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Street Fighter V

Cynical said:
Without the threat of a chip kill, the person trying to get in can be a lot more conservative in their attempts to get in when they're at low life, and give the zoner very few options for punishing those attempts.

"Trying to make comebacks" isn't a real argument, since if you're knocked down against a fireball character and your life is within chip-out range, the match is already over. It's like saying "you shouldn't be able to kill a character with a combo, because it makes it harder to do comebacks".


This is exactly the conclusion I came to awhile ago as well. If no chip makes it in and even through all its detriments it is kept in, I FULLY expect some game in the future to embrace a "combo can't kill, one more chance" mechanic. It's where the logic points.

It doesn't take a huge jump to go from blockstring or knockdown setup into chip can't kill, to last combo can't kill.

So far I haven't seen any arguments for the mechanic besides "why should I die to a guaranteed chip setup situation when I put myself there in the first place" and "it's hype for people watching and playing (not for me!) and "the other player should have to prove their offense and get a REAL opening" (as if reducing their opponents hp to zero required no skill and they lost all their hp via random bs)


It would be mindboggling if this happened 10 years ago, but seeing as to how people think in this new millennium, it's barely surprising.
 
yo~ if you want a reason for chip not to kill in this game, here's one:
Everything does chip. If chip kills you could knockdown into meaty anything and they would just eat fist.
On a personal note, I don't think chip should kill unless meter is expended simply because that's not fair mechanics wise. To block is to guard an attack. To defend. It is there to minimize or eliminate the damage a player would take from an attack, so to have situations where a player is guarding against their opponents offense perfectly still dies because this one was a "special" move(which is still free for the person using it.) is not okay to me. At least not in certain games.

Also, zoning is not keepaway. If you look at any good Guile or Deejay or whoever, the don't sit fullscreen and fling sonic booms at you all match. They are at a specific range, and keep you at that range, that zone. If you have someone like Guile putting on pressure, all of his normals doing chip, and then he just whips a fireball at you you're dead now. From what I'm hearing and seeing, they're focusing on zoning, and not keepaway. If I'm playing Guy and you're playing Sim or whoever, I shouldn't be able to chip you out with blockstring into hozanto, nor should you be able to chip me out with "yoga fire, yoga fire, yoga fire" Especially not when you have the same potential for mixups as me. No death on chip shouldn't exclude fireballs, or anything else that wouldn't cost the user anything. It would put the non-zoners at an extreme disadvantage.
 
I remember reading an article that interviewed they guy who has the rights to Karin and he was like I didn't even know I had that and I have no problem letting Capcom user her in one of their games. Either way Capcom can do it if they really want to. They got mvc3 made when people were saying it couldn't be done. They brought Tatsunoko vs Capcom to US when every one said that it would be a legal nightmare and not even worth it since it was on the wii. They got gears of war in Lost Planet.

If that leaked list is the final thing I'd be ok with it. I'm more interested in who their new character will be for 5 and if any more characters will be in the beta. Beta comes out in july... I guess not.
 
I'm expecting Oro to be announced after watching that Statue Collector's breakdown as to why, it made a lot of sense and follows suit historically

edit: suit not suite dumb dumb
 
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dMags said:
I'm expecting Oro to be announced after watching that Statue Collector's breakdown as to why, it made a lot of sense and follows suite historically
Yeah, me too
 
CapnWTF said:
yo~ if you want a reason for chip not to kill in this game, here's one:
Everything does chip. If chip kills you could knockdown into meaty anything and they would just eat fist.
Uh, every character in the game has special moves, so it's not like normal chip is giving characters chip damage that didn't have it before. Oh, and if someone is trying to chip you out with a normal, maybe you should reversal?
 
CapnWTF said:
yo~ if you want a reason for chip not to kill in this game, here's one:
Everything does chip. If chip kills you could knockdown into meaty anything and they would just eat fist.

Its not like they couldn't just say "no chip kills with normal moves, only specials".
 
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^^^ it's like we are living amongst rocket scientists or something... Jeez.

(That isn't a dig against you, Jason)

Just kind of like a holy shit why does this even need to be stated. Chip from normals has never killed. I don't see why it would need to kill in sf5. Specials and ex specials and supers chip for death and not normals, like it's always been.

