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The Power of One.

Should solo characters have a function that teams don't?

  • Yes

    Votes: 34 49.3%

  • No

    Votes: 35 50.7%
  • Total voters
    69
What is this invulnerable assist nerf that some have been talking about?
 
Dime_x said:
What is this invulnerable assist nerf that some have been talking about?

lockout will be applied to any assist with invincibility during attack frames, even if the assist is not hit
 
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GirlyStyle said:
lockout will be applied to any assist with invincibility during attack frames, even if the assist is not hit
Apparently it doesn't matter whether the invuln is during the active frames, as M.Butt is also affected by the lockout. Iunno.
 
GirlyStyle said:
interested in what @KhaosMuffins thinks of this since he was the highest placing solo at evo (despite him and his time machine saying he would play teams now)
Oh uh.... If it helps to explain, my entire gameplan during EVO was "bait the assist call and go in" and that's what got me wins (and this was before assist lockout was even a thing). Yeah, it's a bit passive, but it's all a part of knowing how to play the neutral game.
 
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Oh... Well that sounds.... Hmmm..

I wonder how that applies to trio... Ie if i call my bomber assist and it gets locked out... Can i then call my non locked out assist? Or do i have both my assists locked out even if one isnt invulnerable.


In before hk hairball and armored assists in general take over the world. Lol, bad try in my mind unless its tweaked... But hey, i could be wrong.
 
Spencer said:
I think the problem with being forced into passive play is it mitigates the solo advantage (as I've mentioned in other threads, every second of ticking red life is a second our only real advantage is diminished).

I think that's a good point, but part of that fight is properly baiting/punishing assist calls by maintaining the proper positioning to do so. Remember that as a solo, you aren't just supposed to be pressuring the character on point, but pressuring your opponent into making their assist a bit of a liability. Condition them not to call it. If they end up not calling out their assist to try and regain red health on the assist you've been bopping, that sounds like the perfect opportunity to focus on the point character more aggressively.

EDIT: just got ninja'd with this:

KhaosMuffins said:
Oh uh.... If it helps to explain, my entire gameplan during EVO was "bait the assist call and go in" and that's what got me wins (and this was before assist lockout was even a thing). Yeah, it's a bit passive, but it's all a part of knowing how to play the neutral game.


which pretty much suggests what i am saying.

Spencer said:
It also isn't that they can't be hit, but that the window to do so is tiny, especially when being pressured.

This can be pretty rough, I imagine. However you gotta remember the window is constant and that its totally possible to practice setups where you bait an offensive/defensive assist call and know the punish. I saw ShinAtProof mention how he does this kind of baiting on the defensive via PBGC -> scalpels when the opponent is trying to open him up with assist plus some kind of block string.

On the offensive, you gotta learn constant frametrap setups. The really good thing about these setups is every assist has the same startup of 2 vulnerable frames, so setups are pretty universal and all that you need is the read on your opponent. I think this kind of thing is essential for ANY player, despite team ratio, due to SG players happy buttons.

In summary, I think there's a few more things you can be doing on both offense and defense that can help you out with these matchups. Its still a bad matchup, but there is tech to help punish the bad habits of most team players. Make their strengths liabilities
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Oh uh.... If it helps to explain, my entire gameplan during EVO was "bait the assist call and go in" and that's what got me wins (and this was before assist lockout was even a thing). Yeah, it's a bit passive, but it's all a part of knowing how to play the neutral game.

But that was for a character with an incredibly nice arc trajectory to perfectly go over teh assist. What about characters like PW who drop down when they attack (PWs upward options are super limited) and other less mobile champs. Not to mention MF has a lightning jab that allows her to catch an assist on incoming a tad easier than others. And you effectively lost your first match vs Chilldog to updo despite playing pretty fucking solidly. I imagine it would have been worse had he not DHC'd Filia (losing his invuln assist in doing so). Rewatching the EVO vidos and imagining those updos getting locked out is pretty interesting actually.

More often than not by the time you get to a more defensive player after their first assist call, it is ready again.
 
Spencer said:
But that was for a character with an incredibly nice arc trajectory to perfectly go over teh assist. What about characters like PW who drop down when they attack (PWs upward options are super limited) and other less mobile champs. Not to mention MF has a lightning jab that allows her to catch an assist on incoming a tad easier than others. And you effectively lost your first match vs Chilldog to updo despite playing pretty fucking solidly. I imagine it would have been worse had he not DHC'd Filia (losing his invuln assist in doing so). Rewatching the EVO vidos and imagining those updos getting locked out is pretty interesting actually.

More often than not by the time you get to a more defensive player after their first assist call, it is ready again.

