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The Power of One.

Should solo characters have a function that teams don't?

  • Yes

    Votes: 34 49.3%

  • No

    Votes: 35 50.7%
  • Total voters
    69
Spencer said:
@ClarenceMage
You are setting up a strawman. No one is saying don't play Squigs since you can't make DP work as an assist. You are effectively telling me that I need to quit playing PW to make it work as a solo (or quit my job, drop out of college, and put in thousands of hours to bring myself up to a level that might... might... be top tier. Is that what you meant by "korean/japanese" level?).

Reply to what I actually wrote, please.

I never said anything about not playing squigs, I never said anything about telling you to quit playing Painwheel. In fact, I listed an option for you to allow you to not only keep playing Painwheel, but a strictly superior version of Painwheel, one that is backed up by updo.

Yes, I do mean that a very large number of hours of work in a solo character is required to gain the skills and understanding to overcome the gap of solo vs good team. To reach equivalency, not just solos but Painwheel solo would need something just about as useful and matchup-defining as an assist, and have that option be exclusive to solos. Frankly, that's a ridiculous arbitrary exception. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it was implemented granted Skullgirls' track record on arbitrary exceptions. :^)

Spencer said:
If you think that egret charge is equal to Parasoul then you are insane.

I have literally no idea what you're talking about.


Zidiane said:
When there are other options within a character for you to use, there's no need to buff the weaker options.

But you're not playing "[Insert Solo Here]", you're playing Skullgirls - First, you are choosing to play Skullgirls. Couldn't you say that when there are options within a game for you to use, there's no need to buff the weaker options? The game starts at character select, you know~
 
Zidiane said:
If solos get a mechanic that teams don't have, it should be a defensive mechanic (not a burst). I think a defensive mechanic would help the characters who are good and bad at soloing equally, whereas a mechanic like vampire snap (a mechanic I can dig, btw) would more greatly affect the better solos who can more easily apply pressure and get a hit.
Going off this idea for a defensive mechanic. If red health for solos versus team seems to be a problem (no time for solos to regenerate health) would a burst utilizing a certain percentage of red health be a possible solution?

Also, what game is vampire snapping from?
 
ClarenceMage said:
Reply to what I actually wrote, please.

I never said anything about not playing squigs, I never said anything about telling you to quit playing Painwheel. In fact, I listed an option for you to allow you to not only keep playing Painwheel, but a strictly superior version of Painwheel, one that is backed up by updo.
ClarenceMage said:
So what exactly is stopping disgruntled solo players from either picking a better solo, or just slapping updo behind their solo?

You have effectively said that I shouldn't play the character I want to play unless I am able to put in an unreasonable amount of work to be equivalent (at best).

ClarenceMage] I have literally no idea what you're talking about. [/quote] [quote="ClarenceMage said:
... So imagine someone who for some reason REALLY likes backdash and egret cancel as assists ...

If you weren't equivocating that if we accommodate solos we'd have to accommodate assists.... what were you talking about?
 
Spencer said:
You have effectively said that I shouldn't play the character I want to play unless I am able to put in an unreasonable amount of work to be equivalent (at best).

If you want to be an efficient player, that's basically what I'm saying. But I never said you should drop Painwheel, unless playing a team is unfathomable, detestable, and completely against the very core of your being. In which case, if you're more loyal to Solos than you are to Painwheel, you should pick a better Solo so that you can have more options & better results.

Spencer said:
If you weren't equivocating that if we accommodate solos we'd have to accommodate assists.... what were you talking about?

I'm equivocating sub-optimal character select choices with other sub-optimal character select choices.

Edit: Dunno if this has been suggested already, but maybe Solos should get TTT2 style red health that regens if they're not being hit or blocking? That way, it's not a completely new mechanic, and the red life difference can be matched if you've managed to avoid being hit, or if you've hit the opponent and thus start regenerating life passively in that way as a reward for landing a hit.
 
When it tells you to select size of team, it should have a small avatar of Dan Hibiki above Solo, an avatar of Zangief above Duo, and an avatar of Cammy above Trio.

Wait...it doesn't show that.

