The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

[Nuuance]

My brother in christ, if we don't nerf fortune meter gain she will still be doing the same things she is doing now, but in different ways. Her meter gain is one of the main reasons fortune is so top tier so not touching that is going to keep a lot of her very dumb shenanigans. Imo the way to go with fortune nerfs is to heavily nerf the meter gain, change some damage numbers, and some hitbox reductions.

thats why i mention damage & scaling (heavily) curtailed.

Because meter isnt just a penalty to her but your entire team past her. for sure tone down a bit, but again why would meter be a problem in the first place if her damage with supers and primary moves/scaling was appropriate. also assuming DHC into annie is one of the biggest issues in which case making pillar a decent lvl3 id assume is the best solution. Again I dont really disagree, but i think damage is more the issue than meter itself. We hardly can do much with meter as it is apart from dhcs & that's *the* lifeblood in this game.

If meter is hit hard enough to the point where people just drop all together then we still have the same problem but instead people merely migrating to a different character; only now we have a deleted toon, more narrow meta & now general ire shifted to another skullgirl/guy. Not to exaggerate but that's whats been happening for a while lately...People more willing to drop if something isnt worth it & picking next best. Whether annie, band or whoever people gravitate to.

 

[Stuff]

I'm mostly concerned of Fortune getting nerfed heavily then other optimized team is the popular pick and we're in the same boat again so I'm genuinely hoping for a best case scenario where one character doesn't get put into the dirt while another gets overlooked and we're back to square one.

 

[dekillsage]

To replicate the Fortune/Annie shell, you need 2 other characters, and that's still not quite what the shell is doing. Annie is doing it by herself

You're tilting me PME there is no difference in me playing Fortune/Combo DHC+ Utility Assist/ DP assist. That is the same as Fortune/Combo DHC+DP/ Utility Assist and even then you can do Fortune/Combo DHC + DP/ Utility assist with Parasoul and Filia for free so its not even exclusive to Annie either. Annie DP assist is better ~for fortunes~ and better ~vs fortune~ and that's just unlucky.

Also once again the happy birthday and conversion potential is a Ms.Fortune problem not an Annie DP problem. Try getting that reward with other characters and see how consistent you can get it compared to the Fortunes. Cat girls are just OD, unlucky for us.

 

[Turvon]

I'm mostly concerned of Fortune getting nerfed heavily then other optimized team is the popular pick and we're in the same boat again so I'm genuinely hoping for a best case scenario where one character doesn't get put into the dirt while another gets overlooked and we're back to square one.

But also shoot fortune

 

[sheep]

4: m bobble - I’m begging for an m bobble hunger reversion. having its hunger consumption reduced was supposed to allow her to m bobble in neutral more but I find that it just makes it harder to play neutral aswell as nerfing her ability to combo down her hunger bar

Example: ravenous 2 pips - I L bubble(no hold) M bubble, I am satiated now with my only option to get back to rav being h bubble (LAGGY, SAD)

Do it with the hold and youll be starving. If they were equal in hunger consumption this problem would be solved and shed have better control over her bar.

why would you not spare if you're at 2 pips, you have 1 1/2 pips to work with still

the character leans heavily into resource management much more when reaching ravenous instead of blowing bubbles without thought

 

[Ranger]

Idk If I've missed any news regarding this or not so I'll try asking here - how's this whole multiplayer refactor thing going? Maybe some dev could provide feedback for once cause its been a while and I'm a little concerned with my current online beta experience. I know its supposed to "smoothen" connection but so far all it did was 25-50% in ping increase to people I usually play with, with some complaining about input delay/lag and such. I've even made a bug report about it on discord but got no reply for it. Dont wanna find myself in QM being refused matches because game now show previously yellow connections as red (or its now correct unlike before, I dont know!) so I had to at least ask about it all.

Also as a side note, do we ever get to see P2 "Change stage" button at least addressed/removed? Cause I swear, one of these days I'll report it being a bug for simply existing.

 

[sheep]

why would you not spare if you're at 2 pips, you have 1 1/2 pips to work with still

the character leans heavily into resource management much more when reaching ravenous instead of blowing bubbles without thought

that being said I still do think she should get back full pip mbobble back so with certain routing from red to blue with lowered ptooie vortex

after murdering the point she's usually about near blue so instead of having to blow about 8 bubbles you can reach ravenous in 4 with full pip bobble

https://twitter.com/x/status/1550244841883217920

after killing the point here I can dump 2 bobbles max and get good incoming + only ~2 pips away from rav, assuming bobble drains a full pip

as a last thought I also think mbobble draining a alarming amount of hunger like this is good since it plays into her zoning game a lot more and forces the opponent to stop her from getting her win condition by navigating her field of bubbles, but it would be nice if she could get interesting tools like holding down mk to instantly pop the bobble to bait people into you or change the arc of ptooie by holding down buttons or something simpler like projectile invuln ptooie

she's parasoul's sister for christ's sake, she deserves more flexibility in controlling the area if she has low mobility

 

[Triviality]

remove the lockout from det mode air dash please im begging you

 

[Façade]

Since there's no beta balance changes yet, I'd like to share my own personal wishlist.

