Umbrella Alpha Gameplay Discussion Thread

[nope.avi]

Ah good catch, this likely got adjusted in the refactor for removing puddle stacking - I'm cool with leaving it. Best place for 5MK puddle splash is early for a Tongue Twister combo usually where it wouldn't be adding Undizzy anyway.

Speaking of Puddle stacking, this served as an indirect nerf to sMK and cMK puddle stomps in favor of just doing puddle loops, as it takes one MK to lose a whole stack of them for only the damage value of one, but you can get the value of each individual puddle through slurp. In addition, since when was the Puddle stacking even moderately powerful? If anything, it was inconvenient as it ramped up Undizzy to high hell. Having stacked puddles deal the damage without ruining your Undizzy would make it interesting to set up potent kill puddles in the corner on incoming.

While I'm talking about puddles, why does Umbrella's setplay just disappear over time, allowing the opponent to already use the neutral counterplay of "wait and cheap umbrella out" due to her awful anti air options? Taking up the time to set up puddle only to have it just as quickly go away makes it more of an opportunistic option than anything. Perhaps either increasing the puddle timer or, hell, letting small bubbles from Ptooie or even UtW (maybe UtW gets adjusted in turn) would make them far more present.

Wish Maker

Wish Maker is not going to ignore projectiles and assist characters and stick around when Umbrella gets hit. I can see it doing one (1) of those things, but it's not going to do everything again. Cutie Ptooie (L Bubble) is the insurance bubble while point now, they need different uses.

See, the crazy thing about when it had both properties is that
A: it still had counterplay (it takes forever to send out and additionally gives Umbrella a huge vertical deadzone.)
and
B: still didn't save Umbrella from suffering from the issues that she did
makes you wonder whether it really needed to lose that function. It's a hitgrab, so it already ruins Umbrella's damage if it lands due to scaling. Preferably I'd have the option to let it stick around it exchange for projectile vulnerability, but then WIsh Maker is effectively dead as an assist and useless against zoners, which were already her worst matchup due to her awful mobility and lacking aerial counterplay. Also, this doesn't address why Bobblin' needed to disappear on hit, too. Having ALL 3 bubbles be insurance would be the best, rather than just funneling usage into one.

In addition, as already seen, L Bubble is hardly insurance given its arc and short hitstun in any mode beside Overstuffed. The sentiment that Bubble fills that position now at all is questionable at best. Right now, it just fills the function that it did before as an Air Control/Anti Air Bubble, just now it isn't completely useless due to its going away on hit and forcing you to gain hunger.
Worsening Umbrella's bubble neutral only pushes her more into Ravenous only gameplay, as it's the only mode where she doesn't have slow buttons and mediocre pressure. Even giving back her old damage doesn't make her Satiated and Overstuffed neutral much more appealing beyond a tick throw reset after landing a hit that BEGAN in Ravenous.

Salt Grinder & Salt Grinder Assist

With a slight damage reduction, Satiated scaling penalty could stand to be removed and assist functionality could be closer to what it was before (Overstuffed scaling is staying). Such a damage change could make room for slight Overstuffed damage boosts, and I'm not concerned if Ravenous damage is lowered as a result since that state has enough going for it already. Satiated would also be more flexible for entering into Overstuffed without the damage penalty, which reduces the perceived feeling of being shoehorned into Ravenous.

Tongue Twister having Satiated scaling removed would also alleviate the current "Just Play Ravenous" gameplay. Just Salt Grinder doesn't solve it, as landing a sneaky command grab or tick throw is a big part of Umbrella's neutral.

There may be misunderstanding about the change. The change was nerfing the actual active frames on the first bite that performs and starts the throw from 5F (oversight and insane for a hitgrab which cannot trade and is a giant ball of hitboxes) to, not that.

This Salt Grinder change also simultaneously screwed with jHP timings in combos. I had also very seldom landed a raw Salt Grinder that wasn't an input accident. Getting hit by raw Salt Grinder is probably your own fault, given how minus it is and how you are unable to super cancel.

