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Double general discussion!

IsaVulpes said:
What's so bad about Parasoul for Double? Princess has garbage mobility so Luger is a bitch to face and any of Shot/Toss/Dive get run over by a car on reaction. I feel this is bad for Parasoul, but uh, maybe I'm missing something?
Well if you use shot it cancels out, and the tear stays on screen
 
IsaVulpes said:
What's so bad about Parasoul for Double? Princess has garbage mobility so Luger is a bitch to face and any of Shot/Toss/Dive get run over by a car on reaction. I feel this is bad for Parasoul, but uh, maybe I'm missing something?

At neutral I would say Double wins against Parasoul the only problem is if you let her push you to the corner you lose but thats almost all of Doubles Match ups so just try and stay out of the corner as much as posable.
 
winnie said:
At neutral I would say Double wins against Parasoul the only problem is if you let her push you to the corner you lose but thats almost all of Doubles Match ups so just try and stay out of the corner as much as posable.

A bit of this.

going head to head with her has a few deadzones you shouldn't be around so it's more of an impact on being an opportunist.

imo.

Sup Winnie, GGs yesterday.
 
Double wins the projectile war but that's pretty much it.

Like parasoul just outspeeds double once she gets in j.lp range, and pressuring double is really easy with j.hk and j.lp to keep her blocking. J.hk beats every reversal other than car iirc, but if you do super jump j.hk that will beat car.
Having to block luger and inch your way forward isn't a big deal vs double, and I don't remember if luger wiffs if parasoul crouches but if it does then just do that.
 
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Even if lp luger will whiff if crouched, mp version is good for hiting crouched characters and Hp good as an anti-air
 
I think its Parasoul.

I think Double only wins at one range, that range being a bit inside full screen where luger will beat out startup of shot and you can play a reactive footsie game with jumping normals.

At any further range Parasoul can send out Egret shield and get her tear momentum going. Any more inside Parasoul owns Double's life with J.Lp, J.hk, and j.hp and her dash/ground normals. (as Sage was mentioning).

Additionally its one of the only MUs where Parasoul has a consistent panic button she can resort to get out of resets. Against Filia/Val/Fortune its hard to get a down charge to attempt to reversal out resets, but against double you always have plenty of time and her reset points are way more obvious. So with 1 bar of meter, I feel like Parasoul can reliably end any Pressure Double starts.

And then on the other side of the coin, I feel like outside of mashing car (which is unideal), Double can't do too much about Parasouls pressure/resets once she is in/has a hit. Even if double blocks a reset, it keeps Parasoul at the optimal range to fuck Double's life. Its really hard for Double to retreat out of Parasouls pressure once she's in due to Parasouls great air grab and normals which easily catch Double out of dash.
 
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dekillsage said:
I don't remember if luger wiffs if parasoul crouches but if it does then just do that.

It does. Big Band is the only character so far that can't crouch an lp luger.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
What stops Double from running you over with a Car for attempting this?

uhh not always having meter?

and even then, unless its going into a DHC, kind of a waste unless it kills because you are giving parasoul the position she wants double to be in, imo. the damage you get out of it isn't really enough to warrant the punish/situation you get you of it in most cases.
 
Its kinda like double vs peacock
In the sense that if double has bar and you do any special move that's a free car. Reaaaally good if you have multiple bars.
Not amazing if you're only stuck with one.

Still a super strong option to have though. No denying that
 
for sure! i just kind of dont like it out of DHC scenarios cuz the damage ain't great and it gives you shit/risky oki.

i am also a firm believer that stuff that costs meter shouldn't be regarded as strong counters in the neutral because the risk/reward of a bait is too costly/don't always have the resources (err except vanilla catheads).
 
GirlyStyle said:
for sure! i just kind of dont like it out of DHC scenarios cuz the damage ain't great and it gives you shit/risky oki.

i am also a firm believer that stuff that costs meter shouldn't be regarded as strong counters in the neutral because the risk/reward of a bait is too costly/don't always have the resources (err except vanilla catheads).