Filia

As she is right now, I think Filia could use a tiny bit more buffs. Namely for c.MK to confirm into s.HP more consistently from range and for her to receive the tiniest crumb of damage, please. As for whether or not j.HK should hit overhead, I personally don't have any strong opinions about that change one way or the other. The move is designed to halt your air momentum and hit cross-up from an airdash. Making it overhead wouldn't really open up any new avenues or solve her greater issues in my eyes, but I wouldn't be opposed to it.

Peacock

All I ask for Peacock is for Lenny to be 2 bars and for Georges to go away when she gets hit, please.

Parasoul

Reduce the recovery of Egret Dive so that it's more useful against zoners.

Ms. Fortune

Since so many other people have said their thoughts on this character, I'm just gonna give my two cents. Yes, this character is too strong and needs to be reined in. In general her jumping hurtbox is too small and her damage output needs to be toned down, but her meterbuild is fine and doesn't need adjusting. Especially in the context of her kit where she has bad assists compared to other characters. Head-On Fibers should be Strike Invuln and be more minus, and j.LK should not hit cross-up or hit overhead while rising from a double jump with how powerful the move is.

Valentine

Please make Bypass not whiff randomly; please increase the hitbox of c.HP so that it actually covers her arm; please let us more easily choose which side to be on after we DHC out of EKG; please make Mortuary Drop not a useless filler move that you use just to meme on your opponent.

Double

What do I even say what I want that I haven't said already? Firstly, revert the L Luger nerf. This has been one of the most baffling and unnecessary nerfs I've seen and seeing people defend this makes me believe that they just want to approach and press buttons free of consequences. Please explain to me why this nerf needed to happen. Because it was the best grounded projectile in the game and the move was too oppressive and rewarding? In a game with Georges and Beams, if you're saying that L Luger was the best grounded projectile in the game, you're capping. A lot of characters have tools to get around it and converting from that move already scales your follow up. And don't tell me that forced damage scaling doesn't matter, because it absolutely does. To make it less redundant and distinguish it more from H Luger? A flimsy argument because the two moves by design cover different angles and convert from different spaces. The reason why L Luger is used more than H Luger is because shockingly, neutral interactions happen more often horizontally than they do vertically. In fact the nerf makes that argument even worse because the areas where you convert from become less distinct. To help characters like Beowulf, Eliza, and Big Band? Congrats, you made the Double matchup less painful for them! Now here's Peacock and Robo to make their lives even worse than pre-nerf Double. If you're going for this angle, then suggest buffs for those characters instead.

Okay, rant over!

Secondly, find a way for M Bomber to not drop at certain ranges and whiff against crouchers. Why did you give this move a negative disjoint but still haven't ironed out all the jank this move had since launch? Give the move its disjoint back if possible, too. Thirdly, revert the Level 5 damage nerf partially. Obviously not to pre-nerf levels, but a solid middle ground in between would be nice. Fourthly, have Catheads drag down on air hit if possible to increase damage and combo consistency.

Big Band

I only have two changes for this character, and I'm fine with either change happening if both aren't possible together. First, increase the landing recovery of Tympany Drive on block in order to make punishing this move less of a dice roll. Second, decrease the parry window. Having a 17 frame parry window on normals is absolute bonkers on a character with so many defensive options.

Eliza

Have the projectile armor on her sweep come out sooner. That's all I got.

Annie

Either tone down the damage on her DP slightly or increase the recovery of H DP when used as an assist. But above all else, please just give her some competition as a generalist glue character.

 

[Stuff]

My argument for L luger is that it's just a projectile you use to fill space and if you mindlessly press it and it hits you profit from just fishing but honestly if Annie gets to keep H crescent which is quite similar in application w/e I guess. Why shouldn't she keep it if Annie gets to do something I find even more dumb anyway. Part of my suggestions were mostly under the impression we'd tone more things down (peacock bombs go away something about item drop and w/e else) over time so that the weaker characters can compete without making everything broken but as more time dealing with Annie passed idk what to think to me it seems more like the game is going in not-that-direction. (and B Dahlia also concerns me with how strong some of her bullets look)

And also my problem with Annie DP is that it's literally the same hitbox for it's entire travel (no other DPs do this) and the reward is instant carry to the corner with the right character (which most DPs don't do). I just really have a distaste for having to also run that assist to combat it while also having to play a character I dislike to play against the character I dislike (This was Band edition for me and however long I had to play double despite not liking her but at the time she was kind of necessary). Annie's dp reminds me a lot of L beat when Band was first introduced. It's fast and it hits things and you generally get an easy conversion all the while (new!) having a character that is extremely good in the second slot (and invalidating other 2nd slots in the process) where you can ignore most of the problems because you just hit with someone else and annie cleans up the rest (actually this sounds like big band too so maybe not "new!" but "new and improved!"). (I'd have less of a problem if other characters weren't so stunted [like painwheel who cannot fly away from annie DP if you engage not perfectly because flight is really slow and overly penalized] or had assists that could do something about it and it not only being brass or beam [the counter characters EXIST but they are not as good as the strong characters]) an angle adjustment might help, afaik it looks to be angled a little more outwardly.

