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The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

Triviality

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M George > L George on hit isn't the problem (which you can still get), it's that sequence on block that's a little much. Rushing in with cHK on block into M George > L George to let her stay on you like glue? At least this lets a few more situations happen where the defendant can pushblock the cHK/L Bomb and PBGC jump over M George more consistently... against the character that shouldn't be good at rushing and staying in in the first place.
CHK -> MBomb -> Lbomb

Mbomb -> Lbomb still hits the same way

You have 5 more frames from the C-HK -> Bomb Rekka until the L-george hits into mbomb

This means from C.HK you have 21 frames to jump and deal with a single mbomb

Or -2 frames which you are gonna hold if the first l george hits

I dont think 16->21 frames makes a difference in how you counter this attack, the counterplay to it is still the same, and counterplay in this specific setup wont matter in remedied situations where your using an assist to lockdown, or covering the minus portion with an item. You can also pushblock both bombs while simultaneously true gaurding incase the pea is in range to do IAD j.lk,

Other peacocks i've talked to are enjoying the change otherwise because the delay to M-Bomb is actually making the bomb hit more times in practice and forcing favorable trades than otherwise, meaning its a buff to her zoning in situations

And idk, with all this it just feels difficult to use now because I have 5 frames less to work with in conversions that still exist.

TL:DR: 5 frame difference in M-Bomb is super annoying, some consider it a buff, and everything it could do before is just harder, not unintended or taken away

There were a lot of changes in this wave of patch notes that I think people we're asking for for a while

H-Teleport Changes
Pillar Changes
"lmao my dp is also a mobility tool"

but then theres these other changes that seem way out of left field and we now just have to hold it until late january
 

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I think saying double players are doomer is a big of an exaggeration, I agree she is still a very strong character with strengths and weaknesses compared to other glue characters, for context in pre-annie 2e I would 100% put her top 5. I think she will be fine and is still in the top half of the cast, but I think you can acknowledge that a character will be perfectly fine after a small nerf like this while also acknowledging that some parts of it were probably unnecessary. This is something I talked to cloud about and sage just mentioned it in his tweet about normalizing characters where he specifically chose double, where things are taken away that just kind of make them less interesting. I thought double was great but also in a perfectly fine spot, I was heading in to patch season hoping for 0 changes to be honest.

L Shot - I still stand by that I don't fully agree with this being changed at all, I don't think it was ever problematic it was just another strong nice tool she had, and don't think it needed to get it it was a strange nerf.

Catheads - I still understand why people were frustrated by catheads, safe dhc into pressure is NEVER fun(although I encourage many people to lab punishes tons of teams can alpha counter punish and never do similar to bella lvl3.) That is why I only really want time back on hit, because it is something fun that I miss. Calling catheads after sniper and watching them beat the shit out of someone in the corner was fun, and timing throws to restand on awkward supers was also fun. Even occasionally doing bomber loops even if they're not really the spice anymore. I'm fine on block, they could be pretty stupid, but I really don't think there was a huge reason to take this away from her on hit considering it wasn't even the craziest damage super.

All this being said I do want to be clear about how I feel about this, it is not the end of the world to me. These are paragraphs and it can be easy to see a wall of text and think I am super doomer/upset about this, but I really am not that down about it. I think that these things would be really nice to have these back, but she will be perfectly fine either way. I love her, I will keep playing her, and she is OBVIOUSLY still worth picking, but in the interest of keeping the game fun and unique, I think L gun back and letting catheads rock on hit would be coolio.

TLDR : There's no reason to take something that isn't problematic just because a characters strong, I can see catheads on block as problematic but I feel like L gun and catheads damage were fine and really enjoyed her power level in 2e pre-annie. That area just below fortune and peacock felt like the sweet spot!
 
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KoreanYardSale

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also agree with tyrone on grab bag. no clue why it does this i hate dealing with it i dont feel good when i take advantage of it. fillia (fenrir i thinj its called?) lvl1 looks like it is also gonna tumble and go into otg state then lands like normal so grab bag could just do that too.
 

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Regarding L luger, I can't help but feel like maybe I influenced that lol

What I wanted was that double shots in general should be harder to convert from (or a bit smaller but not old Luger size) because even if you were using the projectile to fill space, if it hit you got so much time it was basically mix up time. In that regard, I think she gets too much reward because of how big it is and the fact that like mini launches. H/M luger feel like a real risk since if you miss you DO open up the possibility (which is why I think it's fine they weren't touched) of getting hit but with L luger it's generally low risk if you do it from as far as you used to be able to convert from. Now, I'm not sure how big the current change makes Double but I can't help but feel she's mostly unaffected by this change she can still convert at some ranges, just not as far though maybe that can be tweaked idk. Though the way L Luger is now balances that risk/reward imo

As for cat heads I don't exactly like that it's also much shorter on hit I think on block it's a great call. However, if we're going by "rules" currently install supers get shorter timers regardless of the state the character is in so if we're rationalizing things, that would be why it's like that but at least for me I think if you hit your opponent, you earned it applying that to all install type supers. Penalizing hitting kinda sucks in general.

Also I want to clarify that I just want to know more into why some nerfs happen because I'm really bad at understanding the correlation sometimes. I'm not upset either.
 