Sorry but I've just heard this "no chip kill because normals do chip" argument more times than one would think intelligent people would come up with that kind of argument.
 
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Anyway my opinion on the matter is that, yes, reduced chip death makes zoning characters worse... but it doesn't look like SF5 is going to be friendly to zoning characters anyway, even without the chip-death issue. Everybody's V-Skill is an anti-fireball tool (Birdie's doesn't look like it at first glance but he can put out a Can to trade with a fireball and then immediately get in on you off the knockdown.)

It seems like they've made a conscious design decision that zoning is going to be bad in SF5 and people are just going to have to accept that if they want to play the game.
 
I feel like the rest of my post was ignored. fair enough on reversals and no normal chip kills...that was a little rough though dime.
But just because an argument has been made a lot doesn't make it valid. Normals do chip, making special moves chip kill for free I feel will put too much power into special moves, and by extension, projectiles. I feel like the player shouldn't be punished that much for defending properly (and to be honest I don't know what the big huff about high low projectiles is...unless it's sagat) and trying to find an opening. Things like footsies and frametraps WILL be in the game, so if you have a player getting whittled away by sakura shunpukyaku loop levels of pressure they'll more than likely have no real opportunities to fight back in a lot of situations.

I main Guy currently and if his normals did chip it would be really damn hard for people to be near me at all. Putting someone in blockstun for a while isn't a big deal, because there's always "holes" where I can be punished, but if my normals do chip, I no longer need to even try to open them up. I can just keep up the pressure until they either do something and get stuffed, or don't have much health left, then I can just throw out safe special moves and kill them.

And you can say "But V-Reversals", but that's not the end of it. That guarantees nothing. Even if you were to reset the situation you have to eat damage to get that V-meter anyway if I'm all on you like white on rice. I'm not going to let you use your V-Special, and most of them aren't safe anyway so you may end up in a worse situation. Now if you have a zoning character doing this it would be just as bad, because there isn't a single zoning character in SfIV or III for that matter who can't put up some kind of fight without their projectiles. Look at Guile, at Deejay, at Sim, at seth to an extent, they can all be up close if they need to, and all (excluding Sim I guess) have really fast, safe projectiles that are hard to react to. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? Defensive players would just get blown the fuck up by that.

TL;DR Making special chip kill in conjunction with normals doing chip makes pressure and special moves WAY to strong, you wouldn't even have to land a clean hit on your opponent, you could just keep whittling their health down while they're defending and then pop a special move at them and they're done.
Either way I feel like with the way the game is currently balanced, no chip kills is a smart decision. If a character is revealed that can't function without chip kills then I could see that change being necessary. But so far everything is working out well.
and god damn if this isn't a wall.
 
EA575 said:
If Mika does come back, I'm expecting a redesign for her like with Birdie and Nash. I don't know if her current design will fly with today's society, with her tits and ass just out there.
Cammy.

That said, I personally like R.Mika as a character but felt part of her costume was a bit much....it was the heart nipples. It just looked off. I like everything else though.
 
CapnWTF said:
TL;DR Making special chip kill in conjunction with normals doing chip makes pressure and special moves WAY to strong, you wouldn't even have to land a clean hit on your opponent, you could just keep whittling their health down while they're defending and then pop a special move at them and they're done.


But normal attacks don't do "Real" chip damage anyway. They cause white recoverable life, so you still have to open somebody up to kill them.

And if somebody manages to make me block for so long that I get chipped to death from special moves from 100% health well fuck I probably got bodied and don't deserve to win anyway (or the game is a broken mess with blockstun infinites).

Also chip and white-health damage build your V-Bar so you can still V-Reversal out of pressure even if you're not taking any non-chip damage.
 
Covenant said:
Cammy.
I thought about Cammy, but then again, that's one character out of the whole female cast that has her butt exposed (besides, Mika of course). And there's always that flying butt attack.
Plus there's the boob window(?) and heart nipples in front as you mentioned. The costume didn't really bother me that much before, but bringing it back today could make things uncomfortable for spectators. Capcom has had enough problems with the Chun-Li jiggle bug.
 