You put it too black and white and really not giving the players their due credit :P he didn't lose to updo, he lost to chilldog using updo really well as opposed to however many other filia's he fought to get into top8.


have you seen SkyKing play? He's a sick Solo PW that bodies tons of people, despite what team they use.
 
Spencer said:
But that was for a character with an incredibly nice arc trajectory to perfectly go over teh assist. What about characters like PW who drop down when they attack (PWs upward options are super limited) and other less mobile champs. Not to mention MF has a lightning jab that allows her to catch an assist on incoming a tad easier than others. And you effectively lost your first match vs Chilldog to updo despite playing pretty fucking solidly. I imagine it would have been worse had he not DHC'd Filia (losing his invuln assist in doing so). Rewatching the EVO vidos and imagining those updos getting locked out is pretty interesting actually.

More often than not by the time you get to a more defensive player after their first assist call, it is ready again.
I baited assists by moving constantly moving in and out of range, not by trying to jump over the updo that ends up catching me 9 times out of 10. Fortune actually has a harder time than most characters catching assists on incoming since she has so few multihit moves and lacks moves with a lot of active frames.

The first match vs Chilldog I lost because I didn't respect Updo enough/didn't mix him up well enough. The result would've been the same whether or not I was a solo character or had a team. Also, you should've seen the matches I played vs Chilldog (and everyone I played casuals with + my tournament matches vs TJGamer and Winnie) that weren't on stream. :P
 
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I have that match against tj gamer... Never noticed the assist baiting per se though... Will rewatch.
 
I don't even remember if I did the same thing vs TJ. There was a lot of panic and worry and zoom > nom in that set.

I still have no clue how I won.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Solo Bella is scary until you play the matchup (she hurts but still needs 2 good hits to kill like every other solo).
Actually, one good hit is a dead character. It can be done almost everywhere on the screen against v3, in more specific but still easy places against v2, and with a HCH it's as easy as the v3 TOD. Two mediocre hits is a dead character as bella.
 
Zidiane said:
Actually, one good hit is a dead character. It can be done almost everywhere on the screen against v3, in more specific but still easy places against v2, and with a HCH it's as easy as the v3 TOD. Two mediocre hits is a dead character as bella.

i think he was more referring to the neutral, where offline the matchup is super manageable and easy to control with the proper team
 
GirlyStyle said:
i think he was more referring to the neutral, where offline the matchup is super manageable and easy to control with the proper team
Oh, did I misread? It also kinda looks like he could be saying she takes to hits to bring down. Hmm.
 
to add to the whole vampire snap thing, and to address girlys observation that it could just be the dominant tactic while playing a solo as to why you wouldnt just snap all the time.

what if after the snap, rather than just immediately giving a chunk of life back to you, it starts healing your health back slowly, up to a maximum value (lets say 1500 points as an example) over the course of the next lets say 5 seconds (again just placeholder), until either the max life is gained OR you take a hit from the opp. almost like the way it works in sf4 with regaining life after a focus.

this way it will at least force people to think about IF they will snap at all. if you are really desperate for the extra life would you risk trying an incoming mixup knowing that the opp could likely mash super or whatever an then you lose out on life gain, would you back off an rely on having a better neutral in order to not take the hit until your life is back, knowing that now is the time to push the offensivesince the opp is now assistless?

it adds a bit more to think about rather than just snapping everytime which i like.
 
GirlyStyle said:
have you seen SkyKing play? He's a sick Solo PW that bodies tons of people, despite what team they use.
Skyking seems like the worst suggestion when talking about baiting Updo as iirc he flies into it every time - he just wins anyways because.. magic. I guess he's the king of the sky for a reason.
 
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I think solo players just need to accept that they're playing a sub-optimal team. You're not going to have more than a few solo characters being effective alone and if you're unwilling to go duo, then that's really your choice. I mean, the simple answer to a solo who is really bad is to grab an assist. Anything after than is player choice (also, solos already have some advantages over teams).

Basically, they do not need a buff.
 
Zidiane said:
Oh, did I misread? It also kinda looks like he could be saying she takes to hits to bring down. Hmm.
I meant, 2 combos starting with a reasonable starter with a reasonable amount of meter in a reasonable situation. If Bella can easily ToD as a solo then I stand corrected.
 
If they could do MDE (maybe even SDE) combos I'd totally play solo.
 
Actually, solos having a little more undizzy to work with seems like an interesting thing to ponder.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
I meant, 2 combos starting with a reasonable starter with a reasonable amount of meter in a reasonable situation. If Bella can easily ToD as a solo then I stand corrected.
The v3 TOD I have just barely doesn't TOD with only one bar (though I could maybe optimize it somehow and make it kill for one bar) off of a c.lk, the more spacing sensitive v2 TOD is off of c.lk and for two meters, and the HCH is as easy as the v3 and for two bars. The only thing is they don't kill v2 Double or Big Band (maybe Parasoul and Cerebella too? I can't remember), so I should probably see if there isn't an alternative for them at some point.
 