*Shed a single tear*

I agree, if the option to answer has a bar of meter required I can't really consider it stable. although really if I can help it I'd rather not car Parasoul unless I have catheads out. -.-
 
I just don't have much of a use for "You theoretically win the neutral game if both of you have no meter and/or are in a 1v1 situation" when I'm fighting a Double that sits on 2 Bars and has Filia/Painwheel/Whatever in the back.
There I lose fullscreen distance hard as I'm not allowed to do anything due to reaction Car and sort of have to waddle through Lugers which feels a lot harder than it sounds
 
IsaVulpes said:
I just don't have much of a use for "You theoretically win the neutral game if both of you have no meter and/or are in a 1v1 situation" when I'm fighting a Double that sits on 2 Bars and has Filia/Painwheel/Whatever in the back.
There I lose fullscreen distance hard as I'm not allowed to do anything due to reaction Car and sort of have to waddle through Lugers which feels a lot harder than it sounds

but you have absolute use for "theoretical win win i have two+ bars, my team is in the right order/intact/energized to capitalize, and my opponent is to dumb to recognize the potential threat of an obvious super"?

yeah its a thing that can happen that helps double out at the full screen range, but it still situational (although very useful) so therefore its worth looking at all avenues of the neutral game and not just "she can car to win full range zoning"
 
GirlyStyle said:
unless its going into a DHC, kind of a waste


oh don't you worry about that. <3

DbtYGQz.png
 
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Double versus parasoul seems in doubles favor to me. But the matchup is mostly even imho.
 
so how good is flesh step? is it a get out of the corner tool type thing?
 
DeathArcana said:
so how good is flesh step? is it a get out of the corner tool type thing?
tbh you shouldn't really be using flesh step outside of mixups with assists/catheads. It does have a few more situational applications but definitely not in escaping pressure. l bomber/car is better for that kind of thing
 
It's projectile invincible (and only projectile invincible) in the middle between a vulnerable startup and recovery. It's slow and vulnerable enough that you really never see anybody use it to evade projectiles though.
 
So how does one cope in a 1v1 with Squigs?


Kinda getting my hat handed to me by a few familiar faces on the board, as well as some others recently?


Feel like it's an uphill battle but I'm equally one dimensional in terms of strategy.
 
Combo_Knight said:
So how does one cope in a 1v1 with Squigs?
Kinda getting my hat handed to me by a few familiar faces on the board, as well as some others recently?
Feel like it's an uphill battle but I'm equally one dimensional in terms of strategy.
Hey, Combo_Knight! I think we played each other yesterday! I just picked up Squigly with the PSN release, so my experience with her is limited, but here's my take on her: I believe she has a problem with opponents approaching her from the air. All her anti-airs are situational: Rigor Mortis (236LP) and Draugen Punch (623P) have a long start-up, and Center Stage (236MP) into Battle Opera (214KK) requires a lot of resources and can't be used frequently, so Squigly's main tool for aerial opponents seems to be jumping around and poking with j.LK or trying to get over her opponent for a divekick.

Her long range aerial pokes, j.HP and j.HK, are both vulnerable in the entirety of their hitboxes, so you can smack her out of them with HP Luger or j.HK if Squigly tries to spam them, so the main things you have to worry about in Squigly's offense are j.LK, divekicks, and Battle Operas, which I see people deal with in different ways. You can fight j.LK and divekicks by staying in the air and trying to get the angle on Squigly with Double's j.LK or j.HP, and you can jump around while holding back to try and bait SBO and get her to waste meter (which she's really slow about building back, in my opinion), but the goal is to get Squigly into block stun, where her options become severely limited and you can go to town on her.

Defensively, Squigly has basically no good meterless options besides push-blocking and trying push you far enough where her 2LP or 2MK can win (or so that she can jump out), so get creative with your pressure or try to abuse j.HP, Catheads, or assists to keep her locked in. With meter, you can count on Squigly to either be mashing Daisy Pusher as a reversal, or attempting to pushblock you into Battle Opera, which I usually deal with by attempting most of my resets and odd pressure tricks from the air, as if I were dealing with Cerebella.

Anyway, I hope something there proves to be useful, and if any of my musings are incorrect, I apologize in advance! I'm pretty flowchart with my Double, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable can fill in the gaps!
 
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Quick question for Sage, Fuzzy, and anyone else that uses a lot of launch, j.LP|j.LK, j.MK, j.HK, land > crossunder resets:

What Double resets would you recommend using to train someone for the double-crossunder reset? I can do the actual crossunders and understand how they work, but I feel like they're not something I can "force" the recognition of in my opponent if that makes any sense.

Like.. should I do the j.LP, j.MP, j.HP to show them a single dash crossunder before escalating to the double crossunder?
 
If the player has never seen a double cross under, just do one. Then after he knows you can cross under mix it up with grab. Thennn on top of your opponent now knowing you can do those two things, try double cross under.
Use air throws as well.

The key is to use multiple resets. And to pay attention to how they react to the first reset attempt and base your following resets based on that.
 
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dekillsage said:
If the player has never seen a double cross under, just do one. Then after he knows you can cross under mix it up with grab. Thennn on top of your opponent now knowing you can do those two things, try double cross under.
Use air throws as well.

The key is to use multiple resets. And to pay attention to how they react to the first reset attempt and base your following resets based on that.