Covenant said:
Cammy.

That said, I personally like R.Mika as a character but felt part of her costume was a bit much....it was the heart nipples. It just looked off. I like everything else though.
Bring back wonder cheeks.

But anyways if they were going to announce a new character or two and if it's disappointing (which it probably will be) I want to be hilarious in that ono hypes it up for two weeks and at the end of the two weeks he announces it's just Yun and Yang AGAIN!

Seriously though I want a R.Mika redesign but not because of boobs or ass popping out but because her original outfit was...kinda stupid. Reminded me more of a clown than a wrestler.
 
majorgalaxy said:
Reminded me more of a clown than a wrestler.
It's the mask, isn't it? :P
 
I just realized R. Mika's voice actress plays Naruto.
Believe it. :PUN:
 
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Honestly, Mika's costume isn't particularly out of place for her profession as a Japanese Women's Pro Wrestler
I'd remove the ruffles though
they're pretty silly
 
Now i just want to see R. Mika the way she is back just so people will complain and make a mess.

Just kidding, but i think her costume is the amount of fan service that street fighter naturally have, but a redesign might be cool.

We know by looking at cammy, and chun, that she will be more muscular in general, if she is in the game.
 
Jason said:
But normal attacks don't do "Real" chip damage anyway. They cause white recoverable life, so you still have to open somebody up to kill them.

And if somebody manages to make me block for so long that I get chipped to death from special moves from 100% health well fuck I probably got bodied and don't deserve to win anyway (or the game is a broken mess with blockstun infinites).

Also chip and white-health damage build your V-Bar so you can still V-Reversal out of pressure even if you're not taking any non-chip damage.
well, shit I didn't necessarily mean from 100% health but yeah if that happens you didn't have much chance anyway.
And I didn't take into account the recoverable life, but it's not like that'll stop you from dying at low health. At above 30% HP then yeah you've got chances, but past that point you're still in danger no matter how good your defense is.
I'm serious though, do you guys understand what I'm saying? I get what you guys mean but I don't know if I'm getting across too well, writing was never something I was good at.
 
Dolfinh said:
Going to assume it's Waifu factor.
it's pretty much waifu factor. In honest opinion I feel Capcom should try their hands on making more original characters SF4 had some okay ones. and like one good one.
 
yeah everyone besides El Fuerte and Hakan were pretty mediocre
honestly, they should just pool all the wrestling characters together and make a new Slam Masters game
 
Dime_x said:
This is exactly the conclusion I came to awhile ago as well. If no chip makes it in and even through all its detriments it is kept in, I FULLY expect some game in the future to embrace a "combo can't kill, one more chance" mechanic. It's where the logic points.

It doesn't take a huge jump to go from blockstring or knockdown setup into chip can't kill, to last combo can't kill.

And then there'd be nuclear war right? To clarify, you are simply making a slippery slope argument. At the very, very least you'd have to provide some justification for it because I'm just hearing more fearmongering. And I really don't think one leads into the other. Even if it does, that doesn't mean both are good, bad, or neutral.

Dime_x said:
So far I haven't seen any arguments for the mechanic besides "why should I die to a guaranteed chip setup situation when I put myself there in the first place"

I mentioned it before, but how is this justification any different than for an unblockable which are generally defended by saying "if you put yourself there, you deserve the unblockable".

Dime_x said:
It would be mindboggling if this happened 10 years ago, but seeing as to how people think in this new millennium, it's barely surprising.

Finally, while I am in some part sympathetic to the direction games have gone, as I too am an old school gamer (no shit, I used to play games on a Commodore 64 and the fucking Atari... though it was a hand me down). I don't really love the open world, choose-your-own-adventure style of games (Skyrim etc.) that are all the rave. I like hearing good stories instead of making choices. I like my platformers brutal, and my puzzles impossible. I prefer random encounters, and I like my RPG to be JRPGs. Despite this, taking queues from video games from 10 years ago is not always a good thing.

