Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

[The Dave]

Spoiler: Quotes

I want to feel in control of what I do in battle. FF 6 isn't automated because I can choose the actions for my party and success depends on how well equip, skilled, and how well you understood the situation. Basically the battle depends on my choices and what i choose. Project x zone felt automated because when i pressed a button it would do a combo, press the same button but differently resulted in a combo but no real difference in battle. it was basically a push to fight button. No skills, magic, choice, just a simple button press.

My complaint..well not really a complaint but more of a curiosity is will the combos be encouraged to the point where its better to do a set combo each time or will there be an incentive to change my combos up and get creative with how I use my team to dispatch the enemy?

Which leads into my other question about "team chemistry" which I stated before. Im curious to how they will handle other team members in battle besides the 4 we played already. the thing with project x zone is that with all the flashy combos and characters the teams were set to a certain pair of 2 characters (with the ability to add a 3rd assist character but sometimes they were useless on teams because the assists combos didn't link up well with the teams combos.)

Will my team chemistry, combo potential, and overall enjoyment of the game be affected by how I customize my team layout? (besides the obvious don't have a team with all fire elements.)

And finally what is the plan to encourage people to swap out their party members besides different elements?

Yeah... I don't understand what you mean when you say the fights feel like you have no control over them Magma. In this system you can't mash, it won't end well. You have to press the correct buttons in order to do combos, not just press whatever and get a different fancy looking move that auto connects like other games. Say you launch with Ajna Axe, if you then sweep with Tungar it's going to go below them and miss completely. A situation you could have control over if you decided to do his AOE swipes instead. Plus timing is everything; press Zebei's arrows too slowly after the axe launch and they'll whiff while the enemies falling.

...I think you just answered my question. Thanks.

I did this during the fundraising campaign, maybe it'll help assuage your concerns:

Specifically, it was an experiment to see if I could knock the Belu off the edge of the giant pit. I didn't, but I did get him pretty far through meter management, picking attacks with the most knockback, and timing things right. Razmi in particular is nifty for making sure you hit a target after he's been knocked somewhere weird. I was also able to get two lvl 2's in the same combo, which was cool, but besides the point. You can conceivably arrange a party specializing in knockback, lockdown (holding the target in place so they're closely grouped for massive damage), damage over time. Hell, we don't even know how grappling will work at all, only that it exists. Enemies will have guards and moves that break guard, etc. And that's just off the top of my head from various posts Mike's made over the last few months.

Combat's got depth, yo. :P

 

[Kai]

I did this during the fundraising campaign,

I can already imagine some really fun Crocomire-esque fights coming our way.

 

[Tank]

Most of my issues with the prototype are already being addressed. The only thing left that I have an issue with is while waiting for action bars to fill you can't do anything except block, try to run, or target a different enemy.

 

[Zidiane]

Oh yeah. I remember one of the things. During the Secret Boss, you had to block the front and the rear row at the same time. If you wanted to block efficiently, it was incredibly awkward to press just those two opposite buttons. Could there be anyway to block just a row? Maybe hold the block and then a direction to block that row? Also, I don't remember if it happened in the prototype, but if there will ever be attacks that only hit three characters, can holding all block and a character button block for everyone but the character held?

This next thing has probably been said, but I also remember being frustrated with the "dash quickly to speed through the wall" segment. Was it a certain number of specific dashes? It felt bad trying to get it by feel.

Also, I don't know if it's really important, but against the secret boss, it was easy to just hit all block when he moved. The idhi gained from blocking anything was worth spending it on blocking all. Was that supposed to be like that?

 

[Mike_Z]

OH BOY!

The battle system felt a little project x zone to me which felt automatic and took the player away from the controls which resulted in the gameplay becoming repetitive and i want to feel in control when I fight. How will the characters play? The same way as every other character with slightly different element variation? if so then whats my incentive to switch aside from elements? and if they do play differently will my team chemistry and combo potential suffer from having characters i want to have on my team?

Are you aware that you just expressed preferences for two opposite things?
You want the characters to all be different and not feel like they all work the same, but all work together in any combination without (I assume you mean) any skill on your part.
Those two things are literally not possible to have together?

