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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

What about:

All assists' invincibility frames are converted to infinite super armor.

That way, their utility is mostly unchanged, but they will get chipped (edit: and locked out) by stray hits AND knocked down by sweeps (!!!).
 
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Some of us dream of a world where Val/Peacock/Painwheel team is viable
 
RemiKz said:
Did you really just compare Hairball and Cerecopter to ST Akuma?

No. I compared a bad argument to a bad argument. The degree is moot. Which is the point.
 
Stonechimes said:
Some of us dream of a world where Val/Peacock/Painwheel team is viable
Making invincible assists come less frequently won't solve that.
 
Reverted the invincible-assist lockout experiment, I hated it.
- Fix midscreen double-snaps. In order to combo the assist you must snap both the assist and the point character at the same time, and the assist must be within about 2/3 screen of the edge or else they will leave the screen. Center Stage assist (or Seria version) can still give double-snaps because moving the edge is a feature unique to Squigly, but that's about it. Yes, this is staying.
NEW - Head-on Cat Scratch Fever can't be comboed off with normals, can be cancelled into Cat Strike on hit.

Mid-screen double snaps are now a thing of the past, I suppose that's for the best even though they were pretty hype when somebody managed to pull one off.
 
Jason said:
Mid-screen double snaps are now a thing of the past, I suppose that's for the best even though they were pretty hype when somebody managed to pull one off.
'Cept it's pretty much a Squigly-exclusive thing.
 
RetroStation said:
'Cept it's pretty much a Squigly-exclusive thing.

Unless she's played by me. I always mess up my mid screen double snaps.
 
Val, PS, and Filia (or was hers just kill the point then the assist?) could all do something mid screen.
 
Stonechimes said:
Some of us dream of a world where Val/Peacock/Painwheel team is viable

That team is viable.

Sad that the midscreen double snap is gone. Would have made playing parasoul much easier but she can just corner carry -> snap so its w/e. Can't wait for more changes!
 
IsaVulpes said:
FT7 on who ya'll like, dekillsage playing that team against you
Fight to the death
Well is it to seven or to death, pick one
 
So on the head-roll after ground super change that introduced today... it's pretty useless.

If you have OTG left then you're only +1 and your combo straight up ends there since head-roll doesn't cancel into anything. You may as well just do a head-on > headless transition combo that sends them into the corner and ends in rekka since you'll have more advantage AND the head will be in a better position for pressure AND you can set this up midscreen AND you don't have to save your OTG. Also, head-roll triggers undizzy so if you super at the end of a combo then... yeah.

If you used up your OTG and cancel into head-roll then you're -13 with Fortune right on top of the head so that's an easy punish with both the head and the body potentially getting caught in a combo. So... don't do that.
 
dekillsage said:
That team is viable.

Agreed.

The most suspect part of that team is peacock needing to use a painwheel assist. But there are choices such as stinger projectiles or hk buer, or even pinion assist.

Val herself can be played well with any george or mp item drop or st.hp.

The team is viable, but i wouldnt call it... Good. It would certainly get wins just off of the dhc compatibility alone.
 
I guess this is mostly direct @Mike_Z but I wanted other's opinions on this.

I actually really hate the new j.HP. It's nice for restand stuff and a few resets I found here and there, but the trade-off just makes the attack worse. The speed adjustment doesn't really do anything for me because I find that good players can react to it about as well as they could before if I use it as an overhead. The reduced hitstun doesn't even let me combo it into a MK axe kick.

Overall, I think my biggest issue with it is not being able to combo into head spike with it. You seem to not like the fact that you can switch "modes" mid-combo, but why? For me, the biggest advantage to playing head-on Fortune, besides the overall higher damage, was that you can assure that you could transition into the head being in an advantageous position against you and the opponent. It felt natural, it felt like a character that had a moveset that worked as a whole, it felt like good design.

With that being said, we can still do stuff like this

My only problem with this is it just doesn't feel right doing the TK head spike. It's an unnecessarily more difficult way to do things than just j.HP xx Headspike. Not to say I haven't already practiced this enough to get it reliably in a match, but it's a bigger barrier than needs to be there IMO.

If even this gets removed, there is very little appeal to using head-on at all. I could spend meter for Feral Edge and sneeze off the head, but the damage for that combo route isn't very appealing (not to mention finicky depending on how close to the opponent the super hit), for the meter spent and I might as well already be playing with the head off at that point. This feels like you want us to play one "mode" or the other, instead of using the entire character freely.

