The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

[Controlfreak69]

Could you extrapolate on that? Part of why I don't agree is that it's very vague and frankly the only hatred buers that would be useful would be the ones that send to corner but the thing is I just don't see much of an improvement for the character because the rest of her tools would still be lacking.

Regardless, I don't think install DHC combo being as strong as it is should really constitute a nerf since plenty of characters that are also exceptional on point 3 bar dhc TOD anyway. So to me it seems like a moot point.

I just really don't think it should be changed at all, it's a secondary effect so it was bound to always be half baked and any new ideas would be hard to balance because it would either be too good or worse. I really believe the focus should be on the armor itself since that's what wins games. The secondary effect highly relies on the primary effect imo. Which to me means, "Who cares if you have install buers on deck, you can't do anything if your armor breaks easily." so I'm pretty opposed to the idea since it doesn't fix anything Painwheel is currently bad at. I'd be more into the idea if it gave her like, HNK boost stocks or something but that's a ridiculous idea but I'd be more okay with it because Painwheel lacks good movement. (another stupid idea would be to let her FADC on armor that was hit but again, really stupid idea but at least it would help painwheel move out of things.)

Painwheel's weakest trait is that she has an alternative way to defense but that alternative way sucks atm and those would be what I feel should be improved. She's already good at attacking.

Though I'm ngl I don't like being in conjecture mode forever, I really hope this patch comes out soon and then I can give feedback otherwise, I don't feel like anything I point out is particularly useful since idk what they're up to.

I'll try my best believe me I really haven't given it more deeper thought then I should since it was more of a fun idea and just make hatred guard better or just use differently. I barely use the bonus since it's just lack of control for me, but when it happens it happens.


So usually hatred install just enhance your buer combos so you can do other combos you normally can't do, the hatred guard I presented will allow you to do that without having to spend 2 bars (again this is mostly for point painwheel not mid or anchor) but you have to lose some health to get it that's the risk and reward.

You can do things like L buer into c.HP into J.H buer and your damage should went up by alot just by using the stacks I've presented or a better corner combo with it. The way how I'm looking at this is the enhance buer just gives you more variety in combos. It may be good or bad but we all know pw is getting somewhat of a buff or at least she will be in a better state while hatred install itself may get nerf.

Sorry if this isn't like some high detailed explanation lol, I just wanted to throw out my ideas out for pw mostly ^-^

 

[Mirin]

I have been playing Dahlia since her release and these are my suggested Dahlia changes, it's mainly focused on her blockbusters because that's where I think all the problems are.

Ice shot: The problem with ice shot is that when you block it and shes plus afterwards. Make it disappear/only hit once and -1/-2 on block, and only do the 3 hits if it connects. This will make it the same for doing setups with dolly and less frustrating for Band players and players in general.

Stage Hazard: This blockbuster has two problems in my opinion, the puddles do too little dmg, this makes it not that worth it to do early barrel on combo nor doing it midscreen instead of Last Call. Make the puddles do more dmg.
A way to "auto ignite" will be amazing, this will help her with her lack of flexibility on combos (It will be a great combo ender) and will make it a true antizoning tool because right now a lot of characters just ignore it (Parasoul and Double projectiles go above the barrel and on Peacock some projectiles also go above and you cant really ignite it and so on).

Girls night: I think its a bad super but I dont think it needs a buff. It was really overpowered in beta and right now its only useful as a 2 meter safe DHC and I think that is fine, she has her power budget in other things and doenst need to excel in everything.

Parting Gift: A little bit more dmg.

Last Call: Its perfect the way it is.

 

[penpen0860g]

After the update I was going to give my opinion, but since the update never came I will.
A nerf is certainly needed, but a little nerf, a little enhancement of other characters should keep it balanced

Nerfs reduce what you can do and make it less interesting.
No one around me was positive on this nerf idea.
I think the changes in the system are not good.

As for damage, I think it's fine as it is now.
Any further reduction in damage would slow down the tempo of the game and there would be a very large number of matches that would run out of time.
In fact, even with two touches, a 3vs3 match will require at least eight touches before the match is over.

We still have characters like Filia, Fukua, Peacock, Robo Fortune, and Annie who can run away for 99 counts, but with lower damage, they will be even more zoned, and when life is in their favor, they will be more defensive and won't need to attack

The two touches of Fortune Annie in the example are limited to limited situations, and if you lower the damage of the DP assist, you won't be able to do two touches.
If you still have a problem, lowering the damage of Fortune's 5HP or Annie's 2HP will solve it.
You don't need to lower all of Annie's damage.

Also, if you want to change the overall damage, you will lose even more flexibility in assisting.
For example, Big Band's Beat Extend assist is powerful, but　Brass knuckles would do more damage and allow for two touches.. If either assist is going to be 3 touches, you'll almost always be fine with the beat extend assist, except for vs zoning.

The rest are proposed adjustments for each character.

Big Band
▪Timpany would be easier to counterattack if he had about -20F when blocked.
If Timpany is hit, I'd like it to stay as it is, as it affects combos.

Eliza
Almost impossible to counterattack Sekhmet, which feels unreasonable.
Throw, outtake and 2HK alone make Sekhmet almost invincible while jumping
▪Make all H attacks, including 5HP, 5HK, 2HP and JHP, effective against Sekhmet
▪ Remove backstep (reversal is possible as meter is invincible).
Either of these would be good
Personally I think it would be interesting if all H-attacks were enabled

Fortune
▪I would like to see the removal of Fibre's invincibility to throw.
Headless throw invincibility is almost unaffected with or without it

▪ JLK should not hit Eliza, Beowulf and Black Dahlia in crouching (or change their crouching Hurtbox)
JLK is all about Fortune and will need to be carefully adjusted

▪The removal of the 2LK loop is not a problem either way. Just adjust the Hurtbox of the double as the corner bnb will no longer hit against the double
I still have problems with Air Hurtbox on Double and besides 2LK, zoom and elgato need otg and headless bnb is not connecting, so I would strongly like to see this changed


Peacock
▪removal of assist + teleport.
This is not a problem with crossups, it's bad enough that you can run away from the corner
vs Peacock is about driving him into the corner and catching him, but he can escape indefinitely.
There are plenty of ways to escape, such as George+teleport or item hold high jump air dash out of the corner, so there shouldn't be a problem without it.
If it affects combos and resets, just allow teleport + teleport only during combos.

▪Fake Teleport during item drop hold to removal bombs.
2HK -> Fake Teleport -> M item drop -> Fake bomb
This is an unreasonable linkage that is almost impossible to counter and will always have to be guarded against!
If you guard, you can run away, and if you hit, it's an invincible move that combos into a combo.
Once the bomb is gone, there will be a way to counter it.

I don't think Lenny's adjustment would be a problem without it, but if it is to be adjusted,
▪Make Peacock's Fireball not penetrate as well as old Lenny's.
▪Make Lenny a 2meter.
I think either of these should be adopted.

Painwheel
I agree with strengthening neutrals, but I think the DHC damage should remain the same.
The high damage of DHC is the personality of the painwheel and there is no need to lose this personality

Filia
I don't think it needs to be adjusted, but if it does, it should be to lower the height of the L airball
Filia has a high escape performance, and if her life is in her favour, she can escape until the time runs out.
The same can be said for Robo Fortune's high jump JHK!

Double.
We could go back to the old version of Luger, which is easier to combo.

Fukua
The conclusion I've come to with this character is to defend until time runs out.
Now Fukua has only one way to attack, JHK, and he can't hit with Squiggly, Fortune's 2LK, and he can't even JHK if he gets anti-aired, such as Peacock, Annie, Robo Fortune's 2LP.

Medium range requires meter to transition into combos such as 2MK and 2HP, and throws to counter 2LK also require meter, resulting in low damage progression.
Instead, the High Jump L Fireball is the strongest defence, which is the only way to get away with a 99count

I think a great many changes would be needed to make this character interesting!
Besides JHK, we need to add more forward moves from Fukua so that he can transition into combos that don't need to rely on meter
Making it so that shadow holds don't reduce life only makes Fukua more and more defensive
But if Shadow Hold reduces your life, when you go solo you're down to 1 life, making it almost impossible to reverse the situation

I don't have an ideal plan either, and I think we'll have to adjust it gradually.
We need to change a lot from the character concept.
As it stands now, you should at least be able to go from a throw to a combo with M Shadow with no meter

Beowulf
Some suggestions were previously made to not require a Big band, but that would be almost impossible
This is because larger characters like Beowulf and Eliza need a larger body assist to protect them
The only way to solve this is to make them smaller or add a double jump or air dash
As with Fukua, I have no suggestions, and any change from the current concept would require a lot of tweaking.

Robo Fortune.
▪H-beam assist is everything Robo Fortune is, and if it is weakened, Robo Fortune will become almost unused!
If it is to be weakened, I think it needs to have more combo damage and be able to fight solo.

And Robo has a problem with his escape performance.
Because some characters have no way to catch a high jump JHK, and if they try to catch a landing, they can land safely with JHP!
I think there needs to be some restrictions, such as lowering the altitude of JHK or only being able to JHP once!

