I think the problem here is that this is you and practically no one else. There aren't very many people who can really play the same thing that many times, even if there are new levels and shit. And even you, I'm sure, have a breaking point depending on the speed of releases; at some point it's going to get dull, and if you enjoy the same thing longer than most people then that's dandy, but you can't support an entire franchise yourself so you're going to need a couple hundred thousand similar minded people if you ever want this to happen.I honestly disagree. Ghouls and Ghosts should have had 30 sequels in my eyes. Don't care if it didn't change, just give me remixed stages, weapons, etc. and I'll be happy. Give me Gradius 23, Touhou 987, and Contra 20. Innovate if you want, but honestly just give me some new well designed gameplay and stages and You've sold me.
Personally, I've never felt that "fatigue". When I pick up or buy a game, I know what I'm looking for, and if the game provides it I'm happy.
Obviously putting in new mechanics to pretend like you're at least kind of creative is a bad idea.I don't really care about innovation. If I want a grappling hook, give me a grappling hook. If I want combos, give me combos. But what I DON'T want, is something "new" just for the sake of being new. Give me a new mechanic because it's GOOD, not because you need to shoe horn in "innovation" in order to sell me a game that I already want. And what I want right now is fucking Contra 5 and Gradius 6.
I never even talked about the quality of the games. I talked about how something that people loved got iterated until everyone was tired of it. I don't give a fuck if you think it lacks replayability (which is, for the record, up there with "too linear" as one of the most shallow and outright stupid criticisms you can give a game.)The original Mega Man series is a bad example in my eyes because....well they are extremely over-rated. I honestly simply find that the games lack the kind of true intensity, replayability, and depth of a true arcade style action platformer. The X series though improved things imo with a VERY fun movement scheme that made the series uniquely engrossing to me, but I still feel that at the end of the day many of the games suffer from the lack of aforementioned replayability and depth.
You might not have been bored with them, but pretty much everyone else was. With every new game, their profit was a fraction of the last one, and that's why god of whip chain was created in the first place. The entire series from SotN to order of ecclesia was a blur, I think I might have finished one castlevania game in that entire span and I adore metroidvanias.
Somehow I don't think that this is a particularly good mindset.
Do people really still say this?
But never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever say you don't care about innovation. The only thing it's doing is making games better. ALL games. To say that it's not important is to say that we have literally hit the ceiling of how good games of this type can be, and that's stupid because that ceiling doesn't even exist.
I don't know if that was deliberate or not.I seriously hate the term "overrated". It seems like a whine. "I don't like this thing but other people do so I've got to tell them how wrong they are."
However if I were hard-pressed to use it to describe one game out of the thousands to exist, it would be Ocarina of Time. Such a boring-ass turd of software.
one of the main reasons the ouya was supported was because it was an "indie console". there were others, but once I saw that as a reason I immediately responded with "if thats all it has going for it then this thing deserves to fail."What "indie console" ? Ouya? It's meant to just be a more affordable box. Diversity is always good in my opinion.
Not sure whether you mean the term "indie", the cultural "indie" or independent development. Independent Development isn't a fad though, its just a different side of things for a different group of people.
A box that has low barriers of entry and allows new developers to make a start deserves to fail? The Ouya is pretty much the only thing other than PC people like me can realistically target.
Wut? What does MadCatz have to do with indie gaming? Don't they just mostly make controllers?again, I will say, I hate most of the indie demographic. (even though I'm a part of the indie demographic when you think about it)
I like to think that guys like pixel and the people behind katawa shoujo are the better examples of indie devs. and they didnt need an ouya or whatever madcatz is trying to shovel out for 250 bucks.
The problem is that the Ouya is so poorly designed from a hardware and software perspective you might as well stick with producing on android devices. (Heat distribution is terrible on those things, and games are prone to more bugs than I am happy with even with ports of previously bug-free games).
Well, the thing is, I'm really satisfied with how things are. If the gaming industry (well, mainstream anyway) miraculously get rid of hypersexualization and characters of both genders are portrayed as actual characters with depths, then more power to whoever wished for it. I'd still play those newer games but at the same time, I'd be super nostalgic of the good ol' times. It'd just mean I gotta dig underground for games that specifically tickle my fancy.
