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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Zidiane said:
Complaining about moves that you don't want changed in the thread discussing changes sounds like a weird thing to do.

hmm... Yes i could complain elsewhere i guess like the tier thread.

Point taken. However:

Dont take my presupposition that i dont think that the move needs changing, as me thinking that the move is in its correct form, either.

Also, this is a team game so we cant really state that bella cant combo off of DD when on a team that has the correct assists... She can. I should know since one of Australia's bellas uses a team that can combo off of DD, and since my team should i ever decide to use bella, can also combo off DD. And up/back is one of the most dangerous things you can do in sg when in range for DD since a cr.lk will open you up to non scaled bella damage.

I dont think the move needs changing because this is sg and because there is other more bs stuff in this game.

But that is literally the only reason why i wouldnt say DD needs a common sense change. Anyways yeah. Wrong thread.
 
ClarenceMage said:
I don't understand why Cerebella's qcf and qcb command grabs are fully invincible during active frames
Being fully invincible during active frames prevents you from trading with a command grab. That way, "the grappler using the command grab won the trade" happens instead of "well, your s.lp traded with the grapplers MGR, so ???". I'm still not sure how the game decides who wins if two Pummel Horses connect on the same frame, though.
 
Mike_Z said:
@Dreamepitaph @dekillsage @whoever else
What's your documented difference in damage on some things? List em. I tested pretty thoroughly and I was losing like 300-400 damage on most things except on [j.HK->HP] x3 which is why the 75% is there.

The old optimized combos don't work anymore due to the shadow recovery, but the so-far-as-I've-figured current optimal combos are in that range. Damage went from:

Corner
  • Old: 8609 (cr.LKMP s.HK, delay high-OTG H Shadow, s.HK M-Shadow, j.HK, s.HP j.HPHK, s.LKLKHK L-Shadow, s.LPLK cr.MK s.HK H-Drill Superdrill). This would do 8290 with current shadow damage.
  • New: 8287 (cr.LK s.MKHK L-Shadow, s.HP j.HK, s.MKHP j.HPHK, s.LKLK cr.MK s.HK, OTG cr.LP s.LK cr.MK s.HK H-Drill Superdrill)
Midscreen:
  • Old: 8292 (cr.LKMPHP H-Shadow, run, high-OTG cr.HK L-Shadow, s.MK cr.HP M-Shadow, dashjump j.HPHK, cr.MPHP, dash, s.LKLK cr.MKHP H-Drill Superdrill). This would do 8006 with current shadow damage.
  • New: 7955. (cr.LKMPHP, slightly delay M-Shadow, s.HP j.HK, s.MKHP, late j.HPHK, s.LKLK cr.HP L-Shadow, s.LPLK cr.MK s.HP, late Airdrill, OTG cr.HK)
I also got somewhere around 13350 from an L5 grab, but the damage will probably be greatly reduced against middleweights and heavyweights since the 75% j.HK scaling overrides the 200% starter bonus which forces shadow and cr.HP juggling. I can't help but feel the combos are a bit standardized now, but that may just be me. I'll certainly miss the reliable re-OTG for style, but I can cope.
 
my optimal combo went from 7.9 to 7.7k

C.lk S.mk, s.hp, j. hp , j.hk, C.mp, c.hp, H shadow, s.mk, s.hp, j.mk, j.hk. s.lk/s.lp,c.mk, c.hp, H Drill, Drill super.

EDIT: with hitconfirms retail is like 7.4 retail to 7.2k so no real difference with me
 
Zidiane said:
I'm still not sure how the game decides who wins if two Pummel Horses connect on the same frame, though.
I have made it my mission to find an answer to this.
 
Adeveis said:
I have made it my mission to find an answer to this.

I know in SF2 when 2 throws meet the game just randomly decides who wins, 50/50. I think that's how it works in SG.

Still they have to connect on the exact same frame for that to matter. Doesn't come up all that often.
 
I think excella should be buffed because it whiffs sometimes when it looks like it should hit and it loses to too many things for the kind of reward you get off it (nearly none since you need the corner for a combo or a meter for dynamo and it sends them fullscreen).

I was thinking maybe make the arm invincible.
 
Man you guys are losing like 200 damage and I'm losing like 800. Then again, I only cared for my combo starting from j.lp-> j.hk which scaled my combo right away, the rest of my combos did similar damage I believe. So that's probably fine and I can deal. I still hope we can mess around with shadow a bit more.

worldjem said:
I think excella should be buffed because it whiffs sometimes when it looks like it should hit and it loses to too many things for the kind of reward you get off it (nearly none since you need the corner for a combo or a meter for dynamo and it sends them fullscreen).

