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The Smash Bros Discussion Thread

Sanoblaze said:
I hope we get the most American character next to Little Mac

Captain
Rainbow!
20140316074310!Captain_Rainbow_Artwork.png

I'm pretty sure he's only very American in 19 states. A shame. In 31 he's illegal. What's with that?

TechPowah said:
Anyway, I doubt we will get anything significant for Independence Day, but if there was, my best guess would be something EarthBound related, or at least Mother 1 since it actually takes place in America/"Eagleland".

As long as Earthbounds gets a new stage that's good. I've been going through AllStar Mode in Brawl to get every Final Smash trophy as of late and every time New Pork City comes around I cringe. That stage is TOO BIG. Palutena's Temple at least has some interactable environments and stuff.
 
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I just hope EarthBound (as in the game itself) gets better representation compared to Brawl; No new music from EB, just from Mothers 1 and 3, and then they even took out Fourside's music, which was the only one from EB. In fact, the only stuff that originated from EB rather than Mother 1 or 3 left in Brawl beyond the nonsequential stuff like trophies and stickers was Ness himself, Onett, Jeff, Porky and the items, and even then Porky was represented as the Mother 3 version and Onett was ported from Melee.
 
you know what need representation more than Earthbound
Mother 1
in that it needs representation
when's Mt. Itoi
 
Mother 1 got representation. Granted, it's mostly just the music in New Pork and Onett and Brawl!Ness/Lucas's fanfare, but there's also that the zoo level in Subspace was pretty much a big homage to the zoo from Mother 1.
 
Horseman said:
...what?
He's got one alt costume. The wireframe is a recolor by that definition (retexture or texture swap is probably more accurate but hey whatever floats your boat.)

I'd say the wireframe and the thing Link got recently count as alts. I know they are just retextures, but they're more work than just recoloring the outfit the character is already wearing. I think both will be counted as alts in the final game. Alts might be unlockable too.
 
Crayolan said:
I'd say the wireframe and the thing Link got recently count as alts. I know they are just retextures, but they're more work than just recoloring the outfit the character is already wearing. I think both will be counted as alts in the final game. Alts might be unlockable too.

I could see Wireframe Mac being an alt (though characters having two alts feels a little off to me) but I definitely think Link's SS getup is just a color, like Ness' Mr. Saturn shirt, mostly because it doesn't really change anything about his tunic except the color and design on it, it's the same clothes and layers and all.

Though I definitely can see Wireframe Mac being another color as well.
 
The fact that you can't see any of the wireframe behind Mac just baffles me. You just see the ones you can see with nothing behind.

Like, how does that even WORK

smash_bros_little_mac.jpg


Also nice cel-shaded shorts bruh
 
Crayolan said:
(different from recolors, like the Mac on the right)
The wireframe... is... a... RECOLOUR!

Why can't people get it? I've done this stuff before!

Crayolan said:
I'd say the wireframe and the thing Link got recently count as alts. I know they are just retextures, but they're more work than just recoloring the outfit the character is already wearing. I think both will be counted as alts in the final game. Alts might be unlockable too.

They are just as much work as every other colour on a character. It's not like they just take the base colour, change the hue and paste it back in as another colour. Each one takes as much effort as the next. Dark link alters a WHOPPING TWO extra variables: Eyes and skin colour. Both of which take literally minutes.

Goodbye18000 said:
The fact that you can't see any of the wireframe behind Mac just baffles me. You just see the ones you can see with nothing behind.

Like, how does that even WORK

Also nice cel-shaded shorts bruh

Because the textures are programmed to be viewed from one side. Ever managed to get the camera to go through a character in a 3D rpg like Super Mario 64 or Majora's Mask? It's made up solely of textures mounted to a frame and are only viewable from one side (the outside) because that's the only side you're supposed to be seeing anyways.

It happens with Mac here because it is:
1. Convenient because hey! It looks great! Why bother coding that? Because
2. Being able to see the wires on the other side would make it look clumped and horrible. Too many wires.
 
Rellek said:
They are just as much work as every other colour on a character.

While I agree that they are recolors, these would take a LOT more work. The formula to make it so that only the outside lines show on Wireframe Mac? A lot of work. And while it is still just retexturing, there's more work to designing the civie Link color than just making it blue/red/purp.

That's why I like to think of them as advanced recolors, cause they are. Or even "skins". Costumes aren't the most accurate cause it implies a new model (like hoodie Mac and Male Wii Fit Trainer).

