The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

[Triviality]

Can we add the console VOIP to qm or lobbies on pc [as an option]

 

[Liam]

This balance patch is live (3.7.10).

The full update notes will be posted on Skullheart later today. For now, the raw gameplay changes can be found here:

5/28/2024 (3.7.10) Balance Patch Update Notes

3.7.10 Gameplay Changes MISC / SYSTEM / ALL Adjusted stage lighting to fix a bug where characters had defects on the bottom of their rendered art. Fixed a bug where performing a Stunt Double set to a punch normal could be cancelled on landing with a well timed dash. Starting a combo against an o...

docs.google.com

 

[WarpedEcho]

Happy post CB post! A lot of the general changes are great, and the one that catches my eye the most is max undizzy burst not getting rid of drama, alongside max undizzy scaling. These should be great for the meta as bursting from the throw tech/burst mixups at max undizzy won't be as outrageously punishing.

From testing I'll say a lot of pw's changes feel great. Grounded confirms are a lot more consistent now, and the armor fix does actually feel like it helps. Install changes feel fair for the utility it has as a DHC, although I do wish that it had something else instead of extended time on point activation. 5mp feels like a real button now and AAs after armoring much more consistently. +2% -> +1% meter on buers is a sound decision, but I'd like to see that towards stinger nails more than buers so as to differentiate her routing options (damage vs meter gain.) This would also reward her for throwing them in neutral more, considering they are a 40(+)f fireball I think they deserve a little more reward.

I'm glad that Caio touched on the shadow nerf to 2lp, I'd like to touch on shadow nerfs to m & h nails for conversions. When she lost frames on the fly cancel from stingers, she also lost conversion timing on AA hnail. There's a decent bit of range where the nail will hit but you can't convert it like you used too since it takes longer to fly to the opponent. Same deal with m nail. I figured just a few more frames of hitsun would fix that (or give back old stinger cancel )

The only other QoL changes I could think of would be a slightly extended DHC window for deathcrawl. Also sage is right, give her sentinel chip damage on her blade normals. Unironically this would be sick for her pressure routing with her multihits, giving less reason to fastfall/chain/fc out of them early all the time. This would give her a richer pressure game that cares more than going for mix or pb bait comparatively to the rest of the game's roster (other than fortune 5mp )

Eliza changes feel great, I feel more justified in calling throne, and being able to duck robo high beams is a godsend for the matchup. Boat having projectile armor a few frames faster is awesome too.

Peacock and Fortune's changes feel really fair. They both still really strong, just not leagues above everyone else.

 

[Nezo]

 

[Liam]

<img>

Cool art! But this is a gameplay thread for discussing beta/gameplay updates. This post is probably better off in one of the fan art threads in Skullheart?



Also Version 3.9.99, an experimental networking update, is available for OPT IN testing in the "Community Debugging" branch. Instructions on how to access that branch, and the changes in it, are in this document. Please read the document to access to branch. If you have any questions, feel free to let me know.

GOOGLE DOCUMENT LINK

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

As a friendly reminder, please don't shitpost in the beta thread.

 

[Liam]

We're working on a hotfix for Annie on PS4 which has her silent, and we're also working on the online improvements for Steam. We'll end up doing a hotfix on all platforms to get a few more bug fixes out and such as a result of that, but it will be very small.

One balance thing that will probably adjusted in this patch is Black Dahlia's teleport, just FYI. Currently she can loop H Doily > H Teleport and it's very difficult for slow characters to get in on her before she can teleport again, and I just want to get ahead of that so we don't have to watch painful time outs via running away.