But all of them have either died or are recent enough that they never reached critical mass. ALL of them. It's pretty well established that a series has to change it up at least a little to sustain itself, no matter how insanely popular it is; hell, even call of duty changes up kinda sorta sometimes, and half of the gaming community is waiting for that series to die just like guitar hero did.Is that so? Considering that Mega Man, most fighting games (where "sequel" is more or less a code word for "new characters and a few balance ajustments") and countless other franchises have been making money doing this since the dawn of the medium, I am inclined to believe that simply desiring remixes/extensions of the previous experience (especially when such an experience is focused almost completely on competitive gameplay as most arcade style games, even single player ones, are) is shared by many gamers.
This claim is also doubly ironic considering you originally posted your opinion in an "unpopular opinions thread".
While most are undoubtedly less "hard line" than I am, all I know is that I very much want Gradius VI, and don't care if there aren't any new mechanics. Well designed gameplay is all I'm looking for.
But here's the thing. Games can be good without innovation. But they can never be better than what you already have. You've already experienced what we know how to do, let's try something we don't. And if it's shit we throw it out and try something new.I don't care about innovation. What I care about is games being good. Have you created something that's different than what came before and is good in its own unique way? Good. Have you created something that has a similar gameplay style to something that came before but is good? Good. If it's good, and in line with the style of gameplay that I enjoy, I will play it. But being GOOD and aligned with my interests is what I am primarily looking for. You can be the most innovative game on earth but if it's not good AND not aligned with the gameplay style I am looking for than I honestly don't care and will not play it.
There's no question that the new castlevania games are a sad attempt at grasping for a wider audience with an old IP. They aren't good at all. But the reason they even had to bother changing genres entirely is because the metroidvanias weren't selling anymore. They had done it, and done it, and done it, and each time they were losing a lot of fans without gaining enough to make up for them.I'm not fammiliar with the sales, but fan reaction seems to be exactly the opposite. I haven't seen one Castlevania fan who hasn't expressed desire for a new metroidvania, and in terms of critical reception, each Ds Castlevania was received with higher praise than the last (personally I can't pick my favorite but I actually think Order of Eclessia was the weakest).
I don't think pixel art is obsolete in any way. It's certainly an interesting style, there's a lot of room for cool stuff when you're working with thousands of tiny squares. Of course it's also easy to half-ass it, but I hate that the entirety of pixel art gets a bad rap because of the shitty stuff. Obligatory sword and sworcery image as example:
If independent publishing is a fad then the industry is fucked.
If you're seriously doubting your own beliefs system, though, don't just sit on the present because you're content with it. You're being ignorant of your own psyche. That's bad.Well, the thing is, I'm really satisfied with how things are. If the gaming industry (well, mainstream anyway) miraculously get rid of hypersexualization and characters of both genders are portrayed as actual characters with depths, then more power to whoever wished for it. I'd still play those newer games but at the same time, I'd be super nostalgic of the good ol' times. It'd just mean I gotta dig underground for games that specifically tickle my fancy.
Mmm, sorry. I don't get it.
Megaman classic nearly died in the 90's because they made too many nes sequels and gameboy games. From the NES era alone you had to have 100's of hours of megaman games, and people were getting tired of the same thing, so they made megaman X. They slowed way down after that, you'll notice, only making 3 X games that generation and making only one classic megaman game. After that they kept trying to release megaman on the ps1, but they just weren't selling much, and they stopped. That was the first death of megaman, and it had everything to do with people getting tired of megaman games. Megaman 10 was arguably more about just being a lackluster game than fatigue, of course, but that's not really what I'm talking about.As far as I know, Mega Man didn't die because it was no longer making money. Capcom just dropped the ball. And on the topic of Capcom, let's not forget Street Fighter is still going strong. And how about every franchise Nintendo has ever made? Pokemon? Mario? Legend of Zelda? Yes there's some change ups to the formula now and than, and in the transition from 2d to 3d there has been some definite innovation, but people still enjoy paying money to Nintendo every few years for what is basically (and usually) the same experience.