But this is just semantics. Let's just appreciate the awesome work of the alts in this game.
 
It's actually no work at all if you read the rest of my post there. The textures are naturally only viewable from one side. They literally didn't do any extra work whatsoever, it just fell into place like that.

EDIT: For the wireframe Mac texture. For some reason quoting that didn't work, oh well.
 
Rellek said:
It's actually no work at all if you read the rest of my post there. The textures are naturally only viewable from one side. They literally didn't do any extra work whatsoever, it just fell into place like that.

I think what he's trying to say is,
you go from something like Green tunic Link to Red tunic Link, all you essentially have to do is throw Link's texture map into photoshop, highlight the tunic parts and adjust the color till it's red (obviously there's more to it in the professional process, but that's just a basic summation),
but with something like Wireframe Mac or to a lesser extent Link's SS tunic, you actually have to create a new texture map because the patterns and textures are completely different, you can't get a Wireframe Mac texture just by recoloring Mac's original texture, like you could do to make his classic or World Circuit colors.
You feelin' me?
 
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TheMightyBox said:
I think what he's trying to say is,
you go from something like Green tunic Link to Red tunic Link, all you essentially have to do is throw Link's texture map into photoshop, highlight the tunic parts and adjust the color till it's red (obviously there's more to it in the professional process, but that's just a basic summation),
but with something like Wireframe Mac or to a lesser extent Link's SS tunic, you actually have to create a new texture map because the patterns and textures are completely different, you can't get a Wireframe Mac texture just by recoloring Mac's original texture, like you could do to make his classic or World Circuit colors.
You feelin' me?
Yeah, I'm feelin' ya now. There are some that can be rather simple. Like Ness's Saturn shirt (Black texture with a saturn on it, so great, much wow) and, to an extent, Link's SS tunic (Buncha symmetrical sguigglies). Wireframe mac is definitely a from-the-ground-up kind of texture in that sense. Gotta do another proceedure, I gotcha.
 
Rellek said:
The wireframe... is... a... RECOLOUR!

Why can't people get it? I've done this stuff before!
Question.
Is Wire-Frame Little Mac wearing a shirt? No?
Does normal Little Mac wear a shirt? Yes?
That means his clothes are different.
Wire-Frame Little Mac is, by definition, an alternate costume.
 
Dr.Sanity said:
Question.
Is Wire-Frame Little Mac wearing a shirt? No?
Does normal Little Mac wear a shirt? Yes?
That means his clothes are different.
Wire-Frame Little Mac is, by definition, an alternate costume.
Wow... Smashboards feels more competent than this...
 
Maybe we should establish something
at this critical juncture.

When we're talking about recolors, we're talking the red blue green costumes that establish which player is which in mirror matches and stuff.
When we're talking costumes, we're talking about the difference between biker Wario and overalls Wario.

This discussion/argument isn't about whether or not SS Link is TECHNICALLY a recolor or a costume or whatever, we're trying to figure out how the stuff's gonna be displayed in the game, whether or not there will be multiple colors for this special costume.
Will there be a red blue and yellow Wireframe Mac?
That's what we're talking about.
 
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Calypsx said:
It's more of a discussion than an argument.

Besides, i'm learning things I didn't know about the process of making alts.
That was my whole train of thought. I was hoping SOMEONE was learning something.

TheMightyBox said:
Maybe we should establish something
at this critical juncture.

When we're talking about recolors, we're talking the red blue green costumes that establish which player is which in mirror matches and stuff.
When we're talking costumes, we're talking about the difference between biker Wario and overalls Wario.

This discussion/argument isn't about whether or not SS Link is TECHNICALLY a recolor or a costume or whatever, we're trying to figure out how the stuff's gonna be displayed in the game, whether or not there will be multiple colors for this special costume.
Will there be a red blue and yellow Wireframe Mac?
That's what we're talking about.
In that case, I'm not sure. I put my vote into the "It's really just a normal recolour, but Sakurai is making a huge deal out of it because there's not much else he can hype up without leaking the roster" category.
 
Ruin said:
arguing semantics is a fruitless gesture
Arguing semantics is all forumites ever do.
 
This is another really pointless discussion. It doesn't matter what we distinguish them as, because at the end of the day not even the game itself distinguishes alternate costumes as being any different from alternate colors.