Triviality

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Also I want to clarify that I just want to know more into why some nerfs happen because I'm really bad at understanding the correlation sometimes. I'm not upset either.
this tbh
 

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I definitely think double players, in general, were overreacting in places like Twitter and different discords. If their main issue was "normalizing" and it being an issue of her being less fun and not her being bad I apologize for the misunderstanding but I don't think they stated that clearly. To me and many other people, it came off as people complaining that a top 5 character going to top 6 was the end of the world and the worst thing that could happen. It's kinda like the fukua talk from the last cycle where it basically just ended up being fukua players wanting life drain to be a bit better (fair!) but came out the gate swinging with "she's bottom 2 and garabge" (not fair!)

Personally, I (and a lot of people I talked to) would be fine with reverting the L gun change (but it's not like she needs it) but catheads is a no-go. DHC-ing into catheads just before 240 undizzy gave you a ton of damage as a 1 bar dhc while also doubling as a safe DHC and a turn stealer tool. Giving its length back on hit would just enable that stuff again and I think that is a little much. I like the idea that you go for catheads for the pressure/safe DHC and go for monster when you want the damage. It gives her options and gives value to her other tools. If double players truly want that back something else has to get shot to compensate and idk what. Give her "fun" back but give her a more exploitable weakness or something.

This leads me to something else I wanna talk about which is what power level people want this game to be at. I get that playing double/Annie/any top tier is super fun but they were clearly a level above the rest of the cast. If people want it so that everyone else is brought to their level that's fine with me. I personally like the game when everyone is around like para/filia levels but I can totally see higher power being fun! However, my main problem with that is that the community seems to get really annoyed when characters below them ask for buffs to be brought up to those levels.

Complainwheel memes are a thing for example. But that's not just a complainwheel thing, when robo got her slightly bigger beams it got reverted, a lot of Eliza's initial rework stuff got nerfed, when beo players asked for more stuff everyone kept saying he was fine. and it's not just like "two different groups are saying this stuff" when I've seen almost every single person who complained about annie/fortune/double/fukua getting nerfed also complain about a mid/low tier getting a buff that wouldn't break them. If people want the crazy high power then by all means go for it but you gotta be consistent.

TLDR: If double players think it's a fun issue and not a "she sucks" issue they need to communicate that better and maybe offer alternatives that aren't "make her top tier again". Also you can't want high power level and get annoyed when weaker characters want to be higher power too.
 

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I might have missed it because I try to avoid complete randoms talking but I haven't really seen any double players that were REALLY sad about it, the general consensus in people I talked to was the idea of just like, not sure why in particular this got hit this is sad but she'll keep going, to clarify specifically L gun is confusing and just seemed extra. The catheads obviously has a discussion to be had.

To your other points, I guess I just disagree that the damage on dhc right before 240 or anything, to a degree you had to route/build your team to actually be able to take advantage of it, and it never really felt out of hand. Pillar has been nerfed but is still an amazing damage super, and even something as simple as going into dynamo, otg plus assist, the damage REALLY adds up. I just didn't feel that the damage being so strong although with the supers other strengths was too much, especially now that it still steals a turn but doesn't have enough time to really provide much mix. I completely understand the sentiment of agree to disagree on that though, it sounds like it might slightly come down to I am fine with catheads being able to do that when your team is able to use it, while you think its a bit much.

On power level though I have always been fine bringing characters up, although I have a very high opinion of every single character as it stands so while I don't mind bringing them up I also probably wouldn't suggest anything crazy. I do think that saying annie/double is a little misleading as annie was CLEARLY a jump above double in everything she did and provided, but aside from that I honestly believe double is right around filia and para in terms of viability. They are good at different things and obviously double is more consistent and provides more wholly to a team, but I don't really think there is that big of a gap. I really think the cast is pretty close together and don't mind some characters being more all arounders and some being chars you build around. So yea to help get a better idea of where this double I would like would be, I also want other characters to be brought up while this happens with little helps here or there.

TLDR - I was not part of a group who thought double was dying and they went overboard, and did not know that was a consensus. Among people I talked to the L gun seemed weird, and I personally thought about the catheads thing since I miss it and other people agree although this is obviously much more contentious. I am perfectly fine with the power level being brought up but generally believe characters in this game are very strong, so I have never argued directly against their buffs to give you an idea of my position on char power.
 

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Yeah I think we just agree to disagree on what we want the current power level to be. As for the other stuff I should have clarified I didn’t mean you specially and I’m sorry I didn’t make that clear. I was kinda just speaking in general I wasn’t trying to like target one specific person. Glad this was a nice and peaceful talk!
 
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Yeah I think we just agree to disagree on what we want the current power level to be. As for the other stuff I should have clarified I didn’t mean you specially and I’m sorry I didn’t make that clear. I was kinda just speaking in general I wasn’t trying to like target one specific person. Glad this was a nice and peaceful talk!
Yup always nice talking about games we like! It's no issue I understand that a vocal minority or whatever it happens to be can make discussions hard, we'll see what others think and at the end of the day what really matters is what Liam/the rest of the balance team thinks!
 