Neither is it listed as 1 (Beginner), 2 (Intermediate), 3 (Advanced)

No all you see is 1, 2, 3. There is no implication that solo is a stepping stone for noobs, like the training wheels of the bike, something just to get your feet wet. No. It seems to suggest that hey pick whatever size team you want, regardless of your skill/experience level, and you'll be okay.

Also lol at comparing using a suboptimal assist to picking a character.
 
blufang said:
It seems to suggest that hey pick whatever size team you want, regardless of your skill/experience level, and you'll be okay.

That's the same conceit that every fighting game has with its character select screen, but over time stronger and weaker options emerge without fail.
 
blufang said:
No. It seems to suggest that hey pick whatever size team you want, regardless of your skill/experience level, and you'll be okay.
Is there a "Beginner" label above E.Honda and an "Advanced" label on top of C.Viper? If not, does that mean a beginner can pick either and be okay?
Is Ryu or ElFuerte better to learn the fundamentals of street fighter? Clearly neither is better at it since there are no "Fundamentals" / "Dumbshit" labels!
 
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Yes, but the difference is no one is saying that El Fuerte/Ryu shouldn't be balanced relative to the rest of the characters.

For the umpteenth fucking time, those of us on team solo
a. know that we are weaker than teams
b. know that if balance has to be skewed, it will go in favor of teams
c. think that if it is possible solos should be brought more in-line with teams

No one is really arguing against a or b, but rather c. Which is fucking absurd.
 
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"I want to play Bella/PW/Peacock with s.lp for all assists. Those assists are bad, but I don't want to change anything. This game isn't about good team-building, it's about giving you the choice to do what you want. And what I want to do should be effective in-game, regardless of how lacking in options it is. Please buff my preference of play, thanks."

This is pretty much what I hear from solo players who decide to stick with a sub-optimal character and then say solo isn't strong enough to compete with teams and need a buff. If you give solos a mechanic that only they can use then guess what? You now play a bad solo character with a solo-specific mechanic, while the "viable" choices are still a lot better and also have that mechanic. If you want to play a low tier option, then you deal with the consequences. If the mechanic is so strong that even the worst choices for solo can compete evenly with teams, then it's broken and there's no point in playing teams; you'll just have the good choices for solo play dominate the game.

And to be honest, this shouldn't even be contested because I see all of you go "it's not Fortune or Filia, who are very strong even solo", but then say solo characters need buffs. Pick a better option or live with it (i.e. play a better solo character). If you want to play one character only, and only like one character who is weak when alone, there's nothing Mike can do for you.

Edit: Funny enough, that example I gave isn't even as weak as it seems (alpha counters). So yeah, make a choice and live with it. You're free to choose something else if it doesn't work out. Nothing more I can say to this, so I'm done.
 
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So another idea for a defensive option for solos versus teams I'm thinking of something similar to mega crashes from Tatsunoko vs Capcom. The mechanic works as a manual burst that requires 1 bar of meter and a portion of the players health. Instead of eating into a solos main health it could require that they have red health as a sacrifice.
This idea has the following effects:
  1. Can't be spammed: The one meter cost and red health cost keep this use restricted to situations where a solo has taken damage (creating red health) and it becomes a limited resource because the meter cost.
  2. Still susceptible to reading: Unlike giving an offensive buff which doesn't lend itself to the current balance of damage/health for different sized teams, burst baiting is already a part of the Skullgirl metagame so all it would do for teams is give them something else to look out for when they start locking down a solo player.
I think adding another burst wouldn't be too big a shakeup to the existing mechanics.

Edit: Possible button input could be the assist input.
 
@PaperBag_Sniper

That scenario has no downside to sacrificing red health since solos cant regen red health. In order for the red health to be a sacrifice, solos would need to be able to regen the health. And at that point you are giving solos 2 buffs (regen and solo burst) just to make the mechanic have a semblance of balance.
 