Initially I thought it was kind of a benign assist but it honestly feels centralizing like you just NEED it, I don't like that, I'd like for other assists to compete as well but Annie's DP just feels egregious for what it is and what it does. Even if you can't convert from it it still feels necessary to counter the other Annie DP user and with the right config it's annoying to even want to snap Annie in because she's not exactly bad either, she has good neutral the best AA button in the game (which she can press twice) decent pokes a large throw a good dash speed stuff other characters (for the most part) could dream of ever having. It's like somehow Bella and Double (and somehow Squigly's ground dash?) fused and this is just what we gotta deal with now. I personally have stopped liking dealing with this character in general after my initial impressions which were more positive but at the time she barely came out so this is my opinion of her now, I've changed my mind.

I too, would like it if other characters could compete in this meta but I still wish I knew what the goal was so I could more easily suggest things with whatever the game wants to align as but as of right now we're experiencing immense power creep and only some but not all characters are benefiting from it. (I know the patch is coming though and hopefully it fixes stuff like that)

That's just how I feel personally, at least. Whether it's by nerfs or buffs I really don't care anymore, I just really hope the end result is fun because right now I'm not having fun.

 

[Turvon]

Since there's no beta balance changes yet, I'd like to share my own personal wishlist.

Filia

As she is right now, I think Filia could use a tiny bit more buffs. Namely for c.MK to confirm into s.HP more consistently from range and for her to receive the tiniest crumb of damage, please. As for whether or not j.HK should hit overhead, I personally don't have any strong opinions about that change one way or the other. The move is designed to halt your air momentum and hit cross-up from an airdash. Making it overhead wouldn't really open up any new avenues or solve her greater issues in my eyes, but I wouldn't be opposed to it.

Peacock

All I ask for Peacock is for Lenny to be 2 bars and for Georges to go away when she gets hit, please.

Parasoul

Reduce the recovery of Egret Dive so that it's more useful against zoners.

Ms. Fortune

Since so many other people have said their thoughts on this character, I'm just gonna give my two cents. Yes, this character is too strong and needs to be reined in. In general her jumping hurtbox is too small and her damage output needs to be toned down, but her meterbuild is fine and doesn't need adjusting. Especially in the context of her kit where she has bad assists compared to other characters. Head-On Fibers should be Strike Invuln and be more minus, and j.LK should not hit cross-up or hit overhead while rising from a double jump with how powerful the move is.

Valentine

Please make Bypass not whiff randomly; please increase the hitbox of c.HP so that it actually covers her arm; please let us more easily choose which side to be on after we DHC out of EKG; please make Mortuary Drop not a useless filler move that you use just to meme on your opponent.

Double

What do I even say what I want that I haven't said already? Firstly, revert the L Luger nerf. This has been one of the most baffling and unnecessary nerfs I've seen and seeing people defend this makes me believe that they just want to approach and press buttons free of consequences. Please explain to me why this nerf needed to happen. Because it was the best grounded projectile in the game and the move was too oppressive and rewarding? In a game with Georges and Beams, if you're saying that L Luger was the best grounded projectile in the game, you're capping. A lot of characters have tools to get around it and converting from that move already scales your follow up. And don't tell me that forced damage scaling doesn't matter, because it absolutely does. To make it less redundant and distinguish it more from H Luger? A flimsy argument because the two moves by design cover different angles and convert from different spaces. The reason why L Luger is used more than H Luger is because shockingly, neutral interactions happen more often horizontally than they do vertically. In fact the nerf makes that argument even worse because the areas where you convert from become less distinct. To help characters like Beowulf, Eliza, and Big Band? Congrats, you made the Double matchup less painful for them! Now here's Peacock and Robo to make their lives even worse than pre-nerf Double. If you're going for this angle, then suggest buffs for those characters instead.

Okay, rant over!

Secondly, find a way for M Bomber to not drop at certain ranges and whiff against crouchers. Why did you give this move a negative disjoint but still haven't ironed out all the jank this move had since launch? Give the move its disjoint back if possible, too. Thirdly, revert the Level 5 damage nerf partially. Obviously not to pre-nerf levels, but a solid middle ground in between would be nice. Fourthly, have Catheads drag down on air hit if possible to increase damage and combo consistency.

Big Band

I only have two changes for this character, and I'm fine with either change happening if both aren't possible together. First, increase the landing recovery of Tympany Drive on block in order to make punishing this move less of a dice roll. Second, decrease the parry window. Having a 17 frame parry window on normals is absolute bonkers on a character with so many defensive options.

Eliza

Have the projectile armor on her sweep come out sooner. That's all I got.