I was thinking maybe make the arm invincible.
lol this would be a pretty crazy change.
Zidiane said:
@Bella's MGR Nerf

Not saying don't touch it, just saying that I don't think it's that good, or something you can throw out all the time unless your opponent is being predictable (except I guess if you have safe DHC's and meter to blow).

Wasn't that I thought it was broken or too good or anything, just weird and out of place if that makes sense. Bella in the corner + assist with the ability to command grab and then cancel it on reaction to certain things with super was like, just weird. lool. The invincibility itself, I don't have a problem with it.
 
I still want to try changing the hitbox on MK shadow to only be on the vice and allow most of the cast to crouch under it.
 
It seems like Fukua can still do mid screen double snaps with j.HK? At least on double anyway.
 
d3v said:
One of the reasons I like playing Fukua is because I don't have to focus much on trying to eke out damage by doing complex combos and can instead focus more on playing neutral and/or zoning my opponents out.
Dreamepitaph said:
my optimal combo went from 7.9 to 7.7k
EDIT: with hitconfirms retail is like 7.4 retail to 7.2k so no real difference with me
dekillsage said:
the rest of my combos did similar damage I believe.
So yeah. minus 200-400 dmg on average, I am fine with.
Much less on j.HK confirms I am also fine with, since that means I can leave j.HK as a good tool ("good", already not overhead etc).
CH shadows giving you 1125 instead of 1350/1500 helps, too.
And yes, shadows can continue to be looked at, s'what the next bit that you don't have yet does. I don't like allowing people to crouch under MK shadow @RemiKz because it's already a mid and realistically you're not standing up much if you're defending...

@d3v
Your reasoning doesn't make any sense to me. If there is more damage to be done and you're not doing it, then you aren't playing as well as you could when you land a hit, and you will always be more effective once you do hit if you can deal more damage. It's why nobody does Timeslip combos with Cable. :^( But you never HAVE to focus on damage to play any character, that's some kinda weird personal hangup. I usually don't learn optimal anything for anyone I play, I focus on what I can do consistently, and I find doing nonstandard stuff throws off people I play against.
She's still just as easy to land hits with and nothing mid-level really changed in difficulty so...yeah.

@ashxu
You mean with the point dead, right? Not a snap...?

@worldjem
I would be okay removing/reducing the arm hitbox before 1st active on Excella as a test.
I would not be okay giving her better combo options off it midstage. MGR = free combo, DD = F+HP / free combo with F+HP and certain assists / damage with meter / damage + combo with meter + certain assists, Excella = damage with meter / damage + combo with meter + certain assists. It is her worse option intentionally, for two reasons: one, it beats up-back, an option that is very powerful in SG and thus often a panic choice, so as soon as someone stops doing it you can land ground command throws; and two, since ground/air command throw is a 50/50, this way if the opponent needs to make a guess they can make one with less payoff on purpose. If MGR and Excella gave the same payoff anywhere, randomness becomes that much better.
 
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oh sorry, i meant point dead, my bad.

hmm, nevermind then. I vaguely remember some sort of double snap/assist kill business being removed but i think i glossed over it back then so i got confused. It was decently awhile ago.
 
ashxu said:
I vaguely remember some sort of double snap/assist kill business being removed
A snapped assist has to reach the wall within 15f to remain on the stage otherwise they will leave when they touch the wall, and if the point is snapped with the assist in hitstun and the assist is not hit by the snap, the assist will immediately fall down and become invincible. So midscreen actual double-snaps should not be present anymore, unless I TOTALLY screwed something up, but with point dead you can still do stuff. S'why I asked for clarification. :^)
 
I don't know why the assist kill mechanics just flew over my head. I've mostly just been focusing on wall assist snaps/kills so I never really thought about it, whoops.


Also 15f is about slightly more than half a screen away, interesting.
 
Mike_Z said:
A snapped assist has to reach the wall within 15f to remain on the stage otherwise they will leave when they touch the wall, and if the point is snapped with the assist in hitstun and the assist is not hit by the snap, the assist will immediately fall down and become invincible. So midscreen actual double-snaps should not be present anymore, unless I TOTALLY screwed something up, but with point dead you can still do stuff. S'why I asked for clarification. :^)


520e62b1c739f.png
 
dekillsage said:
Wasn't that I thought it was broken or too good or anything, just weird and out of place if that makes sense. Bella in the corner + assist with the ability to command grab and then cancel it on reaction to certain things with super was like, just weird. lool. The invincibility itself, I don't have a problem with it.
Can't you do the same thing with hp lnl + assist? It loses to grabs, but so does MGR (most of the time). You can cancel into showstopper if you've confirmed they aren't in the air before your assist, and you also beat non-metered reversals much better, probably without even using meter if you got the right assist.
Mike_Z said:
I would be okay removing/reducing the arm hitbox before 1st active on Excella as a test.
YAAAAAAAAAAY!
 