So anyway.
If you think that there's no difference between Up, Neutral, and Down attacks besides how they look, then you are missing a large part of how the game works. :^) It wasn't very differentiated in the prototype, but it was true. Since you are missing a large part of how the game works, I don't think I am worried about it all feeling the same to you right now? I assure you, it mattered a lot which attacks you used if you wanted to do better...although the prototype was really easy so just beating it wasn't extremely difficult even if you didn't understand that, I guess. Using Razmi's Down attack properly, for example, helped LOTS. And healing vs using damage supers also.

As far as whether teams work together, you can certainly miss with attacks so it's up to you to get better at it? I'm not sure what to say here, if 3 of your characters all hit straight forward and one of them launches you miles in the air, you'll have to wait until after that attack before you hit with the others. Does that help at all?

I guess I don't understand your concerns here, aside from noticing that we need to make more clear what the differences in your choices do. How you manage your meter is pretty important, and that alone has more choice involved than anything in most RPGs with consumable items that refill your HP/MP.

As far as platforming, Ajna doesn't let you press jump for a couple of frames after you fall off a platform like most games do, that's on the list to fix also. Axe hang I would need to see an example with inputs (try Padlight?) because just holding the button down is kinda hard to imagine missing.

FF 6 isn't automated because I can choose the actions for my party and success depends on how well equip, skilled, and how well you understood the situation.

FF6 is "press a button and watch a thing happen". You literally can't be more automated than that except by removing the single button press.
If what you are missing is the magic and choice of THINGS before you press that button, like blitzes or whatnot, that's where your team composition matters in Indiv. Different characters give you different things to do.

And no, it is not just elements. In the prototype Razmi has healing and slow, and many other things (poison, haste, counter, etc) are planned for other characters in the final game. So who you pick is not just "I hit for fire damage now".

Most of my issues with the prototype are already being addressed. The only thing left that I have an issue with is while waiting for action bars to fill you can't do anything except block, try to run, or target a different enemy.

Please give me an example of a game that lets you do a satisfactory number of things when it's not your turn.
Or list things you expect to be able to do when you "can't do anything" as determined by the battle system in a given game. (In Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy, while waiting for your action bars to fill you can't do ANYTHING except try to run or get hit and have no input....so...?)

 

[Mike_Z]

Oh yeah. I remember one of the things. During the Secret Boss, you had to block the front and the rear row at the same time. If you wanted to block efficiently, it was incredibly awkward to press just those two opposite buttons. Could there be anyway to block just a row? Maybe hold the block and then a direction to block that row? Also, I don't remember if it happened in the prototype, but if there will ever be attacks that only hit three characters, can holding all block and a character button block for everyone but the character held?

Both of these would be mad confusing for new players without being explained and reinforced a lot.

This next thing has probably been said, but I also remember being frustrated with the "dash quickly to speed through the wall" segment. Was it a certain number of specific dashes? It felt bad trying to get it by feel.

That was an example of designing around a bug. Don't worry. :^P

Also, I don't know if it's really important, but against the secret boss, it was easy to just hit all block when he moved. The idhi gained from blocking anything was worth spending it on blocking all. Was that supposed to be like that?

That's intentional for earthquake, and not true for any other attack besides Yoga Flame. :^)

 

[Magma442]

Im pretty sure ive gotten myself confused by my own questions its been a while since I plaid the demo so I should probably brush up on it again. However it seemed what i worry about has either been on my part or it has been answered. Thanks.

 

[Zidiane]

Both of these would be mad confusing for new players without being explained and reinforced a lot.

Hmm... what about two macros for defense instead of one? Like L1 being Front+Back and L2 being Top+Bottom, and hitting them both together gives all guard, also letting you hit just one plus a third block on the controller face if needed. Or is it still too complicated/just not worth doing?

That was an example of designing around a bug. Don't worry. :^P

Oh yeah, I remember another thing. So, I'm playing Valkyrie Profile right now (Have never played it before (IT'S GREAT!)), and she can pick up boxes and stuff. In Indivisible, I remember that coaxing an enemy down into the ledge, to break the wall or for Zen, was a little tedious, and messing up was frustrating. Is there any chance of making it so you can stun an enemy, leaving the enemy pickupable for a period of time? Maybe freezing them into an enemy-sicle or something like in VP, letting you stand on them as well?