▪Headrone Impact being active on the 6th F should also be changed
Currently, with Head, you can definitely disable your opponent's Low or Overhead once.
Headrone Impact could be a bit slower since 5HP also has armor

Valentine
▪How about launching the M Savage Bypass like the Air M Savage Bypass?
It's a pity that Valentine can't go for combos, even though he has excellent moves like 5MK, 5HP and 5HK.
It might be too strong, but give it a try

Delay Poison is strong, but it requires the use of neutral and less strong assists like Excelebella and Salt Grinder, which are Valentine's inimitable personality!
If you're going to change this, you need to provide other strong parts


Annie
▪If the production version is nerfed with star power, it would be weaker if it required 2 metres to install, remove the 5HK star, or change the trajectory, or make the star disappear if the attack hits Annie.
Currently beta installs are not very efficient with the meter and won't be used much

▪Also, we have weakened JMP in the beta before, and if we adopt that JMP I think it's a good idea, as it would weaken neutral and reset.

I'm not going to say too much because a lot is being nerfed in the beta right now.


Black Dahlia・Marie
Can you do something about the difficulty of using the 1 metre technique?
DHC's are difficult to combine and used almost exclusively for points.
If there was a 1metre that was easier for teams to combine, more players would use it

That's all I have to say about my opinion. Sorry for the long sentences, I'm using a translation
I sincerely wish you an enjoyable game!

 

[Aristal]

Eliza
Almost impossible to counterattack Sekhmet, which feels unreasonable.
Throw, outtake and 2HK alone make Sekhmet almost invincible while jumping
▪Make all H attacks, including 5HP, 5HK, 2HP and JHP, effective against Sekhmet
▪ Remove backstep (reversal is possible as meter is invincible).
Either of these would be good
Personally I think it would be interesting if all H-attacks were enabled

Imma be honest, people need to learn the Sek MU instead of asking for nerfs.

Sek has no way to open your defense while she is in the air, who cares if it is hard to punish her on the air, every second Eliza is trying to use Sek she is killing herself, so you can just hold back while she is in the air and let her lose HP.
Yeah she can eventually get on your face while on the ground and then she can 50/50 you with a high/low, but come on we are playing SG a high/low is nothing to complain about even more when you have a guaranteed punish if you block the high.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Imma be honest, people need to learn the Sek MU instead of asking for nerfs.

Sek has no way to open your defense while she is in the air, who cares if it is hard to punish her on the air, every second Eliza is trying to use Sek she is killing herself, so you cant just hold back while she is in the air and let her lose HP.
Yeah she can eventually get on your face while on the ground and then she can 50/50 you with a high/low, but come on we are playing SG a high/low is nothing to complain about even more when you have a guaranteed punish if you block the high.

I agree, but I also think the nerf Liam suggested where she cannot backdash when hitting a blocking point + assist is reasonable, and keeps Sehkmet in line with everything else. I do think that this is the only nerf Sehkmet needs though.

I'm also of the opinion people need to just learn to deal with it better. The amount of health she is spending to do skeleton nonsense (with or without assist) is very non trivial. Also, the answer to Sehkmet a lot of the time is not to 2HK or snapback, it's just to let her kill herself.

One of the biggest problems with the current SG meta rn is skewed risk reward, and I don't think you can say that about Sekhmet just because of the cost of using it. Yes it is cheap but she's killing herself to do her cheap stuff.

In regards to Annie I think the damage nerfs were a bit overkill, but I think we need to wait for the rest of the indented changes to get a clearer picture.

 

[Stuff]

Is there any chance crumple and stagger hurtboxes could be a little more standardized? I understand that they have to match the animation somewhat but I do think it's a little crazy how some crumples low profile and others are roughly standing height, makes it really weird for some niche routes.

Now, I don't think they have to be the same universal hurtbox but like from crumple or stagger the next hit transitions to the standing hurtbox so if stagger/crumple boxes were about that height, that'd be cool.

 

[Liam]

New patch is live:

Skullgirls 2nd Encore - Beta Mode Update [4/5/2024] - Steam News

Hello, Today we are continuing with some experimental balance changes for the cast. This is just the first update of many, and more system / character changes should be expected. Characters that have gotten changes may still receive more of them later. Characters that have no changes are most...

store.steampowered.com

Accidentally removed M Bang > Lenny > Argus, whoops, just as a heads up. Thought about just making Lenny have more start up and recovery in general originally, but decided against it so that sequence would still work.

 

[Sy Noon]

some misc thoughts on the fortune changes.
most of them I don't mind, and saw coming, but a few I do find worrying.

no otg from nom is painful, I'm already doing a damage reduced combo....


the extra lockout on the head is... a lot. especially cause people can already keep the head in lockout very easily with assists , or launcher into a move that sends the head away.

I'm not opposed to increasing the lockout, but 60F is painful

Unless the lockout timing is different for when asissts hit it, in addition to making it easier to hit when it's behind the opponent, makes it very difficult to even have a chance to use the head in neutral. With sneeze in particular it feels like a lot, as no one is killing with sneeze that justifies such a drastic change., converting from it too is already rather annoying.

Things like sneeze and nom where largely neutral tools, at least in my use case, and there are definitely ways people can beat their use. these are the ones in particular that just felt most egregious to me, as there is already solid counterplay to head moves. I just don't know if people are really taking the time to implement that in the MU.

I'm also a bit iffy on the changes to M and H fiber taking longer to launch, but this is mostly in relation to peacock projectiles and trying to "thread the needle"

throughout all of this though there are two things I would really like to see be done with fortune, it's mostly a QOL thing,
please make s.mp and s.mk on headless slightly vacuum or something, they kinda suck and result in 75% of my combo drops lol

also (headless) iad jlk not hitting crouched opponents in the corner is... ouch...

All in all this just seems to only affect headless, and incentivise head on. Which I won't lie I find to be very boring.

I'm still taking time to compile my thoughts, but these are by far the biggest things to me that I just... don't fully get.

 

[Stuff]

While we're standardizing normal jump animations, can Bella, Val, Double and robo get the same treatment? Or is this a test to see whether they should be standardized?
https://wiki.gbl.gg/w/Skullgirls/Game_Data#First_Airborne_Frame_Hurtboxes

Personally I like the change but I think every character should be that way, some characters have an extremely powerful upforward out of pressure

 

[No Funny Name]

To me the most powerful part of parry is is being able to tap forward against a jump in (or in a blockstring when they can't threaten a low, or in place of your high/low block guess) and punish, with no risk if they block/bait.

Reducing the window at best increases its skill floor without effecting its power, and at worst does nothing (in reversal like situations where you're parrying at the start of the window), and does so without affecting its risk as band just blocks if he guesses wrong.

I think any solution that I would like would have to have band not getting a combo when parrying a single hit jump in like say Bella jHK, and/or add risk if band reads and parries jHK when they actually empty jump. (I think a solution to this will generalise to the other situations where parry degenerates the game)

An idea I, non game designer/balancer, had would be removing parry stop's normal cancels (and adjust its duration), so if band wants to parry into something that's safe on block, he has to wait long enough for the opponent to land cancel/recover/interact, and he still has Parry Beat Extend for a fast true punish option while the opponent is stuck in parry stop - but crucially this can't be done on reaction to a single parry, so if the opponent baits it they get to block the DP and punish. Which, admittedly, is no different than DPing in that situation without parry, and if that's too risky then he can parry, wait, and press a normal to start a turn.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Firstly, I want to say thank you for this patch. I'm glad we're back to experimental stuff and I like the direction the patch is moving the game in. I've played all weekend and I think I've put enough hours in to give a sort of preliminary opinion, even if a lot of these changes will probably not stick.

Fortune

I believe the lockout nerf for Feline Allergies is kind of overkill now that we have additional ways to lock out the head, and the head stays in the corner of the screen where it's easier to deal with. 50 frames is an eternity in fighting games. If you feel as though the lockout on block should be nerfed, 60f seems reasonable, although I really don't think 50 frames is an issue now that there are far more ways to deal with the head. I specifically mention this change because I specifically want the nerfs to Fortune to target how auto pilot she is, and not necessarily to placate to people that just hate the character and don't want to her function. 85 of frames of lockout feels like it falls in the latter category. 85 is a lot, 50 or 55 or even 60 seem way more reasonable to me.

This seems a bit too severe to me. Instead, I'd like to try decap attack starting at 300 and then going to 150 for each additional hit, OR just make this value 150 or 200. Right now, optimal Fortune routing is extremely weird in the corner, and you basically have to quasi negative edge stuff to get optimal damage, and it feels very bad and unfun. I do think decap damage needs to be nerfed, but I think this is a bit overboard when she also received damage tuning nerfs in other places. I would like to see players rewarded for actually learning to play the character and going for optimal damage in the corner, and having to modify rekka loops or fiber loops based on weight and range seems like it should at least give a bit more damage especially now since 2lk loops are gone.

Currently this move feels inconsistent. It whiffs on crouching Filia midscreen at ranges it probably shouldn't, it can whiff on Squigly crouching in the corner, and there are many other instances of it just feeling pretty weird. Additionally, it still seems to crossup characters like Double (although it's hard) so a bit more tuning is probably neededJ.LK is the best normal in all of SG (or a contender for it) so it needs to get nerfed, but the move feels very janky right now so I think the hitbox will need to be reworked such that it's not a crossup tool but it still functions at the ranges you'd expect it too. Feels very "early version of a nerf" to me, and will probably get ironed out, but I just thought I'd bring it up regardless.


The rest of the nerfs are fine in my opinion. Fortune needs to become more than "J.lk + annie dp assist" the character and these changes are moving her in the right direction.