 

[tarrasq]

After a couple weeks to try it and solidify my thoughts, really not liking the Super Gold Burst mechanic. I think it's a nice idea theoretically, making the max UD situation less punishing, but in execution it results in incentivizing BB/airthrow loops at max UD even further along with forcing modifications to offense in general that both feel bad and are less optimal than pre-super gold burst gameplans. The new version where burst can be punished at all is a marked improvement over the previous, unpunishable version that made mashing>safe dhc even more godlike than it is in sg, but I dont think taking even 100 undizzy off per HCH is going to take you below the max undizzy threshold, as the super gold burst typically happens well past 300-350 undizzy. If the mechanic is absolutely here to stay, then I think punishing a super gold burst should be more rewarding. Not as rewarding as a regular blue burst (the most rewarding type of hit in the game) but moreso than it is now. I think the massive disparity between the reward from the two types of burst is a big part of why SGB feels so much worse, and so I think reducing that disparity would be a good compromise. Rather than reducing either 100% or 0% of the undizzy, perhaps Super Gold Burst could reduce it by 50-75%? At the typical level of UD youd see a SGB at (350ish) this would cut you down to about 175. Then, your CH punish takes off another chunk, ideally 100, resulting in a burst bait punish starting with 75 undizzy. So still rewarding, but less so than a blue burst bait. Sage had another idea I thought was interesting where the super gold burst would reset you to 240 undizzy before the counterhit, generally resulting in 140UD gold burst bait punishes. Either way, I think this mechanic should change from the way it is now.


tl;dr: Super Gold Burst feels pretty bad. You should die for getting burst baited in skullgirls. If it has to stay, I think it would be healthy to make it more rewarding by having the burst itself reduce undizzy like a blue burst, just maybe not by 100% like a blue burst.

Spoiler: tangential

With the new visibility of negative undizzy after counterhits, I think it would be interesting to experiment with the idea of negative undizzy using the same drain-over-time mechanics that positive undizzy does rather than just instantly disappearing.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Any chance we could have jitter display next to the ping number when "-showping" is enabled?

 

[Liam]

A new build is up on the Steam communitydebugging beta branch, where the Steam networking changes were before.

The password to access to the build is HotfixTesting.

We're preparing a hotfix to fix an issue where Annie is silent on PS4, and I'm taking this opportunity to look at a few bugs and adjust one more thing related to balance for Black Dahlia as I've spoken to earlier. My attention is focused on something else right now so I don't have time to look at any other changes right now.

Here are the changes in this update...

---

Black Dahlia

Goals:

• 1) Avoid removing or adjusting her current setups when possible. This means that the types of things that can be changed about doily and teleport are actually very slim. Slight changes to anything frame data or timing wise will break numerous set ups.
• 2) Create a reasonable gap of time between possible teleports so that very slow characters have a brief window to fight her without her teleporting behind them again and running away until the timer reaches zero.
• 3) Make it possible to have a legitimate chance at punishing teleport (or interrupting the startup) using character specific tools if she teleports very far away from you for an escape, and you have a hard read and have baited it out.

Changes:

• Tea Slip (QCB + K when doily is placed) (AKA Teleport)
  • Invincibility now starts 8F later. Invincibility reverts back to the old version when used while the opponent is bursting, to maintain burst bait setups.
  • Now has a maximum teleport distance of one full screen away, instead of two. In situations that are unrelated to running away from the opponent, this improves her ability to convert off various cross up + attack style attacks which can be useful, so there you go...
  • Has extra recovery depending on the distance she teleports. Anywhere from 0 to 11 extra frames of recovery can be added. These added recovery frames are removed if the opponent is in hitstun or enters it, to keep set ups and conversions the same as before.
  • After teleporting to a doily, Black Dahlia has a 5 second cooldown before she can throw another one. Feathers from her cape will appear at the teleport location, and when the feathers have all vanished, the cooldown is lifted. While the feathers are there as a reference, you'll have to get used to the cooldown if they go offscreen. While I'm "looking into" other possible visual indicators for this, I have no promises I find anything better that doesn't look jank as heck.

Beowulf & Cerebella

• 360 jump protection now only kicks in if you have enough meter to perform a 360 type move. For Cerebella, she must have 1 meter, and for Beowulf, he must have 3. Fukua already had this behaviour, and Umbrella doesn't have 360 jump protection at all.

Beowulf

• Fixed a bug where performing a DHC while The Hurting was being recalled and trying to reach Beowulf could result in his chair related assist moves like (H Hurting Hurl) not working correctly.

Annie

• Makes sound on PS4, whoops, though obviously we can't test that yet here!

