Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

[dekillsage]

I see

 

[ashxu]

Somebody teach me how this Big Band fellow works if A-Train is somehow a viable option vs air fireball with any type distance between the two characters.

You can be a sick cunt and parry full screen fireballs but Fukua isn't Peacock and can't keep you at full screen, if you step into A-Train range and Fukua dares to be predictable you can A-Trian her.

 

[Dhoppler]

I can appreciate an answer like that. Parries are something I'm trying to bring live. It hasn't been working out for me, but I'll keep on trying.

 

[Spencer]

Yeah, the idea that Fukua fireballs were punishable full screen by anyone is... crazy.

I don't have an opinion of how they are in beta (or Fukua in general)... but her old fireballs were 100% "why the hell not" from anywhere over half screen.

 

[zarkingphoton]

Yeah, the idea that Fukua fireballs were punishable full screen by anyone is... crazy.

Yes, absolutely shenanigans. She recovers so fast, you can't even get her with a bandwagon on reaction when she's in the air.

 

[Dime]

Well... How does everyone feel about the new upback change? I literally havent played anyone since it came out so im finally getting to play people... And yeah... It feels so bad to me. Allows stupid movement patterns that are hard to/near impossible to punish and is changing the game into an upback and airthrow fest whereas before if my opponent wiffed ajumpin from bad spacing or reactions i could pressure them as they landed with like painwheels j.mp and pin them to the ground and run mixups... Now i really cant do that at all anymore.

Offense seems holed up and sf4 style footsies are like taking over (bait x10 then do something) rather than a dynamic neutral like it used to be.


Im finding myself just dash jump throwing all day and dash jump late throwing all day. Its seriously mind numbing boring because it takes ranged offensive footsies kinda out of the picture since it just gives the opponent a free jump back while calling whatever assist.


Tldr:

It feels like the footsies have been dumbed down to airthrows, empty assist calls, ground throws and the occasional air tech counter. But thats like it. Pressing buttons seems to do alot less now as far as normals are concerned and that makes things boring from where im standing.

 

[Mr Peck]

The beta upback change is by far my favourite change in the beta. I love everything about it, and it's the main thing that I miss when I have to play retail. It means I can play more of a ground game without worrying about being glued in place from any air attack. Also, getting hit feels much more fair now that you can block during jump startup (including blocking projectiles and assists), and you can still easily catch people out of upback using lows. I wish that Cerebella's pummel horse still grabbed people out of upback as that was one of the main ways I used the move, but that's not a huge issue in comparison to all the things I like about it.

 

[Dhoppler]

I think I noticed the upback change one time and that was the day it was implemented. I still have the same habits and I still get blown up for upbacking excessively. I do remember thinking it was more fair now that I wasn't locked down by an incoming attack that was way out of range. So all in all, I like it.

 

[Dime]

Yeah i magine fukua and peacock players would love the change because it gives them an extra form of defense, which is actually a big part of my gripe. It affects the offensive characters more than the ranged keepaway ones since they at least can still press buttons and shoot fireballs.

If it were mvc2 then i doubt id mind as much since that game has ludicrous ways to defeat upback via not even really dealing with it (spiral swords, sentinel normals doing chip, storm running away and building meter for free then hail chipping you out then doing it again and again, cable having hyper viper beam horizontal beam in the air doing mad chip and having his gunshot as a horizontal air pressure move.


It seems like the characters in sg just arent made to deal with this. Like fukua can and is probably the best at it since she designed to play a bit like cable, but what do other characters do against people that just upback all day at midrange and call assists and run away? Punish the assist and counter call and airthrow are like the only options that are available, but with no good ranged play, that becomes extremely stagnant extremely quickly and just bores me to tears. I adjusted to my opponent doing this and just airthrew him all day, but it was boring and i was getting penalized via meter and scaling for opening him up that way.

I mean if this change goes through which at this point i doubt it wouldnt, cant we get some sort of compensation for how powerful it is as a defensive tactic from midrange? Like unscaled airthrows if the opponent has no undizzy meter built.... or.... Something?