I'd like to see some additional experiments with Fortune that move the goalposts towards "no, you actually have to know both halves of the character". Right now, Fortune exists in a state where the easier version of the character is often more effective, and there's not much reason for players to actually learn the entire character. Head on generally is doing more damage in most situations as on example, where it would make more sense for me personally if Fortune was really only doing big damage with hard head loops in the corner as headless. Any changes that could push her towards a more interesting "no, you actually have to know how to play her" playstyle that rewards her for transitioning from head on to head off would be welcome. An extremely drastic change I'd be down to try is that Fortune only gets access to fiber jump cancel in headless. Another idea would be giving j.HP a bit more hitstun to let it combo into headroll again; j.LK is very nerfed, Fortune damage is incredibly low, so transition combos off j.HP don't seem as egregious anymore, and it would harken back to the glory days of Fortune routing where the combos we were doing were much neater. Essentially, I would like this character's power budget to be moved around a bit more, as head on feels ridiculously easy to play, especially when often times her damage is better than headless. Headless is the trickier mode to play, even more now since the patch and nerfs, so I want to see that incentivized to learn the mode that is harder to play.

Also please, if possible, fix Feral Edge whiffing on hit on crouching characters and getting you killed for it :(

Peacock

Fortune has lost her IDJ j.lk resets, but Peacock still has them. Given both characters occupy the most powerful character slots in the game, I don't think Peacock should get to keep these. This also keeps it uniform with past balance patches, where IDJ options have been gradually getting removed or weakened with each major balance update.

I still feel as though teleport + assist needs to get looked at to some extent, even with these other nerfs.

The current way Georges function is really cool, and I hope it stays. It feels very much like a "OK this move was way too good, but you still have to pay attention" kind of change designed by a good player for good players. I think some folks may still argue that bombs should go away entirely on hit, although I strongly disagree with that. I can see georges going away entirely (or exploding immediately?) if Peacock is counterhit though. Instantly getting rid of bombs should feel like a big reward, so counterhit getting rid of bombs instantly would be a good compromise. Generally I'm not a fan of just removing options that are a core part of a characters kit or identity, so this change overall feels like a great compromise. With the 50% scaling change to george as well, I'm a big fan of how it functions now. George trade hits are scrambles that really aren't that much in Peacock's favor rather than a robbery tool.

Valentine
Purple (poison) vials will likely need to see some sort of nerf now that Valentine has gotten so many buffs. If the direction is to minimize the two touch meta and move it closer to 2.5 or 3 touch meta, Valentine is very much easily two touching off resource gathering assists. Valentine "QoL buffs" are actually just buffs. Buffs she needed nonetheless, but I think keeping purple/poison vials the way they are now is a recipe for disaster down the line.

please make s.mp and s.mk on headless slightly vacuum or something, they kinda suck and result in 75% of my combo drops lol

I disagree with this. 5mp is +1 and can be auto piloted into. It is a truly PBCG safe string, even against SSJ (a rarity in SG). 5mk is the normal with more range that is less safe on block; it also doubles as a pushblock bait. I think these normals are consistent with other SG normals in that the one with more range is minus, and the stubby one is the plus one. Fortune pressure and hit confirms are already very strong, and this would move the needle toward being "too strong" surely. It needs to be on the Fortune player to be properly hit confirming with the proper normal at the proper range.

 

[the_rpg_king]

Hey, man. So glad that you guys are back to doing experimental stuff now that Marie is fully released to round out the Season 1 Pass. You guys were working your butts off on the general balance changes too. What really interests me the most is Annie getting an upgrade to her Star Power. I'm gonna call it "Star Overdrive." It's to better reflect her Star Power upgrades she's gonna get in the general balance patch.

 

[SeaJay]

Cool patch with a lot of interesting changes. I'll react to only the characters I know stuff about.

Counter hit assist calls now scale combo damage to 75%, instead of the 90% in retail.

Yeah, as a DP assist abuser myself this is probably a healthy change.

(many Tympany Drive nerfs)

This move definitely deserved to get shot - postflash unreactable, frame 1 full invuln, giant hitbox, trade god, interacts on block by moving around and trying for crossups, interacts with PBGC attempts by moving away, pseudo safe when spaced, converts to a meterless combo, killed a man in 1987 and got away with it, got stealth buffed with the system change making it beat air throws on trade, the list just goes on with this thing. War crime of a move.

(Parry window nerfs)

Not entirely sure this was necessary - yeah, the window is still wider than in 3S, but 3S characters don't have to deal with Skullgirls offense. Then again it's only a mild change so I don't feel too strongly about it.

Fixed a bug where pressing down + MP on the exact frame Cerebella left the ground from a jump would cause jMP to start instead of jD+MP.

Great change, I have gotten rising jMP a bunch of times and it's hard to tell whether I just stuffed it up or if it was because of "Pika_Bat Elbow Bug". Now it will only be a skill issue

When jD+MP is performed as an instant overhead after leaving the ground, it will now floor bounce for a combo that is easy to convert from, which doesn't use OTG.

This is CRAZY. I'd actually be really surprised if this stays - this makes combo damage from elbow HUGE. People are going to absolutely explode.

How about instead of this, we get:

• A nice buffer on normals after elbow so you can reliably pick up OTG with 2LK/2LP
• Elbow always hits as an airborne move (Stage 1) no matter what - no wonky Stage 2 hit on late-hitting/crossup elbow which stuffs up your resulting combo due to IPS/UD shenanigans

I do kind of like the easier access to groundbounce in certain combo scenarios though, I think that is cool and not objectionably strong, so I could see that staying on opponents already in hitstun, for example.

More jHP glide speed + glide momentum

Love this, I always thought glide felt a bit sluggish as a movement option and now I feel like I could potentially weave around some zoning or something with it

All versions of Savage Bypass (Air) will now produce a hitbox for at least one frame

Great change and big wins for Tyrone O'Canada's political campaign

I suspect this will just make the existing optimal routes more reliable (especially that damn airdash jHP jHbypass after TK jLbypass), and not really open up that many better routes than existing, but I'm sure val lab monsters are trying to prove that wrong right now.

(numerous QoL buffs/tweaks to Valentine normals)

I think out of these, 2MK second hit vacuum is the most consequential and will help out a lot with low confirms into 2HP. I'd trade all of the rest for just a little bit more hitstun on jMP because confirms into 2LP from that button feel very unreliable.

Not sure what extra jHK(1) hitstun is supposed to be used for.

Added 4F of hitstop (up from 0) to the final hit of EKG Flatliner so that there's a longer window to perform a DHC on the final hit without performing an unintended side switch.

Good change, choosing the side was definitely unnecessarily difficult before.

(OJ vial nerfs)

I thought people considered OJ vial merely really annoying, rather than overpowered per se. Out of the 3 colours, OJ is definitely the one that I use the least (mostly for its ability to stay on burst hit, which is now being taken away).

Purple (poison) vials will likely need to see some sort of nerf now that Valentine has gotten so many buffs.

I would rather have buffs reverted than having something cool taken away. Doing cool vial stuff is what drew me to the character in the first place, so it would be really sad to see that side of her get killed. Teams that take an otherwise-not-very-good assist to build vials ought to exist!

Excella assist already has pretty brutal scaling nerfs and meterbuild nerfs piled onto it. If vial damage gets taken away too, I might as well just play a multi-functional assist like LNL or copter. I don't want to pick up Umbrella and play Salt Grinder (which has somehow evaded those nerfs thus far despite being better excella, just sayin)

 

[Cattfish]

This has been a fun first patch to tinker with, so as always thank you for letting us try things out.

Personal note, thank you for listening to the change that lag vial disappears on hit oh my god its happening. While on the subject, I'll echo others in that I don't think the vial-strength nerf for lag vial is the most necessary.

I'm happy for that bypass is getting fixed for the better! I do agree that these are some  very nice QoL tweaks for her that should come with a minor price tag. I understand making 2MK easier for learning Val players and I'm for that change. I'm wary of the bdad normalization- it seems like a tool that yields strong payoff but in return you must understand ranges and intricacies that go with it. While bypass issues have been argued as player awareness at times, this feels like the sweet spot of proper usage.


I'm curious if Sekh needs to receive some of these changes and the buffs are compensation for that, or this is an experiment. It's been interesting to try!

Band changes are sensational. Parry window change is noticeable but personally not uncomfortable.

Fortune

Most of these changes are great choices! I would be echo'ing Fullbleed for a lot of this. jLK issues are self-explanatory, decap damage nerf is self-explanatory, etc. The input I want to give:

This much Sneeze cooldown is a killer for me, personally. I agree with Fullbleed that the combination of understood changes make this increasingly harsh.

I don't prefer doing the Nom 4-way, and instead, I do layered Sneeze setups that cover several options (a highlight of the character, and imo a fair reward for using the puppet character in more than using it for Nom restands or CSF HKD headless oki ). Sneeze setups cost more undizzy to create. My team was built on Fortune's meter/damage luxuries to do said setups. I don't care that I lost the two-touches. Currently I'm losing the ability to convert with the head in some cases, and then also losing my pressure for appropriately spacing my head in sneeze setups to where I can move it into Fiber~decap range for refresh if they block correctly. Because these rely heavier on controlling the head aspect & knowing my ranges, it feels incorrect to push her away from traditional puppet characters strengths.