That's intentional for earthquake, and not true for any other attack besides Yoga Flame. :^)

I'll play through it again, but I remember figuring out a trick to make it super easy. I think it was holding all defend until I verified it wasn't earthquake or yoga flame, then switching to whoever was being attacked. I feel like I remember not ever missing a block/running out of meter while still getting enough to adequately heal after figuring out the trick, but this was 6 months ago so I don't remember explicitly.

 

[CullenA]

...if 3 of your characters all hit straight forward and one of them launches you miles in the air, ...
-mike

I just have an amazing visual of Kampan sticking enemies heads into the ceiling with a single punch.

 

[havick9]

If you feel like combos are too easy or not useful, try killing groups in the least amount of time and turns like in this video

 

[Mike_Z]

Hmm... what about two macros for defense instead of one? Like L1 being Front+Back and L2 being Top+Bottom, and hitting them both together gives all guard, also letting you hit just one plus a third block on the controller face if needed. Or is it still too complicated/just not worth doing?

"Hmm, maybe a more complicated input than one button for blocking with everyone" is indeed very complicated.
You want to accomplish something more complicated, so you can do the more complicated claw input, for now.
I'll revisit this later on in development when you bring it up in a year or so. <3

Oh yeah, I remember another thing. So, I'm playing Valkyrie Profile right now (Have never played it before (IT'S GREAT!)), and she can pick up boxes and stuff. In Indivisible, I remember that coaxing an enemy down into the ledge, to break the wall or for Zen, was a little tedious, and messing up was frustrating. Is there any chance of making it so you can stun an enemy, leaving the enemy pickupable for a period of time? Maybe freezing them into an enemy-sicle or something like in VP, letting you stand on them as well?

I will not be implementing a feature where you can easily dodge every single fight in the game from the get-go, no. I will also not be directly ripping off the single unique platforming feature of VP. :^)

I'll play through it again, but I remember figuring out a trick to make it super easy. I think it was holding all defend until I verified it wasn't earthquake or yoga flame, then switching to whoever was being attacked. I feel like I remember not ever missing a block/running out of meter while still getting enough to adequately heal after figuring out the trick, but this was 6 months ago so I don't remember explicitly.

Soooo....
Zid - "I learned a thing, I got better at the game, and it became easier to win."
Me - "Mission complete!"
?

 

[TheMightyBox]

Basic disclaimer of "I don't know if this has been said before or if it's been changed" etc. etc.

Whenever I played the prototype, I kinda felt that aside from Razmi, supers really weren't worth it since they had so much cooldown time after the fact. I get that it's already pretty easy to build, but isn't using up Idhi enough of a cost for using them, what's the purpose of putting a character out of commission for so long?

 

[Tank]

Please give me an example of a game that lets you do a satisfactory number of things when it's not your turn.
Or list things you expect to be able to do when you "can't do anything" as determined by the battle system in a given game. (In Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy, while waiting for your action bars to fill you can't do ANYTHING except try to run or get hit and have no input....so...?)

Final fantasy 13-3(lighting returns)- you can move around the field on the enemies "turn" very slowly. It Could make the opponent miss if you move just right. You can also change your "equipment/load out" on their turn to better defend yourself. You can use item's too but indivisible may not have items so N/A?

FF13-3's turns aren't "I go then you go". Both parties can act at the same time but it does limit your actions to a bar just like indivisible. Using all your bar basically ends your turn until you have more bar. If I run out of actions in FF I can still do the above even though it's not my "turn".

FF-12- switch party members out if they are not currently being attacked.

Xenosaga 3- you can "boost" during the enemies turn. Boosting makes the character go next no matter where they were on the turn list. Attacking built up the boost gauge in this game. Counter boosting was a thing too if the opponent ever boosted on you. The counter booster would go before the regular booster.