 

[winnie]

On the other Winnie just posted a combo doing 8K midscreen meterless from 2LK via Overstuffed damage. That's extremely high and it's EARLY days for her combo routing. I can't responsibly push Overstuffed damage further without her adjusting damage elsewhere. That could happen, but I'm not adding another 1K damage to her combos for no reason without doing anything else. (... and people may not like that "something else")

So after posting this take I did some research on there character damage. Specifically BB as he can get similar damage to max sale grinder combos without having to set up a hunger mechanic. So to clarify I don't think Umbrella needs higher max damage I think she need more incentive to go for max salt grinder damage. If it was easier to get max SG then this would be a mute point but currently I feel whenever you can get max SG you might as well just go to Rav instead (unless you know the combo will kill). What I'm really looking for is more reward for going overstuffed when you already have over 50% hunger. Whether that is a damage increase to early SG hits(but not total damage increase) or something else doesn't matter.

The wishmaker one or the other makes sense. I would prefer it passes through, if it goes away when she gets hit that is fine.

Last thing is the OS zoning. Because sometimes you will end Salt grinder at like 9.6(1 from max can't remember how many ticks there are) using H bubble before L bubble can put you in yellow before the L bubble. Honestly it's probably something I just need to be more aware of but given the low power of her zoning to begin with it can feel a little counter intuitive.

 

[RemiKz]

Mostly QoL suggestions

- I think shaving off 1 or 2 frames of startup from 6LP would make it a lot more reliable of an anti-air

- Would it be possible to make Slurp n Slide detect puddles from a tiny bit further? A lot of times I'll be standing directly center of a puddle and doing 5HP > SnS moves me just forward enough for the puddle to not kick in.

- It can be hard to catch a falling opponent with 5MP because of the forward momentum moving you past them. Maybe have a 44MP input cause her to do MP in place? This way it doesn't mess with people wanting the forward momentum from 5MP while holding a charge.

- Reduced active frames on Salt Grinder made jHP > Salt Grinder miss on Parasol in corner if you are jumping forward so you either have to neutral jump or delay Salt Grinder. Not a huge deal since there's a fix players can do but yeah.

 

[Liam]

Another update for Umbrella is live, and this is one of the final ones, so drastic changes won't be considered for this cycle. Keep that in mind when discussing anything critical.

Skullgirls 2nd Encore - Beta Mode Update [2022-03-23] - Steam News

Hello, Liam here. Today's update is one of the final beta mode updates as everything begins to be finalized for release on PS4. THE BOARDWALK Umbrella's stage has been updated with a brand new look, complete with new animations and NPCs - check it out! VISUALS Fixed a bug where glows from...

store.steampowered.com

 

[tristePinguino]

I do know know if this has been mentioned before, but characters to not respond to Umbrella's ground recovery dialogue in battle (not even Umbrella herself). As in, if she techs from knockdown, her accompanying voice-lines will play, but the opponent does not answer. Even after this newest patch.
My apologies, I have no video evidence to provide.

Edit: This is regardless of whether or not the Voice Pack is enabled.

 

[Liam]

I do know know if this has been mentioned before, but characters to not respond to Umbrella's ground recovery dialogue in battle (not even Umbrella herself). As in, if she techs from knockdown, her accompanying voice-lines will play, but the opponent does not answer. Even after this newest patch.
My apologies, I have no video evidence to provide.

Hm, I'm not able to reproduce this.

- Valentine sweeps Umbrella
- She techs
- "No, Hungern!" (From Umbrella)
- "That'l heal..." (From Valentine)

Do note that characters will not respond to themselves if they're in a mirror match!

 

[winnie]

I'm not going to have much time to test the Umbrella changes so in hopes of not running out of time before the PS4 patch I'll say my last few thoughts on the character from the 30 min testing I did last night.

Moving the damage away from salt grinder and into overstuffed specials feels like the right call. You still get reward for full SG hits but it doesn't feel as necessary for making overstuffed useful. I really like this.

Wishmaker compromise is 50/50 like dislike for me. I like that it is much more useful on point helping Umbrella pressure the opponent from a distance and forcing them to make a decision to press forward or back off and can no longer just call assist to remove the bubble. What I don't like (and this is really the only thing) is that as an assist wishmaker no longer gives you any counter play against Beam or Brass. Before you could let Umbrella take the hit from beam or brass and as long as the bubble was out the opponent couldn't push the advantage these assists would normally give you. This was by no means a clean counter but it did add a new level of depth to the assist pool that I feel this game desperately needs. I'm in the camp of "we need more assist that can compete with beam brass" and I felt like wishmaker was a good for this so I'll be sad to see it stay this way but if it's seen as too powerful in it's original form so be it.