Mike_Z said:
I would be okay removing/reducing the arm hitbox before 1st active on Excella as a test.
What would this entail? Looking at this hitbox, it already doesn't have an arm hitbox before the first active frame. I'm pretty sure hitgrabs already don't trade with regular hits by definition, so it might as well be invincible as far as that frame is concerned
OJ6Suik.png

Q4e8pGA.png
 
Zidiane said:
Can't you do the same thing with hp lnl + assist? It loses to grabs, but so does MGR (most of the time). You can cancel into showstopper if you've confirmed they aren't in the air before your assist, and you also beat non-metered reversals much better, probably without even using meter if you got the right assist.
Do Cerebella players really take all this crazy good stuff for granted?
Being able to counter-super with a slow armored move that is negative on block and being able to counter-super with a long-ass range 10f command grab that is also a mixup is a pretty significant difference
 
zeknife said:
Being able to counter-super with a slow armored move that is negative on block and being able to counter-super with a long-ass range 10f command grab that is also a mixup is a pretty significant difference
lnl is prety safe on block. The only things that can punish it are 5 frame normals (done in one specific frame) and a handful of supers. But, we aren't talking about hp lnl, we're talking about hp lnl+assist. Most of the most popular assists can be paired with hp lnl to make it safe (lp updo and pillar don't, as far as I've tested). And MGR flat out misses at close ranges, which is probably the case when your back is to the corner and you are going for that option that'll get you out of pressure (meaning, it's function as a grab means nothing - you'd be better off with Devil Horns). And, what with it's vulnerable startup frames, you are risking getting Double Snapped for calling your not-fully-invincible move at the same time as your assist (you already have your back to the corner, so c.lk, medium, snap), whereas with LNL you can super on reaction to the attacker's c.lk/IAD overhead/do-nothing-trying-to-bait-a-mashed-reversal reset.

Maybe you misread (or just hate bella), but to be extra clear; I'm not comparing MGR to hp lnl, I'm comparing the option of hp lnl+assist xx counter super to MGR+assist xx counter super as a means of getting out of corner pressure. I think that hp lnl has clear advantages in this scenario.
 
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Zidiane said:
Maybe you misread (or just hate bella), but to be extra clear; I'm not comparing MGR to hp lnl, I'm comparing the option of hp lnl+assist xx counter super to MGR+assist xx counter super as a means of getting out of corner pressure. I think that hp lnl has clear advantages in this scenario.
well I misread too, I thought you were talking about bella doing oki in the corner.
you also beat non-metered reversals much better
when I read this, I'm usually pretty safe thinking you're talking about bella being the offender. Not the one with the back against the corner.
 
Man when I was talking about MGR I wasn't talking about using it as a reversal and when your back is in the corner wtf
 
so, was that solo recoverable health patch approved or not?
 
No one knows what anyone is talking about. So, business as usual.
 
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One thing about Fukua's M Shadow is that is so tall that if you try to approach you have to block. Parasoul can't even super jump over it reliably. Since we are looking at shadows maybe looking at the block time if you block it in the air or if you block it in the air you fall to the ground faster or you fall towards Fukua kind of like Peacock's item drop.

That's my only opinion on Fukua atm don't know how relevant it is. Please don't hate me and I'm sorry if I've wasted anyone's time.
 
akindhobo said:
Since we are looking at shadows maybe looking at the block time if you block it in the air or if you block it in the air you fall to the ground faster or you fall towards Fukua kind of like Peacock's item drop.

That's my only opinion on Fukua atm don't know how relevant it is. Please don't hate me and I'm sorry if I've wasted anyone's time.
i wouldn't mind even that. WHICH reminds me. what's the rules on characters falling faster during the if you air block a move
 
On the topic of Fukua combos

cr.LK starter - Retail 7.4K, Beta 7.3K

j.HK starter - Retail 7.9K, Beta 6.5K (Ouch! lost 1.4K)

Combo is
cr.LK (or j.HK) > cr.MP > cr.HP
cr.MP > cr.HP > M Shadow
j.HK
s.MK > s.HP
j.HP > j.HK
s.LP > s.MP > s.HK > H Drill > QCF+KK
 