Sooo Things I'd like to do during enemy turn in indivisible.
-move around the field.
-switch weapons (maybe different weapons block better or something to make that useful IDK)
-switch incarnations. Being able to switch during battle in general would be good. During the opponents turn Ajna and the character being switched aren't being attacked.
-End opponents turn no matter what they are doing so I can act. (Some criteria needs to be met to do this)

 

[Mike_Z]

Whenever I played the prototype, I kinda felt that aside from Razmi, supers really weren't worth it since they had so much cooldown time after the fact. I get that it's already pretty easy to build, but isn't using up Idhi enough of a cost for using them, what's the purpose of putting a character out of commission for so long?

Supers had a huge cooldown / slowdown because I guessed at it. :^P
First experiment for when we get to supers again, Lv1 will have less cooldown, etc. And you'll be able to choose which level you use. This means making Lv2s less useful, though.
However, you could also time them properly in your action bar and only suffer half the penalty even in the prototype...so that's a cool feature I'll probably leave.

Sooo Things I'd like to do during enemy turn in indivisible.
-move around the field.

Wouldn't do very much? But also wouldn't let you switch targets since it's the directions that do that...?

-switch weapons (maybe different weapons block better or something to make that useful IDK)

This will probably be possible but at the cost of actions/Iddhi. So that solves nothing.

-switch incarnations. Being able to switch during battle in general would be good. During the opponents turn Ajna and the character being switched aren't being attacked.

This is probably not happening. Prepare first.

-End opponents turn no matter what they are doing so I can act. (Some criteria needs to be met to do this)

This is also probably not happening, at least not as a game-wide ability.

So...? I mean you want to be able to do things for no resources, after having run out of resources. Moving wouldn't help all that much, I think, but I can kinda try it? I'm considering letting you super (if you have Iddhi) when out of Actions at the cost of extra cooldown or HP or something, but yeah. There will be more defensive actions depending on the character, though in general it's probably just better to boost the battle "speed" so you don't wait as long.

 

[skull person]

If a game is turn based the only things that really make sense to do during an opponents turn is reduce the effectiveness of what they are doing, or activate / passively trigger something that you prepared during your active turn.
(Blocking, activating traps, triggering a counter / reflect when someone hits that character)

Anything more than that and you kind of break turn based battle.
During your turn, you wail on them uncontested (in the protoype) and during their turn, they wail on you and you can try and minimize the damage / cost of resources.

Not sure what else could be included.

I find turn based combat where it's 'you go' then 'I go' very boring anyway which is why I avoid most turn based RPGs.
The things that make those fun is the careful decision making you make on your turns weighing all your possible options and trying to pick the best ones every time you're allowed to input an action.

 

[Tank]

Wouldn't do very much? But also wouldn't let you switch targets since it's the directions that do that...?

Going off of the prototype and using ps3 controller. Currently the R2, L2, R3, and L3 buttons don't do anything so maybe while holding R2 and character button/s enter "move me/us around the field mode". And they stay where they're at after you release the button. Giving them new neutral positions. Maybe press R3 to reset neutral positions.

So...? I mean you want to be able to do things for no resources, after having run out of resources. Moving wouldn't help all that much, I think, but I can kinda try it?

Moving makes the whole team not get hit by one attack or have better positions for combos.
I'm getting some deja vu. I feel like this moving on field has been talked about before.

I'm considering letting you super (if you have Iddhi) when out of Actions at the cost of extra cooldown or HP or something.

Razmi let's out all her attacks then last ditch effort healing. let's go. I'm all for that.

 

[hellohello123123]

What i mean was when I ran an jump the weight felt a little too heavy for a character like Ajna.

baby got back

 

[ArgonBern]

baby got back

I like big butts and I cannot lie.

 

[Mike_Z]

Going off of the prototype and using ps3 controller. Currently the R2, L2, R3, and L3 buttons don't do anything so maybe while holding R2 and character button/s enter "move me/us around the field mode". And they stay where they're at after you release the button. Giving them new neutral positions. Maybe press R3 to reset neutral positions.

I'm allowed to say I don't like things, right?
I don't like letting your team move.

And you'd STILL GET HIT. Enemies are smart.

I'm open to the idea of players and enemies attacking at the same time, but not the way you think because blocking still has to work, and being out of bar would still suck. You used your resource up.