That brings me to the ground super change. I don't mind that she lost the otg follow-up when the head is on, and being able to cancel into head-roll is actually kind of neat. My only issue with it is the head follow-up feels flawed. If you haven't used your otg, midscreen it will leave the head over the body of the other character as they get up from a hard knockdown and it leaves you at +1 in the corner. The problem arises when you have used your otg and the follow-up literally becomes your own death, leaving you at a very large frame disadvantage in the corner and midscreen if the opponent techs towards you. Again, this kind of overall feels like a nerf to head-on play and makes headless the more appealing option.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to start making these exact changes to j.HP. I think everyone felt that Fortune was in a good position now with nerfs to:
- Not being able to move the head on a blocked feral edge
- The head receiving more stun when hit
- Not being able to move the head if snapped in
- Blocked headroll now being at a frame disadvantage
- Not being able to cancel headbutt/zoom on block

I don't think anyone really had any concerns with her past this stuff. At this point I'm willing to take the loss of the ground super otg follow-up and keep the damage nerf to j.HP (although I don't think it really needs it), if j.HP was reverted to what it was like before. Fortune just doesn't really feel fun anymore, and I think others can attest to this as well, although I would like to hear their opinion on the matter.

PS: This is probably going to sound silly asking for a headless buff, but I really feel like Sneeze should have an active hitbox on the entire arc upwards. Every other head attack she has kind of serves a similar purpose (horizontal moving hitbox) and making this slightly better would give me a reason to start using it more.

PSS: Sorry for the dime_x length post.
 
Such as?
 
- Head fullscreen confirming into full combos on reaction to something like "Napalm Sho-" - Meterless, Easy, while doing anything
- Head being impossible to actually get offscreen as it gets pulled with the screen edge (something like "Carry fortune from one side of the stage to the other so she can't use her head for a while" doesn't work)
- Head actually protecting her from damage - still (ie Peacock Argus>Gregor DHC with Head in the middle of the stage doesn't work; several Doublesnaps don't work if Fortunes Head is in the way (bonus points for Snap forcing head off), things)
- A DP that covers half the screen, doubles as one of the best movement abilities in the game, is unpunisheable on airblock by half(+?) of the cast and leads to full combos on hit (meterlessly!)
- Probably a bunch of things I'm forgetting and a bunch of things which annoy me but are just good rather than bare retarded (eg c.LK) and.. owell

I think pretty much the whole character is just.. yeah :~
 
The j.HP changes were actually supposed to be a net buff since before lots of people said "Oh no that move is useless cuz it's so sloooowwwwww".
I had to lower the damage because leaving it that fast and that knockdown-y I could get 9k with 1 bar without trying.

If Fortune players feel like they are mostly a nerf, I'll revert them.
I'll try something else tonight though - new speed, old knock-upward and hitstun and damage.
 
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effective stance changes costing meter isn't really a new thing. I played Tira in SC5 and pre-patch, you got most of your stance control via spending meter. Maybe just make head removal after Barrage a bit better?
 
Ground super change was unfortunate but ultimately it was whatever. I hardly ever, IF EVER, saw people combo'ing from it before, anyways. I still don't think the head-roll cancel is all that great, but it's something.

I actually liked everything about the new j.HP, though the hitstun change really bothered me. The knockback change closed some routes but opened up a few interesting ones, though at first it turned me off. I personally will be ok if the knockback stays or even if it reverts. Damage nerf made sense because she'd be doing a large amount of damage easily due to the new routes. But yeah, combo'ing from j.HP into head spike just felt natural, so thankfully that's back.

I'd say that all of the nerfs is making Fortune less fun overall, though a good amount of them were justified. I actually find head-on Fortune to be slightly more fun with the new routes and the head normals being buffed, more so from a faster st.HP than a faster j.HP (since j.HP's range still isn't all that great though the speed increase is quite nice).
 
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CaioLugon said:
Should've played me.

Or damn near any other fortune that likes that massive corner damage. Our fortune out here loves that shit.
 
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Dime_x said:
Or damn near any other fortune that likes that massive corner damage. Our fortune out here loves that shit.
LEDD? Yeah, I saw age's videos, made me pretty happy to see someone who uses the same midscreen combo I do.
How come I never heard of the guy before?
 