Im just feeling like i cant get offense started at all except for airthrows and im getting punished for that as well... And it makes the game unfun for me.... Very unfun, most unfun change ive ever played, because this isnt designed like marvel that had really good answers for upback whihc sg really doesnt.... Besides airthrow and maybe sing assist (which only really sets up airthrows anyways).

 

[dekillsage]

Yeah imagine fukua and peacock players would love the change because it gives them an extra form of defense, which is actually a big part of my gripe.

Nope. Air fireballs used to cause preblock, which was one of the reasons she's kinda dumb in retail. Fukua's defense is still bad so don't sweat it :P

 

[Mr Peck]

It seems like the characters in sg just arent made to deal with this. Like fukua can and is probably the best at it since she designed to play a bit like cable, but what do other characters do against people that just upback all day at midrange and call assists and run away? Punish the assist and counter call and airthrow are like the only options that are available, but with no good ranged play, that becomes extremely stagnant extremely quickly and just bores me to tears. I adjusted to my opponent doing this and just airthrew him all day, but it was boring and i was getting penalized via meter and scaling for opening him up that way.

If your opponent automatically jumps away every time you get close to them in the air, either approach them on the ground or just laugh as they corner themselves for free. If they throw out an assist and run away from it, punish it. If you think landing a scaled combo that can lead into resets is being penalized for beating someone who blocks, I don't know what to say. You'd think the region that invented tick throws and fuzzy guard (credit to Smokey) would be able to come up with something to deal with a playstyle as simple as that.

 

[Woofly]

To be fair he did say he could deal with it, just that he finds it boring.

 

[Dime]

@peck

I said what the "answer" is. Airthrows and... Airthrows and counter calls....aka boring stuff aka the stuff you just posted as an answer to the answer that i already gave. I want to press buttons much more freely than what is becoming acceptable.


The problem is this is just not fun. It isnt in any way dynamic for me. Its rote as hell. Upback solves all problems outside of low attack range on the ground and dash jump airthrow range in the air. Unless your are... Peacock or fukua, maybe parasoul.


I do find it funny that the people defending it are 3 peacocks and a fukua, but it might just be a coincidence or whatever.

Like why should upback be an everything defense outside of dash jump airthrow range?

And im less mad about upback as i am that its in the game with so few direct ways to combat it.

 

[dekillsage]

Playing neutral is boring I agree.

 

[Dime]

Playing nondynamic neutral is boring I agree.

FTFY

 

[IsaVulpes]

I do find it funny that the people defending it are 3 peacocks and a fukua

Since your complaint, the following people have posted:
MrPeck, Dekillsage, Dhoppler, Woofly
Woofly didn't really comment on anything and does not play Peacock
Are you bad at counting or am I missing something

Riddle me this:
Why should
1) Something that moves you (Upback) not move you when the opponent is pressing a button three screens high in the air
2) Something that blocks High (Upback) lose to things that are Mid/High, just because they are a projectile/assist/far away

If someone jumps back every time you jump in, they are in the corner after two jumps and can't jumpback anymore
If they don't, the only real difference is that they don't get hit anymore randomly (by things their input should block, and not something the attacker planned for) and that you have to think about pressing your buttons a bit, rather than always coming down with some high active frame disjointed normal that they can't do shit about
Why are Peacock and Fukua -aka the characters who gain the most out of projectiles randomly hitting upback and have subpar mixup tools (look at those Peacock lows!)- supposed to be the ones benefiting from this change the most, exactly?

Oh and before you note another Peacock, I dropped her recently! Sorry

E: Look, a basic example is Parasoul
Previously she would jump in with jLP-jHP
If you tried to upback, 12f active jLP would glue you to the ground
If you tried to AA with a normal, most of those just lose since the jLP kinda got an incredible hitbox
So the attacker does 7LP and your defensive resources are
- Block then pushblock (not really helping you)
- DP (kind of commital)
- DP assist (less commital but still rather risky)
Now instead, the Defender has the option to upback, blocking the jLP in the air, and if Parasoul autopiloted the jHP chain she will get punished
Do you really think this is less dynamic, more braindead, what have you.. just because the attacker has to actually think about anything rather than pressing good air button and yayyyyy

 

[Mr Peck]

I do find it funny that the people defending it are 3 peacocks and a fukua, but it might just be a coincidence or whatever.