Just look at the previous games. There are plenty of alt costumes and alt colors, and the way they are handled is completely unique to each character that has them. Some characters just have alt colors. Some characters (like Pika and Jigs) have alt costumes that are ALSO alt colors, but there is only one color for each costume. Wario has two costumes, both of which have many colors. Ice climbers have alt colors, and some of them switch which character is human controlled.

The point is that we should stop arguing over whether "this" or "that" is an alt costume or an alternate color because it doesn't matter. We won't know how they'll each be handled as it's likely that they'll all be handled on an individual basis. If you think one thing is an alt costume but someone calls it an alt color, then please just ignore it and move on.

Little Mac's wire frame is an alt costume with a heavily recolored base texture. An alt costume is just a costume that is different from the default costume. Default Mac wears a shirt, wire frame Mac doesn't wear a shirt. It doesn't matter how different they are, all that matters is that they are different.
 
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Goodbye18000 said:
The fact that you can't see any of the wireframe behind Mac just baffles me. You just see the ones you can see with nothing behind.

Like, how does that even WORK

That's actually a standard method for rendering 3D models in games. Each face (and vertex) has an associated normal vector, of which is used to determine how a light source would interact with the geometry of the model. Normal vectors also represent the faces that would be considered the "front" of the geometry. Most games purposefully only render the side of the face that contains the normal vector, so anytime you would expect to see the inside of a model the light simply passes through and the inside isn't rendered. Hence why you only see the parts of wire frame Mac that face the camera and not the texture on the other side. It's possible that every character in the game is rendered in this manner, though it would only be noticeable on wire frame Mac since that particular alt is only partially opaque.

Some games do the exact opposite though. For example, Monster Hunter renders the inside of geometry. If they didn't, then monsters wouldn't be rendered at all if the camera was placed within the monster (something that happens a lot if you're not familiar with the series).
 
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Skullmageddon said:
Some games do the exact opposite though. For example, Monster Hunter renders the inside of geometry. If they didn't, then monsters wouldn't be rendered at all if the camera was placed within the monster (something that happens a lot if you're not familiar with the series).


Huh. That's really cool. TIL
 
Skullmageddon said:
This is another really pointless discussion. It doesn't matter what we distinguish them as, because at the end of the day not even the game itself distinguishes alternate costumes as being any different from alternate colors.

Just look at the previous games. There are plenty of alt costumes and alt colors, and the way they are handled is completely unique to each character that has them. Some characters just have alt colors. Some characters (like Pika and Jigs) have alt costumes that are ALSO alt colors, but there is only one color for each costume. Wario has two costumes, both of which have many colors. Ice climbers have alt costumes, and some of them switch which character is human controlled.

The point is that we should stop arguing over whether "this" or "that" is an alt costume or an alternate color because it doesn't matter. We won't know how they'll each be handled as it's likely that they'll all be handled on an individual basis. If you think one thing is an alt costume but someone calls it an alt color, then please just ignore it and move on.

Little Mac's wire frame is an alt costume with a heavily recolored base texture. An alt costume is just a costume that is different from the default costume. Default Mac wears a shirt, wire frame Mac doesn't wear a shirt. It doesn't matter how different they are, all that matters is that they are different.

Bro,
why you trying to stop our discussion?
You weren't even like, a part of it until this post where you're telling people to stop.
I didn't even wanna argue semantics but here we go.

Pikachu and Jigglypuff's """"""alt costumes"""""" are really just alternate colors.
They're alternate colors in the same vein as alt colors in UMvC3 or something, where they sometimes give She-Hulk shorts or Captain America gets a differently shaped shield.
TECHNICALLY they're alternate costumes but the game actually treats them as alternate colors, since Pokemon don't naturally have different coloration and Sakurai didn't want to stray too far from canon (at least in 64 as every pokemon newcomer since has had more or less classic recoloring options (except Pichu but that's just because he's based on Pikachu)) so instead of making them a color that they normally can't be, they just get accessory to distinguish them in mirror matches.

And Ice Climbers and Wario pretty much have the standard alt costume, each one with alt colors.

And beyond that the only thing that's unique about the color/costume choices of the other characters is the number of colors they have, or special texture edits like Ness' Mr. Saturn shirt.

So really it is a fair question to ask, will Wireframe Mac be an alt costume with its own recolors or will it just be one of his colors like Dark Link or Wizard Pikachu or Mr. Saturn Shirt Ness? Will SS tunic Link?