No room for me to cry about the rest of this changes. She's the best character right now, and ultimately, I just want to continue pushing her potential.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Excella assist already has pretty brutal scaling nerfs and meterbuild nerfs piled onto it. If vial damage gets taken away too, I might as well just play a multi-functional assist like LNL or copter. I don't want to pick up Umbrella and play Salt Grinder (which has somehow evaded those nerfs thus far despite being better excella, just sayin)

This is an excellent point. I was looking at the symptoms rather than the disease, so to speak. It makes a lot more sense to normalize Salt Grinder to be closer to excella/a train scaling rather than hit purple vials. Salt Grinder is going to get some sort of normalization when Umbrella gets her changes in, I'd imagine.

While we're on the subject of Umbrella, I find it very strange her bubbles start combos in IPS stage 2 rather than 3. Looking at the other character's projectiles and what stage they start combos in, it seems like a bit of an oversight that her projectiles aren't start combos in similar stages.

 

[TikiYikii]

I think overall a lot of the changes are really solid.

The system changes seem pretty nice. I'm quite happy with the forced scaling in counter hit assists. I feel like the change to combos above 240 ud is probably going to irritate some folks, but it's definitely warranted.

Eliza changes feel hit and miss. I think the change to throne is super fun and makes the move actually feel worth using in neutral. Sekh damage nerfs kinda feel like a step in the wrong direction. While Sekh is definitely a very potent part of Elizas toolkit, the damage nerfs make a lot of her more optimal corner routing feel awful. The tk dp route now does considerably less damage and honestly doesn't seem worth it anymore with how difficult it is, how little meter you generate, and how much health you're spending to do it. I think approaching counterplay instead of nerfing the upside of a high risk/high reward character is the better route. I think this is definitely something that might need to be reevaluated in some way, shape, or form.

Just a quick side note; I think with Elizas taunt effectively becoming a resource, it would be nice to see some frame data changes to make more in line with characters like Beowulf and Squigly who can easily build taunt off common lockdown assists. As it sits right now, there are very few assists that Eliza can taunt and combo off. 85 frames is a lot for a taunt, especially if you're locking access to a super behind it. I think it would be completely reasonable for it to be cut down to around 70f.

The quality of life buffs for Val feel amazing, although I'm not too sure what the j.HK buff was really meant for. It seemed kind of random. Purple vial might need some tuning but aside from that she seems a lot more grounded.

Fortune being dropped down a peg is definitely a step in the right direction. However, i feel like the nerf to sneeze might be a bit overkill. 85f lockout is a lot, considering it was previously 50f. I think getting some sort of common ground (around 60-70f?) would be a lot more reasonable. I feel like this is something that will definitely be tweaked over this balance cycle.

Peacock nerfs are great. The trade off for George nerfs are a fantastic compromise to keep the move good but not *too* good. I feel like Lenny should probably be reverted and changed to a level 2. I think thats honestly the best way to approach that move if shes not building meter while its out. It gives a much better trade off for well times DHCs imo.

Overall I think the changes were great. I'm looking forward to whatever comes next.

 

[Liam]

Happy Monday. I'm now full time (!) on 2E stuff right now so I expect to be pretty active here for awhile.

While we're standardizing normal jump animations, can Bella, Val, Double and robo get the same treatment? Or is this a test to see whether they should be standardized?

I care the most about upback right now, and none of the other characters are as egregious as Ms. Fortune's, ignoring Robo-Fortune for a moment. Double is borderline. I might bring the change over to Robo-Fortune too, but being evasive, annoying, and running away from you is sort of her thing.

Fortune has lost her IDJ j.lk resets, but Peacock still has them. Given both characters occupy the most powerful character slots in the game, I don't think Peacock should get to keep these. This also keeps it uniform with past balance patches, where IDJ options have been gradually getting removed or weakened with each major balance update.

We're talking about IDJC jLK, AD, jMP here, right? jLK should be mid on the way up in this situation, sure.

Just a quick side note; I think with Elizas taunt effectively becoming a resource, it would be nice to see some frame data changes to make more in line with characters like Beowulf and Squigly who can easily build taunt off common lockdown assists.

I feel you, but Eliza's taunt is intentionally not priced to sell like some other taunts are, for the moment. If she's guaranteed to always have DHC capabilities (a really strong one that also wins all DHC wars and can't really be countered if you're doing something since it's a throw) just by doing one assist call and taunting, I think that's probably a little too frequent for my tastes right now. Where it's at right now feels pretty reasonable.

---

Misc things I'm aware of:
• Fortune's jLK Hitbox
• Unbreakable Elbow (lol)
• Time it takes for bombs to go away when Peacock is hit physically.
• Something with M Bang > Lenny interactions on hit. I may swap around the added start up and recovery to always be present on Lenny to open up a bit more counter play for the initial placement, as currently Lenny gives her access to 4F DHC options like Lenny > SSJ, etc, which could stand to be slower IMO. Then perhaps Lenny could use the old speed out of M Bang (on hit only) if the M Bang > Lenny > Argus conversion stays... But I also don't mind her losing midscreen combos off her reversal DP.

Also RE: Peacock teleport, it's very difficult to adjust anything about it without her losing her H Teleport conversions. Things like sHP x H Teleport after Lenny hits, or H Teleport after fully charged Item Drop lands, etc, will be impossible if it becomes slower. Any adjustments to start up would remove the cross up capabilities off sHP / H George, and maybe that's fine, but just making sure we're understanding the ripple effects any adjustments to it for the purposes of making her easier to catch in neutral will have on other things.

 

[tossle]

First and foremost, these Val changes are absolutely treasured. So many little annoying things were addressed, and the biggest offender is seemingly well fixed. I'm still a little iffy on the jHK(1) change, but it's not a big deal rn.

I'm really mostly posting to slap on this wishlist of sorts for Dahlia, after talking to a handful of other players, from intermediate to ones who regularly place high with her. Some of these are truly wishes, but I digress. Anyways!

---

jHK: This button is both a huge boon and bane. It commands a good space, disjointed, and is one of the buttons that clearly defines Dahlia's neutral. At the same time, it's reward for successful use is, at plenty of times, very unsatisfying, if not downright disadvantageous. Issues tend to rise when the timing for a shot to get *anything* from the hit can be wonky depending on spacing, character shape and weight, and if you happen to hit a point character with their assist, the chances of their assist eating the shot and putting you in an awful scenario is pretty high (this happens with standard, fire, and ice.) To address it, I'm not sure what would be ideal, maybe making the popup on hit effect bigger? Maybe it pull assists on hit slightly differently so the point takes priority? I'm not sure, but the button can be kinda frustrating at times.

While I believe the forced blue bounce on raw hit is mostly fine, it does seem restricting where in-combos always forces the blue bounce too. Myself and others would be pretty curious to see what might be cooked up if she would be allowed rules similar to something like Parasoul j.HP.
If required to justify making it more consistent (be it higher popup on hit or something) at a cost of harsher scaling it would be plenty acceptable. (Though in it's current state it feels unwarranted.) I'm honestly just really tired of assists eating my shots and allowing my opponent to tech in and kill me.

---

Other buttons and potential cancels: sMP, sMK, cMP, and cMK
As a whole, Dahlia feels absolutely terrible to chain into anything beyond a light. I could find this more agreeable if Dahlia had more cancel options, considering how her buttons tend to be slower and harder to make safer pokes (half her mediums pushing her forwards doesn't help.) A means to do this would be to make her mediums capable of being cancelled into onslaught, only on block or hit. These would likely not be gapless, but it would make it so Dahlia could stack potential choices and make interesting decisions, instead of being rail-roaded to either frametrap with 5HP, stay safe (and get nothing on hit) with sweep, or gamble on a counter. I do admit having special shots and assists of course helps currently, but I think it's worth exploring.

cMK is a funny one to talk about, and understandably a little devisive. It's strengths are good and apparent, but seeing as Dahlia lacks an entire typical button, maybe it could use something of a redistribution of its power? I would love to see it follow suit with the other previously suggested button changes, leaning in on the disengaging visual with an onslaught cancel, and speeding it up? The tradeoff could be no longer consuming a projectile, and maybe even having lower hitstun if Dahlia can cancel into onslaught.

Would it be on the table to restore sMK's former glory? Would be nice to reconsider if it would be too strong again.

I understand the core concept of having these cancels is a lot, but it's something a lot of us have talked about and would be very willing to test thoroughly. I specifcially put mediums as my example because I think it would be the most impactful without being overtly wild, but the idea was also considered for lights, empowered buttons, and some specific ones like jHK.

---

Shots: Ice should be a single hit in neutral, but a multihit on hit. Fire with it's nearly half second gap (28f) between explosions were suggested to not disappear on hit before the second explosion goes through. Worth mentioning I think the railgun lasers should ignite the oil barrel spreads. If anything, I'd love to see something like barrel on hit being a little more friendly to railgun in order to do things like a fullscreen confirm of barrel hit>railgun>convert.

---

H Counter: I'm not sure what to think about this move much, as I feel the projectile-triggering property gives a weird anti-zoner impression, when in reality it's almost always better as a means of escaping something like an approaching corner instead. If it's to be a a tool to help get in on more dedicated zoning, it's doesn't really achieve it. The effort to get it out and how telegraphed where you're going to go makes it hard to really do anything but teleport into getting hit. Honestly, is it just the wrong impression to think it was to help with zoners?

On the topic of counters, one suggestion was to make them at minimum safe on block. While this wouldn't negate the current weaknesses of safejumping or hitting Dahlia high enough for the counter activation to whiff, it would make the former less rewarding scenario without having Dahlia also just outright lose in both scenarios. Personally I like the concept, but I also understand if she weren't to get it; making counter effectively safer would possibly be unwarranted despite being really her only defensive tool.