Now, I feel for one to to say "very few games should go beyond 3 installments" is a very close minded statement that does not take into account certain genres or gameplay experiences. As I said in my first post, it depends HEAVILY on the type of game. A fighting game could take no less than 5 or 6 revisions and re-releases before everything is "just right" and it becomes the classic it was meant to be. Arcade style and competitive games (which includes single player games: scoring in shmups, speed running platformers, etc.) can benefit VASTLY from the amount of variety that a large number of installments can offer, as it gives people more options in finding the game with a playstyle and design that truly suits and appeals to them. There are of course a large number of other franchises that can benefit vastly from this, but this is just off the top of my head.
Honestly, it wasn't really having BIG quality drops. I have no doubt that if megaman 6 had dropped earlier people would have been fine with it. It's just that it came super late, and everything it did had been done. There were no really new tricks, there was just more nes megaman... and that doesn't make it a terrible game, but it doesn't make it very good either.Also, I should have mentioned this before, but another reason why the original Mega Man series got so "stale" was because the later installments on the nes (5 and 6 in particular, though some would argue 4 counts as well. I would personally disagree on that count) were simply terrible. Repetitive level design, bland boss encounters, and the same flaws as the rest of the series (hit and miss weapons etc.) Even reviewers who usually don't have a mind for the subtleties of level design usually remark that 5 and 6 feel poorly designed in comparison to the rest of the series when played back to back on the anniversary collection.
I personally don't like 8 either because of the sloooooooooooooooooww move speed, but a lot of people seem to like that one.
Anyway the point is that while you could argue that the franchise was getting stale, it also was having very serious quality control issues at the time as well.
I can see where you're coming from, but it's silly to think that they've just found the perfect shmup formula. There are billions of possibilities even in the niche shmup genre, and it's not only possible but pretty likely that some creative person who likes shmups will come up with something new that's just as good or better than what is available.To use another shmup example, let me put it this way:
Eschatos and the rest of Qute Corps games are very innovative. Qute takes the bullet hell genre, usually known for "micro dodging" and fine movement through dense patterns, and instead creates games with dense patterns but a much greater emphasis on extremely high speed movement, enemies with more in depth ai, back to basics scoring systems, and patterns that remain extremely challenging without restricting movement the way most bullet hell patterns do.
Do I like Qute because they are innovative? No. I like them because their playstyle is what I was already looking for in the genre before I even heard of them. When I say I don't care about innovation, I don't mean that I'm against it. I mean that when I go out shopping for games, I'm not making my picks based on what has the newest concepts, but rather what has the concepts that are most aligned my with my play style and interests.
What I want is not for Qute to throw out what they already have for the sake of "innovation" but to continue refining and perfecting it (I don't think the formula or style is perfect yet, I have a few minor complaints) and than churn out as many well designed and varied sequels with that play style as will satisfy a lifetime of competitive score play (which maybe isn't as many as you think since each individual game can take a vast amount of time and dedication to even approach true mastery).
With every sequel that doesn't really introduce anything other than a level pack, the series loses fans. It will definitely lose fans, because not everyone can keep up with it. It then has to pick up and get enough new people to sustain itself. If it fails to do that, it degrades a bit. If it degrades too much, it dies because there aren't enough sales to keep going. The number of people leaving rises exponentially with each sequel that fails to introduce anything.Like, for example, everyone here.
Obviously not enough people to make it the next *INSERT POPULAR FRANCHISE HERE*, but hey, these are already niche genres and franchises we are talking about, designed with a very competitive and dedicated fanbase in mind.
Much like the Castlevania fanbase was happy with Order of Eclessia, the Touhou fanbase is pretty much happy with Touhou 14 (which actually is probably more like Touhou 20 since the spin offs aren't counted in the main series)
There's a pretty silly idea that passes around the internet a lot now that opinions are some innocent pure thing that evil debates devour in an attempt to satisfy their bloodlust.
Megaman classic nearly died in the 90's because they made too many nes sequels and gameboy games. From the NES era alone you had to have 100's of hours of megaman games, and people were getting tired of the same thing, so they made megaman X. They slowed way down after that, you'll notice, only making 3 X games that generation and making only one classic megaman game. After that they kept trying to release megaman on the ps1, but they just weren't selling much, and they stopped. That was the first death of megaman, and it had everything to do with people getting tired of megaman games. Megaman 10 was arguably more about just being a lackluster game than fatigue, of course, but that's not really what I'm talking about.