TheGamaniac said:
The old optimized combos don't work anymore due to the shadow recovery, but the so-far-as-I've-figured current optimal combos are in that range. Damage went from:

Corner
  • Old: 8609 (cr.LKMP s.HK, delay high-OTG H Shadow, s.HK M-Shadow, j.HK, s.HP j.HPHK, s.LKLKHK L-Shadow, s.LPLK cr.MK s.HK H-Drill Superdrill). This would do 8290 with current shadow damage.
  • New: 8287 (cr.LK s.MKHK L-Shadow, s.HP j.HK, s.MKHP j.HPHK, s.LKLK cr.MK s.HK, OTG cr.LP s.LK cr.MK s.HK H-Drill Superdrill)
Midscreen:
  • Old: 8292 (cr.LKMPHP H-Shadow, run, high-OTG cr.HK L-Shadow, s.MK cr.HP M-Shadow, dashjump j.HPHK, cr.MPHP, dash, s.LKLK cr.MKHP H-Drill Superdrill). This would do 8006 with current shadow damage.
  • New: 7955. (cr.LKMPHP, slightly delay M-Shadow, s.HP j.HK, s.MKHP, late j.HPHK, s.LKLK cr.HP L-Shadow, s.LPLK cr.MK s.HP, late Airdrill, OTG cr.HK)
I also got somewhere around 13350 from an L5 grab, but the damage will probably be greatly reduced against middleweights and heavyweights since the 75% j.HK scaling overrides the 200% starter bonus which forces shadow and cr.HP juggling. I can't help but feel the combos are a bit standardized now, but that may just be me. I'll certainly miss the reliable re-OTG for style, but I can cope.
How are you hitting any shadow after HP?

EDIT: Unless you mean c.MP and c.HP as well
 
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Jason said:
I know in SF2 when 2 throws meet the game just randomly decides who wins, 50/50. I think that's how it works in SG.

Still they have to connect on the exact same frame for that to matter. Doesn't come up all that often.
If you CH throw someone out of throw startup it techs. According to the wiki anyways.

Never confirmed this is the case with airthrows, and although it never feels like it works that way, I would assume so.
 
What about a minimum range on it?

I don't mind it being OP at a certain range (to the contrary, I like it), but just decrease that window of OP'ness. Frustrating as hell to finally get in on Fukua only for mk shadow to go active right as you're about to hit her.

There's no range at which the current mk shadow feels weak (except full screen where it can't quite hit).
 
Yes lets suggest more nerfs to the character who has gotten nerf after nerf
 
I dunno someone good would have to use her.

EDIT: right that's exactly what I mean dekillsage in the post underneath me.
I didn't want to flood the thread so I just edited this post.
 
Or rather...
the other half of her (taluda's the best)

edit: so like can you do stuff like
Scenario:

Opponents incoming in the corner, call copter 50/50 cross under or not mix up -> if its blocked dash back + move head back -> st.hk -> kick it at the new angles you can hit it at? -> Pressure + next assist call???

 
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Hilary said:
If you CH throw someone out of throw startup it techs. According to the wiki anyways.

Never confirmed this is the case with airthrows, and although it never feels like it works that way, I would assume so.

Yeah I was talking about command throws that are untechable.

Obviously if two normal throws collide you get a throw tech.
 
If Taluda can win with half a character I'm sure that character is good.

(This isn't me saying nerf Fortune, just to be clear)
 
Mike_Z said:
@worldjem
I would be okay removing/reducing the arm hitbox before 1st active on Excella as a test.
I would not be okay giving her better combo options off it midstage. MGR = free combo, DD = F+HP / free combo with F+HP and certain assists / damage with meter / damage + combo with meter + certain assists, Excella = damage with meter / damage + combo with meter + certain assists. It is her worse option intentionally, for two reasons: one, it beats up-back, an option that is very powerful in SG and thus often a panic choice, so as soon as someone stops doing it you can land ground command throws; and two, since ground/air command throw is a 50/50, this way if the opponent needs to make a guess they can make one with less payoff on purpose. If MGR and Excella gave the same payoff anywhere, randomness becomes that much better.

Yeah, I didn't mean "let me combo off excella midscreen" I meant "make it more reliable as a mixup tool" since the reward for it is so low, it seems like it should be winning more than it's losing.
 
dekillsage said:
Yes lets suggest more nerfs to the character who has gotten nerf after nerf

It would be in lieu of the mk.shadow frame changes. It would make it less good up close but prevent her from feeling "heavy" while still making it phenomenal at anything greater than it's minimum range.

Or we can keep the worse recovery, etc on it. I don't particularly care.
 
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