Dime_x said:
@PaperBag_Sniper

That scenario has no downside to sacrificing red health since solos cant regen red health. In order for the red health to be a sacrifice, solos would need to be able to regen the health. And at that point you are giving solos 2 buffs (regen and solo burst) just to make the mechanic have a semblance of balance.
True, so would it be better to sacrifice a percentage of regular health? If so how should the exact amount be determined; fixed amount or based on other factors. I wouldn't mind losing regular health if it means I don't eat more damage from enemy combos.
 
any percentage would be an arbitrary number. The answer is that your mechanic... At least in my eyes, isnt good.

But dont be swayed by me, mike tends to like anything that i dont and dislike everything that i like... So me saying that i dont like that mechanic is probably a shadow endorsement to your cause.
 
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Sorry for double post but i think ive figured it out....



HOW TO BUFF SOLOS:


Give solos an "assist only" mode

Basically you pick the character you want to play as and you pick 1 or 2 assists to help you out. The caveat being that you cant actually use your assists for anything other than assists. They cant be alpha countered, they cant be dhc'd or tagged in. They can still be locked out. And any damage they take is either:

Directly transferred to the point character (the assists will always be available since they cant be killed, but the point character LOSES ITS HP if the assist gets hit)

Or

The assists can be killed and the point character loses the assist for the duration of that round. (Balanced by higher damage percentage versus those assists)




What this does:



It makes it so that people such as myself (and others) can play the 1 character of their choosing without losing the utility of an assist. It makes it so that solo characters are actually a choice to play solo, rather than simply a choice to play without assists.

It makes it so that someone can choose filias updo or parasouls pillar or bellas copter... Or anything else, and yet not have to learn those respective characters to gain access to their assists.


This could easily be balanced via damage and hp the way current solos are balanced. Also, this makes it so that choosing a true solo, is choosing a true solo. Rather than simply choosing to not learn a new character.


If this is implemented properly, it doesnt even split the community and no matter what you personally are into, there is a place for you in sg.



I can see no downsides to this.



Please if you do see some, state them here in this thread... I really think this idea could be skullgirls legacy.


-edit


So basically what you would have is:


Solo/solo plus assist(s)/duo/trio

For a total of 5 different teams (solos plus assist could be 1 assist or 2 and would be balanced via hp).. So 2 assists would be lower hp and damage whereas 1 assist would be more hp and damage, but still less than a true solo.
 
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@Dime_x Not digging the idea. If a solo decided to up his game with an updo/pillar/butt dispenser, he should accept the responsibility of either learning the second char or looking like a butt when the point character dies/gets snapped away. Getting the assist without having to learn Filia/Para/Double would be too comfortable of an option. Take the full package or take nothing.
 
If we're just throwing out ideas, I guess I gots one. Alpha Counter for solo. Spend a meter, get a super flash (no hitstop), then input any move you want to do. Can be done during blockstun, including pushblock. Allows you to do things almost like PBGC, but it's not timing sensitive and makes it easier to do qcb and reverse dps at the cost of a meter. Could allow a character like Valentine to reliably use her counter super for 3 bars. Such a change would also prevent the thing Isa was worried about, players trying to learn characters one at a time and having to abandon a mechanic to move forward, since the premise behind the mechanic is exactly the same as teams (with the exception of teams having predetermined moves).

I've actually been thinking about this because of snapbacks. Both snap backs and alpha counters don't do any damage and they cost meter, but one of them can be done as a solo against a solo. Up until recently, there was no reason to snap a solo (or a last character on a team). So I'm thinking, why not add the other meter mechanic to the last/only character on a team as well?
 
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A decent idea, but crazy overpowered as you described it. It's roughly equivalent to X-Factor cancelling out of blockstun, which you can do only once. Running solo, I nearly always have a surplus of meter available, so I'd be able to reversal out of blockstun with impunity at basically any point.
 
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Muro said:
@Dime_x Not digging the idea. If a solo decided to up his game with an updo/pillar/butt dispenser, he should accept the responsibility of either learning the second char or looking like a butt when the point character dies/gets snapped away. Getting the assist without having to learn Filia/Para/Double would be too comfortable of an option. Take the full package or take nothing.