[edit] Aren't you the person that wanted analog stick bow aim? I think we have very different ideas of what makes games fun...

 

[Zidiane]

You want to accomplish something more complicated, so you can do the more complicated claw input, for now.
I'll revisit this later on in development when you bring it up in a year or so. <3

I'll forget. It didn't bother me that much, and I was able to claw efficiently enough so it's probably gonna be fine if enemies that require that aren't super common.

I will not be implementing a feature where you can easily dodge every single fight in the game from the get-go, no.

... what about letting you finish an enemy off in a fight by stunning them? Like... maybe the painted sand girl could turn them into art or something in a fight if you finish them with a specific move. It would almost treat them like catching Pokemon (side quest involving collected sand enemies?). You wouldn't be able to skip the fights, and you could still use them to make platforming easier/use whatever cool tricks for needing them certain places. You would also be able to carry enemies to places you wouldn't otherwise be able to bring enemies, maybe leaving more room for cool tricks in places the player wouldn't immediately think to do cool things in.

Edit: an example of what I'm talking about, the tree at the beginning, you might be able to climb it with spear ledges and carry an enemy up there. Then while at the treetop, stand on the sand enemy and use the speed boost trick to dash jump off its head and land on the temple, where you normally couldn't get to.

I will also not be directly ripping off the single unique platforming feature of VP. :^)

Can you stand on the enemies or pick them up? I tried doing that and nothing happened. Did I just do it wrong?

Soooo....
Zid - "I learned a thing, I got better at the game, and it became easier to win."
Me - "Mission complete!"
?

Ohhhhhh.

 

[Kit Ballard]

I like how this turned into a huge Q&A.

Have I got questions? Not really. Can't wait to try the more advanced mechanics like enemies guarding and what not.

 

[mcpeanuts]

In Indivisible, I remember that coaxing an enemy down into the ledge, to break the wall or for Zen, was a little tedious, and messing up was frustrating.

I forgot about this actually but yeah Zen was super obnoxious and I gave up on it because it basically wasn't fun. I don't know what could be done to make that sort of thing less frustrating, but, it was frustrating and I'm hoping it's less frustrating in the full game.

If you feel like combos are too easy or not useful, try killing groups in the least amount of time and turns like in this video

Holy moly I did not realize Clearest was down to 13:33, that's about how long it took me to finish any%. I'll have to watch this later.

 

[Magma442]

Dumb question but will there be a movelist in the final game for what attacks a party member knows and what effect it can bring?

 

[Goodbye18000]

Dumb question but will there be a movelist in the final game for what attacks a party member knows and what effect it can bring?

No, we're going classic Final Fantasy I, you'll get four letters like REND or NUKE or FIR1 and you'll have to figure out what they are yourself

of course they'll be a move list, it's an RPG, we didn't even have MENUS in the prototype just wait for those

 

[superj3]

Did they say anything yet about what changes Ajnas super form will bring game play wise? I figured it would be like super sayin making her stronger all around.

 

[Kawalorn]

I forgot about this actually but yeah Zen was super obnoxious and I gave up on it because it basically wasn't fun. I don't know what could be done to make that sort of thing less frustrating, but, it was frustrating and I'm hoping it's less frustrating in the full game.

Considering this isn't the way you are supposed to play the game, but pretty much breaking the system it would be weird to balance game around those things.

 

[The Dave]

I was under the impression that Zen in the Prototype was accidental but later supported. "Oh, we didn't mean for you to do that, but cool! Let's make it a bit easier and more consistent." The full game will probably have better designed alternative routes by virtue of them being designed at all.

"Ajna, why have you cut a bloody and violent trail of war to reach me?" "I suck at platforming." "You killed an optional, really hard boss!" "I really suck at platforming."

 

[KaboomKid]

Ohhh, being able to use Supers without Action Bar sounds pretty interesting! That would be a cool way to get some licks in, or emergency Heal, after absorbing a nice meter-juicy block.

And yeah, like Mike, I'm also not a big fan of free movement with this kind of battle system. Unless it's a Tales style game where you're on a wide open field, and you're constantly running around, I prefer things simpler and focused on the team dynamics. I'm sure enemies will be keeping us very busy on the defensive side anyway.