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In Re: @PME Unseeable 50/50s into two touch death is not an Annie exclusive thing at all, and I don’t want to see reset routes be nerfed because of them. The name of the game is don’t get hit. That’d be like removing cr.mk runstop cancels from bella and forcing her to only command grab. And yes those mixups 95% of the cast just has to take and if you guess wrong you die. Ms fortune also does this as well. And its only a two touch in 3v3, where damage is also 1.3 modifier which is something to keep in mind. We already confirmed every single character in this game can two touch off of a fucked up reset in 3v3 with an assist so.

For the other not so talked about Annie Changes; I also wanna see the hitstop on divekick and on north Knuckle reverted too. The OOMPH factor that those moves had completely disappeared with these changes so it just looks and feels really weird? The satisfaction to doing them was removed.
 
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I definitely think double players, in general, were overreacting in places like Twitter and different discords. If their main issue was "normalizing" and it being an issue of her being less fun and not her being bad I apologize for the misunderstanding but I don't think they stated that clearly. To me and many other people, it came off as people complaining that a top 5 character going to top 6 was the end of the world and the worst thing that could happen. It's kinda like the fukua talk from the last cycle where it basically just ended up being fukua players wanting life drain to be a bit better (fair!) but came out the gate swinging with "she's bottom 2 and garabge" (not fair!)

Personally, I (and a lot of people I talked to) would be fine with reverting the L gun change (but it's not like she needs it) but catheads is a no-go. DHC-ing into catheads just before 240 undizzy gave you a ton of damage as a 1 bar dhc while also doubling as a safe DHC and a turn stealer tool. Giving its length back on hit would just enable that stuff again and I think that is a little much. I like the idea that you go for catheads for the pressure/safe DHC and go for monster when you want the damage. It gives her options and gives value to her other tools. If double players truly want that back something else has to get shot to compensate and idk what. Give her "fun" back but give her a more exploitable weakness or something.

This leads me to something else I wanna talk about which is what power level people want this game to be at. I get that playing double/Annie/any top tier is super fun but they were clearly a level above the rest of the cast. If people want it so that everyone else is brought to their level that's fine with me. I personally like the game when everyone is around like para/filia levels but I can totally see higher power being fun! However, my main problem with that is that the community seems to get really annoyed when characters below them ask for buffs to be brought up to those levels.

Complainwheel memes are a thing for example. But that's not just a complainwheel thing, when robo got her slightly bigger beams it got reverted, a lot of Eliza's initial rework stuff got nerfed, when beo players asked for more stuff everyone kept saying he was fine. and it's not just like "two different groups are saying this stuff" when I've seen almost every single person who complained about annie/fortune/double/fukua getting nerfed also complain about a mid/low tier getting a buff that wouldn't break them. If people want the crazy high power then by all means go for it but you gotta be consistent.

TLDR: If double players think it's a fun issue and not a "she sucks" issue they need to communicate that better and maybe offer alternatives that aren't "make her top tier again". Also you can't want high power level and get annoyed when weaker characters want to be higher power too.
agreed. It's tough...

What sticks out isn't even the opinions themselves. Again, *not* the opinions, but unwillingness to allow other people with characters one might not care for to try new things & save judgment for after the trial period. nearly half the talking points have conflict of interest acknowledged or not. Surely not a fukua fan anymore than the next person, but refusing to allow trying a health change or update to clones as a resource seems kinda silly. Being passionate is fine...but other people play the game. Rarely will see me coming down on another character getting something...because tbh it's usually not that big a deal & adapting is less so. Is acknowledging something not explicitly agreed with that hard? If something isnt cared for in the end, everyone will be able to speak his or her peace. That hasn't changed. proposals will be put to rest and/or accepted more graciously on both sides if people experience how something does or doesnt work in reality over theory (sound as theory may be).

Something inspiring from Scourgebringers discord (fun indie hack n slash) was how when people sometimes saw stuff they didn't like...often they didn't immediately contrast, but offered ways to improve a differing idea or make creative concessions rather than just go back & forth. they wanted to make it fun for everyone...Not just make the game how they envision it themselves. Collaboration. There's more than enough room & balance can be creative. I feel like that's been hugely forgotten. ABA in GG isnt fun because installs outright powerful. She's fun because the balance makes her dynamic & fun switching modes while dancing between risk vs reward. Basic tenet of fighting games. Goes back to Annie. Balancing install doesnt have to be so square; it can be more free while being less oppressive at the same time. but it feels like even talking about it is offensive when thats what was so exciting about her when she popped up. peoples eyes LIT UP when they tried her...like what happened.

i get catheads. but overall let the peacock, fortune & double mains have their cake, but share the rest with the cast. i completely see why gg+r & bb are so loved; they're not afraid to give good tools & let players sort it out after. And if they get nerfed usually get something else to make up for it
 
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softie

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I didn't know anyone was actually a double doomer unironically but I play double point so did not really feel the catheads nerfs much

it's understandable to drop her if you were using her as a dhc dmg engine mid, losing 1.2kish dmg on the dhc is significant and Annie/pw were right there providing similar utility

I do miss catheads combos though, they were fun and satisfying while puddle dhc is pretty boring.

if anything the 2017 hitbox nerf to bomber assist impacted her strength as a mid more than catheads dmg imo imo but she's still very strong, if not as fun in some areas



current beta patch absolutely obliterated my gameplans with my robo/Annie team, to the point where there's no appeal to me to play the shell, and I'm happy about it god damn. Never thought I'd be glad to get nerfs that feel directly targeted to me but I'm free from playing that team



I do want to say that while Annie was obviously stupid dhc dmg engine that everyone decided to pick up, at ceotaku so many times I saw players in top 24 do Annie lvl 3 as the dhc for damage even though it was way worse than lvl 2 into full combo end with beam super if needed. We had the optimal optimal stuff labbed out instantly, and even though some people were doing them, the character was strong and dominant without needing to make the most efficient decision. Reigning that in is fine imo, the idea of an unoptimized character still being an almost must-pick in a meta is scary on a well rounded type character.


don't have anything else to add other people haven't said yet, waiting for other characters to be discussed instead.