And you're forgetting that I said that most series shouldn't go past 3 sequels. Many of the games designed in the 80's and 90's dodged a lot of bullets here through minimalistic narrative, among other things, but to talk about the games you played:
Honestly, it wasn't really having BIG quality drops. I have no doubt that if megaman 6 had dropped earlier people would have been fine with it. It's just that it came super late, and everything it did had been done. There were no really new tricks, there was just more nes megaman... and that doesn't make it a terrible game, but it doesn't make it very good either.
I can see where you're coming from, but it's silly to think that they've just found the perfect shmup formula. There are billions of possibilities even in the niche shmup genre, and it's not only possible but pretty likely that some creative person who likes shmups will come up with something new that's just as good or better than what is available.
What I'm trying to say is that, you don't have to specifically buy games because they're innovative, but you should still support those games because they're the only significant method of progress any genre has.
With every sequel that doesn't really introduce anything other than a level pack, the series loses fans. It will definitely lose fans, because not everyone can keep up with it. It then has to pick up and get enough new people to sustain itself. If it fails to do that, it degrades a bit. If it degrades too much, it dies because there aren't enough sales to keep going. The number of people leaving rises exponentially with each sequel that fails to introduce anything.
Remember that "fans" doesn't mean people who go on the forums and talk about the game, fans are the people who consistently buy your product, and a good 90% at least never touch the forums. Fatigue doesn't usually result in a bunch of people hitting the forums for an angry rant either, they just stop getting excited over releases and eventually just stop caring at all until they stop buying them.
Touhou doesn't really have to worry about this though, since economics doesn't really apply to freeware. I can say that I used to follow touhou releases religiously until like 2008, when I slowly got to the point that I just don't care. Now I check up on them like once every 6 months maybe, and if there's a new game I usually play it for like 10-20 minutes and get bored.
Touhou doesn't really have to worry about this though, since economics doesn't really apply to freeware. I can say that I used to follow touhou releases religiously until like 2008, when I slowly got to the point that I just don't care. Now I check up on them like once every 6 months maybe, and if there's a new game I usually play it for like 10-20 minutes and get bored.
This.
My opinion is that 2 + 2 = 5
I'd rather know a game designer worked solo on his game using 8-bit graphics, than find out he exploited a bunch of art students at less than minimum wage for HD graphics.
If you have no budget, and don't want to share the credit, then you'd better work within your means and start plopping down those pixels!
Nothing in particular. Mostly just contracts I've come across from places like Craigslist. There are a lot of people out there that think they can pay an artist $200 with a WFH, and magically get Angry Birds and Spelunky out of the deal. I imagine some of them actually get away with it too.
When you try to pass off something that has a level of fact to it, one way or another as opinion. Slightly related, but also when you give an opinion on something you don't really understand.
I actually tried Killer Instinct at a friends place. As much as I hate the Xbox One, and still deem it an evil box from the evilest minds of evil Microsoft executives that may or may particularly for gaming, but I had a lot of fun with KI. It only had Jago playable, since it was the F2P version, but we had a lot of fun, and the learning curve was significantly less steep, in terms of combos, than most Fighting Games, so within about 15-20 minutes of playing, I managed to get a GOOOODLIKE COMBOOOOO!!!I have one, I didn't instantly dislike Killer Instinct the second it was shown and still haven't formed a proper opinion on it because I haven't been able to play it. People here, even those I respect have been calling it shit from the moment the first footage came out. I try everything, even played Injustice for a couple of weeks.
Actually, apparently mm6 did bad enough that Capcom didn't even want to port it to america. They didn't think it was worth the money. Nintendo had to step in and port it themselves.Mega Man didn't "nearly die" in the 90's. I'm pretty sure it wasn't losing them any money, and it was just another franchise (among many others at the time) that benefitted from additional content and were able to fund that additional content because people kept throwing money at it up until the 6th installment.
It's not generalization, the vast majority of game IP's just can't sustain past 3 sequels. I'm not saying that it can't be done, I'm saying that most developers are doing it in a way that dooms the series to become increasingly stale.No, I've been emphasizing and disagreeing with the "most" part this whole time. While I agree not all franchises should go beyond 3 or so sequels, it's very much a case by case situation and the word "most" is still a sweeping over-generalization.