On one hand, I feel like Fortune's head is vulnerable enough in the beta to make playing behind it without a solid gameplan for protecting it sufficiently risky. I'm not sure if head-off fortune needs any more nerfs, but we'll see.

On the other hand Fiber Upper is one of the most powerful and annoying reversals I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with, because of how easy it is to get away with just throwing it out any time you feel like it. Anything that takes it down a peg is ok with me.

So overall I have mixed feelings about this update. That's just my opinion from somebody who doesn't play Fortune.
 
CaioLugon said:
LEDD? Yeah, I saw age's videos, made me pretty happy to see someone who uses the same midscreen combo I do.
How come I never heard of the guy before?

Yeah thats him.
Well at the risk of being off topic, probably because hes australian and doesnt post on skullheart as far as i know.

But he's been consistently coming 3rd or higher in most au skullbats. Hes a pretty damn solid player. And back on topic, that double super combo is a staple of his in the corner... Does massive damage because ferserker is still doing vanilla deathcrawl damage. LOL.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
I hardly ever, IF EVER, saw people combo'ing from it before, anyways.

Yeah I was using it too, heh.

Edit *DP change opinion* - I am a fan of the Fiber Up headless change, I feel that if Fortune is going to take her head off and gain new options that she should perhaps lose a few utilities other than damage and/or the ability to IAD pressure/rushdown, not to say she does not already gain a few weaknesses but I think people would agree that the pros outweigh the cons maybe too much?

Although that said, I think that in exchange she could use a Sneeze buff to increase its usability/usefulness as that should be her go to DP when her head is off IMO. Her being required to use her head well in order defend herself seems to be a far more interesting and a fun way to play headless I would think, right now it seems people just use it to get fullscreen confirms more or less.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.
 
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OK, so a lot of this has been covered already, but here are my thoughts on the new changes.

1. Fiber Uppercut

Fiber Uppercut should keep its invincibility. It's always had it, and I don't feel like taking it away balances anything. What I do think should happen is the move should be MORE negative on block, or have more recovery. Skullgirls is an honest game when it comes to reversals. Fortune USED to be able to do SF4 non-committal baby garbage where you could DP somebody in their face and then just cancel into Super to blow up their punish attempt, but this was removed. That's good! Overall, I think Fortune should be rewarded for reading an IAD from Fillia for example, but I don't think its fair if somebody blocks a DP its hard for them to punish. That allows Fortune players to get away with nonsense.

Solution: Fiber Uppercut keeps invincibility but has more recovery, making it easier to punish when blocked in the air and giving character's better punish options (possibly counterhit launcher punishes) on the ground. I think this is honestly much fairer.

2. Purrzerker Furrage

Taking away the OTG after this doesn't really make any sense to me, its something Fortune has always had. The sliding knockdown could actually be a possible buff, because you could just call a meaty pressure assist and then get in with a mixup, and then Fortune has you in the corner in the blender. Triple rekka into Purrzerker combos into the corner, then OTGing with c.LK, c.HP into an air combo, sneeze, can be very useful, but I don't think they are game breaking. Many characters can combo multiple supers in their combos. Overall it's whatever now. I don't really think the change was necessary, since the main reason the change was made was to keep beta j.HP combos in check that aren't there anymore anyway.
 
FuLLBLeeD said:
Fiber Uppercut should keep its invincibility. It's always had it and I don't feel like taking it away balances anything.

Taking away the OTG after this doesn't really make any sense to me, its something Fortune has always had.
Please revert all changes to all characters back to Vanilla

Making Catheads cost 2 Meter doesn't make sense to me, 1 Bar Catheads is something Double always had.
Fiber Upper should go back to being -7 on block. It's always been that way and I don't feel like making it punisheable balances anything.
Tears should be excluded from damage scaling. 15k damage meterless combos is something Parasoul always had.

The logic
It's burning
 
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Woofly said:
Yeah I was using it too, heh.

Edit *DP change opinion* - I am a fan of the Fiber Up headless change, I feel that if Fortune is going to take her head off and gain new options that she should perhaps lose a few utilities other than damage and/or the ability to IAD pressure/rushdown, not to say she does not already gain a few weaknesses but I think people would agree that the pros outweigh the cons maybe too much?

Although that said, I think that in exchange she could use a Sneeze buff to increase its usability/usefulness as that should be her go to DP when her head is off IMO. Her being required to use her head well in order defend herself seems to be a far more interesting and a fun way to play headless I would think, right now it seems people just use it to get fullscreen confirms more or less.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.
EU Fortune players knew what was up, then. And yeah, I'm all for a buff to sneeze if Fiber upper gets nerfed (again).
 