Overall I think Umbrella is in a good spot for the PS4 release. She is fun and has a lot more potential still to be discovered. She has some easy to spot weaknesses as well which is a good thing just in case we end up finding something that seems really strong 2 months from now. I'm looking forward to the final release so I can start to put together the massive combo list Umbrella will undoubtedly have thanks to her insanely versatile combo tools.

 

[dekillsage]

I like this version of Umbrella more. Assists not being dog is the way.

I think wish maker can still do everything for the one time, but this is better outside of what Winnie wrote about it being an assist.

From playing her today J.HP into Salt Grinder keeps whiffing where it didn't before. I think having to adjust timings is fine for the SG veteran, but for new players this is a huge pain.

 

[acfan]

From playing her today J.HP into Salt Grinder keeps whiffing where it didn't before. I think having to adjust timings is fine for the SG veteran, but for new players this is a huge pain.

Seconding this part, it feels very weird now.

There may be misunderstanding about the change. The change was nerfing the actual active frames on the first bite that performs and starts the throw from 5F (oversight and insane for a hitgrab which cannot trade and is a giant ball of hitboxes) to, not that.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[winnie]

So I was playing some sets against Peacock/Robo and are we really going to ship this character out with no real answers to zoning? This has been a thing since her movement was implemented and I had hoped one of her tools would address this problem back then but they don't. I'm going to do a quick analysis of why this character doesn't get to play in these 2 match ups and why her "anti zoning tools" don't work. If I'm missing something let me know but I ask all of you to play the Peacock/Robo mu and tell me what you think.

Stand HP reflect: This tool is a really cool and fun idea in concept but fails to really do anything to these zoners. It does nothing against Robo and Peacock puts way to many things on screen for the reflect of one little projectile to matter. Maybe giving it projectile invuln/armor would help here but at the same time neither help change the fact that she has no way to follow up on a gap in projectile spam.

Reflect super: Simply put this super is a waist of meter in neutral against these two characters. If you use the close versions Peacock can still zone with item drop and use it to wait out the super while Robo can still use beams and wait till you try and throw the eyes to jump them and go back to zoning. If you use the far version best case scenario they get hit by it take a little damage and then you don't have enough time to run up and hit them so you get to close the distance and that's about it. Even if they get the eyes on them both characters have a way to get in a position where Umbrella cant capitalize on the eyes exploding. This super feels balance around Para zoning not 4 projectile patterns and beam zoning.

Tongue twister: This move will only work on Peacock and will never work on Robo unless the Robo advances twords you for some reason. Even then it will is very difficult to hit Peacock because it is only fast enough from about mid screen to grab her before any of her projectiles stop you. This move is fine as a bonus to other anti zoning tools but doesn't compliment any of her other tools. If 5HP worked to cause a longer gap then it would be great but it's just not enough at the moment.

All bubble moves: They are too slow. They are so slow you almost always get hit by something trying to use any bubble. This makes H bubble useless L bubble doesn't really threaten someone running away from you and M Bubble doest close in fast enough for the damage you suffer for using it to be with it. Maybe with a strong assist or a button that could pop M bubble while under projectile pressure would help but the bubble still probably won't be in range to hit so that wouldn't really change anything.

No ability to avoid projectiles: Umbrella has pretty slow movement making it hard to catch up the the other characters and even follow up on some of her own tools like her reflect super. This along with a pretty wide hurtbox makes avoiding a Peacock pattern or closing the gap on Robo incredible difficult. There is no way to fix this without completely changing her design. What I feel she lacks compared to the other characters with similar issues is a way to force her way in even if it comes with some kind of cause like BB brass being unsafe or Bella reflect not always getting you in for free but also not being punishable after the reflect. I don't mind Umbrella being bad against zoners but right now she barely gets to even play against them.

What do we do about this problem? Hopefully not too much. I think if you buff you current anti zoning tools to fight off a SG zoner and not Ryu from streets she will be fine. The mu will probably always be in the zoners favor due to her movement alone. Unless we over toon her kit somehow it will all be fine. Probably.