I watched the freak out happen when WC3 made unit control easier (from SC). I watched the nerd rage when SC2 improved on that. I saw DotA players angry for the same reason when LoL was launched and when DotA2 came out. Not all advances in user friendliness are bad things. They allow new players into the game. They can help to remove some of the unnecessary busy work that was there simply due to technological limitations, artificial barriers, or bugs... things we might look back on fondly, but really they sometimes are just fucking annoying (currently realized this when I started up Phantasy Star II after almost 2 decades and realized just how much grinding I have to do). Anyway, my point is that the "newer generation" elitism isn't usually a good thing, and it is no way to make games (and it happens with every generation... heard someone talking shit about how newer generations haven't even played Fallout 3... and I'm like "bitch, did you even play Fallout 1?").

That's not to say that the no chip death thing falls into this category, but it might. It has worked for other games (despite Cynical's objection that it hasn't), and if it goes in or doesn't... 99% of the game is going to be fine.

Anyway, wall o' text, and I'm back in despite saying I'm getting out... but whatever.
 
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CapnWTF said:
well, shit I didn't necessarily mean from 100% health but yeah if that happens you didn't have much chance anyway.
And I didn't take into account the recoverable life, but it's not like that'll stop you from dying at low health. At above 30% HP then yeah you've got chances, but past that point you're still in danger no matter how good your defense is.
I'm serious though, do you guys understand what I'm saying? I get what you guys mean but I don't know if I'm getting across too well, writing was never something I was good at.

I think you're seriously over-stating the impact that chip damage normals will have on the game beyond giving you an extra 2-3% damage on you next mixup.

Even Bison, who is probably the best equipped of the current cast to take advantage of chip normals doesn't get much better than that. Plus chip damage eats your white-life first so if Bison does something like s.HP > Scissors he doesn't even get any additional "chip" damage from the s.HP at all because the Scissors chip off the white life first.

Also the whole comment about Guy is kind of irrelevant since he's not in SF5 and there aren't any command-run characters in the game at all so far.

Edit - Wait nevermind, chip doesn't take your white life first like it does in SF4.
 
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Dolfinh said:
Waifu factor.

Implying it's not because she has the best super ever.

latest
 
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Speaking of Guy, by appearing in the London stage poster, perhaps he won't be on SFV's roster. Like
x1EOrMg.jpg

Maki, Cody, Haggar, and Guy poster
If Rainbow Mika does return, she'll get a big redesign like the others. Bison got old. Birdie got fat. Ryu got swole. If R. Mika returns, I expect her to have a sturdier body type, like the Amazon in Dragon's Crown.
Humdinger said:
leak mebe?
-Ryu *
-Chun-Li *
-M. Bison *
-Nash *
-Birdie *
-Cammy *
-R. Mika
-Zangief
-Dhalsim
-Juri
-Karin
-Ken
-Urien
-Alex
-Laura
-Rashid
-Zen
-New Boss "
It is a nice wish list, but I can't see a game with Yoshinori Ono as Executive Producer not including Blanka. I don't mind her, but I don't want R. Mika. Juri returning is a plus. I'll keep the names Laura, Rashid, and Zen in mind for future reveals to see if this leak pans out.

EVO is like three weeks away. What are the odds of a new character reveal there?
 
Spencer said:
I mentioned it before, but how is this justification any different than for an unblockable which are generally defended by saying "if you put yourself there, you deserve the unblockable".
I can't speak for DimeX, but I personally have nothing against unblockable setups. I don't see them as being any different from combos, where if you get hit the first time, you can't do anything about the rest of the damage.

I watched the freak out happen when WC3 made unit control easier (from SC). I watched the nerd rage when SC2 improved on that.
The cascade of design decisions that happened because of infinitely large control groups, improved unit pathing, and MBS went a very long way towards ruining SC2. They weren't the only reason that game was disappointing and hugely inferior to BW (too high of unit movement speed and overly-linear single-base income curves with a very high maximum worker saturation point also contributed), but they sure as hell gave the game a much worse starting point.
99% of the game is going to be fine.
I doubt this very strongly. Walk speeds are still garbage, crouch tech OS is still in but just harder to do (exactly like MikeZ predicted it would be), there are still universal fireball negation tools (notice how everyone's V-Skill is basically a way of saying "yeah, your fireballs suck now"), successful throws are minus frames according to what I've read on SRK (LOL), jump arcs are still weird, the game stil has that awful "floaty flip-out" on anti-air hits, Ryu's SRK has been made garbage to compensate for him having a parry (so the basic Shoryu gameplan is right out), Dictator is based on the Alpha version that no one actually liked... SFV is shaping up to be a complete trainwreck.
 