---

(Version number 3.7.613)

 

[tossle]

I like and agree with the teleport changes but I do find it a little off-putting to still be stuck in the doily lockout if I hit my opponent post raw teleport. I understand the intention is to make it so constantly teleporting doesn't dominate incontestably by being unreachable in some matchups/situations, but it seems a little harsh to deny dahlia in the scenario she engages and gets the hit

I do like the feather visuals, pretty neat

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

I understand that balance changes for other characters are more or less finalized, but the Dahlia teleport nerf to make sure run away/zoning playstyles are not too good makes me think there needs to be one final change to Robo. I really feel she got off easy compared to the other characters on the upper end of the cast. I think TK Beam needs to be addressed in some fashion, as it is very oppressive and has very little real counterplay. The H Beam change was huge, and it's nice you can duck it, but that's not where Robo is getting a lot of her free damage and chip, that's all coming from an instant beam with instant recovery that can be done off the ground without a lot of effort. My suggestion would be making a minimum height requirement for beam that's higher then where she can currently perform the action. I just would really hate for the biggest culprit of the "up up and away meta", which is Robo, to be able to run a sort of risk free zoning gameplan that seems like is being normalized for everyone else.

Additionally, Marie lost assist calls at super jump mk height, I think it's only fair that Robo also loses the ability to do it at j.hk height. Perhaps this is not an apples to apples comparison, but I think consistency is important.

I know we are past the point for balance changes, but please consider it! The bigger picture didn't really form in my head until I started thinking about the changes to Dahlia's run away ability.

edit: disregard, im a scrub :)

 

[Liam]

I know we are past the point for balance changes, but

We are not in an active balance patch cycle right now and no additional balance changes are being made at this time. I'm focusing on a very specific and ugly "run out the clock" strategy to prevent some specific characters from needing to put down the controller or wait 99s in some very unfortunate situations, and that's it.

 

[Calexe]

Changes:

• Tea Slip (QCB + K when doily is placed) (AKA Teleport)
  • Invincibility now starts 8F later. Invincibility reverts back to the old version when used while the opponent is bursting, to maintain burst bait setups.
  • Now has a maximum teleport distance of one full screen away, instead of two. In situations that are unrelated to running away from the opponent, this improves her ability to convert off various cross up + attack style attacks which can be useful, so there you go...
  • Has extra recovery depending on the distance she teleports. Anywhere from 0 to 11 extra frames of recovery can be added. These added recovery frames are removed if the opponent is in hitstun or enters it, to keep set ups and conversions the same as before.
  • After teleporting to a doily, Black Dahlia has a 5 second cooldown before she can throw another one. Feathers from her cape will appear at the teleport location, and when the feathers have all vanished, the cooldown is lifted. While the feathers are there as a reference, you'll have to get used to the cooldown if they go offscreen. While I'm "looking into" other possible visual indicators for this, I have no promises I find anything better that doesn't look jank as heck.

Super weird to see Dahlia losing a neutral and defensive tool to make up for Cerebella MU? I'll not deny Bella really has a hard time against Dahlia, especially if Dahlia is in the life advantage, but this is straight nerfing to both Doily and Teleport instead of adjustments. One of her corner setup is completely gone. The basic one (c[HP] > Doily > H Shot > Teleport) seems the same, even to loop, but the 8 frames nerf changes way too much stuff here.
I do respect the idea of "every character should be able to punish teleport if they have the right read" but the changes just stacked 3 nerfs at once, and I'm more inclined to recovery change instead the startup one.
Also, Dahlia uses doily throw to reduce recovery of her charged normals and in barrel combos, so, the cooldown change here affects her routes, specially routes with s[HP] on first string (meaning HCH combos requires Dahlia to dhc or tag even earlier), and I don't think this is intended at all. My suggestion is applying the cooldown only to Teleport, and making the Doily having a "dark colors", just like Beowulf chair.
And the cooldown of flat 5 seconds is just too high, Dahlia's neutral already involves a lot of commitment, having 5 seconds of cooldown makes a bad teleport results in death, for sure. I think variable cooldown between 1, 2 and 5 seconds based on distance can be better for this balance.

I expected to see at least one considerable buff in compensation, something like doily taking less time to hit the ground or Dahlia being able to cancel shots into teleport. These nerfs might be at right direction, but for sure it's super weird to see changes after a big balance patch and only nerfs, not even compensations.