 

[Calexe]

I think Umbrella having a hellday against Robo is okay due to her lack of movement tools, it's her weakness so it's fair.

I think it's okay to suggest some QoL (for example, her Reflector having auto-correcting) but some other moves are too niche to use (sHP), but sometimes, they are enough.

But theres 2 things I'm salty about:
1. sHP is wayyy too niche, you can't even reflect L Napalm Shot (which is slow) because the reflection hitbox isnt tall enough (and maybe the reflection active frames are not enough if the projectile is somewhat close)

2. Tongue Twister projectile collision is also way too low, you can't even force a trade with some projectiles because it's too low.

But, I'm just salty, Umbrella is strong enough, overall, she's in a good spot and I'll be fine with this weakness.

 

[RemiKz]

I've been having a lot of matches where my first hit of 2HP connects but the opponent blocks the second hit

I'm not 100% sure what is causing this because I can't replicate it intentionally in training mode but I seem to have it happen a lot against squigly and bigband

1. sHP is wayyy too niche, you can't even reflect L Napalm Shot (which is slow) because the reflection hitbox isnt tall enough (and maybe the reflection active frames are not enough if the projectile is somewhat close)

That's odd because I was able to reflect L Napalm Shot pretty consistently during a set I was playing.

 

[nope.avi]

1. sHP is wayyy too niche, you can't even reflect L Napalm Shot (which is slow) because the reflection hitbox isnt tall enough (and maybe the reflection active frames are not enough if the projectile is somewhat close)

I've tried my best to use sHP, and a lotta times its just best to do it in ravenous so its easier to get the timing. I wish it had proj invuln so the timing and spacing was less strict, but whatever. Also in Rav you get reflect -> slurp conversions, so that's cool. (Unfortunate that yet another tool funnels Umbrella toward a Ravenous playstyle)

With regard to her being an "anti-zoner" that gets zoned to hell and back:
Literally just give slurp n slide projectile invuln. It seems like that might be crazy, but it seriously would be a nice option to have in a way that works like Eliza cHK. It would still need puddles to be effective at full screen, too, so it wouldn't be the end-all answer for the zoning issue. It would at least make zoners have to even respect Umbrella's presence, and any physical assist or well timed reversal would still allow counterplay.

Also, the fact that her bubbles beside L go away on hit make it so much harder to deal with zoners. At least in the past when you created enough space a M bubble jump was possible, or an overstuffed wish maker forced them to stop, but any bubble besides L you throw is almost certain to disappear immediately. If we're committing to the bubbles going away on hit (for whatever reason I honestly do not get), at least don't let projectile hits have them disappear too (a similar thing to retina).

 

[Lawnalog]

If we're committing to the bubbles going away on hit (for whatever reason I honestly do not get), at least don't let projectile hits have them disappear too (a similar thing to retina).

I honestly feel that even with the m bubble having faster startup now (along with other buffs to some of her stuff) still feel that M and H bubble aren't strong enough to warrant them going away when Umbrella gets hit and makes playing/fighting her a whole lot less interesting over all imo.

 

[Silktail]

i think medium bubble is a good tool but for it to fill its niche i think it should kindof behave more like robo mine

once the bubbles abtually start tracking an enemy they should finish their popping animation regaurdless of umbrella getting hit

ive also run into several issues with the bubble not tracking properly

maybe making the first active frame bigger if they arent blocking on that frame, idk i know this game is very animation driven so tracking is likely very hard

her command grab is extremely strong but good players play around it really well bc many of her other pressure options are lacking(outside of ravenous)

I think first off making the ground hit of jhp in satiated and ravenous hit crossup aswell

it pretty consistently misses and kills ur crossup confirms if u get that button in the nooch and its core to her kit

the float on jmk definately forces u into the fall way too fast

i think the drop move should be a command normal that u can perform after jmk, making it entirely optional(u could maybe even make it its own command normal on its own this move sucks lowkey)

i think her jlk is an insane button but is really inconsistent to convert off of at certain heights due to fastfall and tough linking. if the button moved u up a little bit(more?) to counteract the down in the recovery frames this might be alleviated


the point of umbrellas kit is to make u eat strike throw mixups while under pressure but if the pressure ends in 2-3 hits (even with setup) then u end up with the beowulf situation. Where we find one(1) vortex that has like 4 options and just gamble with big band in the back.