Annie

Either tone down the damage on her DP slightly or increase the recovery of H DP when used as an assist. But above all else, please just give her some competition as a generalist glue character.

give filia fukuas 2mp and doubles 2hp too while we are at it, its pretty sad that she has the worst version of all of her normals that she shares with other members of the cast

 

[Turvon]

Big Band

I only have two changes for this character, and I'm fine with either change happening if both aren't possible together. First, increase the landing recovery of Tympany Drive on block in order to make punishing this move less of a dice roll. Second, decrease the parry window. Having a 17 frame parry window on normals is absolute bonkers on a character with so many defensive options.

His only other options are dp which he has to choose between the different strengths depending on the situation instead of like other characters with dp you just do the one strength dp everytime as a reversal because its just the one to always do like say annie H dp, Fortune H, Para H etc, and reversal supers which most characters have access to as well. ssj is just fast which isnt that crazy anyway because other invuln supers have hitstop which will catch you pressing too. On top of his reversals being not really being that much better than other characters that have similar options he is the biggest thing in the game and the easiest to actually hit. Since tympany is a move you can pilot it will always be possible to create a dice roll scenario due to the nature of how spacing works in these games unless you completely nerf it to the ground and make it minus a billion no matter what. With how crazy offense is in this game and how big big band is i dont think a 17 frame parry window is that problematic, if this was say street fighter then yeah that would be insane

 

[Turvon]

Peacock

for Georges to go away when she gets hit, please.

nah she lowkey needs that

 

[Lex]

[... Band downplay...]

Dude his ground reversals are pretty easily best in class, not just a little better lmao. But that's rather besides the point given people aren't even suggesting nerfing those tools lol.

Tympany is the best air reversal in the game on a character whose size already makes him hard to reset in the air. It has hitstop, full invuln, gives conversions and is for some reason difficult to punish on block due to being spaced and being able to throw off PBGC timings with its manoeuvrability. I think asking for a reversal like that to be consistently punishable on block is pretty reasonable lol (also doesn't need to be "minus a billion", -18 to 20 instead of -12 should give everyone consistent punishes). All other air level 1s have some kind of big downside except Tympany.

And a 17f parry window is pretty obviously overtuned. Parrying is incredibly low risk, with very good reward. The counterbalance to that is supposed to be high difficulty, which a massive window throws off.
Also, the larger the window on a parry, the harder it is to specifically call out as you need to leave bigger gaps on offence. This is especially impactful in defensive situations where parrying gives very strong defensive OS's.

Keeping the larger window on projectiles and assists would be fine given Band's struggles Vs zoners. But he doesn't need a 17f parry window Vs physical point attacks.

 

[CaioLugon]

The parry window being shorter is fine, but you shouldn't take any damage on a successful parry.

 

[Turvon]

Dude his ground reversals are pretty easily best in class, not just a little better lmao. But that's rather besides the point given people aren't even suggesting nerfing those tools lol.

Tympany is the best air reversal in the game on a character whose size already makes him hard to reset in the air. It has hitstop, full invuln, gives conversions and is for some reason difficult to punish on block due to being spaced and being able to throw off PBGC timings with its manoeuvrability. I think asking for a reversal like that to be consistently punishable on block is pretty reasonable lol (also doesn't need to be "minus a billion", -18 to 20 instead of -12 should give everyone consistent punishes). All other air level 1s have some kind of big downside except Tympany.

And a 17f parry window is pretty obviously overtuned. Parrying is incredibly low risk, with very good reward. The counterbalance to that is supposed to be high difficulty, which a massive window throws off.
Also, the larger the window on a parry, the harder it is to specifically call out as you need to leave bigger gaps on offence. This is especially impactful in defensive situations where parrying gives very strong defensive OS's.

Keeping the larger window on projectiles and assists would be fine given Band's struggles Vs zoners. But he doesn't need a 17f parry window Vs physical point attacks

Skill issue

 

[DomiWizza]

Dude his ground reversals are pretty easily best in class, not just a little better lmao. But that's rather besides the point given people aren't even suggesting nerfing those tools lol.

Tympany is the best air reversal in the game on a character whose size already makes him hard to reset in the air. It has hitstop, full invuln, gives conversions and is for some reason difficult to punish on block due to being spaced and being able to throw off PBGC timings with its manoeuvrability. I think asking for a reversal like that to be consistently punishable on block is pretty reasonable lol (also doesn't need to be "minus a billion", -18 to 20 instead of -12 should give everyone consistent punishes). All other air level 1s have some kind of big downside except Tympany.

And a 17f parry window is pretty obviously overtuned. Parrying is incredibly low risk, with very good reward. The counterbalance to that is supposed to be high difficulty, which a massive window throws off.
Also, the larger the window on a parry, the harder it is to specifically call out as you need to leave bigger gaps on offence. This is especially impactful in defensive situations where parrying gives very strong defensive OS's.

Keeping the larger window on projectiles and assists would be fine given Band's struggles Vs zoners. But he doesn't need a 17f parry window Vs physical point attacks.