Spoiler: Corner Setup

Spoiler: Frame Kill

 

[Liam]

I think things will be okay without the invincibility changes on start up yeah, so I'll tweak that and put that back to retail values. The cooldown and recovery is the main thing which needs to stay.

and I don't think this is intended at all.

It's not the point of the changes obviously but it is "expected", and thus intended, yes. I'm aware of the cascading implications of the changes and they are a necessary evil - this stuff happens all the time - Peacock lost a bunch of small things like this in her nerfs for example, and I am okay with that.

and making the Doily having a "dark colors", just like Beowulf chair.

Part of the point is to stop her from throwing another doily down for later without risk immediately after teleporting when she's too far to be punished, even if she can't teleport to it yet.

I expected to see at least one considerable buff in compensation

We're not doing additional balance changes right now, there just isn't time in my/our schedule at the moment. I know that's frustrating, but I'm just being transparent about it.

 

[SeaJay]

Been loving the blue undizzy indicator lately.

I reckon Dahlia should be able to bypass the cooldown on doily throw as long as the opponent's point character is in hitstun. If she's hitting the opponent she isn't running away.

 

[LalitoTV]

Will peacock's M bang sprites be updated sometime?
The current sprites are extremely misleading and make it hard to grasp just how much range mbang actually has now.

I'd love to see a visual update.

 

[Liam]

Been loving the blue undizzy indicator lately.

I reckon Dahlia should be able to bypass the cooldown on doily throw as long as the opponent's point character is in hitstun. If she's hitting the opponent she isn't running away.

This would happen when you get hit by a projectile, which is still used when running away, so I elected not to do that.

Will peacock's M bang sprites be updated sometime?
The current sprites are extremely misleading and make it hard to grasp just how much range mbang actually has now.

I'd love to see a visual update.

No, sorry. There's other examples of hitboxes being shorter than the art that are bigger offenders than M Bang imo.

Also, the patch is live on PS4 and Xbox One as of about an hour ago, changes are done for now.

 

[LalitoTV]

No, sorry. There's other examples of hitboxes being shorter than the art that are bigger offenders than M Bang imo.

True, but to be fair M bang would be way easier to update as the actual animation would go unchanged, its just the sword graphics that would need to be updated. But, well, its understandable, given how you are busy with other more important things, i was just hoping that, maybe in two years from now, when all dlc is done, maybe, just maybe, we could see an update. Sometime... But like i said, understandable.

Pity U_U

 

[Chrono_Tata]

True, but to be fair M bang would be way easier to update as the actual animation would go unchanged, its just the sword graphics that would need to be updated.

M Bang has like 5 different sword animations that would need to be updated, so it's really not that trivial.

 

[LalitoTV]

M Bang has like 5 different sword animations that would need to be updated, so it's really not that trivial.

Sure, there are 5 animations, each consisting of 2 or 3 frames, but i don't think there would even be a need to redraw them!
Just resizing them a tiny bit could work i think, as these are not "characters" per se, they don't really look that off when slightly squashed.

I understand that this is still too much to ask, though, given how the team is busy with more important stuff, this was just a small proposition/idea.

 

[Will]

This would happen when you get hit by a projectile, which is still used when running away, so I elected not to do that.


No, sorry. There's other examples of hitboxes being shorter than the art that are bigger offenders than M Bang imo.

View attachment 17319

Also, the patch is live on PS4 and Xbox One as of about an hour ago, changes are done for now.

Quick question. I would like to state beforehand that this isn't a big deal by any means but I figured I'd bring this to your attention just in case this does happen to be a potential bug. I'd also like to mention that this is specifically for Marie color palette #21, I'm not sure if this is an issue for Maries other color palettes. Anyways, I was messing around with some taunt stuff for Marie and I noticed the color of her 236P (Hop to it) special doesn't change green anymore after she taunts which was supposed to be a reference to George the 13th which was really cool. Is this a bug or was it intentionally removed? If it was removed intentionally, is there a particular reason why? It was never mentioned in any of the patch notes after the balance patch update as far as I remember. If it was and I missed it, I apologize for bringing this up.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Sure, there are 5 animations, each consisting of 2 or 3 frames, but i don't think there would even be a need to redraw them!
Just resizing them a tiny bit could work i think, as these are not "characters" per se, they don't really look that off when slightly squashed.

