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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

It means you can now punish it for free on block, you can already mash out of it for free so it wasn't exactly safe.

HK is now realllllly punishable on whiff, it was already pretty punishable but it is reactable on sight even by me, so basically all Giant Steps are ridiculously high on the risk side of risk reward now.
 
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Oh ok, thanks guys.


I dont really understand the decision to make it punishable on block when so many other characters have fast overheads that are relatively unpunishable on block... But then again i do since BB is the games heaviest poker with max ranged knuckles and jump back cymbals plus the whole brass knuckle on hit dash up and low/throw wakeup game guess without even needing an assist.


So... Hmmmm. Interesting either way. At least he isnt just like parasouls rushdown strategy anymore... They kinda flowchart the same with an assist like lk bomber.
 
I guess this would be the place to post this?
KhaosMuffins said:
I just had a great idea (that's probably not gonna get in but oh Yeezus I want this).

What if after launching the head with s.HK, Fortune could send it flying like a volleyball with j.HK? It'd give her another way to move the head around and allow it to approach from different angles.
Just remove the hitbox on the head when she spikes it in this way, and I think this could be a fun, potentially non-overpowering utility tool that gives her another way to position the head.
 
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What in the actual fuck.

People have made this sort of hyperbolic statement before, but if this stays I can't defend the game anymore. This is the sort of scrub-level marketing that caused the existence of Ultras, X-Factor, Mega Crash, and basically every other bad mechanic. It didn't deserve to be dignified with any ingame experiment of any kind whatsoever. This sets a really, really bad precedent.

In all honesty, short of green knockdown I disagree with moves functioning differently as an assist at all, end of story. But that's a whole different ballgame from this shit.

Edit: Why is Fiber Upper unaffected?
 
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Broken Loose said:
What in the actual fuck.

People have made this sort of hyperbolic statement before, but if this stays I can't defend the game anymore. This is the sort of scrub-level marketing that caused the existence of Ultras, X-Factor, Mega Crash, and basically every other bad mechanic. It didn't deserve to be dignified with any ingame experiment of any kind whatsoever. This sets a really, really bad precedent.

In all honesty, short of green knockdown I disagree with moves functioning differently as an assist at all, end of story. But that's a whole different ballgame from this shit.

Edit: Why is Fiber Upper unaffected?

Notice the note Mike made in the update comments? Don't expect this to last for more than a day or two, lol. I think it's more of an attempt to prove a point at this stage.

Also, it's the beta where things like this can happen. But I'm positive that even if every single player loves it, it still won't stick around; remember being able to block if your stick was in neutral during super hit-stop? Players have to learn how to adapt to things at some point, there won't be constant changes to appease laziness.
 
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I can live without the ability to combo from pillar or updo but the block stun, eessssshhhh i hope that change doesn't go to consoles
 
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dama624 said:
You guys are making me sad. Yell at each other about DPs privately, or in IsaVulpes' thread.

Squigly's #22 is back, but EARTHWORM JIM PALETTE WHEN

I'm sorry that Palette was ugly as hell, even though I love me some cheesy 90's platforming goodness.
 
Jason said:
I'm sorry that Palette was ugly as hell, even though I love me some cheesy 90's platforming goodness.
That palette, good sir, was one of the few reasons to charge Serpent.
 
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Well after a few matches with a buddy on his computer I have to say I don't have to respect those assists nearly at all now compared to before lol. As a solo player this is a good thing since one of the many challenges is maneuvering through the assist lockdown/get-off-me assist tools during the neutral game, but I disagree with these changes. While from face value it's tempting to tone down the arguably best assists in the game, the way it went about it felt wrong.

1. It was pure nerfs from loss of invis to decreased stun
2. No buffs for compensation to entertain the idea that the nerfs were worth it.
3. Bomber was already nerfed severely before it doesn't need another kick while down.
4. Reversal assists in this game would be gimped in general with this mindset if no invisibles and as a by-product would decrease the already limiting defensive options in this very offensive driven game.


Maybe the decreased stun can stay, but even then I'm not sure about it. I typically have little problem with those three big assists (especially hornet guys this isn't vanilla) because I adjust accordingly on the chosen assist and bait my opponent to make a stupid assist call.

Alternate idea: Reversal Assists keeps their original properties but as a tradeoff have an increased cool-down period between uses. Sounds inelegant as hell (no more then this experiment though), but if those assists comes out less frequently then naturally the complaints for them would die down some.

In any case I doubt Mike would let these changes fly and mostly likely did this to gauge feedback regarding a popular complaint and what better place to test this then in the beta.
 