@View619

I'm curious about your line of thinking. It is essentially summed up as "solo sucks... deal with it". I wonder if you'd be saying the same thing if say Bella was a suboptimal character relative to all of them. If it is possible to bring solos more in line with teams, why wouldn't you want to? Unless you don't think solo can be made better without being made OP (which isn't what you seem to be saying at all).

@GirlyStyle

Yeah, I watched Skyking religiously (there's sadly not enough of him online). He's probably what got me my largest start as solo PW. That said, he definitely eats Updo on occasion. He does fairly well of course... but it is fucking Skyking.
 
GirlyStyle said:
i think vampire snapbacks is awesome, and great for balance, but here's a question for y'all from an ignorant man:

if you have a meter, and a super won't kill, why wouldn't you snap, and does the idea of a predominant tactic bother anyone?

EDIT: playing devil's advocate here more then anything

Generally, I don't think I like the idea just because it removes the stud points for playing solo. When you pick a solo, you're basically saying "I'm sacrificing regeneration, assists, and DHCs because when I catch you, I'm gonna fuck you."

Specifically, I think it might be messed up for a few characters that can do relatively unique things in solo play. Vampiring health negates at least some of the penalty damage Head-Off Fortune takes through her head, if not a lot since i think it takes 50% damage anyways. Vampiring health negates a lot of the penalty damage solo Painwheel will soak with armor as well, which turns her into this life-swing tiger's blood necromancer warlock thing and fuck that.

TL;DR: Don't buff Zidiane, he's already high as a kite on his own manliness.
 
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Broseidon Rex said:
New favorite phrase

I was a gladiator affliction lock in BC and WotLK, I know some charlie sheen shit when I see it.
 
Spencer said:
@View619

I'm curious about your line of thinking. It is essentially summed up as "solo sucks... deal with it". I wonder if you'd be saying the same thing if say Bella was a suboptimal character relative to all of them. If it is possible to bring solos more in line with teams, why wouldn't you want to? Unless you don't think solo can be made better without being made OP (which isn't what you seem to be saying at all).

@GirlyStyle

Yeah, I watched Skyking religiously (there's sadly not enough of him online). He's probably what got me my largest start as solo PW. That said, he definitely eats Updo on occasion. He does fairly well of course... but it is fucking Skyking.

I honestly don't think viable solos need anything. Sure, you play solo PW but you pretty much have to accept the weaknesses if you refuse to pick up an assist. It's not like you don't have a choice, you just decide that you're going to stick with it. That's cool, but you have to take the good with the bad.

Solos don't suck btw, you just have to be able to take full advantage of the game mechanics at your disposal. You already have enough life and do enough damage to turn things around in one reversal/hit, so it's not like you're just a single character with no benefits. I don't really care about Bella btw (I don't even think she's good solo), I mean in general.
 
Dagwood said:
hell no. solos are soo annoying and random as it is already.

Lol, that is the most whiny thing I've ever heard. Teams have way more potential to be annoying, they can do everything solos can and can assist spam. They can be even more random since they have assists to work with as well.

View619 said:
I honestly don't think viable solos need anything. Sure, you play solo PW but you pretty much have to accept the weaknesses if you refuse to pick up an assist. It's not like you don't have a choice, you just decide that you're going to stick with it. That's cool, but you have to take the good with the bad.

What you are in essence saying though, is that you have to deal with it if you refuse to pick up a teammate. You state that solos are suboptimal yet they don't need a buff. The bad definitely outweighs the good, even with the best solo characters. What is wrong with discussing Solo changes, particularly if it is brought up by MikeZ (the vampire snapback)?
 
blufang said:
Lol, what kind of argument is that? Teams have way more potential to be annoying, they can do everything solos can and can assist spam. They can be even more random since they have assists to work with as well.



What you are in essence saying though, is that you have to deal with it if you refuse to pick up a teammate. You state that solos are suboptimal yet they don't need a buff. The bad definitely outweighs the good, even with the best solo characters. What is wrong with discussing Solo changes, particularly if it is brought up by MikeZ (the vampire snapback)?

So, pick up an assist? This is a team game, why would you expect solo characters to be equal to teams when they don't even have access to the full set of mechanics? No, they don't need a buff because team building is a thing in SG. If you don't want to take part in that fine, but understand what you're missing out on and don't cry foul because your single character team isn't as strong as duos/trios.
 
does this invincible assists have a longer cooldown help at all?
 