And yeah we're not really accomplishing anything by discussing it (though no speculative discussion REALLY accomplishes anything) but it's not hurting anyone, why shouldn't we be having this discussion?
 
Crayolan said:
I'd say the wireframe and the thing Link got recently count as alts. I know they are just retextures, but they're more work than just recoloring the outfit the character is already wearing. I think both will be counted as alts in the final game. Alts might be unlockable too.
Not saying it isn't perfectly fine logic (because frankly I don't care that much what your definition of alt costume is) but the most confusing part of your comment was the claim that little mac was the first character to get 2 alt costumes. By that logic villager has 3 alt costumes and likely more coming, pikachu has always had 4 alt costumes barring 64, etc.

For in-game accuracy's sake, alt costumes are more defined as alternate versions of a character that have their own color swaps. The "model change" idea isn't vague but seems to leave in a lot of things the game doesn't consider alt costumes (IE alternate male villager, daisy peach, pikachu/jigglypuff hats.)
So basically, do you think we'll get alternate wireframe mac colors? Alternate hoodie colors? I could definitely see the hoodie getting colors, but not sure about wireframe mac. It's unnecessary and most people will probably go for the classic green, but then again it's also really fucking easy so why not throw in red/blue wireframe mac?

TheMightyBox said:
And yeah we're not really accomplishing anything by discussing it (though no speculative discussion REALLY accomplishes anything) but it's not hurting anyone, why shouldn't we be having this discussion?
Off topic, but I've found that a pretty good chunk of people who post on most forums can't tell the difference between a discussion and bickering. I don't understand why people come to a forum but don't expect anyone to have an extended conversation. That's the reason this is a forum and not an IRC room.
 
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TheMightyBox said:
--snip snip--

I'm not really sure what the point of your argument was. If you read my comments then go back and read your own, you'll find that you pretty much said the same things that I said regarding examples of alt colors and costumes from previous games. In other words, I agree with everything you've said.

But to answer your last question, I wasn't saying we shouldn't discuss alt colors and costumes. That's a perfectly fine point to talk about. I was saying that we shouldn't argue over the semantics that distinguish alt colors from alt costumes. If someone calls something an alt color and you think it should be called an alt costume, then whatever man. Let's just talk about the different looks we're getting for each character and not worry about what we call them.

For example, we can discuss whether or not wire frame mac will have its own alternate color without arguing over whether or not we should call it an "alt costume" or an "alt color." Debating nomenclature doesn't have anything to do with this argument, especially when you consider the fact that some alt costumes also had alt colors in previous games while others didn't.

I would personally argue that wire frame Mac probably won't have different colors, making it a standalone alt. It comes from the arcade version of Punch Out which, to my recollection, only has one version of wire frame Mac. Sakurai usually sticks to canon as much as he can, so I can't imagine he'd bother making an alt color for wire frame Mac since he was originally only green. But who knows, he might make different wire frame colors just so that people who really like wire frame mac don't have to fight over the alt when playing together.

tldr; let's try to not argue over things (such as grammar and semantics) that don't have anything to do with our discussions.
 
Goodbye18000 said:
The fact that you can't see any of the wireframe behind Mac just baffles me. You just see the ones you can see with nothing behind.

Like, how does that even WORK



Also nice cel-shaded shorts bruh

Basically, 3d planes have a "side" called the normal (ie the direction it faces) that is visible, the other side isn't. So this effect is actually kinda easy to produce, unless you give both sides of a plane normals, only 1 well display texture towards the camera.

EDIT: SHoulda checked the next page to see if it was already answered >.<
 
Skullmageddon said:
For example, we can discuss whether or not wire frame mac will have its own alternate color without arguing over whether or not we should call it an "alt costume" or an "alt color." Debating nomenclature doesn't have anything to do with this argument, especially when you consider the fact that some alt costumes also had alt colors in previous games while others didn't.

But they didn't, that was the entire point of my previous post.
If a character had an "alt costume" that didn't have any alt colors, it wasn't an alt costume it was an alt color that made use of a different texture model to avoid non-canon color schemes.

And yes this entire argument (that is, the entire argument within this post) is semantics, but it's semantics that are important to establish so we don't get discussion contributions that are just "well, Wireframe Mac doesn't have a shirt, therefore it can't be an alt color because it's not just a recolor" when that's not even the discussion.
 