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Number 13 said:
Alternate idea: Reversal Assists keeps their original properties but as a tradeoff have an increased cool-down period between uses. Sounds inelegant as hell (no more then this experiment though), but if those assists comes out less frequently then naturally the complaints for them would die down some.

This was actually experimented with a while back. It was pretty awkward.

Lets say I have two assists, one is a DP and the other is some kind of lockdown assist. Now when I call my assists they have very different timings on when they become available again after use. It feels annoying as hell and you're always glancing at that red dot under your character portrait instead of being able to get a feel for when the assist is available again.

If there is going to be a change to how assist lockout works, it will probably have to apply to all assists equally.
 
Yeah it sounds inelegant as hell, but recently the game has been heading to the direction of practicality over elegance. They would have to make some distinction between a reversal and non reversal assist in the assist menu/tutorial/training etc if these kind of changes will be a normal thing.
 
With the new assist lockout and health regen changes... this seems to really really really hurt Big Band H Brass. Since Armor incurs lockout and big band won't regenerate health for 5(? if Im understanding right) frames as well as the bigger lockout really seems to hurt that assist as getting hit and armoring things is the usual. I haven't tested it so maybe its not that big a deal but it is interesting that at least on paper it seems like a big change to H brass. For anyone that plays H Brass in Beta do you think this is really negative for Big Band, H Brass? does it matter? Im sure Mike has already thought of this just wondering what people on the ground have seen.
 
The changes are super good (lockout stuff and blockstun nerf)! Thanks Mike!
 
I'm excited to test this stuff vs hardcore keep away Big Cock. Still need to figure out what to do if a Peacock with Fukua HP dart gets rolling though.
 
Oh Yeezus the new lockout feels long, even if it's only a second longer. I was playing Taluda a while ago and was running H LnL. I kept being surprised by how often I couldn't call an assist. Not really much more I can say at this point.
 
I think it would make sense for armored assists to only get the full lockout period if they take a hit that isn't armored (Whether that be a sweep, a multihit, or simply being hit during recovery), since taking hits is part of their purpose, as opposed to invincible assists that just phase through everything during their active period.

Perhaps combine this with fixing this bug mentioned in the thread that lead to these beta changes:
IsaVulpes said:
On the topic of the armor punches: There's currently a bug; caused by the "If an assist absorbs a hit, it gets locked out" stuff.
That's done by simply making them count as "hit", which has another effect, namely them instantly leaving after completing their move rather than doing the byebye wink thing.
This makes it really difficult to actually punish them as any character that has anything on the screen, ie all characters.

If that's fixed, they'd possibly/probably rate as fine *in my opinion*. Bleeding harder than other assists + being reaction counterable with armorbreaks would make them high risk/high reward options; strong choices that have a distinct list of counters (which isn't just "Well call your own DP assist")
 
@zeknife The armor assist taunt bug itself arose from having armored assists have lockout in the first place. So you're basically asking for a return to how they were before lockout.

I had suggested the armor assist lockout to Mike because without it, it seemed to make armor assists stronger in comparison to other assists since you could call it out much more often (this was from when lockout was first introduced back in July). We both questioned the side-effect of not having the taunt as it clearly made punishment harder, but no one seemed to notice until now when I told Isa about it and this recent Beta test.

Being able to hit an armor assist, avoid getting hit yourself, and taking advantage of the lockout time to close in and punish the point seemed like a good tradeoff for not being able to punish the assist itself after hitting it in armor. But from the user's side maybe it's too harsh? I don't know, but it's been nearly a year since the change was introduced and I haven't seen any complaints or really much comment on it until now, so I assume armor assist users were fine up to this point.
 
I just played some games in a beta lobby this morning, and I barely even noticed the increased lockout (and was using LnL assist). It certainly didn't feel like armored assists were suddenly "bad"; I still got a ton of mileage from LnL.
 
I didn't really notice the extra lockout and longer cooldown on health regen changes.

Maybe I should try using/playing vs different teams?
 
I'm CERTAINLY noticing the new lockout as a HP brass user, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing?
 
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For those noticing it, is it punishing in a fair way? Or does it feel too strong? Not strong enough?
 
Spencer said:
For those noticing it, is it punishing in a fair way? Or does it feel too strong? Not strong enough?
Whatever gets armored assists called less frequently and not regenerate health to make up for the fact they leave immediately after they end if they're hit is GOOD for me.
 
alexpi said:
I'm excited to test this stuff vs hardcore keep away Big Cock. Still need to figure out what to do if a Peacock with Fukua HP dart gets rolling though.
I get the feeling I'm somehow responsible for this post.
 