I believe in the vision for sure
 
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there's a couple of things where i agree w what's being targeted for nerfs, but think it could be executed in a different way (some people already mentioned things like how h beam hits more times the closer it is so its now more likely to get extra hits, or how for pea's bombs it adds more time inbetween "bomb summoned" and "bomb moved far enough away to not worry about trades" so theyre threatening for longer)

to spitball ideas for potential balance changes, if some in the current beta end up not sticking or changing
  • h beam:
    • hits less times as an assist (either removing the first hitbox or cutting off the active frames early to remove the last hit)
    • slower startup + recovery as assist so there's longer time to move out of the way or punish
  • peacock ideas:
    • for bombs on trade: reduced hitstun on top of the scaling if the bombs hit the opponent while peacock is hit, making it less likely she gets to combo in the first place and more likely it returns to neutral. (a lot of people wanted more item drop nerfs after the annie update just nerfed the damage, so i imagine that this would be a similar situation)
    • make h teleport slower than other versions (either just outright adding vulnerable frames to both startup and recovery, or have it get slower for each projectile + assist that's active)
also a band idea since he wasnt touched this update: brass knuckle hitbox being smaller on assist only, something like 1 or 2 knuckles less far. maybe thinner/less low reaching too for low profiles, for comparison its about 2/3rds of a training room grid box high, while beam is about 4/3rds. i would say to move it up to 1 full box high and end there, but thats enough for ms fortune forward dash, so uh. 90% of one if you dont like catgirls and a full one if catgirls rule. (if i had to choose one it'd be less horizontal range over vertical, though)

imo the nerfed startup is warranted on peacock's bombs. i only first played this game after the final 2017 update and for a while it felt to me like peacock's zoning was designed for a game with slightly better average mobility w characters more reliably being able to move in zoning gaps, so learning about the old version of her zoning feels like "oh this makes more sense". same with item drop and also annie's divekicks + knuckle hitstop both being warranted, divekick combos lasted just a bit too long before. at most i'd say go halfway between retail and current beta hitstop.
 

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Oh I wanted to add something that bugs me and it's about Ms Fortune's jumping hurtbox and it's mostly because it doesn't happen for every other character. Her double jump hurtboxes are a copy paste which makes it very bad for maneuverability this doesn't happen for any other character, some even shrink on initial double jump (the part before they go back to normal air hurtboxes I guess a double jump squat?)

Anyway, I realize that people want fortune to be bigger but I think her being able to be clipped on double jump isn't very fair, she's already bigger.

But basically if fortune wants to double jump really fast to try to avoid something, she becomes bigger I think that's very bad for what I always felt was an evasive character and since I know the hurtbox change won't get reverted I would at least like her double jump hurtbox to not have the much lowered hurtbox below the feet (I'm not talking about her first jump mind you)

I would like to see her double jump animation changed to just her regular now bigger air hurtbox (double jump start up only)


(Also in checking this, going frame by frame Bella's double jump hurtboxes are OD)

((Can I get M pinion as H hairball? I promise I'll be a good guy and even get straight A's at the school I don't go to))

Also I was wondering if in this thread you could ask for buffs for some characters? or maybe like qol stuff if it comes up
 
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Im sort of against any nerfs for Robo fortune H Beam as I felt the entire purpose for even considering adding Robo to your team was the assist in particular.

She’s always felt like this weak on point but god tier as a dhc/assist character and I don’t wanna see that removed from her since we’ve been working with that assist for nearly 5 years now. The current change to how the beam even functions as an assist in beta right now just looks like a bug.

It also doesn’t help that the beta only continued to take even more away from her without any compensation. With instant double jump mixups being gone and now assist being harder to protect, it just seems unnecessary to nerf her most critical role imo. I feel like this was one of the few knobs that should be left untouched with the character.
 
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+1 on reverting Annie's j.mp

as for Peacock changes, they seem fine. But for the record, the m bomb reversion may actually lead to more interruptions to enemy confirms than before, but it's safe to say that she's gone back to having mid range being unarguably the absolute most dangerous spot for her to be, which is fine and a rather familiar feeling. With teleport assist changes, I think she's finally equal across the board with all assists. Tho I've played some games where she still can't use h teleport even when the assist is taunting, which I thought was the new rule for whiffed assists.
 

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Sidenote Also agree with fortune dp on whiff thing being weird. The point of certain characters is to be better straight out in other areas. It’d be different if it were safe on block. Its strong but nowhere near cat heads status

I don’t get certain nerfs in the sense many seem to be focusing on stuff that’s been fine & feels arbitrary for the sake of doing something to knock characters down a peg simply for the sake of doing so. idk if it’s to try appease a certain segment but…seems like it moreso grieves mains than helps others.