BallotBoxer said:
I'll keep the names Laura, Rashid, and Zen in mind for future reveals to see if this leak pans out.
fwiw those names were included in an earlier 'leak', so it's possible that if this leak is fake they just copied those. On the other hand, Capcom had all of the 3 new mechanics in Ultra leaked before release so anything is possible. A character release at EVO would be nice, but might be a little too soon after the Cammy/Birdie reveal unless they really are going for a slightly larger cast.

Also, is nobody else sad that if the leak is true, that there's no Makoto?
 
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Vadsamoht said:
fwiw those names were included in an earlier 'leak', so it's possible that if this leak is fake they just copied those. On the other hand, Capcom had all of the 3 new mechanics in Ultra leaked before release so anything is possible. A character release at EVO would be nice, but might be a little too soon after the Cammy/Birdie reveal unless they really are going for a slightly larger cast.

Also, is nobody else sad that if the leak is true, that there's no Makoto?

Dude, makoto is my main both in 3s and USF4 (and i suck at sf), i would love to see her in sf5, but i think she is not going to make it, i mean, cammy already have her super 2/ultra2, and the trope of slow walk speed and fast dash is in bison now.
 
Sotherius said:
Dude, makoto is my main both in 3s and USF4 (and i suck at sf), i would love to see her in sf5, but i think she is not going to make it, i mean, cammy already have her super 2/ultra2, and the trope of slow walk speed and fast dash is in bison now.

I'm rooting for Rose <3
 
All the revealed characters right now, have connections between themselves.

Bison, being the leader of shadaloo, and main villain of the series, Ryu being the guy that kicks shadaloo in the nuts from time to time and is the main character of the series. Chun Li, works in the police and lives to catch bison. Cammy, is a ex-doll, so she is against bison naturally, and if we go for decapre's ending in sf4, we can believe that cammy is fighting to save decapre (and probably the other dolls too), Birdie, i don't know about him, but in his character screen is said that he is a former shadaloo member, Nash, well, i don't know about him too (i don't know anything abou sf Alpha), but i know that he kinda destroyed bison's plans in Alpha 3, and he is back from the dead looking for revenge on Bison.

Now, considering that the leak is false, if would do a prediction, is that this iteration of street fighter, will have a lot less "filler" characters, like Dudley (looking for flowers/his dad's car), Makoto (trying to rebuild her family dojo), and will have more main story centred characters, like Rose (Bison's counterpart, the good part of his soul or whatever she is), Guile (trying to take shadaloo, and maybe trying to find and "save" Nash), and of course, Urien and Gill are bets because Nash have the iluminati thing on his forehead, implying that he was saved by the illuminati.
 
I think just Urien would make it. With the exception of Bison, and I guess Akuma, SF boss characters don't appear in the other titles.
 
EA575 said:
I think just Urien would make it. With the exception of Bison, and I guess Akuma, SF boss characters don't appear in the other titles.

And Vega and Balrog...

In fact the only boss character to ever not re-appear in future games is just Gil (Seth hasn't had a sequel to appear in yet so he doesn't count until he's officially off the SF5 roster).
 
no matter what happens I don't want seth to come back.
Never before have I seen such a weak character design. This is coming from a Q main.
 
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Jason said:
And Vega and Balrog...

In fact the only boss character to ever not re-appear in future games is just Gil (Seth hasn't had a sequel to appear in yet so he doesn't count until he's officially off the SF5 roster).
I totally forgot about those two lol
Now that I think about it, you're right. Can't really count EX characters for obvious reasons.
 
Gill could be dead(for good), and Urien assuming his place as leader of the Illuminati.

But it would be cool to see a balanced version of Gill in a street fighter game.

Also, i am thinking here, in the character leak, how they would work with the SFV mechanics, if the leak is true.

For instance, what would be Urin V-skill, and v-trigger? And how they would incorporate his style of gameplay (and the aegis reflector).
 
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