I honestly don't feel that the upback change benefits Peacock more than it benefits other characters. Peacock's projectiles no longer catch people out of upback, which means the only way she can catch people who upback is using her 14f low. Besides, she's far from the only character I use, but she is the character I struggle against the most so if anything I'd want her defensive options to be worse.

Anyway, sorry for starting an argument and being a jerk! I just strongly feel that giving everyone the ability to glue their opponent in place from the air made it far too easy to start your offense that way and I'm glad it was changed.

 

[keninblack]

Every character in this game bodies chicken guarding if you read it PLEASE calm down haha.

How hard is forward jump air grab? Outside of that you have a bunch of character specific stuff.

 

[Mr. X]

Since your complaint, the following people have posted:
MrPeck, Dekillsage, Dhoppler, Woofly
Woofly didn't really comment on anything and does not play Peacock
Are you bad at counting or am I missing something

He counted Peck twice.
Sage plays Fukua.

 

[Dime]

Since your complaint, the following people have posted:
MrPeck, Dekillsage, Dhoppler, Woofly
Woofly didn't really comment on anything and does not play Peacock
Are you bad at counting or am I missing something

Youre missing something. Probably the fact that i counted peanuts "like" on pecks post... Or something...

Riddle me this:
Why should
1) Something that moves you (Upback) not move you when the opponent is pressing a button three screens high in the air

It shouldnt. But im not talking about marvel superjump heights like the above hyperbolic statement. Im talking about single non super jump height. 3 screen height isnt even properly achievable in sg outside of painwheel mirrors and even then neither character is on the ground.

2) Something that blocks High (Upback) lose to things that are Mid/High, just because they are a projectile/assist/far away

I dont think these should "lose" to those things mentioned, but thats not what im talking about. Im talking about jump guarding moves that they would have previously been forced to ground block if they were holding upback. Also note, this was easy to get around previously by jumpjng forward and then blocking... No lockdown on the ground now, but you open yourself up to an airthrow. Its dynamic, requires actual thought, requires actual ability to space and make proper decisions based on differences in space. Not an all out get out of jail free card from midrange like it currently is.

If someone jumps back every time you jump in, they are in the corner after two jumps and can't jumpback anymore

True, if all they do is jump back. But if they double jump backwards, then jump forward and emptyjump plus assist, they dont corner themselves very quickly if at all. Also, if they jump forward from far out of range, then land, they can now jump out of ANY aerial pressure as they land. Except for airthrows.

If they don't, the only real difference is that they don't get hit anymore randomly (by things their input should block, and not something the attacker planned for) and that you have to think about pressing your buttons a bit, rather than always coming down with some high active frame disjointed normal that they can't do shit about

The only normal that ive ever felt anywhere near "cant do shit about" is bellas j.mp. No other normal has ever made me feel like i didnt have a dynamic choice of options for beating it. So i dont know where that last point comes from. I rarely if ever feel helpless in sg.

Why are Peacock and Fukua -aka the characters who gain the most out of projectiles randomly hitting upback and have subpar mixup tools (look at those Peacock lows!)- supposed to be the ones benefiting from this change the most, exactly?

Because they can still make upback block chip damage and can force upback to come to them and no longer be upback...

E: Look, a basic example is Parasoul
Previously she would jump in with jLP-jHP
If you tried to upback, 12f active jLP would glue you to the ground
If you tried to AA with a normal, most of those just lose since the jLP kinda got an incredible hitbox
So the attacker does 7LP and your defensive resources are
- Block then pushblock (not really helping you)
- DP (kind of commital)
- DP assist (less commital but still rather risky)
Now instead, the Defender has the option to upback, blocking the jLP in the air, and if Parasoul autopiloted the jHP chain she will get punished
Do you really think this is less dynamic, more braindead, what have you.. just because the attacker has to actually think about anything rather than pressing good air button and yayyyyy

My answers to that pre this upback change were:


Duck and punish the wiffed j.lp
Out range the j.lp
Jump forward into the j.lp and then pushblock it
Anticipate it and airsuper it
Jump forward into it and call an assist while blocking
Double jump over it in anticipation and pressure parasoul on her landing and since parasoul cant double jump, its a pretty good answer.
And last, some sort of grounded AA though that was really uncommon. The biggest thing was to just play spacing games with it and punish like that. The move is good but it never seemed that oppressive to me.