Horseman said:
Not saying it isn't perfectly fine logic (because frankly I don't care that much what your definition of alt costume is) but the most confusing part of your comment was the claim that little mac was the first character to get 2 alt costumes. By that logic villager has 3 alt costumes and likely more coming, pikachu has always had 4 alt costumes barring 64, etc.

For in-game accuracy's sake, alt costumes are more defined as alternate versions of a character that have their own color swaps. The "model change" idea isn't vague but seems to leave in a lot of things the game doesn't consider alt costumes (IE alternate male villager, daisy peach, pikachu/jigglypuff hats.)
So basically, do you think we'll get alternate wireframe mac colors? Alternate hoodie colors? I could definitely see the hoodie getting colors, but not sure about wireframe mac. It's unnecessary and most people will probably go for the classic green, but then again it's also really fucking easy so why not throw in red/blue wireframe mac?

You make a good point with Pikachu (and Jigglypuff now that I think about it), I completely forgot about that. But I'd think Villager is an exception since as far as we know he doesn't have the standard recolors, instead the different villagers ARE the recolors. Of course each Villager could get their own set of colors, but I'm not counting on that.

I guess if we're defining alt costumes by your defition, then no one really has any alt costumes aside from Wario. Does the male WFT have its own set of colors?
 
Crayolan said:
I guess if we're defining alt costumes by your defition, then no one really has any alt costumes aside from Wario. Does the male WFT have its own set of colors?

Male WFT does have alternate colors.
In the demo, both he and the female version had both a blue and green outfit.
 
I'm going to spoiler things because this is getting lengthy and off topic :P

TheMightyBox said:
...If a character had an "alt costume" that didn't have any alt colors, it wasn't an alt costume it was an alt color...

Again, semantics don't matter here. We can say Pikachu has alt colors, or we can argue that they should be called alt costumes. Semantics have no bearing in this discussion. The point is that Sakurai gave Pikachu various accessories so that he could differentiate them without actually changing the color of Pikachu too much. THAT is a logical point from which one may draw an argument regarding Mac's alts, not whether or not we should call the alt one thing or another.

...but it's semantics that are important to establish...

Sometimes defining things is important when having a discussion like this, sometimes it isn't. In this particular case, semantics don't matter. Let's do a little experiment:

:PUN: = alternate color, alternate costume, and alternate color/costume

Now let's make a sentence.

"I like Little Mac's wire frame :PUN:, it looks awesome! Do you guys think it will be a standalone :PUN:, or do you think it will have multiple colors? I personally think it will be a standalone :PUN: because the original wire frame Mac only had one color and Sakurai tends to respect what's canon. Even so, I think it's possible that Mac's wire frame :PUN: could get different colors."

See what I did there? I made a sensible argument using some manner of precedent or logical reasoning without having to argue over semantics or definitions. Hell, I didn't even have to use a WORD to make my argument. The point is that you can call it whatever you want, but we don't have to fight over semantics to have this discussion.


To get back on topic, what kind of alts do you guys think Pac-Man will get? There is precedent for changing Pac-Man's colors drastically, particularly in multiplayer arcade games like "Battle Royale" where each player controls a distinctly colored Pac-Man. Of course, the Pac-Man in Smash is largely based off of the "Pac-Man World" series (and other titles with similar design), in which Pac-Man is simply yellow as usual.

Personally, I think it would be more appropriate to treat him like Sonic, Pikachu, Jigs, etc. because I think making drastic changes to his overall body color would just look weird given his design and characteristics. Not to mention, everyone knows that Pac-Man should be yellow. Things like alternate boot and glove colors with slightly different shades of yellow/orange for his body color seem more likely in his case. A Mrs. Pac-Man alt would also be nice to see.

I hope you guys haven't discussed this already. I tend to check this thread intermittently, so I miss a lot sometimes :P

Edit: Now that I think about it, I wonder how colors will work for the Mii Fighters as well...
 
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TheMightyBox said:
Male WFT does have alternate colors.
In the demo, both he and the female version had both a blue and green outfit.

Okay thanks. In that case I wonder if the Pink Hoodie will have its own colors. We could see a situation where each character has 3 colors and an alt that has its own 3 colors.

I say 3 because every characters need 3 at the bare minimum for red/blue/green team matches.
 
The natural predator of the color white is a Tanner.
 
go to sleep knowing that you made that pun
and feel good about yourself
 
Well there's already a Red Sonic in smash 4. So that's something.
 
What about white Sonic?
 
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