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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

I picked up Fukua because she had good looking shadow combos.
Now it feels like she has a mental delay
Something like "oh, my shadow hit... should I run now? idk, probably yes"

I don't have any problems with damage reduction, the lack of sliding knockdown and this kind of stuff. Don't think she needs her H Drill to be hit invincible, too. I just want her to be fluid, and the delay on the shadow gives the feeling that she is rooted to the ground for some time.
 
Colossi said:
I picked up Fukua because she had good looking shadow combos.
Now it feels like she has a mental delay
Something like "oh, my shadow hit... should I run now? idk, probably yes"

I don't have any problems with damage reduction, the lack of sliding knockdown and this kind of stuff. Don't think she needs her H Drill to be hit invincible, too. I just want her to be fluid, and the delay on the shadow gives the feeling that she is rooted to the ground for some time.

Can you not go hey I think it's okay if Fukua lose all her tools please??? Thanks
 
Spencer said:
If it matters, I've been bitching and moaning about Fukua since day one. Sometimes even unfairly so. @Dreamepitaph can confirm?

Ok if you're going to tag me then tag me for something useful. not in a good mood and its not fair to blow up on you fully this time so i'll let it rock.

BACK TO THE CHANGES PLEASE and give actual feedback with examples and instances. also if you would like to provide replays using the beta function you can choose to do that as well to show mike your ideas(or further concrete his methodical reasons for the changes). Tomorrow i will give my thoughts on these changes on Fukua.
 
Okay so, Cerebella can do this thing where she does MGR, and can cancel it into dynamo on whiff when someone reversals against it, cuz it has invincibility. Can she not????
 
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dekillsage said:
Okay so, Cerebella can do this thing where she does MGR, and can cancel it into dynamo on whiff when someone reversals against it, cuz it has invincibility. Can she not????
yeah Cerebella has like three frames of invincibility on whiffed MGR. then again i never really noticed this because when ever i whiffed a MGR the opponent would wait for a second to punish it. But still it's weird how bella gets invincible frames for a whiffed move. eh what ever...
 
dekillsage said:
Okay so, Cerebella can do this thing where she does MGR, and can cancel it into dynamo on whiff when someone reversals against it, cuz it has invincibility. Can she not????
uh, what if the opponent jump backs?
Sounds like a super good option select indeed.

"anyway, does more things than it's suppose to, we should get rid of that"
 
well timed enough MGR will allow that kind of thing to happen even if you get rid of recovery invincible frames.

edit : don't forget to get rid of devil horns invincibility during recover, I think there's like 3 frames too.
 
mgr beats half of the supers in the cast
 
yeah merry u thought is a pretty good move no lie
 
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Colossi said:
MGR beats mashed Fukua lvl 3.

Yo. When I experienced this first hand I was like wait
something is wrong here looool
 
pfftt now you guys are like "MGR is cool when you whiff it." you're going to make me whiff the move on purpose and mash out dynamo like nerd, just so i can win a match with barely any health left. Then again I already fish out for reflects when i have bella out so, yeah.
 
The point isn't to whiff it, though you can do it on purpose for certain baits/ set ups. I just find it weird is all lol
Also its not whiff it and mash dynamo, it can also be whiff it, react to their super, dynamo.
 
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dekillsage said:
The point isn't to whiff it, though you can do it on purpose for certain baits/ set ups. I just find it weird is all lol
Also its not whiff it and mash dynamo, it can also be whiff it, react to their super, dynamo.

Yeah there's just enough invul on MGR so that you can avoid the first frame of whatever super it is and then do Dynamo on reaction cause the hitstop-frame whiffed.

Honestly I don't think its a big deal she can do the same thing with LnL or Tumble Run on 90% of super moves in the game.
 
I don't understand why Cerebella's qcf and qcb command grabs are fully invincible during active frames, and qcf throw is both fully invincible on active AND very difficult to punish. Being throw invincible and being unable to be teched seems enough of a plus to me.
 
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This is something I noticed with the UI, not sure there's anything that can be done about it, but big band is so big that if you are doing a high air combo, his body covers up a lot of his own life bar (or yours, depending on the side the combo is on) and stuff, so I can't tell how much health he has left if he's under 30-40% life. Somewhat difficult to see meter level outside of memorizing the color as well in the corner (probably not as big :PUN: of a problem) Idk if making it so the overlay goes over characters would be better, cause then maybe you could have trouble trying to combo? idk. Other people's input on this would be nice
 
ClarenceMage said:
I don't understand why Cerebella's qcf and qcb command grabs are fully invincible during active frames, and qcf throw is both fully invincible on active AND very difficult to punish. Being throw invincible and being unable to be teched seems enough of a plus to me.

Because neutral jumps?
 
FuLLBLeeD said:
Because neutral jumps?