Also, as an aside, peacock has some REALLY good reset mixups, and as has been shown by sage, so does fukua.



@peck

You make a good point about not being able to glue an opponent down because that is "to easy" a way to start offense.

But:

Peacock and fukua can start their offense via a simple jump fireball from fukua, or a jump back j.hp from peacock... These are the EPITOME of non commital ways to start defense/offense.

So, dint take this the wrong way, but i find the "to easy" argument to be false on that basic level, and further, jumping backwards is about the easiest thing to do in the game and is much easier than gluing an opponent down to the ground via a jump attack. At least with the jump attack you can jump towards it or neutral jump, backwatds jump is non punishable if you dont already have near point blank proximity, so its like the easiest thing out there.

 

[Spencer]

I love the preblock change. It is likely my favorite change in the bets also.

I can't express the amount of nerd rage every time I'd get hit our of an upback by soid or cymbal

 

[Dime]

@Spencer


From what youve told me in the past, i gather that you are naturally a defensive player, so i would think that you would appreciate it for the high end deals with everything from midrange defensive strat, that it is.

Also:

I dont hate the upback change from every angle. I dont believe that fireballs and the like should hit upback and in fact i always felt that was stupid. What i feel like is that normals that are done from a single non super jump should still jail against a grounded opponent that is upbacking. Because you still have a plethora of options as a defender to not get jailed. But with the new upback change there IS NO set way to directly punish an upback done from midrange or one that is done against a regular jump, from outside of throw range.


Which, in the games that ive played have forced alot of throws at all times. I used to throw alot. Like alot. But not im throwing 10 times more than i used to. I want to get back to dynamic spacing and move using. Abusing airthrows to beat upback is neither.


So how do the offensive minded individuals that dont use keepaway characters feel about this change? Good? If so then tell me why pls.

Perhaps i "am" trippin and i just dont appreciate the obvious depth and subtleties of airthrow xn and assist counter ten times a game, positional depth of play like i should... or something.

 

[Spencer]

See I view it as more dynamic now.

While air throw is strong, it still requires a read (you won't be jumping up into any actives for example).

The old way meant almost immediate block stun and little "tricks" for those in the know (like PWs charged j.hp).

In any case, I'm definitely a more defensive player (though I've never been much of a chickenblocker... I try to go low and react to highs). I like the change because to me it feels more natural than the old way which always felt unintuitive when you'd get rooted into place.

Not to mention on a balance side, it kind of allows already good moves to double dip. A move with a lot of active frames is already awesome. Give it the ability to root for those frames in the event that you are just throwing it out, and it gets twice as good.

In the beta, I'm using (PW) j.lp and j.lk infinitely more than I was before. They were always good, but now they are damn necessary.

 

[Sydoh]

I'd imagine rushdown appreciates the change as much as anyone because it makes it easier to use chicken block to land cancel hits to get in on zoning they would otherwise be totally locked down in.

 

[Jason]

I do miss catching people who up+back with Big Band and Bella's gigantic reach but I'll gladly trade that for not getting hit by projectiles when I'm trying to up+back.

Overall, it changes the game way less than I initially thought it would and I think its a good change overall even if a few tools got a bit weaker as a result.

 

[Spencer]

even if a few tools got a bit weaker as a result.

Some were buffed too. Lows for days.

 

[ClarenceMage]

So how do the offensive minded individuals that dont use keepaway characters feel about this change? Good? If so then tell me why pls.

Even though I have a defensive playstyle now, I've always defaulted to rushing that shit down and always wanting to rush that shit down. Even my defensive playstyle is used to facilitate better rushing that shit down.

My initial reaction was that it made Val's offense worse since I can't staple people to the ground with j.HP and force them to block it. However, recently I've been forced to use more air-to-airs, use more ground movement like run up jab jab to compensate for it, as well as being comfortable with taking up someone's space if they upback away.