overall, umbrellas development spot reminds me of 2015 robo, but backwards. robos combo game was undersupported and her neutral was the solid part

now i feel that the on hit interactions are mostly complete, its pre hit that needs much tuning

 

[Silktail]

i think this was a hasty way to address this

it completely SHOT umbrellas ability to get hungry by looping bubbles which is an effective dmg nerf over the course of any amount of resets

i think being able to morph ur state on hit for decent ish damage is fair and right now this chage took that out when it was previously in.

if u want us to manage let us manage mid combo as a reward for getting a hit but dont dhoot us in the foot for doing so

 

[Silktail]

if should also be noted that ravenous playstyles put u in ranges that make her normal gameplay with bubbles unsafe and deadly. It makes Ravenous feel like a sidegrade with regaurds to pressure when it should be an upgrade, u simply go from alright mid range pressure to railroaded(but better numerically) close range pressure, since ravenous only buffs a few of ur options. and it disincentivises properly using the rest of the character. this would be fine if either gameplan didnt have such abusable weaknesses

the problem with the bubbles not working at close range is that i need to use them to go in/enhance my pressure/drain my hunger bar but that means i have to zone my opponent to go in

AND if i get hit i did it all for less reward bc i lose all bubble presence and pressure, AND ive gotten less close to ravenous bc of the changes.

if u want this character to be usable at a high level like all the characters in this game are she needs agency not numbers. things like more control over her hunger bar, her position on screen, thier position on screen, more time to act with the bubble out generally.

this character is more exploitable in the neutral than bella(which would be alright if she had more loopable and applyable pressure once she gets in), and needs to use a super or a heavy to access reflect on top of having no arial redirections outside of sliding 2lk, jmk, and jlk.(overstuffed jhp is only for funny resets)

tldr; she needs to be a bit more sticky i think. and have less quirks to her buttons that delegate them as combo only tools

 

[Silktail]

imo a change that could help her out alot is if all her ground buttons that dont consume puddles to be able to slide while dashing like 2lk if they are performed over a puddle. Its really thematic and helps her capitalize off the opponent waiting out her advantage id she get the ability to bubble

i also think that since its so much easier to consume puddles for no value with the mk button and slurp n slide the puddle limit is a little obscene. My character struggles in neutral so py not let me build up more microadvantages. there were already exceptions to keep us from damage stacking (which was fun to lab) and nerfed us in return. Im not asking for compensation in the form of power but this was a direct nerf to how she played neutral in response to a combo bug that got FIXED.

another change that could help out a little bit is having options to fight back in overstuffed. Something like armor on slurp and slide could be cool, increased invulnerability on her falling moves(shk, and jmk 3? 2? the part where she falls)

I also think that slurp n slide could stand to have both its recovery frams and its hitstun and blockstun reduced uniformly, as it sits it trades very poorly outside ravenous and it is super easy to pushblock in neutral, if doing it with an assist it is practically an invite to get your team blasted. NOT AT ALL the approach tool that is promised on the cover.

 

[winnie]

Time for another Umbrella thought dumb because I'm starting to see her true potential (maybe).

Let's do a pro/con too keep myself a little more organized.

PRO:
Reward for hunger management feels great. The damage change to Salt Grinder gives her pretty average damage with almost full yellow bar and a sizable 1-2k damage bump with full hits of Salt Grinder. To me this feels good as the reward for full hits is significant without being too powerful and she doesn't suffer too much without going for full hits. The ravenous game is also very strong and has it's own strengths and weaknesses that feel worth the effort to use.

Neutral game is solid (most of the time). I won't go into to much detail but almost all of her specials have a use in neutral and her medium buttons on very strong at closing the gap. Pretty much everything she does has some risk reward to it and that's pretty fun to me.

CON:
I'll start by saying these cons are not things that need to be completely removed. I believe that fighting game characters are more interesting when they have strengths and weaknesses not just one or the other. That being said Umbrella has a few big weaknesses that make her feel useless in some cases.

Her ani-zoning tool don't function against a SG level zoner. They are pretty strong against normal zoning like Val or Para but get overwhelmed by the high power zoners of Peacock and Robo. I don't know if there is a way to fix this without turning Umbrella into a defensive powerhouse that never needs to approach but in her current state these zoners make Umbrella feel like dead weight.