Neutral jump, come down with air normal attack doesnt work for come characters against bellas diamond drop
 
WarpedEcho said:
This is something I noticed with the UI, not sure there's anything that can be done about it, but big band is so big that if you are doing a high air combo, his body covers up a lot of his own life bar (or yours, depending on the side the combo is on) and stuff, so I can't tell how much health he has left if he's under 30-40% life. Somewhat difficult to see meter level outside of memorizing the color as well in the corner (probably not as big :PUN: of a problem) Idk if making it so the overlay goes over characters would be better, cause then maybe you could have trouble trying to combo? idk. Other people's input on this would be nice
Blocking characters is worse.
 
if you were expecting the DD then im pretty sure it could be punished by most if not all of the cast esp if they are going straight into an air dash.

parasoul could probably do a j.HP or HK and the hitboxes would be good enough to hit her on the way down.

tbh i dont really think its that much of a problem that it would need to be changed though.
 
I dont think it needs to be changed per se, its just really annoying to have a command grab recover that quickly... It recovers at around about the same speed as a breakable throw
 
I suppose I should probably put the new things into the Beta, eh.

@Dreamepitaph @dekillsage @whoever else
Fukua feels stiffer because she's in recovery longer. You only notice because you were already used to the other version.
What's your documented difference in damage on some things? List em. I tested pretty thoroughly and I was losing like 300-400 damage on most things except on [j.HK->HP] x3 which is why the 75% is there.

@MegamanDS
If you can play the Beta, then don't need to come over. :^P

@dekillsage
MGR is only invincible until the end of active, and it won't grab people (except Band) in your face. I don't have a problem with the invincibility.
Though the super-cancel period on command grabs is only supposed to be there to let you accidentally super if you messed up the motion, and I just checked - MGR/DD are the only command grabs where the cancel period doesn't end before they go active. That's a fix they should get, thanks for pointing it out.
You'd still be able to invincible cancel on reaction just not after the active frames.

I have more but there's dinner.
 
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Dime_x said:
I dont think it needs to be changed per se, its just really annoying to have a command grab recover that quickly... It recovers at around about the same speed as a breakable throw

Throws have 7f startup 37 f recovery, DD has 5f startup, 34 f recovery. DD is harder to punish by neutral jumping than a normal throw is.
 
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Sh so easy sometimes.. i knew some know it all would come and correct me for that without me having to count the frames myself :)

Lol... Haha but thanks, its been awhile since i played against age so i cant remember the exact timing to punish them but... I remember it being stupid fast whatever it was.
 
ClarenceMage said:
Throws have 7f startup 37 f recovery, DD has 5f startup, 34 f recovery. DD is harder to punish by neutral jumping than a normal throw is.
why not just iad then a move if you think they're going to throw. Filia can just jhk : P
 
Not every character has an airdash or instant overhead.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, a good portion of the cast actually have something they can punish with from a neutral jump.
 
WarpedEcho said:
why not just iad then a move if you think they're going to throw. Filia can just jhk : P

I have no problem punishing it with IAD characters or Filia's j.HK, that's a no brainer. I mostly have trouble punishing it with characters that don't have access to an airdash or an easily usable move like an instant overhead. I guess with characters like Double I should do jump into teacup/fridge/barrel or something but that requires a pre-commitment which loses if their mixup is "do nothing and block", and perfectly timing a tiger kneed teacup/fridge/barrel in response to a command grab in reset or pressure is... not impossible but certainly not completely reliable.

If I do break the situations down, it seems that characters do have adequate punishes for it but just trying to do something on the fly in-game is more difficult than punishing a normal throw. I'd lab it out right now and give you my thoughts but I'm leaving to do some other shit soonish.
 
@Mike_Z I don't have much confidence in speaking to you about changes but, i wanted to try atleast.

For the most part i find the changes makes fukua pretty fair. i did promise to give it a full week atleast till today before posting my thoughts. I know why you did these changes as they were obvious and i agree but i think a slight adjustment is in order cause fukua feels alot more linear and stiff compared to the previous beta experiment when you took out drill.

j.hk scaling: i had no problem with it since most combos doesn't get to that stage unless you just yolo j.hk. i don't care if this gets reverted or not, the only thing it affects is CH damage which you can find a different combo to achieve the same result.

Fireball super with no sliding knockdown: I do not care if this gets reverted back or not. this was in exchange for the H drill. the change i also have no problem with and really would be dumb to grant sliding knockdown when she has her other useful tool to setting up Sliding knockdown.

H drill having Strike invincibility and for longer than before: People really slept on this change. I like it. Now everyone has no excuse to to not punish H drill.

Shadow damage reduced: fine with this since this was the source of her gorilla damage.

M shadow -3 blockstun: No qualms with it at first, will explain in the next post.

15F recovery on shadows: This is the biggest problem i had with this change. funny part is I AGREE with the idea of the change. The only thing i don't like about the change is that Fukua cannot throw much shadows even at 3/4ths of the screen since M shadow's -3 blockstun pretty much allows opponents to gain ground on fukua when she throws any type of shadow. On top of that the recovery makes it so that if you pick L shadow and catch someone with that and try to convert at some distances you will not. On top of that it will encourage the opponent to tech torwards you and essentially you're in a mixup for using the right shadow. if you get a successful Close up mixup, Conversions feel horribly wrong at points and make playing her really awkward. There are other things i find wrong with this specific change but these are the most prominent ones

Mike, I said i would give this week to play the changes and see how i feel about them even though you may not think much of me. I only want to help make things fair and at the same time let a character function fluidly.