I see what you are saying, and I agree to a certain extent but I think you are missing the fact that the point character has no alpha counter access, no red health to be gained by the point character, no dhc, which lowers the point damage ability, and no safe dhc as well. plus this would be balanced via health and damage so it wouldn't be getting all the benefits of a team. it would be getting the primary benefit of a team as well as one of the the primary weaknesses of a team, but would get no secondary benefits such as a new character to make your team more well rounded and no dead character serving as a combo breaker on incoming.
 
Pikmario said:
A decent idea, but crazy overpowered as you described it. It's roughly equivalent to X-Factor cancelling out of blockstun, which you can do only once. Running solo, I nearly always have a surplus of meter available, so I'd be able to reversal out of blockstun with impunity at basically any point.
But it has no hitstop, so the opponent would be able to mash fiber upper or a super or anything. And this is a thing that teams are already capable of doing to a more limited degree. The only reason you have more meter solo is because you don't DHC. You'd start to have the same amount of meter left over if you were blowing a meter every time you wanted to try to start a combo this way.
 
solopeacock damage plus assists.... please no. zidiane idea on the other hand... it could be though maybe just snaping the opponent.
 
Here is a spitball idea regarding solo with an assist function. Solo could utilize a chosen assist attack at the cost of a meter. That way it does give solo an extra tool, but it does have a cost too unlike duo/trio that can use assist for free outside of lockouts/cooldowns with the added versatility of DHC/AC/Raw Tagging etc.

Neat idea overall, but giving solo an assist kind of defeats the point of running solo to begin with. Reminds me of AquaPazza and to an extent MvC 1. You might as well run duo/trio if your willing to utilize assists.

The AC tool idea sounds cool and it goes with the theme that solos only rely on themselves and are considered juggernauts.
 
I think a whole meter is pretty expensive for that.
 
I don't think you should be adding new mechanics to Solo: The pure tradeoff of power, tool access and health in exchange for not having access to 1+n characters is the mechanic itself. Bad matchups be damned, those are the rules.
 
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Solo alpha counter would be far too strong at 1 meter. I would not spend meter on ANYTHING else if I could get out of pressure/get the momentum/fraud my way into a combo starter by spending one meter with a solo. If it was 2 meters, it might be fair since it sacrifices super enders for the damage, and once you start the combo from just two meters you won't gain enough to do it again when your combo's over.
 
I like the idea of giving solos roman cancel, I think that's pretty tame compared to some of the other ideas.

If a solo could roman their DP or unsafe super, I think that's a good enough option.

If even that's too powerful, then they could just roman cancel their supers only, having to spend two bars to have a similar option to dhc to cancel out their gamble if it was blocked.

I don't think solos need to buffed though.
 
DimeX's idea could actually work really well. I was thinking of something similar but didn't know how to properly implement it. I was thinking limited number of assist calls like MvC1. However Dime's idea is much better.

When a solo's assist is hit, the solo character takes 100% of that damage. This wouldn't be overpowered at all. You super the assist, the solo takes the damage. You start comboing/supering the assist and solo at the same time, solo will be taking DOUBLE damage. This would force teams to be a bit smarter with their assists since they would have to worry about counter assists in addition to the character (like they would against teams). It would help the solo open up teams more, but at gr8 risk.

Zidaine's Alpha counter idea also is very interesting, and keeps the character a true solo (without assists) while opening up interesting possibilities. Hard to guage how strong this could end up being without testing though.
 
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ninja-nutria said:
solopeacock damage plus assists.... please no. zidiane idea on the other hand... it could be though maybe just snaping the opponent.


It wouldn't be solo damage. It wouldn't be solo health. It would be less than either.

Also, if you hit an assist the damage goes directly to the point character.
This could work really well if implemented correctly.

Also, this defeating the "true" purpose of using solos doesn't make much sense. Solo isn't a career defining trait or a statement of how to play the game or live ones life. It is an option in the game.

@KhaosMuffins

Fortune already has access to bomber.
 
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@IsaVulpes pretty much won the thread. We could keep throwing ideas out here, but they're never going to be added.

Main points are:
  • Consistency: Not having to unlearn stuff when going from solo to duo.
  • Other team compositions are also bad, not just solo, so why should solo get preferential treatment?
There isn't much you can do to solo without radically changing how they work, destroying that consistency.