I'm not expecting them to be equal. Also I play Squigly and Big Band, I'll add Eliza when she arrives. Trio is what I've always wanted to play, never had intention of playing solo. However I like the playing field to be as even as possible weather I am looking down from on top of a mountain or sinking at the bottom of a ditch. This game allows solo, duo, or trio...so I see no harm in discussing ways to make them closer in strength. What is wrong with the vampire snapback idea? Teams will still be way better, it would probably be easy to implement, and would be thoroughly tested in beta before it ever got to the actual game.
 
View619 said:
Solos don't suck btw

View619 said:
why would you expect solo characters to be equal to teams

Solo's don't suck... they just aren't as good as teams?

And you can keep saying that "this is a team game", but it isn't fully. It is a game which claims that you can play a team of 1, 2, or even 3.

You seem to not want to buff solos on principle simply because I choose to play the game differently than you.
 
I feel solos are fine the way they are, they don't need any additional mechanics. Just knowing that a solo can nearly down a team character can be intimidating enough for teams to play as cautiously as a solos against a wall of assists.
 
Edited to remove snark:

Teams don't generally play any more defensive vs a solo. In my experience, it is quite the contrary. Solo is forced to respect the assist and has to generally bait it out before being able to play aggressively.
 
When I play against Savarin I respect the hell out of his options because I know that if I go for a reset and get hit by even one reversal then I'm most likely losing a character. Other solo players aren't as good at the game (and hey, the better players tend to play teams), so there isn't that much reason to respect the majority of them ever, to be perfectly honest.
 
Last edited:
Small things like a good pbgc is all you need to tell teams that your not taking their crap. Nothing ruins a team more than seeing a bad assist call result in a happy birthday. As solo, you've got damage and life advantage. If your opponent doesn't understand that, make them.
 
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Spencer said:
Solo's don't suck... they just aren't as good as teams?

And you can keep saying that "this is a team game", but it isn't fully. It is a game which claims that you can play a team of 1, 2, or even 3.

You seem to not want to buff solos on principle simply because I choose to play the game differently than you.


Red Savarin said:
I feel solos are fine the way they are, they don't need any additional mechanics. Just knowing that a solo can nearly down a team character can be intimidating enough for teams to play as cautiously as a solos against a wall of assists.

KhaosMuffins said:
When I play against Savarin I respect the hell out of his options because I know that if I go for a reset and get hit by even one reversal then I'm most likely losing a character. Other solo players aren't as good at the game (and hey, the better players tend to play teams), so there isn't that much reason to respect the majority of them ever, to be perfectly honest.

When the solo players asking for buffs can use all the options available to them effectively (pbgc, absolute guard, etc) and play viable solo options (complaining about Solo PW and Peacock for example doesn't really make sense), then maybe we can re-visit this. But when the good solo players (i.e. Red Savarin, Khaos, etc) are saying solos are fine and give valid reasons (the same reasons I have), why would I listen to the weak players?

In any fighting game, I can choose to play the low tier option. But that doesn't mean I'm going to ask for xyz to be adjusted every other week, I'm going to make full use of the option's strengths and learn how to play around the weaknesses. Either that or I choose another option (or play something else). If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to tell you.
 
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The problem for me is not that they're bad, I find playing solo boring. It's much more fun to play around with assist combos, mix ups, alpha counters, etc. Simply having two or more different characters in the same game makes it a lot more fun.

If solos had unique mechanics that really set them apart from teams it would really appeal to me a lot more than just damage and health.
 
No offense to good solos, but they play the one solo who is widely considered the most effective solo in part because she has a built in assist.

Not to mention you beg the question. Solos can be effective if you play effective solos... well no shit. Everything is effective if you only pick effective things. That you even say this admits to some deficiency in solo play which is precisely what we are discussing. Your argument reminds me of "all animals are created equal, but some animals are created more equally than others."

Like I said before, you seem intent on not bringing up the viability of solos simply on principle while holding this double speak that solos are fine, and solos are necessarily worse than teams.

Excuse any typos, I'm on a phone.
 
Being a good or bad player doesn't mean you would produce satisfactory results regarding game balance by default. All it means is that you happen to be good/bad at playing with x, y, or z character/mechanic, but know next to nothing on balancing them.

So saying "good players should make all the balance suggestions and the rest should shut up" is a silly notion because in many different fighters whenever a "good" player gives off "balance" suggestions for x game the reactions are always mixed/negative because of blatant bias intent or not thinking about how x change affects the entire game instead of limited matchups.

Edit On topic: I don't feel solo need direct buffs at all because the amount of health/damage currently is threatening enough, but that doesn't mean solos shouldn't get squat by default because they should "accept" being inferior to teams.

I know solos won't ever be superior or even on par to teams for already mentioned reasons, but that doesn't mean solo should be largely ignored. Like it or not they are apart of the game and what's preventing SG from being a pure Marvel fighter.
 
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