Edit:…retroactively find myself getting a little frustrated because when I see these changes all I see is valuable time taken away from testing changes with other characters & mechanics. Over a month. PW for example. dig her but the actual hatred guard absorption mechanic has always *felt* invisible to me as well as visual healthbar/in-match indicators for How much is absorbed/expelled. If majority changes don’t get reverted, then how much more time to test new/revised changes to undo these? no one ever gets their wants 100% so I get it, subjectivity. but after so many changes not having to do with things people specifically have been asking about…and instead putting towards ‘experiments’ it really makes me wonder what the agenda is, and if has to do with what mains want, respectfully speaking. id love to try other characters & imagine others would find more enjoyment in that.

anyways waiting to focus on positive changes for other characters so i look forward to it. hopefully can genuinely discuss Annie soon vs a la carte changes
 
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What I don't get about the H beam assist nerf specifically is what it's even for, currently most assists still move forward with the camera as they are locked to it, robo is just in front of it directly though I don't think that makes it any more punishable than anything else is with your point character and is still susceptible to counter calls because she's the character that ties for second longest assist recovery animation 1 whole second and I thought it was balanced in this way but also I can't seem to find a way to punish both characters very easily regardless of the change. It seems like the intent was to be able to counter call it a lot easier but at that distance I'd argue only Brass counter calls got buffed and those are already insane as it is.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

And if your opponent uses this to lock you down in neutral well then I'm just not sure how often this change would even matter, frankly.

Maybe I'm missing a critical piece but I always find myself very confused and frustrated that I can't seem to understand this "vision" everyone is talking about. I really wish I could then I wouldn't be so mired and against most changes.

Like the nerfs are often not that game changing so it's easy to accept them as they do nothing big but I just don't like changing things if I can't figure out what exactly we're solving if at all. (and of course that can just be a personal problem but idk, I just like knowing things)

[ps can pw nails please do more chip damage, just once pretty please?]
 
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Valentine Robo Fortune Parasoul
This itty bitty baby nerf doesn't really affect my gameplan at all, so idc. I don't see any reason why a bigger nerf would be necessary though. H Beam is certainly one of the best assists but, like, having that good assist is her thing let her have it.
 
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kitkat247

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i know its kind of the idea of a zoner to make it very hard to get in. but ive always kind of been annoyed how fighting every character in skullgirls is kind of similar, then youve got bullet hell minigame against peacock. seems really easy to just absolutely flood the screen with projectiles. Maybe its a lot harder than it looks, just figured id give it a mention.
 
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thewingit1234

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Peacock
late to the patch talk party. ah just gonna go over thoughts on peacock changes from first glance because that's who i play.
H port nerf coming back: yeah figured this would be back. no real thoughts while i don't like it being back i understand why it's back it really didn't get enough time for people to get used to it

Slower Bombs: so whats the point here? is it to lower trade chances? because i feel like this might just increase them.

bomb trade scaling: this is a perfect middle ground change i love it

item drop recovery: this i feel will take a while but i do worry about new players seeing the chicken item hanging on screen for a while and think they can pick it up like a faust food item. but thats my main thought on that
 
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Triviality

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late to the patch talk party. ah just gonna go over thoughts on peacock changes from first glance because that's who i play.
H port nerf coming back: yeah figured this would be back. no real thoughts while i don't like it being back i understand why it's back it really didn't get enough time for people to get used to it

Slower Bombs: so whats the point here? is it to lower trade chances? because i feel like this might just increase them.

bomb trade scaling: this is a perfect middle ground change i love it

To my knowledge, the change regarding to H and M bomb was to revert a shadow buff with little to no explanation that was given to her in one of the August 2016 beta cycles. I

really only heard cloud talk about it, but yeah, it was basically argued that she could use it ala M mine to force trades. I feel like the hitstun scaling change does a better job at fixing this than reverting what was essentially a change only a few really knew about,

and im still dropping s.hp into mbomb lbomb conversions

item drop recovery: this i feel will take a while but i do worry about new players seeing the chicken item hanging on screen for a while and think they can pick it up like a faust food item. but thats my main thought on that

theres no way
 

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I read through the recent patch notes and have what I guess would be an aesthetic criticism. Specific rule changes.
These have always been necessary to target edge cases like pummel horse assist, or mid-screen dynamo dash-lockout, or wall bounce limit on kanchou. However, I want to raise it as a potential problem long-term if this balancing tool becomes the norm.

Examples in this recent balance pass:
-extra hit damage scaling on north knuckle assist
-dhc specific first hit scaling on pillar of creation
-dhc specific flash freeze duration on pillar of creation
-state specific hitstop for meteor strike
-state specific sagan beam recovery
-star power specific cHK buffer window
-assist call and state specific peacock teleport
-state specific george damage scaling

Ignoring for a moment the problems these changes address, and how effectively they address them, this style of balance lever has a cumulative cost. The more exceptions there are to the overall game rules (like how does damage scaling work in 'skullgirls') or (how are inputs read in 'skullgirls') etc. the less I think the game will make sense to people who approach the game from an exploratory mode. Especially in cases where the effect of the specific rule change isn't visually obvious in the game. I don't think this really affects players who learn techniques by rote, but adds a lot of esoteric knowledge for would-be theorycrafters to get through. There is some value in elegance to be preserved in addition to balance I think.
 