I understand that this is still too much to ask, though, given how the team is busy with more important stuff, this was just a small proposition/idea.

You've been told no twice now; probably best to let it go for the time being. It isn't as trivial as modifying a single sprite in mspaint.

 

[Phantasms]

Hey, This sentiment has probably already been said but I think dahlia should be able to get empower off dead bodies and segment should be able to bite them for blood again. These were cool interactions and made you want to route some combos to get this. I do want to point out that umbrella can get pips off dead bodies and I'm not asking for that to be removed but all other resource type characters get to get there resource when they kill a character. Val gets at least a vile, beo gets some hype, squig gets a charge, robo gets heads, and some characters can get a taunt like band and Marie depending on the KO. Dahlia does get a reload as well I'm not saying she gets noting off it but I don't really remember people complaining to much when dead body empower or bite were in the game. Also giving these back to Dahlia and Eliza would make them choose on some situations if they want to dead body snap to get a specific character in, corner carry for position, or get resource which is even more options that a player has. This probably won't change but it's just my thoughts on the matter.

Also while I'm at it Marie's taunt should have its old recovery speed back. Nerfing the bunnies to 3 hops is plenty to tone it down i don't see why the taunt has to be longer as well. Plus the 70% scaling on m/h haymakers and heavy go round seem like a bit much. While i would rather it not have any scaling i think 80%-85% is probably a good compromise. Also her heavy go round having one hit of armor doesn't feel good cause it breaks all the time. It's supposed to catch people for mashing but I've had it gotten beat so may times. It's already not safe on block but back when it had 2 hits of armor it still felt a lot better. People complain that Marie is up up and away but like how is she going to pressure you when her block strings are extremely weak to getting push block cancelled and even when she does get in unless she has meter her damage isn't that great and her defensive options aren't there either. Her pre-hit mix is very predictable and her post hit is low damage. Honestly i just want Marie to feel better like she is the skullgirl and while i don't consider her the worst character in the game there are just things here and there that don't make her live to that title of skullgirl. Without overhauling her entire kit just making some changes here and there would make her better. Make her ground acceleration a little bit better, make her command grab faster, make her not scale stuff so much, give her more defensive options. You don't have to do all these things but if you don't want players to go up up and away with her then give her tools and reasons to go in. I really like Marie and whether she gets some changes or not i will still have fun playing her but she feels like a safe character. I understand not wanting another release Annie or Umbrella after she was figured out but i like this game having a high character power level and I'm sure other can agree.

 

[Vergil in a chair]

This would happen when you get hit by a projectile, which is still used when running away, so I elected not to do that.


No, sorry. There's other examples of hitboxes being shorter than the art that are bigger offenders than M Bang imo.

View attachment 17319

Also, the patch is live on PS4 and Xbox One as of about an hour ago, changes are done for now.

Doesn't the game already can tell when someone is by projectile? The nerfs killed neutral use of doily because of recovery frames after teleport. Dahlia already struggled with zonning, and gutting the neutral because of one Bella's struggling doesn't seem much fair. Considering doily change affected much more MU's for Dahlia.

Also can we see the match in question that was a reason for so drastic nerfs? I understand that it was send in private, but getting full transparency over it would be appriciated.

 

[Xyned]

Is there a chance the nerf to dahlia's tag in could be reverted, since the reasons for it to be nerfed is gone? (3 hit ice shot). I want to be able to experiment with the teamplay uses of special bullets and I feel like that nerf really took that away.

 

[Idiothead]

I know the issue of "1 grind salt grinder at the tip of rav" but we physically can't do that anymore. i think having rush be the only eating move that wont put you completely in satiated is the ideal way to go as you can only combo into it once without meter, and it gives her an ideal ravenous combo and/or reset point. it's also basically useless at this point as a combo tool since you can use both tongue twister and salt grinder which do way more damage. maybe even make hunger drain faster every time you refill in ravenous so it still feels like a danger mode but not one you're not allowed to play in even if you're right. i dont think a ravenous game plan is something to be scared of for the longevity of the game, just like an overstuffed gameplan isnt. different people are going to lean towards one or another and finding the different gameplans to come out of that is really cool! i feel like encouraging different state play can only be healthy for the character. the 2mp change would also make Way more sense if this change was implemented as gutting the pre hit of a character that has to hit you or die feels like the wrong way to go about the mode.