---

Air doily set, teleport, and reload: This is likely the most outright wishful of them all. Understandably unlikely as it could require new assets, but I'm noting them anyways. Air doily could be really nice for having another way to set them up, teleports from the air would be obviously beneficial for escape plans and open a lot for combo and setup potentials, and air reload would be in the same vein as making her not so completely ground-reliant to access so much of her kit. Personally I'm only really invested in air doily sets, but I of course wouldn't be against messing with the other ideas, too.

Adding to teleports, a suggestion was made to have them recover slightly faster. 34 frames feels rough, even with the ability to cancel the recovery on frame 24. It does, however, require 84 frames to set a doily to begin with, a faster recovery would feel more rewarding for the cost, and it might open new combos and extensions, further adding to the fun of her rube-goldberg routing and planning.

---

Barrel: This super is probably one the most reliable workhorses of her routing and damage, and for the most part it's great at that. Some ideas for it focus on something like it being safe on block, giving a safe DHC option (I'm aware of the bunny girls, we're getting to that) and possibly having an instant ignition option on DHC. I personally lean more towards it being safe like -2 or on block, the instant ignition maybe going against an intentional design with her kit regarding DHCs.

---

C4/Parting Gift: Mostly relegated to being the metered combo ender option, there are suggestions made like using empower to further increase its damage, or give it hitstop. Other ideas are making it a special that then costs bar to detonate. Personally I like the idea of enhancing it with empower, though I would expect it to be just for the bonus damage. I think for the most part the super is fine, its utility and on-hit effect making it unique, and the only really annoying part being its low damage.

---

Level 3/Bunnies: This super alone has me in a weird place with how to use it. I pretty much only see it as a DHC tool for another character to make use of, or to secure a situation where I'm already at a sizable advantage. As Dahlia herself, I'm honestly not a big fan of using them, as they tend to present some issues that are workable but not really worth doing the work around for. They're not great for combos, they scale hard, mess up Dahlia's delicate routing, and can be pretty instantly dealt with if the Dahlia player doesn't immediately go into covering them, as a single snap can kill 2, possibly all 3 of them, for a single bar against Dahlia's just spent 3. At the same time, they are completely disconnected entities with their own characteristics, capable of overwhelming and restricting opponents' options, so I don't think straight buffing or nerfing them will ever be simple.

Instead, with Rey basically being the creator of this idea, what if Dahlia could spend 2 bars to summon a single one of the bunnies? It would be stronger individually, giving Dahlia more of an option that plays into her heavy planning focus while still staying more in directly control with the spent bar. Additionally, picking one of the bunnies could be an interesting choice, given their set behaviors, letting Dahlia have some freedom of style or more options to respond with in different matchups. Could be really cool to pick a bunny like Buttercup (Pistol) to aid in zoning, or Killer (Knife) to make your approach/pressure more layered, or to simply have Bonnie (Shotgun) enable higher damage routing.

---

Apologies if this wall of text isn't the best read, tried to make it flow somewhat. I really like Dahlia and wanna see her be even more fun, instead of running into what feels like limiters in a lot of spots

 

[softie]

my only want is for knockdown/tech timings to get normalized a bit, i dont play enough/care enough to talk about balance changes

as a defender the difference in wake up timings for tech rolls specifically still bugs me a lot

normally idc about it on offence
but it is comical that the previous DLC character is encouraged to do HKD oki and then the next DLC character's HKD timing is so much longer than average that the universal setups dont work on her

honestly feels like a bit of an oversight, but it is very funny to see veterans of the game playing bella for 10+ years mis-time the oki after rawtag on marie like 5 times in a row, its that much longer than the rest of the cast

i get that "no knockdown oki" is part of the spirit/design doc of the game but please it would be nice, and with all the burst changes, if tech chase resets were viable and somewhat consistent across the cast, it would be a very interesting option for people to branch gameplans towards

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

A bit of addendum to my previous post regarding the Fortune changes; it's kind of disheartening seeing Ms Fortune nerfed more than Peacock. I know the spot of "top 1" is highly contested, but we started seeing Fortune much more often because of how well she synergized with Annie HP assist (which has since been nerfed). As good as Fortune is, I don't believe she is creating the round start "if you don't solve this problem in the first 15-20 in game seconds you're more or less screwed" type of situations Peacock can create. I've always though Peacock was the more risk adverse character, and therefore the better of the two. This isn't to say Peacock should get more nerfs (maybe she should) or Fortune should get most of her changes reverted (she shouldn't), but I really feel like the bigger neutral criminal of the two isn't really getting their due here.

Obviously I'm biased as I play Fortune, but as good as Fortune is in retail at the moment, she is still not creating the night impossible to come back from situations round start, full screen. Fortune, while overtuned, has still historically had more counterplay than Peacock has; and that's not downplaying Fortune, Peacock just has that many options. I believe the top tier zoner will always be better than the top tier rushdown in any game just because of how much faster the zoner can get the "you don't get to play" gameplan started, and from what ranges.

 

[Iso]

Putting my two cents in about Robo because people feel some ways about her at present:

H Beam is undeniably a great tool, but for as powerful as it is, she can't have no weaknesses, and a perfect one is lack of damage, mixup and defensive options while solo. If you're gonna use her purely for the assist, make sure you kill them quickly or be forced to make a comeback with a character that does no damage, can't mix you up beyond low throw, and is forced to respect pressure 99% of the time. In fact, if you've got the meter, level 3 is really good(but not amazing) at making comebacks because of the damage and conversions it gives solo, but obviously that comes with risks.

A Robo supported by assists mitigates pretty much every single one of these weaknesses(as assists are intended to do). She has great DHC synergy with a good number of the cast, and most can give her a fantastic neutral game, as well as the damage she craves via particularly damaging assists. Granted, the damage she's doing is about on par with a medium-damage solo conversion(7.7-8.3k for a bar in 1.0 scaling for a good number of optimal combos, depending on assist), but it's enough to warrant putting her in the point slot even though H Beam is a really strong tool. Additionally, Saw + assist is really hard to punish unless your PBGCs are on point and then some characters just can't touch both for a HBD(unless your name is Big Band). All in all, the makings of a uniquely powerful neutral with some concessions in other areas.

The current beta nerf to H Beam is noticeable; calling Beam mindlessly at fullscreen now grants more opportunities for the opponent to smack her instead of her disappearing instantly. When used closer up, it's now more of a commitment due to these changes as well. I like it at present, it means characters have that much more leeway to disrespect the assist call or avoid the beam.

With the beta nerfs and adjustments to some of her bad matchups like Fortune, I think she'll be in a very, very good spot. The only thing I would MAYBE tinker with besides H Beam is how egregious her escape options can be sometimes(which has been stated earlier IIRC). Between her tiny air hurtbox and sj jHK helicopter making a lot of advantage states nil, it's often really hard for the opponent to pin her down, especially for less mobile characters like Bella, Band, and Annie. Sometimes even if you're in a position to catch her landing she can outprioritize your antiair or a2a with jMP, or just use the momentum from helicopter to jHP over the opponent's head. Sometimes, you don't even see her coming down because of how the camera shifts!

I'm not sure how you'd really experiment with this besides giving certain characters improved options at catching her landings, though I could see a maximum height or less momentum on helicopter to improve chances for the other player to react and punish her for trying to escape from a bad situation(though I'd say these options are WAY more committal than the other zoner throwing out projectiles mindlessly in the corner).

 

[Sy Noon]

I disagree with this. 5mp is +1 and can be auto piloted into. It is a truly PBCG safe string, even against SSJ (a rarity in SG). 5mk is the normal with more range that is less safe on block; it also doubles as a pushblock bait. I think these normals are consistent with other SG normals in that the one with more range is minus, and the stubby one is the plus one. Fortune pressure and hit confirms are already very strong, and this would move the needle toward being "too strong" surely. It needs to be on the Fortune player to be properly hit confirming with the proper normal at the proper range.

Maybe S.lk getting a slight vacuum is the solution in this case? it's usually s.lk into s.mp that causes issues.

also a random idea, for decap attack, maybe another option to prevent c.lk loops would be to have gravity decay on it? so you can get 1-2 hits at normal height, but it quickly falls off.

 

[Liam]

Maybe it pull assists on hit slightly differently so the point takes priority? I'm not sure, but the button can be kinda frustrating at times.

I can easily make assists fall much lower than the point character so that they never take the shot (except maybe Big Band), but I was under the impression Dahlia players liked having it pull assists for when you punish an out of place assist character and loop jHK strings on them. This would be harder to do if the assist was knocked less high than the point character.

I could potentially set it up so that if the first hit connects against a point character, only then are assist characters knocked up less high?

Honestly, is it just the wrong impression to think it was to help with zoners?

A little bit! It's up to how you want to play with it, but the main use of H Counter is getting away from a tricky spot. If she would be safe jumped on L/M Counter for example, use H to get away instead and exit the situation entirely.

If it happens to come up that you're using it to surprise a zoner every 10 games with a nice teleport after a projectile touches you, that's great too. You can use it to dodge some checkmate situations against projectiles too, like Silent Scope, Diamonds are Forever, Sagan Beam, etc.

Understandably unlikely as it could require new assets

Correct, artists aren't available for new assets right now since they are working on assist characters for SGM. The scope would have to be extremely small.

Adding to teleports, a suggestion was made to have them recover slightly faster. 34 frames feels rough, even with the ability to cancel the recovery on frame 24.