Mike has also said himself that if there has to be a worse team size, he'd rather it be solo because teams use more of the mechanics in the game.
 
This is all a simple discussion not official development feedback advice. Pretty sure most of us already know that our 'suggestions' won't have any influence to add changes into the game like most other gameplay suggestion threads here outside of the numerous character specific nerf/buff cries present.

Most of us here already recognized that Mike wants solo to be inferior to teams from a design perspective because they utilize more mechanics. That is perfectly fine and I agree with him if you look at the whole picture.

The question is when will solo be superior let alone par to team out of design? Will adding x mechanic already break the threshold and make them at least par? Or does it simply narrow the gap more, but teams are still the more optimized pick?

Again personally I think solo is fine enough depending on which character you decide, but could there be room for improvement without radically changing the established balance? Sure if we experiment carefully.

Vamp Snapbacks (credit to Mike), limited Assist attack, and Alpha Counters are just a few of these suggestions that doesn't seem to radically change the status quo of making teams superior depending on how it's balanced.
 
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I think we need to create a consensus on what "balanced" means before we can even begin to work on balance problems, because it seems to me that everyone has a different idea of what's "balanced" and are thus having completely different conversations when talking about it.
 
What we're neglecting to note is that the worst teams in the game are all unequivocally worse than the worst solos in the game. Solos aren't even at the bottom of the ladder; thanks to mondo damage + counter hit boost, it's really easy for Solos to random out even better teams.

Supposing you were the type of person to pick solo Painwheel, complain that she has literally any matchups worse than 5:5, and whine about Updo all the time, you'd still have a distinct advantage vs. any improperly constructed team. The IsaVulpes example teams that we don't try to buff would all get smashed, any mono-dimensional team (like Peacock that chooses a zoning assist over AAA, Squigly + Excella, or most setup-based assists) gets trashed because of what they lack on defense, and even a couple good teams lose because the health difference lets you play the match up differently.
 
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Well poor assist choice is not really comparable to picking a character. We could use Filia's worse normal as her assist, double's worse normal, valentine's normal...and say the team sucks. No. The team rocks, just the player has to put more thought into the assist he chooses.

So...what trio, using optimum assist choices for each character, is worse than the worst solos?
 
I disagree.

Think of the worst team you can and pick reasonable assists. Know that you have an 11% health/damage disadvantage which narrows every second due to red life, access to your assists, DHC, and whatever other benefits an assist gives to you.

I'm not necessarily solo in that case is better, but I am saying that solo is about par... and that's creating the worst possible team you can.
 
Yeah, and then you lose 66% life by being a Trio and getting hit by a single Bella Lv3.. or 60% life by being a Duo, calling assist in the corner and getting hit.. and start to think about that stance..

How about you actually try playing a team before you blankly state things like that
I guess people will forever enjoy strutting around with a "I play shit tier; all my wins are because I am 1600% better than them, all my losses are because they play the better characters, I have a big dick" mindset
 
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blufang said:
Well poor assist choice is not really comparable to picking a character. We could use Filia's worse normal as her assist, double's worse normal, valentine's normal...and say the team sucks. No. The team rocks, just the player has to put more thought into the assist he chooses.

So...what trio, using optimum assist choices for each character, is worse than the worst solos?

Spencer said:
I disagree.

Think of the worst team you can and pick reasonable assists. Know that you have an 11% health/damage disadvantage which narrows every second due to red life, access to your assists, DHC, and whatever other benefits an assist gives to you.

I'm not necessarily solo in that case is better, but I am saying that solo is about par... and that's creating the worst possible team you can.


choosing assists is part of picking a team guys. by saying "but pick reasonable assists" you are missing the entire point of the example given
 
Wrong.

An assist doesn't make a character viable. We are talking about character viability.

I could make PW the worst character in the game by insisting I win only by using s.lp, but what's that have to do with the relative health of solo vs team?
 
all the characters are viable. solo isn't a character. its a team dynamic.
 
One mistake is all it takes when playing against a solo (though this was more like 2 mistakes).
@2:02:30
 
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