take this as "I don't think these things shouldn't be this way" because I know you are thinking of competitive balance, I am just more offering my opinion on the feedback/feel I receive from these sorts of changes.
 
For some reason, I REALLY like the j.HP Fortune change.
 
I seriously don't like invincible move lockout. overpowers certain non invincible assists, and is just plain and simply not as fun.

all assists getting green bounce as combo starters makes much more sense to me. and would be much more fun to boot.
 
Dime_x said:
I seriously don't like invincible move lockout. overpowers certain non invincible assists, and is just plain and simply not as fun.
Which assists get overpowered?
 
the good ones that aren't invincible... such as hk hairball and cerecopter, amongst others.
 
Mike dropped the idea of inv assist lockout anyway, so that no longer is a thing to worry about.
 
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Dime_x said:
the good ones that aren't invincible... such as hk hairball and cerecopter, amongst others.
They wouldn't get overpowered, they would just look more favorable in comparison.
 
Zidiane said:
They wouldn't get overpowered, they would just look more favorable in comparison.
in ST akuma isn't overpowered, he just looks more favorable in comparison.

...
 
Less about those assists becoming "overpowered" and more about being less used to playing against said assists.

Unless, of course, you are saying they were overpowered even before the experiment.
 
Dime_x said:
in ST akuma isn't overpowered, he just looks more favorable in comparison.
What kind of logic...

ST Akuma was good cause none of the other characters could deal with him well enough, right? How does that equate to one form of assist being slightly less mashable? Invincible assists would still be usable, and non invincible assist can still be beaten out. People would be no less capable of dealing with non-invincible assists just because invincible assists were a little weaker. Heck, I deal with non invincible assists with no assists!
 
Zidiane said:
What kind of logic...

ST Akuma was good cause none of the other characters could deal with him well enough, right? How does that equate to one form of assist being slightly less mashable? Invincible assists would still be usable, and non invincible assist can still be beaten out. People would be no less capable of dealing with non-invincible assists just because invincible assists were a little weaker. Heck, I deal with non invincible assists with no assists!


if you don't understand that your original reply could have been said in response to anything that I said (I could have said the hand of god comes down and smacks the entire cast of all their hp) you basically threw out bait into an unanswerable question... and thought that that was actually a discussion? I responded with an argument that had a similar lack of discussion to show you how bad your original response was.


and funnily enough you got it. you realized how dumb the argument is. you didn't realize that that was the argument you just used though... so I don't know what to say.

as far as the akuma argument... that is way off topic. it was an example.

I don't find your argument compelling though. anything can be dealt with. and the fact that anything can be dealt with doesn't mean that "it can be dealt with" is a viable argument for somethings inclusion.
 
Dime_x said:
you basically threw out bait into an unanswerable question... and thought that that was actually a discussion?
No. I was asking a question. You implied non invincible assists somehow get stronger. They don't. The reason why the question was unanswerable is because you were wrong. It's like if you said lk bomber got stronger because hk bomber lost it's invincibility. It may be a better choice for assist now, but it didn't get any stronger.
 
Uh guys

Muro said:
Mike dropped the idea of inv assist lockout anyway, so that no longer is a thing to worry about.
 
what? you are kidding right?

fei didn't get stronger going into AE when everyone not named yun fei or yang got nerfed to shit, yet fei remained relatively unchanged.
as far as your hypothesis is concerned you aren't taking into consideration how the strength of one move affects the strength of another.


and that is all the really needs to be said about that. im not going to bullet point it out or waste my time with an essay.
 
Muro said:
Mike dropped the idea of inv assist lockout anyway, so that no longer is a thing to worry about.
I was honestly looking forward to the change :I
 
RemiKz said:
Did you really just compare Hairball and Cerecopter to ST Akuma?
Yes. Yes he did.

It's been a known fact: The reason ST Akuma is hard-banned is because he's so good, Top 8 would be nothing but Akuma mirrors, and nobody wants that.
 
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