You can just think about it being 24, no reason to keep the 34 frames in mind. IIRC, I cannot make the recovery any lower without the animation looking ridiculous, it's at its fastest right now.

my only want is for knockdown/tech timings to get normalized a bit, i dont play enough/care enough to talk about balance changes

We intentionally keep them varied just following the trend set way before my time. Maybe we'll adjust the ones that are far outside the non DLC cast norm, will have to discuss.

is how egregious her escape options can be sometimes(which has been stated earlier IIRC).

Robo running away is annoying when time is on her side and she has a life lead, but I suppose I'd much rather deal with that than anything Peacock is doing to me from fullscreen, anything Filia / MF are making me block when they get close to me, any reset into death from Cerebella or Beowulf, and any amount of damage from Big Band breathing on me, etc. Like in terms of really strong things, does it feel that strong to you?

Resetting space back to neutral if you "let" her do that (I know it's difficult to stop depending on characters and you have to be preemptive) doesn't seem that punishing compared to everything else you're dealing with in this game, is my 2c. If you focus on it, I think you can put her in a pretty disadvantegous situation where she's going land, and use assist calls to make her come down with jHP / Laser a risky idea.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Robo running away is annoying when time is on her side and she has a life lead, but I suppose I'd much rather deal with that than anything Peacock is doing to me from fullscreen, anything Filia / MF are making me block when they get close to me, any reset into death from Cerebella or Beowulf, and any amount of damage from Big Band breathing on me, etc. Like in terms of really strong things, does it feel that strong to you?

Resetting space back to neutral if you "let" her do that (I know it's difficult to stop depending on characters and you have to be preemptive) doesn't seem that punishing compared to everything else you're dealing with in this game, is my 2c. If you focus on it, I think you can put her in a pretty disadvantegous situation where she's going land, and use assist calls to make her come down with jHP / Laser a risky idea.

While I understand where you are coming from here, could we at least restrict Robo Fortune's ability to call assists while doing rising j.HK? It effectively circumvents the no assist call at SJ height rule, and I always thought that was more the issue more so than her having an escape tool. Covering a rising normal with an assist makes in incredibly hard to punish, so the weakness of her escape tool is not really there.

 

[tossle]

I can easily make assists fall much lower than the point character so that they never take the shot (except maybe Big Band), but I was under the impression Dahlia players liked having it pull assists for when you punish an out of place assist character and loop jHK strings on them. This would be harder to do if the assist was knocked less high than the point character.

I could potentially set it up so that if the first hit connects against a point character, only then are assist characters knocked up less high?

I'm very much down to try it out! I have some concerns about scenarios where the point gets caught moving after their assist gets sniped, but it's not enough to dissuade this idea (assuming it even comes up that often in matches.)

 

[ShakyFingers]

I have some opinions on some of the changes that I don't agree with, particularly with Peacock and Fukua, but I'm gonna let them stew for a bit longer cuz this is, what, day 2? Day 3?

I mainly wanna ask if there's somethin' we can have done with Marie's sliding knockdown animation. Visually she gets up really quickly but is still in the recovery process, so it's really easy to see her stand up and go "Okay, she's up now" and then your meaty goes right through her because she's still getting back up.

I understand if it can't be adjusted in any way cuz I'm ultimately being skill issued, but Marie's sliding knockdown is the only one I have this issue with, and I've seen a few other people echoing the same issue with it.

Thank you for your hard work as always, Liam and team. I don't think Bella needed it at allllll, but the new elbow is very fun.

 

[G0ldenTw1g]

With the release of the balance patch and ensuing discussion, I'm back to talk about dahlia again with new suggestions, I tried to keep it short by removing railshot/electric ideas but it's not possible, my b
Barrel:
Make it so it stops exploding mid-attack, I'm scared to use it due to how consistently messes up combos. I think a good idea is to make specials and supers count as hits to the barrel's hp. This way you can still deploy the barrel in neutral and hit it with normals to push it without it detonating, while combos and special/super enders can make use of the explosion consistently (if they apply)

Girl’s night out:
I feel like you should get rewarded for being involved alongside the bunnies jumping the opponent. The buff needed should be more along the lines of consistency over anything else, perhaps they do certain attacks when commanded, the player has to take a more active role and input something (236LP, followed by 214PP so you can save lights from grounded bullet conversions and maintain high damage) so they respond by attacking the opponent. Add mechanics that make it more rewarding to actively experiment with this super. I think the biggest problem by far is how the super lacks impact, Lvl 3s in this game are hard hitting, I understand the point isn't to have one BIG hit, but rather multiple medium sized hits that add up to BIG damage, but the scaling system simply punishes this type of dynamic, even when they currently unscale per hit. Another problematic factor is how easy it is to deny. It's almost like a lose-lose way to spend a bar for dahlia right now: Use it to zone and more than likely the enemy can comfortably hit or snap them, use it up-close or in a combo and still you gain almost nothing from it. It has to be brought up and above damage/potential to the level that Last Call can achieve.

C4:
There could really be so much more to this super, like just a couple things and it would instantly become more aligned with its identity as a set-up explosive. You can't even do c4 oki stuff, cause it staggers. I think the main problem with this super is the extremely restrictive use cases and damage. To fix this it should have strength variants (like with barrel L M H variants affecting distance traveled) with each having a different purpose. Variant 1 should be the no-hitstun/stagger c4 with no scaling (you’d need specific routing to make it work), variant 2 would be the current c4, and variant 3 is a timed c4 with stagger. You’d be able to experiment and do way more with this super.

Last Call:
This super is definitely the best one as of now, though I wish the recovery would be tweaked to be more flexible with more creative conversions. I would suggest it to be lowered to 25f from the 31f it is currently. If that’s too low make it at least 27f, that's about it.

Shots:
Standard
Almost perfect, the only tweak I think it needs is to make it consistent in happy birthday situations. Right now it is common for the assist to absorb the hit and this causes the point to fall out the combo.

Buckshot
I’ve been thinking quite a lot about this bullet type, and making its startup 15f instead of 21f so it becomes more consistent as an overhead option. It could also allow for resource management as it can combo from j.Lk, currently the only way to combo from onslaught j.Lk overhead is with empowered j.Hp, this would open a new option that allows saving the empower attack for later. Though against heavier characters this would only really work in the corner. I’m not sure if this is really a change that is necessary, but it’s something I’ve thought about. The on-block plus frames could be reduced to +1 or +2 instead of the +7 we have right now. The hitbox could also be slightly nerfed if the startup is buffed, railshot can fill the niche of hitscan bullet.

Fire Shot
You could tweak it so that the follow-up shot doesn't go away on hit as other people have said but I'd tread carefully due to how obnoxious these types of projectiles can be. In all honesty I think the fire shot should stay mostly as is, just a slight damage buff, and make it so it detonates anyways when hitting the ground or an assist, that way it has uses in neutral and could allow for happy birthdays instead of the assist getting hit once by 2 damage and leaving before the explosion happens. The problem lies more in it being currently outshined in damage and the lack of reload bullet control, which I hope is addressed sometime. I guess the tldr of how envision it is like a standard shot but better and with a more impactful explosion.

Ice shot
I believe this shot should've remained as a purely time-buying shot, and not the master of all bullet that it is right now. With reload changes, a nerf to ice shot would not cause it to be useless, instead it would be specifically used for setting up as freezing the opponent would still have its important uses.

Experimental suggestion for doily and counter?
Doily counter is alright as is, but I have a hard time using it, especially its anti-zoning properties, feels too risky. What if your reward for doily setup plus having empower is that doily tp can be forced by performing a special grab-invul empowered “burst” with a hitbox? I want her to at least have one defensive option she is incentivized to set up where she actually has a chance to escape a disadvantageous situation and put both characters back in neutral. The empower hitbox hit itself would happen on both sides of the teleport to be useful in anti-zoning and strike/throw rushdown situations. I would like MORE synergy with her resources and tools so her defensive decision-making feels more intertwined and can help her not get instantly snowballed by every character who grabs. Allow for counterplay to this too, I just feel that she needs that extra defensive something where the opponent has to consider the possibility of their grab/patience getting countered, similar to peacock’s dp mindgames, but less accessible. This could also go hand-in-hand with the dead character empower nerf.

Normals:
Most normals are honestly perfectly fine, the only one i’d tweak is 5MP, make the first 2 hits vacuum, that way it's more reliable to try and poke without dropping/getting hit awkwardly by 5HK followup, and cancelling into shot would be less weird. Jumping characters are very weird to combo when this lands, so this would be a very welcome change.

and M reload and H reload stuff

 

[Lex]

[Val:] I'm still a little iffy on the jHK(1) change, but it's not a big deal rn.

Fwiw I believe this change is to prevent jHK(1) Bypass from dropping in neutral/combos when it accidentally hits instead of the 2nd hit which has way more hitstun. Should be a nice little QoL change imo that reduces the number of blocked air bypasses into death.

 

[Nuuance]

maybe im late to the party so if it's literally a consensus for 100% of people then sure thing, but can we get a visual timer on annies install that's not a colorful shadow. i understand the skullgirls way used to be not much UI stuff but it's 2024. We can handle it. SGmobile does...and thats on a phone.

and why is it level 3? The entire point of her design was to go in & out of install as a core mechanic and it's still like this franken-move. To be real i never cared for annie but the install thing was just so amazing to hear and only sg mobile has the original rendition (im assuming). it was why so many stuck around. maybe im the only one but like it's sad to see. There was nothing more fun than day 1 of annie straight up. it was OD, but it couldve been balanced so it was kinda like mobile or new ABA where it runs out fast but also builds up fast; normal mode is not the best but install goes bonkers. Everyone's having fun. Where's the fun in annie. she's not fun at all.

the thing about dhc wars makes sense on eliza. so yeah, taunt away.