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I read through the recent patch notes and have what I guess would be an aesthetic criticism. Specific rule changes.
These have always been necessary to target edge cases like pummel horse assist, or mid-screen dynamo dash-lockout, or wall bounce limit on kanchou. However, I want to raise it as a potential problem long-term if this balancing tool becomes the norm.

Examples in this recent balance pass:
-extra hit damage scaling on north knuckle assist
-dhc specific first hit scaling on pillar of creation
-dhc specific flash freeze duration on pillar of creation
-state specific hitstop for meteor strike
-state specific sagan beam recovery
-star power specific cHK buffer window
-assist call and state specific peacock teleport
-state specific george damage scaling

Ignoring for a moment the problems these changes address, and how effectively they address them, this style of balance lever has a cumulative cost. The more exceptions there are to the overall game rules (like how does damage scaling work in 'skullgirls') or (how are inputs read in 'skullgirls') etc. the less I think the game will make sense to people who approach the game from an exploratory mode. Especially in cases where the effect of the specific rule change isn't visually obvious in the game. I don't think this really affects players who learn techniques by rote, but adds a lot of esoteric knowledge for would-be theorycrafters to get through. There is some value in elegance to be preserved in addition to balance I think.

EDIT: Yeah so like I really agree with this sentiment, so many "exceptions" to tons of rules when more general changes or rather just accepting that things will be strong exist in the game

I talked with people about the H-Teleport changes and how it really only affects Lock n Load (reply to me with more id be glad to be wrong), I make this suggestoion

why not do what was done to Lock n Load, the opposite what was done to H-beam

That is to make it no longer be forced to be onscreen, and movement assists making it go "Farther" than intended
 
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Swiftfox-Dash

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After playing around with the Peacock changes a bit I figure it is about time I gave some of my thoughts.

The scaling change on bombs hitting mid combo is perfectly fine, honestly a terrific change.


Level 2 item drop staying awhile longer after it comes out is fine too. Doesn't really mess up much in the way of combos, and those it would can be extended long enough to allow another item drop summon by using slightly different routes during the first string, or using s.hp instead of c.hp. Personally I would still like to try an alternative where Peacock's level 2/3 item drop have extra cooldown time on whiff as it would lead to more player choice on both sides. For example: rewarding a Cerebella who patiently waits out an M item drop before going in or forcing a Peacock to try and rush in to make the foe block their item drop as it charges, taking them out of their ideal range. Just a thought though, this current change is simple and effective.

The H bomb delay is barely noticeable and is fine. If anything I think it actually opens up some teleport mixups and makes them more consistent for some of her resets. The M one is a bit trickier since the delay helps in some matchups, also helps get more time to do H teleport stuff but also makes certain combos significantly harder for those Peacock players that like the M bomb, L bomb combo extension. It doesn't ruin M bomb after lenny explosion to get the combo either, though makes it harder. There's a lot of ups and downs about this, not sure what to make of it. I definitely don't like the change of muscle memory of linking bombs together after being the same for nearly 5 or so years.

Speaking of which, the H teleport change is odd to me. This seems like a lot of fluff just to specifically make it so Peacock's teleport has no synergy in the slightest with LnL, yet still gives her amazing escapes, crossup and mixup potential from anywhere with lockdown assists. Wasn't the general consensus for a time that Peacock's H teleport was just so good of a tool that she could escape bad scenarios and get combos/mixups from fullscreen? This only affects one option I feel. If we were to make Peacock's H teleport work worse with assists, why not just give her a few frames more recovery when an assist is blocked. Giving her less time to teleport in and get free high/low/throw mixups across the board. Also making her more vulnerable on her reappearance is another idea. Lots of people, like LD for instance, are pretty good at beating out assist/bomb + teleport on reaction. And others like Sonic or PME can bait it out well with jump back falling heavy. Making the window to hit her be a little bigger could help that counterplay further (or at the very least make her more throw vulnerable, as things like ground throw are great for avoiding assists and bombs and still hitting Peacock) And as Triv said, if you want to specifically target LnL with H teleport, making it so Bella doesn't get pulled with the screen not only removes fullscreen mixups but also helps telegraph the move since the range of the mixup will be greatly reduced. Could be worth trying.

Also can we please try making Road Rollar be tied to her taunt or cause the same height ground bounce as all other level 3s? I still hate that item with a passion. I literally audibly sigh every time I get that mid combo. Also make her Level 3 super not build any meter for the opponent or something niche so it can maybe see some use once in every 100 games outside of BMing or winning specific DHC skirmishes such as against SSJ or Bella level 3.
 