I'm unsure about the lack of regenerating health, I liked the sound of it, but all in all, this feels like a massive nerf to HP knuckle and actually a buff to DP assists. I haven't played enough with the changes, but my first reaction is keep the lockout, remove the incredible amount of time without recovery.
 
Tomo009 said:
I'm unsure about the lack of regenerating health, I liked the sound of it, but all in all, this feels like a massive nerf to HP knuckle and actually a buff to DP assists. I haven't played enough with the changes, but my first reaction is keep the lockout, remove the incredible amount of time without recovery.

Especially with how gigantic and easy to hit Big Band is, the health recovery nerf really hurts his utility as an assist character.
 
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I dont like any of these changes... Revert back to normal and tell people to "gut gud" imho.


I have like no trouble dealing with dp assists at all. I get hit sometimes, thats how it goes. I block them and counter call and punish hard... Thats how it goes. Less assist calls in team games just means more sf4 style footsie games (get the opponent to move towards you so you can poke them during the forward movement) boring and bland, less buttons, less mixups, more turtle and jump away X3.


Just not a style i find fun at all. Feels like a weirdo mechanic like negative penalty ttytt. It isnt so bad with the old lockout, but the new lockout just seems to force more turtling. More damage scaling on assist confirms is the way to go imho. You get everything that you used to get except that now you would really need to reset to make the assist confirm worth it... Doesnt slow the game down and still allows mass buttons while making the comboer work harder for there damage. I dont see how it is bad.
 
POS Industries said:
I get the feeling I'm somehow responsible for this post.

Silent Dolphin too. I figured out a way to get in, but it still sucks dongers to play good peacock with love dart assist.
 
I think having a longer lockout time AND no health recovery the entire time is a bit too rough. Especially for armored assists. Regen is already pretty slow as is. Maybe if assist health recovered faster this would be fine.


And now I have an idea. What if in addition to these changes, assists recover health faster when the point character is in combo state 5? Not as fast as they do during snapback combos, but faster than normal.
 
alexpi said:
Silent Dolphin too. I figured out a way to get in, but it still sucks dongers to play good peacock with love dart assist.
I was wondering when someone else would get around to discovering that.

And by "discovering" I mean me literally telling him that's what I do for his team build spreadsheet on Fukua Day 3. #FirstAndOnlyPOSTech
 
@Dhoppler

I'm nervous about any positive changes to assist health regen.

It directly affects the relative strength of team vs solo play. On a long enough timeline, solo actually has a net disadvantage in team vs solo all due to red health. Your proposed change would accelerate said timeline. Remember, the initial solo advantage of more health/damage is something paid for by the lack of an assist (and all that it brings). I begrudgingly accept that solo isn't the optimal way to play this game, but nerfing an already weaker subset of this game seems... wrong.

I'm no fan of red health for this reason alone, and so I'd selfishly err on the side of pretty much anything that stops it. That said, I'd much rather see a complete revert of everything rather than see a positive change to red health.
 
I guess that would be a problem to for solos.

My line of thought was to further add incentive to reset since assists were taking a big hit. If health regen reverts back to normal, I'd be fine with a longer lockout. Or I'd be happy with the current retail lockout if we decide to go with regen lockout instead. But not both.

Before, I've barely ever noticed the assist lockout. But I use H Brass knuckles regularly so I notice Big Band taking damage, especially when people counter pick with another Brass Knuckle or use lock n load. With a longer lockout time, my Peacock would be reasonably high and dry. With regen lockout and current retail assist lockout, I'd be further incentivized to take care of BB or to call him less often in fear of him taking big damage from other big hit attacks. With both, Peacock fights alone for longer, and I have to worry about my assists dying before they've been of much use to me.

Rush down is already pretty strong and zoning is only really effective with help from assists so this current build of the beta puts Peacock and Fukua at a disadvantage and further diminishes Parasoul's and Double's alternative game plans.
 
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I'm totally fine with the health regen freeze but that extra second feels like an eternity, especially with brass where it takes BB long enough to move his fat ass off screen even when he DOESN'T get hit.
 
It looks like the lockout time was removed in beta (though the red health lock out is still in).

Does this include snap out for 5 seconds?
 
alexpi said:
Silent Dolphin too. I figured out a way to get in, but it still sucks dongers to play good peacock with love dart assist.
Pushblock then jump. After pushblock animation is over you're in neutral. The key is to get closer than full screen where the combination is best.

Well, that and finding when to pushblock.
 
Parasoul's Egret Charge only cancels the grab if she is hit during the first 22f of the summon anim. (Slightly less than half of it.)
pleeeeaaasssssee keep
 
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