The red bounce to throne while cool is like ummm...ok. I see potential use in the corner for oki/combos which is great, but eliza's corner combo game is already sweaty. Assist game goes up a bit but that never really was an issue, but like her as her own character, It'd be nice her specials simply being *better* or ability to againnnn, spend health or blood resource to make specials better. Or even hold buttons to allow her to setplay. I've already said everything in eliza thread but Sekh is barely a modeswitch. needed for decent damage & common conversions. L Twirl being positive would be great, seeing eliza has nothing thats positive. but sekh. alright.

I understand with a lot of balance it's implied in the word itself taking away something if somthings given but to be real, it feels nitpicky or rather it feels bad. The main thing ive heard is 'i dont get it...' kinda sums it up. Experiments so no biggy & things can always change but in general would like to see more pivotal changes next go around

 

[JuuseBox]

Man I think Dahlia is an incredibly strong character and H counter is one simultaneously one of the most expressive and strongest defensive tools I think the game has. Escaping offence AND defense on reaction or clearing the screen of projectiles with counter + assist is insanely strong and I think gets super under played.

I think the patch is a great step in the right direction. I am worried about headless fortune and feel the nerfs push her back to, "it's not worth it to use over head on", which is something she's battled with before.

Valentine is also looking incredibly strong without her poor qol holding her back. To be completely honest I don't think its possible to create both a healthy vial strategy and have her feel strong at her core. It might just be better to remove stacking / leveling vials altogether.

My wishlist for the upcoming patch would be:

-General

Characters that primarily do damage via their normals / limited special use in combos getting an increased amount of meter.

-Double

Spending meter on double feels bad. Dhc cat heads lost it's timer, AC counterplay has finally caught up, and people's defense have gotten much more consistent it's hard to open people up as a low / throw character with cat heads. It's become a rare conversion tool or a chip option. I would love to see something like L bomber catheads being true to give double essentially a solo safe dhc, at market price - 2 bars, that would still lose to all the things current cat heads dhc would lose to.

Especially with peacock getting the luxury of detail with bombs caring about physical vs projectile hit, Puddle feels very much like a waste of bar. I'd love to see distinctions like assist hits or projectile hits not removing puddle. I'd also love to see the return of things like barrel puddle.

I think double is a really solid character, but giving her tools to keep up with how current sg is played would feel nice. An honest low / throw character with OG hitbox / hurtbox design and very linear neutral tools (with insane amounts of no super recovery on moves like luger and item drop) just feels out of place in today's game.

- Annie

Annie install is really really good. It's very similar in playstyle to old install with spamming heavies and crescent cuts but much more flashy. My issue with install is not with strength but mainly with feel. RC mixups feel like what you pay 3 meter for, and despite all of them being strong, failing your one time use rc setup or using it in a combo for slightly more damage feels awful. I would very much like to see it's use get limited (no rc on supers / invuln, no rc on whiff, etc.) For the sake of more opportunities to use the cool new technique.

Visuals on install fading away could be more pronounced. Install assists not draining install meter could also be interesting and give back to the creativity of people using install normals as assists. Ways to extend install or invest an amount of meter for increased duration or benefits (Adult Gohan from dbfz)



- Fukua

Honestly I would just like a pass aiming to clean up some of her numbers. Things like increased scaling on resets for the more shadows you've used previously, or bff having 50% scaling (33% on dhc). I feel like those would answer her damage problems in healthier way than just flat out increasing button strength.

I would also like to see a normalization on darts an really just remove the cooldown and wait period between shots. The meter return doesn't feel worth needing to wait for the ball to comeback to you.

Anyways, regardless of the result the patch has me excited to play again.

 

[softie]

I have some opinions on some of the changes that I don't agree with, particularly with Peacock and Fukua, but I'm gonna let them stew for a bit longer cuz this is, what, day 2? Day 3?

I mainly wanna ask if there's somethin' we can have done with Marie's sliding knockdown animation. Visually she gets up really quickly but is still in the recovery process, so it's really easy to see her stand up and go "Okay, she's up now" and then your meaty goes right through her because she's still getting back up.

I understand if it can't be adjusted in any way cuz I'm ultimately being skill issued, but Marie's sliding knockdown is the only one I have this issue with, and I've seen a few other people echoing the same issue with it.

Thank you for your hard work as always, Liam and team. I don't think Bella needed it at allllll, but the new elbow is very fun.

I don't think it's a skill issue, she is actually just in animation that long
7 frames longer than previous longest, like 13 longer than average and 20 frames longer than current shortest

Should probably be normalized a bit, I know it's tradition/intentional but still feels like a tiny bit much. Esp bc the animation

 

[05mario]

I think the fukua health change is a really good place to start with her but honestly I think she needs a little more and she’ll be in an excellent spot. Imo the most important thing to look at and change right now is her throw. She arguably has the worst throw when in context with the rest of the game and her own kit. Other characters with weaker throws either have other pre hit options to offset that fact or never really need to rely on their throw due to the way they play neutral. A character like bella has a very weak throw but it matters much less since she has an ioh (which is now significantly better) as well as solid command grab in mgr (though it comes with its own flaws) or a character like robo who has a weaker throw (though she still converts with an assist) but it matters less since beams are very strong zoning tools and if necessary she has an overhead she can throw out to catch you off guard. Fukua is stuck with a very weak throw without proper compensation in other regards. Clones don't have enough range to consistently be used as a tool for pre hit mix and she can’t play a keep out game well enough to warrant such weak pre hit imo. I think you could buff the range on clones to allow for more threatening offense in neutral but as nice as it’d be I don't think she needs that and buffing her throws would feel better as someone playing fukua and someone playing against her. I think she should be able to convert off normal throw with a confirm like 5mk 2hp over just allowing her to convert with m clone. I also think qcf lp+lk (her fast command grab) should allow for pickups with otg and her qcb lp+lk (her slow command grab) should allow otgless confirms. Another thought is to give back the hkd normal throw once had and let her command grabs pick up as I described above. Whatever it is, her throw has to get changed in some fashion because where it is right now feels bad on so many levels.

Honestly I would just like a pass aiming to clean up some of her numbers. Things like increased scaling on resets for the more shadows you've used previously, or bff having 50% scaling (33% on dhc). I feel like those would answer her damage problems in healthier way than just flat out increasing button strength.

I kind of agree with juuse on getting some of her scaling numbers tuned since I think they’re probably a little too harsh right now especially with so many of them (50% scaling on darts, stacking scaling on clones, bff scaling). On top of the fact her buttons don't do that much damage it can feel like a lot sometimes so the numbers should probably get toned a bit.

Some other things that would be nice to get is full invul on grounded drill super. It feels like it should be a reversal super and is pretty standard so it's weird that you don't have full invul on startup. I’m not too pressed about it but it would be nice. I think clones need to go farther for things like confirms and consistency in combos but letting them go farther in neutral is a pretty big buff I don't think she really needs so if something like allowing them to go significantly farther in combos/when the opponent is in hitstun would be possible that would be really nice. If that's not feasible/a pain then a little more range on h clone for consistency in combos would be ideal.

I think adding cool functionality to moves without much use is a good idea and seeing what's been done with moves somewhat in that vein this patch, it looks like it's not entirely off the table for other characters. M drill staggering would add some cool functionality to an otherwise useless move. It allows her to get solo command grab combos which boosts her meter gain and damage as well as letting her pickup off things like 2mk 2hp in happy birthday situations. It's not something she needs but it's cool and m drill is useless right now so I thought I might as well throw it out there.

 

[Halibel]

I'm here to share the thoughts me and other Eliza players have had on the changes.
Excuse my English if my grammar is incorrect.

Sekhmet. The problems we have with Sekhmet is that the frame increase on landing(6) and jumping(2).

1: It has ruined combo conversions and made certain combos ONLY work on lights now. It has also made us have moves which just doesn't make sense anymore.

2: Due to land frame increase backflip is now useless in neutral. It's not needed even for burst baits in Sekhmet stance, changes made it unusable.

3: The frame increase made conversions such as bite into jM 5H to keep OTG not work on characters with fast crumple frames. Not really a complaint on the damage part, but both axes dealing 900 when one is 20 dizzy and 30 dizzy is a bit weird, it made 5H bad for combos outside start strings.

4: Sekhmet became a mode that self punishes for staying in it, but also becomes near guaranteed to punish while sacrificing health, even on backflip which is -800. It's now useless outside combos. And combos are heavily impacted, and too many routes are ruined (see below). Does not feel good at all.

Retail: https://streamable.com/iz8xgr
Beta: https://streamable.com/1jl1yl
(this is just one of the numerous ways it has impacted routing, and its impacted heavily.)

Solutions to Sekhmet?

Revert the land frame increase and jump frame increase. Instead make the reward for punishing her greater, but not guaranteed or super easier as how you have done now. Here's some suggestions. (Only change we want reverted!)

1: When swept don't cause the opponent to have their OTG consumed (currently she gets slightly knocked into the air but it takes OTG and makes routing for many characters not that desirable) (make crumple state? Or a very high hit stun which assist people to follow up on sweep with natural recovery?)