Bro he's so wumbo that him taking IOH´s means he has to guess way more than other characters, some characters can legit just make band guess for no risk at the mid-range, and can still threaten with projectiles, parry has to be like that otherwise those matchups would just be almost unwinnable, his reversals are all punishable pretty easily ( except tympany, which yeah maybe it should be a lil easier to punish, but it's not like its super duper hard or anything ). If you're having trouble against big band defense then literally just don't be as predictable on offense, if you're getting parried everytime that means YOU need to change things up.

 

[Cart]

Skill issue

nah, nerf tympani, let it rock, its an absurd super on insane defense the character. even just 5 more minus frames would be just fine, not like ssj levels of minus, but getting a consistent LCH is too much to ask for on a super that already makes you guess on your own pb timing? yeah its very overtuned. i think band is fine in literally every other regard, tbh, just tympani is something i never understood the absurdity on. and saying "skill issue" to genuine suggestions is why a lot of discussion for this game doesnt get far, cmon

 

[Nuuance]

i mean doing lk+hk SBO directly overhead doesnt even get him if he goes to top of the screen & can block in time. it's just kinda weird to not even be able to get up there if they default to just flying that high. happened a couple times at least on my side unless i was just that unlucky

 

[cloudKing211]

Curious

 

[Stuff]

So are you saying that all assists should have more startup? Because on average almost every assist in umvc3 seems to have more start up in general.

Also does the umvc3 wiki count the character standing there before the move or is it strictly the second the move starts like in sg? 'cause you can add about 27f to H beam if umvc3 just counts them jumping into the screen in addition to the normal start up of the assist attack. (My number of the characters jumping in on SG came from this.)

Also parry OS is something that still doesn't get used much and while it's not taken advantage of now there's still possibility of parry's being stronger as the game goes on but as there isn't a big problem with it yet I can't say whether it should be nerfed or not. But timpani frame trapping is silly.

 

[iDante_SG]

I know this is, like, off topic to everything being discussed here, but I'm genuinely really curious as to why Beo's chair dance isn't invul like the rest of his other grab finishers. And I'm wondering if we could make it so, please and thank. Or if not, I'd like to know why at least cuz I can't tell if this is an oversight or on purpose.

 

[Triviality]

I know this is, like, off topic to everything being discussed here, but I'm genuinely really curious as to why Beo's chair dance isn't invul like the rest of his other grab finishers. And I'm wondering if we could make it so, please and thank. Or if not, I'd like to know why at least cuz I can't tell if this is an oversight or on purpose.

Ok but if my item drop assist hits you during chair dance thats just a skill issue come on now

 

[iDante_SG]

Ok but if my item drop assist hits you during chair dance thats just a skill issue come on now

I didn't mean it to sound like I had this happened to me personally, and the situation OF it happening are very very slim to get hit out of it, but it's more so out of my idle curiosity of its feature or lack there of. Can't really say which one as of yet, so that's why I'm asking around here.

 

[Triviality]

I didn't mean it to sound like I had this happened to me personally, and the situation OF it happening are very very slim to get hit out of it, but it's more so out of my idle curiosity of its feature or lack there of. Can't really say which one as of yet, so that's why I'm asking around here.

I'm sorry if it came off like a jab I merely jest. I just found it funny dance finisher is not invuln and couldnt think of moments relevant situations where thats exploited

Hope it gets invuln tbh but also get hard countered

 

[Stuff]

So are you saying that all assists should have more startup? Because on average almost every assist in umvc3 seems to have more start up in general.

Also does the umvc3 wiki count the character standing there before the move or is it strictly the second the move starts like in sg? 'cause you can add about 27f to H beam if umvc3 just counts them jumping into the screen in addition to the normal start up of the assist attack. (My number of the characters jumping in on SG came from this.)

Also parry OS is something that still doesn't get used much and while it's not taken advantage of now there's still possibility of parry's being stronger as the game goes on but as there isn't a big problem with it yet I can't say whether it should be nerfed or not. But timpani frame trapping is silly.

I ended up doing some very cursory tests by recording umvc3 and it does seem like the wiki values on the assists are from the assist call itself not when they touch the ground. If I start from when the character touches the ground it's easy to see that it's roughly the same start up as Robo H beam but since idk what the argument even is I'll leave it at that.

From when Iron Man touches the ground: roughly 20-27f because of stuff like frameskip and the input delay of the game itself, pretty comparable either way.

You can even see yourself if you want (pause the video [make sure it's 60fps which is only on 720p or 1080p] and use the < > keys to go 1f back or 1 frame forward respectfully) though I reckon I've already humored this way more than I had too but even then I'd rather challenge it than leave it alone.

for reference this is iron man's 1st idle frame to which he immediately starts up unibeam if you want to start from there, it's pretty comparable start up to Robo H beam

But if you start from the assist call button itself, you're looking at the wiki value up to 52f again likely because of frameskip but still pretty comparable.

I had nothing better to do but sometimes even if it's a joke it doesn't hurt to refute something, just in case.

 

[nope.avi]

I ended up doing some very cursory tests by recording umvc3 and it does seem like the wiki values on the assists are from the assist call itself not when they touch the ground. If I start from when the character touches the ground it's easy to see that it's roughly the same start up as Robo H beam but since idk what the argument even is I'll leave it at that.