My reaction with Painwheel is that it makes people 99x easier to air throw because the upback change makes people want to upback her air normals in blockstrings after you fly, letting you easily see when they like to upback and air throwing them for it. It also opens up things like if they successfully evade an air attack by upbacking away, then trying to come down for a punish, c.MP armouring it pre-emptively.

She could always cMP armour anti-air but this specific situation of taking advantage of anti-airing a opponent trying to attack you upbacking away from an air normal doesn't exist in retial- they just get stapled to the ground.

My reaction with Filia, Is that I didn't mind the change, since if someone's in the air it immediately cuts out a lot of vectors in their air movement and makes them much much easier to read and get in that ass. Honestly, that's the biggest change gameplay right here I guess. You survive against dumb shit (un-upbackable assists, projectiles, Titan Knuckles, and Filia s.HK's) but now also if you use it too much instead of good ground positioning vs air, your movement becomes far easier to predict.

This makes ground game much more important in retail in a very roundabout way, since this opens up more options from positioning on the ground since attacks no longer staple you to it if they're doing an air attack, opening up jumpback air-to-airs or chicken block punishes, and more of an ability to live when you're in the opponent's face. This capacity for being safer in your opponent's grill probably actually makes the game MORE offensive in the long run.

 

[Telvanni]

Should I bother posting problems with the AI here? Like... half of the cast not blocking during recovery?

 

[Spencer]

My reaction with Filia, Is that I didn't mind the change, since if someone's in the air it immediately cuts out a lot of vectors in their air movement and makes them much much easier to read and get in that ass.

Spoiler

 

[Dime]

Yeah i dont agree, but ill just have to accept the game for what it is now (bad) and move on and adjust. I got peoples opinions on the matter and its super telling that 80% answerers and likes are peacocks and fukuas with like a very few non peacocks and stuff, but either way, it just shows me what i needed to know.



I already knew all the arguments for the change that i got in here. Some i consider more than suspect for various reasons (lol upbacking against projectiles when you are going to be jumping forward against them cause, you know, you have to get "in" not stay out) but i digress. I of course realize that upbacking against projectiles to get airborn and then move forward is the strat, but i dont in any way see how that is hampering peacock or fukua, not that it matters, i dont think either character is op or anything, but yeah, very easy to see why those characters would want the change when they can easily do something about it other than proximity bait and airthrow when close, and it helps their defense more than it hinders their offense.

But i digress, people have been trying to turn the game into a turtle fest for a long time and i guess thats how the community wants it so i just have to adjust and make a team that takes advantage of the new easy.

 

[DDB]

Yes

The game is a turtle fest.

That's why 90% of the characters are rushdown-oriented.

 

[Mr. X]

Should I bother posting problems with the AI here? Like... half of the cast not blocking during recovery?

Bug Forum

 

[earlfriend]

Should I bother posting problems with the AI here? Like... half of the cast not blocking during recovery?

It's been touched upon in this thread somewhat already, but if you want to add your own feedback over there too it can't hurt.

 

[Dhoppler]

That's right folks, none of us Peacock/Fukua players play other characters that benefit from being able jump back and air dash forward or double jump forward as a way to reposition ourselves advantageously. Nope, we're just a bunch of weak minded zoners looking for an easy way out from the oh-so-gdlk players that can lock us down with a button that's a full jump away from us.

We even infiltrated the ranks of other players with suspect excuses like upbacking projectiles. How would that benefit anybody outside the common occurrence of multiple projectiles where the ground based one will set you up for the next volley? Why else would you upback against a zoner? Nevermind the fact that most of the cast have aerial options that would move them forward after a jump and neatly dodge some of the onslaught.

No no, this is all about people that are too chicken shit to do anything but chicken guard, despite there already being two options to beat it clean at close range and other options to make it disadvantageous otherwise.

Good talk y'all.

 

[Mike_Z]

I also think fortune should be able to cancel headless fiber on any hit. Please try in beta?

Worldjem likes this -> kiss of death.
Eh, we can try it. But still eh.

(car dropping on Birthdays) lmao yeah can anything be done about this?

Anyone got a video example of this? I'm GUESSING it's just that the hitstun is too short on the first four hits, which I did fix, but a video would help to check.