IsaVulpes said:
Please revert all changes to all characters back to Vanilla

Making Catheads cost 2 Meter doesn't make sense to me, 1 Bar Catheads is something Double always had.
Fiber Upper should go back to being -7 on block. It's always been that way and I don't feel like making it punisheable balances anything.
Tears should be excluded from damage scaling. 15k damage meterless combos is something Parasoul always had.

The logic
It's burning

I guess you missed the part where I said Fiber Uppercut should be more negative. I'm thinking like -15 minimum on block.

You can disagree, but come on dude, you see where I'm coming from. Who's complaining Fiber Upper Cut is invincible with head off? Everyone complains its still hard to punish and that's what should be addressed.

I'm not saying Fiber Upper shouldn't be nerfed, I'm saying it being invincible isn't the problem.
 
FuLLBLeeD said:
I'm thinking like -15 minimum on block.
Fiber Upper is more negative than -15 already

FuLLBLeeD said:
you see where I'm coming from.
No, I can't see where you're coming from at all - "It was always this way so don't change it" is NOT how you balance games

FuLLBLeeD said:
Who's complaining Fiber Upper Cut is invincible with head off?
I am

Right now, Headon is gazillion times worse than Headoff; There's little to no reason for not staying headless all match every matchup.
I quite like the tradeoff of "You get to be completely retarded with the head, but you lose the invincibility on the best move in the game"
So you actually have to decide whether you want to be a mixup+pressure machine or take the strong meterless reversal - glasscannon vs reliable gun and all.
 
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Here we go

FuLLBLeeD said:
I guess you missed the part where I said Fiber Uppercut should be more negative. I'm thinking like -15 minimum on block.
HK Fiber is already -20. (For reference LK is -13, MK is -16)
There is in-game framedata for you to have checked this yourself. :^)

FuLLBLeeD said:
Fiber Uppercut should keep its invincibility. It's always had it, and I don't feel like taking it away balances anything. What I do think should happen is the move should be MORE negative on block, or have more recovery.
[snip]
Solution: Fiber Uppercut keeps invincibility but has more recovery, making it easier to punish when blocked in the air and giving character's better punish options (possibly counterhit launcher punishes) on the ground. I think this is honestly much fairer.
The PROBLEM is that no matter how minus Fiber itself is, HEADLESS Fiber + Zoom can always be made either safe or plus on block. So in effect, as long as the head is within half a screen, she has a safe invincible reversal that can also be a meterless combo starter. That's why this change only applies headless. IDGAF about people being able to punish it from the air, but that's a problem.

Everyone already gets a CH punish due to it being -20.

FuLLBLeeD said:
2. Purrzerker Furrage
Taking away the OTG after this doesn't really make any sense to me, its something Fortune has always had. The sliding knockdown could actually be a possible buff,
It had sliding knockdown before, that's not even a change, dude.
(You sure love "She's always had it" as a reason for keeping things. You realize that's not valid, right?)

Taking away the OTG is for the following reason: Fortune has a full ground chain plus rekkas plus a super that scales really well. At max damage scaling, having one hit left before undizzy, Fortune can add over 2.5k to any combo by herself (cr.LP-s.LP-s.LK-s.MP-s.MK-s.HK-HP rekkas-super). With Fenrir's scaling fixed, Fortune adds more than anyone else in that situation except perfect-spread-pattern Peacocks. And Fortune's super also doesn't allow ground techs if you choose not to follow it up. A character with as many other advantages as she has also being able to add the most damage for the least meter is not okay with me.
 
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I miss the old beta j.hp.

I liked restands. (That weren't fiber loops)

I liked fun.

Now she's boring again.

Could we at least keep it a little while longer to experiment with it? I've only had a few days with it but it actually had me trying out head-on. I really loved the new things fortune could do. I also feel that with enough time that (old) beta j.hp could find lots of new routes we'll never know about because everyone wanted the old hitstun on it. The latest j.hp change just feel like regular head-on which I've never enjoyed, everything feels boring again.

I don't care about the other changes I just liked that she was more fun.

let's hope other fortune players don't try to strong-arm me.
 
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I missed the old j.hp.

I liked damage.

I liked fun.

Then she got boring.

Now she's fun again.
 
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