I don't know why her flash kick is throwable. I get that is really good being an unblockable on rising full combo hit grab but if it doesn't work they get a full jump in counter hit combo. I feel it would have been better to increase damage scaling on a raw hit than make the reversal worse than it already is. Reversals in SG have always been really powerful making it feel like Umbrella is missing out on a common defensive option. Her overall defensive options are not that strong to begin with so giving her a true invuln reversal shouldn't be too powerful.

This last one is more of a personal problem but overall hunger management is pretty difficult to utilize in the heat of a match. Sometimes it feels like the extra brain power needed to use the hunger mechanic is not with the reward you get from it. This personally has to do with how the hunger drains over time making it hard to tell where you are on the hunger levels until you have a moment to think (like during a combo). I think it would have been interesting if we tried a build where hunger is static and only changes when Umbrella influences it (when her punch moves connect or when a special move is used) but it's probably too late for that at this point. This is a point I would love to hear there's opinions on as it's a big change.



I really can't keep things short can I? So thanks for reading and let me know what you think.

 

[Silktail]

Time for another Umbrella thought dumb because I'm starting to see her true potential (maybe).

Let's do a pro/con too keep myself a little more organized.

PRO:
Reward for hunger management feels great. The damage change to Salt Grinder gives her pretty average damage with almost full yellow bar and a sizable 1-2k damage bump with full hits of Salt Grinder. To me this feels good as the reward for full hits is significant without being too powerful and she doesn't suffer too much without going for full hits. The ravenous game is also very strong and has it's own strengths and weaknesses that feel worth the effort to use.

Neutral game is solid (most of the time). I won't go into to much detail but almost all of her specials have a use in neutral and her medium buttons on very strong at closing the gap. Pretty much everything she does has some risk reward to it and that's pretty fun to me.

CON:
I'll start by saying these cons are not things that need to be completely removed. I believe that fighting game characters are more interesting when they have strengths and weaknesses not just one or the other. That being said Umbrella has a few big weaknesses that make her feel useless in some cases.

Her ani-zoning tool don't function against a SG level zoner. They are pretty strong against normal zoning like Val or Para but get overwhelmed by the high power zoners of Peacock and Robo. I don't know if there is a way to fix this without turning Umbrella into a defensive powerhouse that never needs to approach but in her current state these zoners make Umbrella feel like dead weight.

I don't know why her flash kick is throwable. I get that is really good being an unblockable on rising full combo hit grab but if it doesn't work they get a full jump in counter hit combo. I feel it would have been better to increase damage scaling on a raw hit than make the reversal worse than it already is. Reversals in SG have always been really powerful making it feel like Umbrella is missing out on a common defensive option. Her overall defensive options are not that strong to begin with so giving her a true invuln reversal shouldn't be too powerful.

This last one is more of a personal problem but overall hunger management is pretty difficult to utilize in the heat of a match. Sometimes it feels like the extra brain power needed to use the hunger mechanic is not with the reward you get from it. This personally has to do with how the hunger drains over time making it hard to tell where you are on the hunger levels until you have a moment to think (like during a combo). I think it would have been interesting if we tried a build where hunger is static and only changes when Umbrella influences it (when her punch moves connect or when a special move is used) but it's probably too late for that at this point. This is a point I would love to hear there's opinions on as it's a big change.



I really can't keep things short can I? So thanks for reading and let me know what you think.

I second that she needs that reversal option

as it sits, the move only has the unblockable on rising property to keep pressure up if they are in ur face and jumping but the reality is that its so slow and poorly ranged that if they arent pushing a button ur probably getting baited
its definately to early to say this for sure but i think it needs full invuln more than it needs unblock while rising

 

[Calexe]

I'm getting used to throwable DP but the only thing that makes me sad is the lack of explanation, I mean, her DP was not that problematic but still got nerfed and we don't know exacly why.
The same for Wish Maker, it's used to 0 undizzy, 0 damage but 50% scaling and got changed without explanation.

I know since she's in BETA, we don't need a full list of why this and that got changed, but some tools needs to be explained.

And I still think her ravenous multi-hits should build a little more of bar, for a better resource managment other than Salt Grinder/Tongue Twister.

Other than that, she's super solid right now IMO.