Hey, bad/casual umbrella player here, just got my hands on new umby after some pc troubles and i just wanted to chime in to say that i really miss old hunger management. understand that balance patches arent on the table right now, but hunger management was half the reason for me to play her. while i understand that rav was/might still end up being a problem, (or OS) i really love the idea of granularly changing your routing/neutral to use more/less punch normals or grabs or bubbles, and having multiple different gameplans you might have to work towards based on how that goes. all this to say i pretty much agree with everything oddberry said, but if the health of the game demands that umbrella is a little less weird, then so be it.

 

[Xillow]

I know the beta period is over, but would it be possible to test what Umbrella would be like if Satiated's 5 pips were at the bottom end of the hunger bar and Ravenous was placed between Satiated and Overstuffed.

I feel like the Umbrella changes were good but somewhat missed the mark only because hunger draining to ravenous promotes a playstyle where it puts both players on a timer. Once when Umbrella is placed in the point position and again once Umbrella is in ravenous. Players largely are prompted to either get to Umbrella before she hits the state or run away from Umbrella after she hits the state. A change like this would possibly require umbrella to regain access to her L Bubble gaining hunger and losing hunger when using certain moves, but it would change the play pattern to one that promotes interaction.

It would also make it so managing hunger becomes something players need to actively consider.

It could still fit her hunger related thematic without changing anything as ravenous is either heavily needing food or is greedy for food.

Edit: The only other suggestions I would add to this is the following. Increasing Hunger Drain in Ravenous and Decreasing Hunger Drain in Overstuffed, Lowering the starting hunger to 1 or 2 pips, and possibly getting rid of Starving if it makes Zoners too strong against her.

Edit 2: It would also make her in my opinion easier to balance

 

[Darklightjg1]

Can you force Peacock to set down a "doily" before she's allowed to teleport as well?

...Anyway, has it ever been experimented with for undizzy to trigger a "spin out" style knockdown (similar to the way it behaves in Marvel vs Capcom 2) instead of a green burst? Kind of hard to keep track of that bar not going down at reset attempts (or still being active on an incoming character), and also try to remember a bnb that won't trigger IPS when opening up an opponent and keep track of my own super meter at the same time.

 

[Xillow]

One more thing to consider testing if character balancing comes around again, this time related to Fukua. What if clones used meter as the resource rather than health and more meter building was added into kit?

Clones would cost a flat amount of meter upfront and meter would be lost at a constant rate if the clones are held. The flat amount of meter would be the same amount of meter given for hitting the opponent with the clone. This would allow clones to be used in neutral at the cost of meter while also allowing their place in combos to be net zero for meter gain. This could also allow adjustments to meter gain in other areas of the kit whether it's on normals or specials like Love Dart or her Command Grabs.

A change like this could land Fukua in a position where players don't feel as if the risk reward of using a portion of her kit is too shifted in the risk direction. It would also add to her current identity as a lower damage high support character.

 

[Ikkisoad]

One more thing to consider testing if character balancing comes around again, this time related to Fukua. What if clones used meter as the resource rather than health and more meter building was added into kit?

We have seen how bad that concept is for a character, twice.

 

[Xillow]

We have seen how bad that concept is for a character, twice.

Eliza and Annie's functioned the same way with little fine control over it since they were modes that were directly tied to their prolonged use. My suggestion for Fukua only chews through meter if clones are used in neutral and would ideally be meter positive in combos assuming meter gain buffs properly offset for held clones in combos.

Using meter as a non-super resource fails imo when a character has no meaningful ways to recover it as fast as it's spent.

 

[Ikkisoad]

Giving her more meter build would just make her get to build more meter, that wouldn't make Fukua players spend meter for held shadows in neutral, meter is a reaaaaaally strong resource in this game and using it just to complement the neutral game of a character that already has good neutral is not a strong incentive.

She already got the health regen buff, which is cool. It is also fine for characters to have downsides imo.