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softie

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I thought the m item cool down increase was to prevent no UD spend looping the left right with it via assist, at least more to hit that than zoning patterns specifically


honestly a much much tamer nerf to that setup than I saw people wanting (sevs idea of lvl 2 soid causing blue bounce if it starts a combo to make her have to commit a button to catch people was the most dramatic I remember)
 

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Peacock Ms. Fortune Big Band
Speaking of which, the H teleport change is odd to me. This seems like a lot of fluff just to specifically make it so Peacock's teleport has no synergy in the slightest with LnL, yet still gives her amazing escapes, crossup and mixup potential from anywhere with lockdown assists. Wasn't the general consensus for a time that Peacock's H teleport was just so good of a tool that she could escape bad scenarios and get combos/mixups from fullscreen? This only affects one option I feel. If we were to make Peacock's H teleport work worse with assists, why not just give her a few frames more recovery when an assist is blocked. Giving her less time to teleport in and get free high/low/throw mixups across the board. Also making her more vulnerable on her reappearance is another idea. Lots of people, like LD for instance, are pretty good at beating out assist/bomb + teleport on reaction. And others like Sonic or PME can bait it out well with jump back falling heavy. Making the window to hit her be a little bigger could help that counterplay further (or at the very least make her more throw vulnerable, as things like ground throw are great for avoiding assists and bombs and still hitting Peacock) And as Triv said, if you want to specifically target LnL with H teleport, making it so Bella doesn't get pulled with the screen not only removes fullscreen mixups but also helps telegraph the move since the range of the mixup will be greatly reduced. Could be worth trying.

What this H teleport nerf does is bring in LnL and the few other assists that escaped the previous nerf from 2014/15 (whenever it was) in line with the rest of the assists in the game. Increasing the recovery of H teleport would just add another exception in a game that was supposed to minimize exceptions in the first place and I'd rather not have to go through that just to target the primary assist that escaped the first correction. As far as I'm concerned Peacock should either have mix up capability available with all assists or none of them and the community chose a long time ago that as a whole they'd rather have none.

On a different note, as of right now, the biggest problem I'm encountering with the H teleport changes is that they don't really follow the rules laid out in the patch notes for when H teleport returns to being H teleport. I've appeared right in front of my opponent after they've been put in block stun, as my assist was taunting, and while my assist was getting hit. It hasn't been consistent either, so I don't know what to say beyond, it needs some tuning.

Also, can we do something about Cerebella's anchor point being so far below her hurtbox? At least during combos? Why does it need to be at the tip of her knives instead of her foot and the tip of her hons instead of her head?
 
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Sy Noon

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this is mostly a question about fortunes jump change. I noticed that the extended hurtbox also affects her double jump. I know they share the same animations, but I don't know if it was intentional for both instances to have the extended hurt box.

I'm also kinda hoping she gets her headless grab invuln fiber back. I use it a lot for evading things like Giant step and daisy pusher. I just want it for headless lol

I also remember talking a bit about this on the beta discord. but I think it may be a good idea to have the Absolute Guard be yellow. I think of it almost like a stop light. Red is block, yellow is absolute guard. pbgc is green, go!!
 

iControl

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Valentine Cerebella Double
Could the projectile dhcs like sbo and and lvl 3 robo Missiles stop locking out assist calls. If the lock out was removed there could be more dynamic combos and I would love to see what combos you could up with. For example, reflector lens dhc + Assist. If there's a good reason it's locked out in the game I would like to know as well.
 

Triviality

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As far as I'm concerned Peacock should either have mix up capability available with all assists or none of them and the community chose a long time ago that as a whole they'd rather have none
What
 

Aristal

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Eliza Unknown Parasoul
My thoughts after playing Annie on beta:
Honestly, i think this character kinda sucks in her actual state, she lost most of the things that make the character good, she doesn't have that big of damage anymore, she doesn't have the full screen conversions out of a level 2 super which is very hard to be punished (this was a little too much), she doesn't have the old jHP, she can barely convert of some situations because of the JMP changes and H Knuckle is dead (her others assist at least survived).
I don't think the character should have everything she had on the retail version tho, but nerfing absolutely everything the character had was too much.
My suggestion would be:
-Revert all the buttons changes MAINLY the jMP one cuz that change was really stupid IMO
-Leave the pillar changes the way they are because that super was a hella OP ( if possible make it more satisfying to use tho because it feels really bad to use it with the lower hit stop)
-Revert the Meteor Strike or the dash nerf because right now without the fullscreen conversion of pillar it is REALLY hard to get into characters that can zone you out
-And also revert her damage nerfs, this one may be a hot take but i think that a character so focused on close range like Annie should have big damage

Why i think all of that should be reversed?
-For her buttons: Not only the changes killed some combos routes and mixups but jMP was never a problematic button to begin with i wouldn't mind that much if jHP wasn't reversed but jMP has no reason to stay the way it is right now.
-For the zoning problems: Annie always had a problem against zoners if she didn't had meter even before the nerfs but now she still have problems with zoners even when she has meter, even characters who normally has problems against zoners like Beowulf can gamble a meter and try to get in.
-For her damage: there's a lot of characters in the game with big damage already, take Painwheel, for example, she could always do giga damage with HI DHC and it could also be used as a safe DHC with pillar being easier to punish and not giving you a conversion wherever you are it shouldn't be a problem if it would at least reward you with big damage.
 

Stuff

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I still think the best nerf for Peacock is to just make her projectiles go away if she gets hit. I get the logic behind the scaling nerf but the way I see it is, Robo keeps her good trade because it's a resource and peacock has it on demand. I'd also argue that Robo has to do this on purpose whereas Peacock may not always be trying for that. I don't think Peacock's toolset is very changable without making it completely bad or boring so at least making her more hittable would be a great tradeoff, I'm just tired of hitting her and not being able to continue my combo because a bomb is coming down and suddenly it's my fault for even trying to approach. (At least for H plane PLEASE) My problem with Pea is that she's just not that hittable, at this point I just think this game is going to have stupid mixups you can't do much about, I'd rather solve problems where the thing that should get rewarded (at least in my own personal opinion), does.