From when Iron Man touches the ground: roughly 20-27f because of stuff like frameskip and the input delay of the game itself, pretty comparable either way.

You can even see yourself if you want (pause the video [make sure it's 60fps which is only on 720p or 1080p] and use the < > keys to go 1f back or 1 frame forward respectfully) though I reckon I've already humored this way more than I had too but even then I'd rather challenge it than leave it alone.

for reference this is iron man's 1st idle frame to which he immediately starts up unibeam if you want to start from there, it's pretty comparable start up to Robo H beam

View attachment 16538
But if you start from the assist call button itself, you're looking at the wiki value up to 52f again likely because of frameskip but still pretty comparable.

I had nothing better to do but sometimes even if it's a joke it doesn't hurt to refute something, just in case.

he was probably comparing the active frames,

 

[Stuff]

If that's the case, the argument leaves a lot to be desired because it's a difference of two completely different games and Iron Man himself isn't used to the amounts Robo is because better characters and better assists are in that game and I wouldn't even know where to begin with how big the stages are comparitively game by game and how fast any character can travel to them to make even close enough of a fair comparison. It could very well be that less active frames are perfectly fine in that game with how fast characters can move in umvc3 (that and unibeam is more hits than robo H beam) and I could go a long way to figure this out.

But considering it's just a post with two images and "curious" I wasn't really expecting there to be a conversation anyway.

 

[Triviality]

I am down to nerf Robo H-Beam if I can plinkdash with squigly from fullscreen into full combo TAC Reset infinite and then throw out orb of destruction for 1 bar

take it or leave it

 

[MachiTheFool]

I kind of want Dahlia to have easier access to Special Rounds in neutral outside of Last Call.
I think letting Another Round (MP) front-load with 2 Special Rounds followed by 4 Red Rounds would allow for a more varied Dahlia neutral, and allow for some more exciting moments by letting her top-deck specific ammo types without having to slog through two Red Rounds minimum.

 

[Façade]

give filia fukuas 2mp and doubles 2hp too while we are at it, its pretty sad that she has the worst version of all of her normals that she shares with other members of the cast

In the context of her kit compared to the others, Filia doesn't need Fukua c.MP or Double c.HP. She already has s.HP for an anti-air and j.LP for air-to-air conversions. And unlike Fukua s.HP, she doesn't have to gamble on minus frames if it's blocked. It'd be nice if c.MP had its startup frames reduced, but what she really needs is a little more damage and consistent confirms off of s.MP and c.MK at max range.

nah she lowkey needs that

That aspect of her kit feels like top tier privilege to me, but if forced damage scaling is as far as we'll go then so be it I guess.

Bro he's so wumbo that him taking IOH´s means he has to guess way more than other characters, some characters can legit just make band guess for no risk at the mid-range, and can still threaten with projectiles, parry has to be like that otherwise those matchups would just be almost unwinnable, his reversals are all punishable pretty easily ( except tympany, which yeah maybe it should be a lil easier to punish, but it's not like its super duper hard or anything ). If you're having trouble against big band defense then literally just don't be as predictable on offense, if you're getting parried everytime that means YOU need to change things up.

Band's size and having truly dreadful matchups are meant to be balanced by having high damage and the best reversals in the game as well as providing your team with excellent assists, not by having a massive parry window.

Also parry OS is something that still doesn't get used much and while it's not taken advantage of now there's still possibility of parry's being stronger as the game goes on but as there isn't a big problem with it yet I can't say whether it should be nerfed or not. But timpani frame trapping is silly.

I'd like to point out that something not being used much right now meaning it shouldn't be nerfed is how we got to Ms. Fortune dominance.

 

[Stuff]

FWIW one of my first posts are saying that the parry window is too large and should be nerfed, part of why idk whether I should go either way right now is simply because idk what the game wants to be at this point.

But yeah I definitely think it's fair to point out things that aren't used as much yet but should still maybe get taken a look, it's always a fair suggestion to make imo 'cause you just never know and these past 2 years have changed a lot about what I think and it's come from a lot of recent discovery and new faces. Something like the parry OS on paper mitigates Big Band's ioh weakness because you can parry low and block high or vice versa (I think this makes your parry exactly 1f though) or you can parry low and press throw which covers 2 options at the cost of not much really [which nets a larger punish if you get the parry] (this would net you the whole 17f and is a lot better when blocking in the air or on incoming) which is a godsend for a character like this coupled with a nifty DP and a super that can punish anything minus enough can be pretty scary and it's even more scary when band gets the parry and not the block which lets him basically use anything to punish so if a player that came around and took advantage of that frequently, I could see it getting nerfed down the line simply because it's a large window you don't commit to with massive reward (theoretically). Like it never hurts to TRY a parry because you lose nothing for doing it in the first place and the reward is a punish, it's too good to pass up. And it's crazier in the air like it never hurts to input parry then whatever button you're jumping into and if you get the parry then you're in a good spot for doing something you weren't committing to getting anyway and also a very good OS for wake up options against your opponent. It's not strictly just a defensive tool, it's a pretty good offensive one as well. I just don't know yet how problematic that would be just that it's worth observing.