This is exactly what ive always done. The key concepts being if they downback or upback or mash. Once i have that info i consider that their default defense and tailor the rest of my resets to beat whichever of those options they used.

The primary patterns in my resets is i dont use the same exact hitpoint twice in a row, almost ever.
 
dekillsage said:
If the player has never seen a double cross under, just do one. Then after he knows you can cross under mix it up with grab. Thennn on top of your opponent now knowing you can do those two things, try double cross under.
Use air throws as well.

The key is to use multiple resets. And to pay attention to how they react to the first reset attempt and base your following resets based on that.

so then once they get used to the double, do i hit them with the triple?
zYAJhuO.png


[REDACTED]
 
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Yo damnnnnnnn
do they have to block that cross up?
 
dekillsage said:
Yo damnnnnnnn
do they have to block that cross up?

I think it's blockable and definitely techable, but I don't ever want to play the person that would actually tech that.
 
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I know it is, but does the opponent have to block that opposite the direction painwheel comes in, or opposite the direction double was in?

You never know with this game.

edit: I also could have worded my question better. Made so much sense in my head
 
dekillsage said:
I know it is, but does the opponent have to block that opposite the direction painwheel comes in, or opposite the direction double was in?

Not too sure.
 
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hlvn said:
I think it's blockable and definitely techable, but I don't ever want to play the person that would actually tech that.

 
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Hey, I'm pretty much a beginner and I've been practicing up on Parasoul to have as my point and main team character but I know that Double is basically a no-brainer assist to use and I will be training up with Double as well, are there any more recent/up to date and comprehensive guides/tutorial videos for Double beginners? If so I'd love to get a link to it/them and take a look. I like reading up on the combos but sometimes I need visual aid to see if I'm doing something wrong or to check timings on certain things.
 
Mysterygamer3k said:
Hey, I'm pretty much a beginner and I've been practicing up on Parasoul to have as my point and main team character but I know that Double is basically a no-brainer assist to use and I will be training up with Double as well, are there any more recent/up to date and comprehensive guides/tutorial videos for Double beginners? If so I'd love to get a link to it/them and take a look. I like reading up on the combos but sometimes I need visual aid to see if I'm doing something wrong or to check timings on certain things.

Just watch any top player that isn't TJ or Khaos and you'll have a double in no time.
 
Well, I do appreciate the advice, but I need a little more specific help because I think I'm doing something wrong while trying to learn her fridge into barrel loop combo. I know that it begins with c.lk > s.mk (x2) > s.hk > j.mk (2 hits) > J.hk (3 hits) > fridge drop but I can't seem to connect the fridge drop to the j.hk properly am I not using a technique I need to to ensure consistency? Or is it more of a timing issue on my part? I can record some footage with input data for sharing if necessary but I really want some help with this if anyone is willing. ^^
 
because it is not a Fridge loop but a Barrel Loop
 
Yes but I've seen it begin with the fridge first is what I meant. like shown at the very beginning of this video.
 
that combo doesnt work anymore because of the lessened undizzy, I would start with the barell loop first, then go to fridge because i finf it is better to use OTG last for that hard knockdown with knuckles
 
I use this one because's it's pretty basic and doesn't take much adjustment (switch the jLP and jLK for painwheel, skip the sLK on heavies, etc.).

cLK sMK sMK sHK
jLP jMK jHK Barrel
sLK sMK sMK sHK
jLK jMK jHK Barrel
sLP sMK sMK cHP H-Hornet Bomber x Car

The chains/links are kind of irrelevant, the main focus is that you "climb" them with your jumping light button and jMK so that you start the barrel as high as possible. That way you get the barrel to drag them down to the ground before the jHK Avery hits them, and then the jHK Avery gives you enough time to link your ground chain in and relaunch.

There's also the flesh step routes that McPeanuts (i think?) came up with that some Doubles use. Luger routes/chains exist, and there's some jMP jHP air chains/routes that exist. All of them have their uses.

Teacup enders and Fridge enders have more to do with ensuring conversions in looser confirms or for some character-specific conversions or carries, or because you're Duckator and he likes that fridge thing he came up with.
 
DeathArcana said:
that combo doesnt work anymore because of the lessened undizzy, I would start with the barell loop first, then go to fridge because i finf it is better to use OTG last for that hard knockdown with knuckles

Okay then, I'll just move on to practicing barrel loops for now then and work in fridge at the end if I can manage. Thanks a lot I appreciate it! :D
 
The best Doubles to watch would be KenInBlack and Duckator for your neutral game, and DekillSage for combos and tech.
 
Domo said:
The best Doubles to watch would be KenInBlack and Duckator for your neutral game, and DekillSage for combos and tech.

Sweet, I'll keep that in mind when I'm surfing through streams and videos. :D
 
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