Also since this thread is a thing, I think it would be a really good idea to get behind what the community wants because I legit don't understand anyone's goal with the game currently and being passive aggressive about it on Twitter isn't the way. If you all want the game to be a specific way I urge you to please write it down here, I think going forward that will help a fuckton with what gets changed and what doesn't otherwise you're in for a lot of patches where you're not even sure this was what you wanted, there's a time limit to these patches and testing what feels more urgent would be a great way to start imo.


(Unless everyone writes stuff on discord in which case, good luck with that mess.)

I don't really have much of a personal goal other to make Painwheel more like Spiral and overall less limited on her flight but it's kind of hard to listen to me if I don't really play as much as I used to, and I'm the only one who wants these changes lol. I really like zoner PW but as it stands it's much harder to use effectively than any other zoner in the game what with charging something for a second (free arm super, free brass, free anything that moves forward 'cause you get a whole second+) that barely does chip and pw doesn't get much pressure from due to how slow flight is and the projectiles are easy to pb which further makes it worse to the point it's just better to run brass or something. idk, I just want my very niche strat to work (though honestly I'd rather just have the ability to throw nails more often and that they do more chip and also remove the buer-takes-a-flight-cancel thing but that's opening pandora's box, pw's mix up game would get a lot stronger but again idk what anyone wants, I just want more chip and more nails and backwards flight isn't slow)
 
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alexpi

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what are the odds that umbrella is out in time for frosty?
 

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Ms. Fortune Unknown Eliza
this is mostly a question about fortunes jump change. I noticed that the extended hurtbox also affects her double jump. I know they share the same animations, but I don't know if it was intentional for both instances to have the extended hurt box.

I'm also kinda hoping she gets her headless grab invuln fiber back. I use it a lot for evading things like Giant step and daisy pusher. I just want it for headless lol

I also remember talking a bit about this on the beta discord. but I think it may be a good idea to have the Absolute Guard be yellow. I think of it almost like a stop light. Red is block, yellow is absolute guard. pbgc is green, go!!
Headless Fortune's weakness is lack of a reliable reversal (without proper head position, you basically don't have a reversal while headless). She has two amazing reversals in terms of sneeze and nom, and doesn't need another reversal on top of it.
 

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I'd like to point out that nom requires you to block correctly first and sneeze requires that the head be not in cooldown in the first place and in most distances hitting both fortune and the head mean the head will more than likely be in cooldown longer than fortune can possibly recover these are only valid reversals if the opponent doesn't know how to deal with her and I'd call that a player issue, not an issue with fortune. Personally I'd call them less than stellar but glad that they are there at least because they do come in handy and are decent defensive tools though as a reversal I kind of shrug I think they shine brighter in not-that-situation.

EDIT: Oh hey while we're talking about head stuff, in training mode fortune can't seem to do reversal head specials from what I can tell, if that could change I think it'd help better understand what you can do against her.

Secondly, what's the difference between fortune using headless fiber to avoid a throw and jumping, one results in a jump in which is better anyway so I really don't understand why it has to be removed at all. Like yes it's a nerf we're seeing red in the water but like why? It's an adaptable change and it doesn't necessarily hurt fortune but I still think the rarely used option of throw invuln headless fiber should still be there only because it was like a little bandaid it's nice having two anti throw options. I realize this isn't a good point to keep it throw invuln but frankly there was never a good reason to remove it imo.

Edit 2: I know I'm making a big deal about this but my problem is again not that Fortune got nerfed it's just more that it feels like a nerf just to nerf so that people will be happy without solving core problems people have with her (The jLK nerf is maybe the only thing close to that, I don't really like it because everyone has a god light button give or take but hey it be like that so if it stays I guess it stays though I really think a DP assist would solve that as a counterpick [maybe]). And I feel that way about a lot of things I just know more about fortune than the other characters affected so I feel more comfortable talking about this one.

Also as much as I want to have Painwheel with more assist utility I'm kind of hoping for the next patch she becomes more of a point character like annie and double can sometimes be, currently pw sits as combo fodder for a team and "wow big damage" is cool but I think pw is a much cooler character than that there's so much to pw that's really interesting and I think it's a shame she's just used for damage engine. and I'd personally rather have m pinion be h hairball to further solidify a chipping type team and hopefully in the next dlc a character like b dahlia will add more chipping options 'cause chip strats are cool and SG has a stunning lack of chip assists or just chip in general.

Edit 3: Not that I wouldn't take the charged nails assist, I think it'd be an interesting addition whether it'd be balanced or not I'm not entirely sure, it'd probably be a really good oki assist tool and even if it would be much slower than beam is, it'd would be somewhat of an anti armor tool but probably a much better approach tool provided she doesn't get hit by other neutral assists.
 
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missingno

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Valentine Robo Fortune Parasoul
what are the odds that umbrella is out in time for frosty?
Zero. She's only just transitioned from alpha to beta, and it'll still be a while longer to get her on console.