A lot of theoretical stuff coming to light has shaken up quite a lot lately.

Sorry, I had to make a lot of edits, my thoughts don't come in at once and I don't retain all of them very well so unfortunately this is how I have to do things.

 

[Turvon]

In the context of her kit compared to the others, Filia doesn't need Fukua c.MP or Double c.HP. She already has s.HP for an anti-air and j.LP for air-to-air conversions. And unlike Fukua s.HP, she doesn't have to gamble on minus frames if it's blocked.

Fukua shp has the same startup speed and hitbox as FIlias shp and she can make herself -3 with l drill or plus with special plus assist so the safety of throwing it out really isnt that much of an issue, so she has a significantly better cmp and a shp that is barely any worse than filias. Fukua also has the better jlp with more disjoint between the two and an easier conversion between the two whenever it air to airs

 

[JuuseBox]

I was thinking about the initial balance adjustments before / during Annie release. Unlike everyone else it seems, I'm not too mad at the Bella j.hp nerfs or the Double L Luger nerfs. They aren't nice, and this isn't to say I'm happy with them, but at the time I thought they were reasonable. If i recall correctly, the idea was Bella having ioh j.hp was pushing j.2mp too far out of favor and Double having easy conversions off luger blurred the lines between the L and H versions.

That being said, why hasn't there been any change to incentivize those moves then? Like it's easy to assume that if moves were so easily shadowed by better tools, nerfing those tools would just leave them with a worse kit overall right? In Double's case, wouldn't it make sense to limit her confirms but then also decrease the recovery of luger? It has 37 Frames of recovery! For Bella, wouldn't having it be a stage 1 starter make up for the fact that they lose otg for every over head confirm?

Also, do those nerfs even make sense in the face of Annie's release?

I know talking about the Bella J.hp and Double Luger nerfs are beating a dead horse at this point. I'm not necessarily asking for a reversion as again I do think the reasoning was sound. But I keep imagining a world where Double's reward was lessened on luger, but also her risk was lower. So now she's building more meter, contesting characters neutral / jumps better, and walking people to the corner more consistently where she can abuse her long range normals.

Imo if she's going to get her support role nerfed so much, between the meta shifting to a more damage 2 touch oriented style than safe dhcs (also nerfing hers) and nerfing her assists previously, why then is her risk / reward on point being nerfed as well? Especially in the face of Annie who really is what Double was.

Unfortunately I don't play enough Bella to speak about her with specifics, but the same comparisons for Double : Annie can be drawn for Bella : Umbrella.

 

[Turvon]

I know talking about the Bella J.hp and Double Luger nerfs are beating a dead horse at this point. I'm not necessarily asking for a reversion as again I do think the reasoning was sound. But I keep imagining a world where Double's reward was lessened on luger, but also her risk was lower. So now she's building more meter, contesting characters neutral / jumps better, and walking people to the corner more consistently where she can abuse her long range normals.

if by this you mean reducing the recovery and perhaps make it neutral on block or maybe even +1 that could be kinda sick ngl. I dont think this is too strong considering some of the crazy stuff that has been added post annie like say Annies fireballs being neutral/+4/+12 on block point blank or Umbrellas slide being a mid that goes just about fullscreen in ravenous (which is very easy to consistently stay in rav for the majority of a match) and is plus on block and leads to high/low/throws

 

[JuuseBox]

if by this you mean reducing the recovery and perhaps make it neutral on block or maybe even +1 that could be kinda sick ngl. I dont think this is too strong considering some of the crazy stuff that has been added post annie like say Annies fireballs being neutral/+4/+12 on block point blank or Umbrellas slide being a mid that goes just about fullscreen in ravenous (which is very easy to consistently stay in rav for the majority of a match) and is plus on block and leads to high/low/throws

Exactly this. The move gets to be used in more situations + you can build strategies around more meter build in neutral via safer Lugers

 

[Lex]

That being said, why hasn't there been any change to incentivize those moves then?

Bella did receive a compensatory buff to jHP btw, the scaling was removed making it a good bit more damaging as a starter to make up for it no longer hitting overhead.

 

[softie]

Painwheel could use a lot of love, but instead of just talking about buffs or QoL changes, I’d like to propose some changes that are more in line with how characters were spiced up in the last few patch cycles. Eliza skeleton and blood mechanics got reworked and cleaned up, and beo received two very good new tools to spend his hype, as well as getting easier access to the hype charges themselves. Painwheel has an entire mechanic with her stored armor damage that could be reimagined in interesting ways, providing a resource tied toolkit expansion to her currently limited/streamlined gameplan and options.