Also saying something "needs to die" is really not your call to make honestly.
None of these things are my call to make, unless I'm secretly Satoru Iwata. Last time I checked, I was not.
Like I said, fatigue doesn't make anyone angry, it just makes people bored enough to walk away. You aren't going to see a ton of people come out and say "x games suck now!" you're just going to see a number of people stop playing them.Here's where your post starts to annoy me. You're talking about "fatigue", but the fan reaction to most of the newer Mario and Pokemon installments have been overwhelmingly positive. While obviously it's not going to go on "forever", it has already reached what is definitely more than 3 sequels using very similar concepts. And people enjoyed every minute of it. Which certainly goes against this "should" mentality.
When did I say that you thought they were perfect?First: I never said they were perfect. They are still in need of some refining in my opinion, which is another reason why they deserve many sequels. The point is that it's not whether these games are original or not, it's that they did something that I wanted to be done and they did it well. And that furthermore by the nature of the games they benefit from additional content. There are other things I want to be done as well, but those wouldn't nessarily be better or more "perfect" it would just be another style that I am interested in.
I have to say yet again, when did I ever say that they can't make 10 sequels and maintain quality? There are some games that can pull it off. I never denied that. You just have to think about that when you make the first game, otherwise it's going to go shit.This is again, another reason why I have to disagree that "most" games "shouldn't" have more than 3 installments. You gave Street Fighter a pass, but you may not realize that many games (not nessicarily multiplayer! not nessicarily even shmups!) are played with a very similar mindset, and benefit from additional content in much the same way a game like Street Fighter does. Yes, you only said "most" but "most" is still too much of an over-generalization. Like with anything, I don't think there should be some magical rule of what to do and what not to do, it all varies on a case by case basis. Some games are made more fun by 10 installments, some only need 1. Some need 3, some need 5, some need 14. It depends on the game.
"but is it profitable?" again, that's besides the point, as we're talking about what "should" be which isn't always the same as what is profitable. But regardless, many games have made it up to ten or more installments while still making money and receiving praise from fans and critics, and that's far enough above "3" for me.
Actually, I did play touhou for score for a little while. It's half of the reason I got my first arcade stick. I only ever really got anywhere in perfect cherry blossom, and I was still relatively shitty at it, but yes, I understand.That's because you're not going for a lunatic 1cc scoreplay.
You have to understand that shmups and playing for score in them is just as competitive as fighting games. The average person might pick up a fighter and get bored of it after 10 minutes, but the "fans" are the ones playing it for hundreds of hours, and for whom every individual frame data tweak matters immensely to how the game plays and feels. The same is true for shmups; competitive players log hundreds of hours into each Cave game and the subtle differences between each installment (not only in terms of mechanics but level design, boss design, pacing, strategy, variety, etc.) make a WORLD of difference to these people. This is why almost everyone in the shmups community cheers when a new Cave or Touhou game is announced, even after 20 or so shooters. This is also why almost every player has their own top 5 list for the series installments, because the subtle differences in level design tends to appeal to a lot of people differently.
Well there's that. But there's also opinions that are bad because they're damaging.
Mario saw a lot of this in the new super mario bros. games. A ton of people disliked them, and thought they were growing a bit stale. Each one was better than the last, and none of them were bad games, but there wasn't much enthusiasm for them at all. 3D world shook things up enough to win some of them back, and like I said this is a long ways off (and it would probably be less about no more mario games and more about him not dominating the nintendo catalogue) but he's got to slow down at some point.
But you're really undercutting the word "fans." Do you really have to get deeply involved in the competitive aspect and the community to be a fan, or do you only have to be loyal to the series? I believe in the second, but I think you're going with the first. Those people may always be neck deep in these games, even if they release once a month for the next decade or whatever ridiculous launch line-up there is, but the latter still matter and they're not going to keep up.
Look, if you don't think those not involved in the community or whatever parts of a game aren't real fans, whatever. Don't care. It's a vague definition and it doesn't really matter. What matters is whether the not-real-fans are leaving. Because they love the series as much as you do, they just love it for a different reason.