2: Make the combo starter stage 2. Currently its stage 3 so I think making it a stage two would give people a proper reward for finding the hit they need.

3: Make sekhmet unable to tech any throws while in the mode, currently she cant early tech but can delay tech for about 11 frames to tech out of any throw as long as she didnt press a button of course. Make it a guaranteed punish for grabbing instead. (This would make jumping with Sekhmet more risky as a result because now we cant backflip like we can in the ground, maybe even make the scaling start at 0.7 from a Sekhmet throw punish?)

Thoughts on Sekhmet: Its a very risk reward mode: As every single move drains health, existing drains health, and backflipping drains a huge amount of health. Down-Backing and waiting for the 20 frame overhead is effective, push-blocking too. Having a mode that punishes greed for staying in as Sekhmet be a guaranteed punish just feels awful, it also ruins combos and has forced many of us to play a playstyle we do not want to play, as you cannot even call peoples air buttons out with Sekhmet anymore, its simply only Eliza now, Sekhmet is a detriment in, and outside of combos unless you are in the corner.

We are fully on board for the rest of the Eliza changes, just not the frame increases, its made A LOT of tech unusable or only work on lights now. And made Sekhmet in neutral obsolete and unusable, even as a callout tool.

Eliza change:
Regarding Eliza's portion. All we want left is just please, Throne IPS to NOT be the same IPS as Horace(236MK), that's all we are asking for. Throne is hard to use in start string without an assist (almost impossible unless conditions are met) And it causes Horace to burst. Please change this!

 

[dekillsage]

Are there any plans to work on the lobbies? If we could spectate a set without going back to the lobby between games that would save our events an hour + worth of time and even more during editing.

 

[Liam]

I'm here to share the thoughts me and other Eliza players have had on the changes.

Good thoughts! My current plan for the next iteration was to revert frame data changes on backflip, adjust the landing/jump recovery to only be from regular jump landing (combos back to as they were before) and give that a shot next.

Are there any plans to work on the lobbies? If we could spectate a set without going back to the lobby between games that would save our events an hour + worth of time and even more during editing.

I'll see what I can do, but I suspect loading in from one fight into another would be a pretty massive refactor, and we'd need to be able to handle going back to character select / stage select without dropping someone out of spectating when people change teams... :S

but can we get a visual timer on annies install that's not a colorful shadow. i understand the skullgirls way used to be not much UI stuff but it's 2024. We can handle it. SGmobile does...and thats on a phone.

We don't have the key staff needed and allocated for HUD work for this balance patch right now, so I don't expect that will be possible, sorry. SGMobile's UI workflow is very good, understood by many, and not comparable to 2nd Encore. I was able to put all of Annie's UI stuff together just by myself on SGMobile. x_x

 

[oddberry]

I first wanna start out by saying I'm a huge fan of the patch and most of the things that went into it. There are a couple things I want to discuss regarding balance just to have my opinion out there.

System change wise, i think everything so far is great. The only problem I have is with the new super gold burst. I feel like this mechanic just slows the game way down for something that was already slow. It also stops snowball game plans because no matter what, you are going to hit max undizzy at some point. While it's not outright punishing the offense, I do think that the very first combo starting at max ud being Super Gold Burstable is a little counter intuitive with how the game is currently played. That being said, I've been playing in beta a lot and i haven't really noticed it that much, so I'm willing to play w it a bit more.

Peacock
I love most of these changes. I do think lenny should probably get something back. I still think lenny should be a strong super and for the most part i think it is. I really like the change of not being able to 50/50 the point while also guaranteeing an uncombo on the assist, but the way it was nerfed feels incredibly restrictive. Maybe make the assist bounce up a bit so that you can still get 2 bar assist punishes but you dont get a 6=50/0 that destroys my team in 1 interaction. That and giving m bang lenny argus back and i like the changes so far. The only other things i would really change are 2lk not being so crazy as an anti air and a bit worse tracking on item drop bc that move is still insane.

Fortune
Contrary to what a lot of people are saying I actually think that iad jlk not hitting crouchers up close is good. it incentivizes using different buttons at different ranges for different kinds of pressure. The way it is now you still get the same jlk adc jlk jmp pressure from mid range, but now up close you have to go for something else. I think its more interactive for both players and is a good change overall. I think the direction of nerfing headless more than head on is a bit odd. I can understand where its coming from, considering you get some of the best pressure in the game with headless, but head on fortune also just has really good pressure. By leaving head on the way it is now, theres basically no reason to take the head off anymore. I really like the idea of locking the head out for long periods of time, but that would be a good nerf to a headless fortune that would kill me if it touched me. now the head gets super bullied with no real upside besides i can blockstring you for a long time. also decap attack triggering ips at max ud is good but now it does it with hp assist macros, which is really annoying. idk how you would fic that or if fortune players just have to hold that but it's something ive noticed.

Valentine
While I enjoy the prospect of a more consistent valentine, I can't help but feel a lot of the problems people were having with her were indeed skill issues. Theres a lot of instances I saw where sure maybe bypass shouldve hit but others i just wonder why you would bypass there. Regardless I think she's in a really good spot.

Valentine
Purple (poison) vials will likely need to see some sort of nerf now that Valentine has gotten so many buffs. If the direction is to minimize the two touch meta and move it closer to 2.5 or 3 touch meta, Valentine is very much easily two touching off resource gathering assists. Valentine "QoL buffs" are actually just buffs. Buffs she needed nonetheless, but I think keeping purple/poison vials the way they are now is a recipe for disaster down the line.

I've already discussed this elsewhere but i might as well put it here lol. I think that vials are a really finnicky thing to touch considering not all val teams are vial teams. A lot of val teams get a vial in neutral and then have to hold it until they can use it. Nerfing another crucial part of vial load teams is only going to make that game plan less fun to play. The whole crux of the val + resource assist is that you have weaker neutral in exchange for some of the best on hit in the game. I think that game plan is really cool and with the current orange vial changes, way more fair.

Excella assist already has pretty brutal scaling nerfs and meterbuild nerfs piled onto it. If vial damage gets taken away too, I might as well just play a multi-functional assist like LNL or copter. I don't want to pick up Umbrella and play Salt Grinder (which has somehow evaded those nerfs thus far despite being better excella, just sayin)

RIght here I think that because salt grinder has no other purpose than an on hit assist the damage and meter gain it does is fine. I think if anything were to get touched about salt grinder it should maybe be the meter gain but again, it does nothing besides be a high damage assist. Its not a gigantic anti air like excella or a train or whatever the fuck pummel horse is. The way val salt grinder works just happens to be good synergy and i think good synergy should be a thing that is in tag fighters! Again if you shot the meter gain a bit i would not be too upset.

Filia
The 2mk change was amazing I love it so much. The only other thing I would really want is for filias jab to either be bigger or faster. Her jab is rarely used as a pokeout because its so stubby. It doesnt make sense considering fortunes jab is also 5f and huge. I think if you want to give the fast character a fast stubby tool, it should actually be fast, especially considering that 5f isnt even the fastest a normal can be in the game anymore. I would either like it to be 4f or just a bit bigger so i can actually use it as a jab.

Double
I have no idea why we are buffing catheads and lugers again I feel like I just woke up from a bad dream. I feel like double was fine before and now the tools people complained the most about before annie dropped are coming back. The m shot change is really really insane its basically impossible to challenge double doing m shot on block over and over. Thats just what ive gotten from playing though perhaps i just need to lab a bit more. I still think buffing double is a mistake but i'm willing to admit i might just suck.

Those are all my thoughts for now! Cant wait to see the rest of the changes!

 

[dekillsage]

I'll see what I can do, but I suspect loading in from one fight into another would be a pretty massive refactor, and we'd need to be able to handle going back to character select / stage select without dropping someone out of spectating when people change teams... :S

We only need the first part if it can be done. I haven't played a game that lets you switch characters/stages without returning to the lobby, but the time save from those who just play out the games without switching is still an hour + time save.

 

[SonicFox]

I think if we discuss Fukua, people have to be ok with NOT talking about 2014 Fukua.

She’s a completely different character now, and I think we should focus on that in respect to the rest of the cast, which is to say, she’s definitely weaker.

Personally I think she has all the movesets and tools to become a god utility character, but just doesn’t work that way. I’d be ok with her having low/average damage if she became a strong team player.

Seeing her get like Lvl1 drill invulnerability and safe fireball DHC’s or even LOCKDOWN/ different fireball supers to reflect who she is NOW I think could be incredibly interesting. There’s a lot of new tools that could be given to her that could be fun to mess around with IMO!

Fireballs scaling less and giving her more meter I think should be visited.

H drill being an invuln assist again should be revisited.

Forward throw I think needs a massive buff. I personally thought that hard knockdown made sense based on her new kit, but any buff to this would be nice.

That’s really it. Buff her in respect to her NEW kit.

 

[alexpi]

Sonic, I love ya, but an invincible multi hit lockdown assist is insane. We may as well revert hornet bomber to vanilla

 

[SonicFox]

Sonic, I love ya, but an invincible multi hit lockdown assist is insane. We may as well revert hornet bomber to vanilla

Yup I agree it’s very strong! There would be more stonks to throw her on the team.

We live in a game where we have H beat Extend, H beam, and H brass assists.

One of those is already a lockdown DP assist that happy birthdays on both sides LMAO

Making her a team player with an incredibly strong assist I think makes sense with her toolkit. Make her the Utility character!