However, from that first Pre-Prototype "VR" footage, I do remember really liking how the characters would change their starting positions slightly during battle. Looking back, that movement was probably just the result of unfinished script, but I still think it'd be neat if party formations could shift with the flow of battle as characters got juggled around, or pushed really far back like in The Dave's video.

Those are just my reflections from watching the early footage though, so I don't want to bring this into Ideas territory. I'm just really looking forward to seeing the next battle system updates.

 

[Tank]

And you'd STILL GET HIT. Enemies are smart

I mean I don't know the types of enemy attacks that are gonna be in the game so area of effect attacks and random targeting may have changed already or don't work the way I think they work. from what's in the prototype it seems like you'd definitely not get everyone hit with certain attacks if you could reposition. but I can't argue "I don't like it" without being too annoying so I guess that's that.

 

[havick9]

Sooo Things I'd like to do during enemy turn in indivisible.
-move around the field.

Wouldn't do very much?

If melee enemies were further away they'd have to walk farther than usual to hit you which means you have more time to react. Ex. Secret boss vs Ajna/Razmi
I bet Razmi likes to boast about all the secret boss swipes and bites she has blocked compared to Ajna to Ajna.

Holy moly I did not realize Clearest was down to 13:33, that's about how long it took me to finish any%. I'll have to watch this later.

It could be 12:5x or something if I didn't mess up so much.

 

[Zidiane]

+1 for not letting characters move around the field. It doesn't seem like it would fit this kind of game.

Now... if Lab Zero ever got around to making a Chrono Trigger type game...

 

[mcpeanuts]

Considering this isn't the way you are supposed to play the game, but pretty much breaking the system it would be weird to balance game around those things.

I'm mostly worried about the optimal route through the game requiring that sort of thing. If that's the case I probably won't end up speedrunning it. I would prefer either for it to be easier to skip fights in that way, OR for it to be impossible; either one would be fine by me.

 

[Kai]

If characters are going to move around, I'd prefer it to be at the game's say so, a la puzzle-fights that require different tactics. I see no way that manually moving your characters in this system would actually add any enjoyment to experience. I didn't need it in FFVI, I didn't need it in Chrono Trigger, I don't think I need it here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[KaboomKid]

I'm mostly worried about the optimal route through the game requiring that sort of thing.

There was a discussion about this before, I think. That's when Mike chimed in:

I guarantee that skipping all skippable battles won't be the fastest way to complete the game. :^P

So barring some massive Skip glitch, there shouldn't be much to worry about. Too soon to tell either way I guess.

 

[Zidiane]

I didn't need it in Chrono Trigger

I would have liked it in CT, actually. The game was fine without it, but since a fair number of your skills directly depended on where you were on the field, being able to reposition (or set up specific places for your characters to be ahead of time in the menu) would have actually had a meaningful impact on a bunch of the encounters. I'm hoping we can move characters in Project Setsuna.

 

[The Dave]

any enjoyment to experience... FFVI

I just hope we can run in place backwards while fighting a train.

 

[havick9]

If characters are going to move around, I'd prefer it to be at the game's say so, a la puzzle-fights that require different tactics. I see no way that manually moving your characters in this system would actually add any enjoyment to experience. I didn't need it in FFVI, I didn't need it in Chrono Trigger, I don't think I need it here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, party formations might be a thing that you can do before battles.
Like I'd make my party make a line like how classic FFs do so the secret boss can only flamethrower one character at a time.
Finding these little things to help fights be easier is fun.

 

[mcpeanuts]

There was a discussion about this before, I think. That's when Mike chimed in:

So barring some massive Skip glitch, there shouldn't be much to worry about. Too soon to tell either way I guess.

I remember Mike saying that, but it's worded in a way that implies you could still skip some enemies. Which I'm fine with, I'm fine with all the skips in Clearest%, but axing that one dude into the pit is seriously garbage.

 

[ArgonBern]

I just hope we can run in place backwards while fighting a train.

Will we be able to suplex a train in Indivisible?

 

[Kai]

Will we be able to suplex a train in Indivisible?

Spoiler

Spoiler