Spoilering to keep visual clutter down since I wrote a lot

Spoiler: current hatred guard discussion

The Tl;dr of how her hatred guard damage storage works currently, is when painwheel armors through something, she stores that damage, up to 33% of opponents total team hp, and then returns a portion of that damage back with any move that *can* have armor. (33% on lights, 50% on medium, 66% on heavies, with the damage scaled to the combo scaling (very important b/c most pw starters from neutral do not have good scaling), and 120% on the last hit of lvl 3, not scaled to the combo)

The idea behind the concept is for painwheel to get a bit more damage on reward for armoring something, and potentially get a very large payoff at the cost of a decent chunk of HP by armoring through assist calls repeatedly and then retreating.

Don’t want to numbers dump, though i did so spreadsheet work, and tl;dr if you armor through something and then CH them you get like 500-800 more damage, and if you armor through a full ground string they take a decent chunk more. Doing [5mp] through a beo jhp pays out with 1594 dmg on that hit (+ about 550 from the stored damage) while doing charged sweep vs a high damage ground string, annie 2lk 2mp 2hp will do an extra 2k damage from the stored damage if it counterhits. That is an impressive chunk, though keep in mind theres a lot of counterplay for the person getting armored (hit confirm to sweeps, multi hits, call assist, launcher suki cancel)


And that is the complete sum of the mechanic, its extra damage in situations she is already getting a counter hit starter, or if you armor through assists a decent amount, a slight compensation for how her most common starters (jmp and air throw) scale the combo to about half.

The problem with the mechanic (besides its strengths being justification for why she has the worst armor of all the armored moves in the game) is that it is a basically invisible mechanic that does not affect your decision making in meaningful ways in almost all situations: It is more reward for when she is already right, and NOT a mechanic that is worthwhile building a strategy around, or even committing any mental attention to.
I can armor H brass assists, and take 1750 damage each time, and then the next time i get a hit I cash out at best 1155 from each move i armored (2lk 2mk 2hp hitconfirm) and most likely closer to 500-600 off throw/jmp confirms (high hitting jmp routing being jmp fc jmk fc jmk 2mp 2hp is 50% scaling by the time the heavy will hit). That is a very very bad payoff for taking almost 2k dmg and committing air time and a flight charge to armor an assist that the opponent is probably moving directly behind.

Ultimately, it is a mechanic that has almost zero impact on decision making outside going way net minus on HP vs high dmg assists, and armoring lenny via dhc (very funny though). I’ve gone months of playing painwheel completely forgetting it is a mechanic, and i’ve had other pw players (ratbaby, PME) tell me the exact same thing. It just has reason to be in the mental stack of the character, and it could be made much cooler.

Spoiler: hatred guard payoff talk

In order to make the mechanic more visible in players decision making, as well as give painwheel some love and new tools, I would like to propose a rework to how she cashes out the stored damage. Instead of just raw damage being stacked onto as a one time thing, I would like her to get that damage via cashing out %’s of the stored hp to do different routes, or get access to things like install buer effects outside of install.


None of these numbers are anything set is stone, but potentially:

Everytime painwheel armored through 750 worth of damage, she gets a Hatred Guage stock she can cash out (more UI work would be cringe for the team but yeah.) You can put a healthy cap on the amount of charged she can get if needed. Painwheel would then be able to spend a stock of the hatred guage to do unique things, such as:

hitting a punch button during a buer would spend a stock to make that buer do its install effect (ie, L buer doing stagger, etc etc).
Press two kicks during nails to skip the charge up/store the nails for next time using it
Spend 1-2 stocks to 8 way airdash while shes flying with direction+KK (needs more elegant input to prevent awkward overlap)
Spend a stock to gain another flight when shes ran out in an air time
If a stock is available, calling pinion would give it a hit of armor

I think that giving her cool new ways to cash out and make very boring mechanic more interesting is a net plus to the game and character. widening her took kit is very appreciated for a character who looks imposing but 90% of the time boils down to fly upback call assist wait. and it can give her buffs in a way that doesn't buff 7fly assist, bc 80% of the scene does not have fun when that's happening, pw players included.

that's my rare skullheart thread for the month, it's not even complainwheeling I swear

y'all can go back to Bella jhp talk now just let me store nails

 

[Stuff]

Could she get stocks to build extra meter? Something like that could come in handy, transferring the damage taken to upgrade her pitiful meter gain since I don't think a regular meter buff will happen.

This way storing damage might actually be useful since you could build up meter to make point install more useful by increasing or deleting the meter nerf that comes with it from your stored damage and you can actually end in deathcrawl. Something like that could help her point utility, I really like the instant nails in exchange for stored damage too.

A flight boost mechanic could be neat or maybe a temporarily buffed normal for the cost of what you stored.

Because I agree, hatred guard is just crappy armor with a poorly realized damage return mechanic and should be changed to make it more useful.

tfw not a pw player

 

[Darkon91]

I really like the idea of hatred stocks to augment painwheels kit for absorbing damage. I would love for it to open up her assist options as well.

Im not even close to being a pw master but I think it would be great if pw had a few more assist options that were "viable" or interesting outside of pinion. Having an armored normal or charged nails or access to hatred install buers through hatred charges would be fun to play around with. I really like the idea of using an armored normal as an assist to build hatred charges for later.