The changes here are good. They make fukua's actually think about their tools. Hell i would encourage the Recovery frames on Shadows if they need to be. However i feel like the recovery on shadows is a bit too much. would it be possible to keep the goal of punishing shadows while allowing her to move a bit more fluidly?

Like decrease the recovery from 15F to 12 or 10 Frames? i do not know what was the original recovery on shadows but atleast this would allow her to get hit along with being able to move fluidly. If anything replace recovery with some sort of cooldown to shadows.

these changes are for the better. Even the recovery but at this current moment the recovery on shadows along with -3 blockstun on M shadow will make fukua's debate on the importance of shadows? they can be blocked. M and H are 30 and 31Frames(correct me on that please). both are telegraphed and both can be blocked. L shadow is 23F and can be easily blocked. so with that in mind fukua players will resort to Fireball more than shadows not because its a fire ball but because we would have to. and we can't disregard shadows as being completely useless cause its one of the main neutral she has. and right now its a bit too stiff to even use it at some points. it also makes it so that fukua at most times cannot control the screen and has to go into battle not on her terms and is reduced to a linear approach.

To be honest if i had to pick which fukua i would accept into retail it would be the previous fukua that had no H drill but still fluid shadows. I would even accept the j.hk scaling and shadow reduction as a result.
 
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@Bella's MGR Nerf

It's getting a small nerf, but that's fine. It's active for only 3 frames, but if it's working not as intended that's a bug more than a gameplay thing.

But, like, I mean, MGR isn't even invincible all through startup (I think it has like 3 frames of vulnerable startup when I tested?). If you try and use it like Dekillsage suggested, to give yourself enough time to counter super (because we need to make options weaker because they beat mashed super...?), that means you have to make your reset slower, and if they delay their mashed super (or just don't do it on the first couple frames, or do a non-metered reversal, or do a non metered reversal cancelled into super) then you get hit.

Not saying don't touch it, just saying that I don't think it's that good, or something you can throw out all the time unless your opponent is being predictable (except I guess if you have safe DHC's and meter to blow).
 
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RemiKz said:
Not every character has an airdash or instant overhead.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, a good portion of the cast actually have something they can punish with from a neutral jump.


Thats probably the reason why at the end of the day it doesnt need any changing. Off the top of my head everyone has something they can do "on anticipation" to beat the move or punish it on highly focused tunnel visin styles of reaction. Like pw can air hk buer or thresher which both lead to a combo. But reacting fast ebpnough with air hk buer is going to be very hard, and thresher as well.


It just seems like punishes like the ones i just mentioned are a bit underpowered in the ease of accessibility realm for a move that beats both high and low block, is not techable, and hits in 5 frames.


But the fact that it scales damage is the real reason why i dont mind the move anymore. In vanilla it was an op piece of shit move... Now it feels just right.
 
ClarenceMage said:
Throws have 7f startup 37 f recovery, DD has 5f startup, 34 f recovery. DD is harder to punish by neutral jumping than a normal throw is.

Considering how safe up+back is in this game compared to a lot of games, I don't think this is a problem.

You can't have sf4 style command throws with 50+ recovery frames on whiff or nobody would use them.
 
Jason said:
You can't have sf4 style command throws with 50+ recovery frames on whiff or nobody would use them.


I dont find the logic in this at all with how it would apply to sg. To marvel sure id see it as applicable logic...but this isnt marvel and characters cant viably almost never touch the ground and marvel command grab characters cant punish up/back as obviously as excelebella... Which is getting off tangent a bit but i digress.

Command grabs in sf4/streetfighter are an EASY punish... And yet they not only are still used but rarely punished hard... Its called correct reads. And when you are on offense its much easier to make correct reads with unsafe moves since you can just do the safe thing instead.
 
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It is beginning to seem like we are targeting anything we don't like instead of things that might actually be OP/UP.
 
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Dime_x said:
I dont find the logic in this at all with how it would apply to sg.

In SG up+Back is much less risky than it is in SF4, therefore command throws are also less risky. I think that's pretty reasonable.

You also don't lose 40% or more of your life meterless for getting hit by a Diamond Drop like you do against Potemkin or Tager.

In that context I think its fair for them to be more difficult to punish. That said, SG is its own game and I'm kind of regretting making the comparison in the first place now.
 
Spencer said:
It is beginning to seem like we are targeting anything we don't like instead of things that might actually be OP/UP.
I just think its called conversing about things. I dont think the move needs tweaking at this point. Which isnt to say that it wouldnt be a welcome change if it happened either. But i know that it wont happen and I'm not at all worried about it not happening.

But the move still sticks out in my mind as some really weird properties... And thats basically all i was ever saying. To me there is a big difference with complaining about a move and wanting the move changed. But maybe thats just me.
 
Dime_x said:
To me there is a big difference with complaining about a move and wanting the move changed. But maybe thats just me.
Complaining about moves that you don't want changed in the thread discussing changes sounds like a weird thing to do.
 
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