Here we go!

Fukua:
Fireballs having recovery sucks, because once they miss or hit you want to use them again right away to keep controlling neutral.
[snip] the potential meter gain is not worth the loss of its old utility.

It is a nerf. It is not a thing you are meant to be happy with as a player of the character, it is a thing other people are meant to be happy with as players against the character. The metergain is a small compensation rather than a justification for the nerf; the cooldown is the entire point.

Normals I would normally use to anti air are just not working anymore.(cr.hp and st.hp) I'm either getting hit or trading which is very frustrating. I believe this is the result of some of her moves getting hurtboxes, but if that's not the case then its just me being super bitter and bad whenever I play Fukua in beta now. I dunno

Oh hey, good catch, s.HP didn't receive the same back-to-normal-first-active-frame as Filia s.HP, lemme do that! Though c.HP has not changed since April 6th 2014. Whoa, haha.

H Drill does not need the extra start up. People end up safe jumping her/ getting more time to throw her way more than I feel they should, considering some of her normals are much more risky to use as anti airs now, and the follow up super doesn't cause a sliding knockdown anymore and it doesn't have hitstop anymore.

This is probably fair.
However, "it doesn't have hitstop anymore"? Super fireball didn't change.

MK shadow dragging an opponent in the air on block is the worst too.

That is also a nerf, yes. She's less of a zoner overall.

Beowulf:
I hit someone with level 3 and as I was punching them I got hit by Osis Spiral assist in the back.

2nd uppercut is wrongly vulnerable if 1st uppercut hit landed, another good catch.

Game stuff:
lmao the alpha countering upon dying -> assist pops up to die still happens. No more rainbows though.

Yeah... :^S
[edit] GOT IT TO HAPPEN I THINK I CAN FIX IT OH MAN....

Thank you for reading my post

Thank you for posting relevant things! Is there a god or demon I may sacrifice something to so that it continues in the future? :^)

I'm GONNA MAKE THE REST THIS RESPONSE A SEPARATE POST because it touches on different issues.

 

[Mike_Z]

things about upback

Air preblock change makes Painwheel specifically less easy to use by staying in the air all the time since people can chicken-block things, but if you are doing a LOW ATTACK (key words: low attack, grounded, not jumping) then you still stick them to the floor and hit them, from the same range you could before. PW does have those, I am almost positive.
I am surprised that in all your posts about "what you have to do to people who upback all day is airthrow and man that is boring" you never once mentioned doing a low attack. It still works 100% of the time.
All her grounded charge-able normals do the same thing, so you can even like charge c.HP and call a low-hitting assist.

Other people already said this and you ignored it, but you shouldn't, since the easiest way to hit people who are jumping all the time still exists.
Complaints about changing the neutral won't be taken seriously if you do not use all the tools available to you, including ones that simply require down+button.

 

[dekillsage]

Man I don't know how to edit posts to reply to them at all lol

Does Fukua's ground fireball not have hitstop in retail? One of the changes was "Super fireball no longer causes sliding. Ground version is blockable post-flash (air already was)." Or is that something else? And yeah I know they're nerfs, but I figured I'd give my 2 cents after playing her for a pretty good amount of time in the beta.(and be sad about it ayyy)

 

[Mike_Z]

Does Fukua's ground fireball not have hitstop in retail?

Ah, no, you're right. In retail the very first frame where it's tiny is inside hitstop.

ayyy

NO PLEASE, STAY WITH US!

 

[Yomabuddy]

One thing that I started noticing in light of the meter build post Mike made was how meter scales/builds overall, and I noticed that for throwing the opponent, both the attacker and the defender gain the same amount of meter, and that five Filia throws give you (and coincidentally, the opponent) a stock. Would it a possible experiment in the future to change it so that for throwing five times with Filia the attacker gets a full meter while the defender is a sliver out (as much as the defender builds by getting hit by Filia c.LK)? I'm suggesting a universal change to how much meter throws build BTW, not character specific.

If my idea is dumb, and it probably is, please let me know.

 

[dekillsage]

Is Beowulf done or is he going to get more ways to build up hype? I heard throw enders were supposed to give him some, is that true?