Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

[dead]

There's another thing brewing that I can't talk about yet that will have a big impact on whether SG2 happens or not, as well.

Well that makes me feel even more worried than before ;_;

 

[Magma442]

SG2!? Dont care how just point me in the direction of how I can make this happen!

 

[Mike_Z]

We've already concluded that I'm not an English major last year... I'm not the one picking your website apart for ill spellings and grammar.

I know, but since I was replying anyway...it's never too late to improve! :^)

I can't wait for the prototype to drop. I'm feeling kinda mixed on the game right now cause on the one hand I love platformers, but on the other I've played very few RPGs where the combat is anything more than a chore. 9 times out of 10 I would take an action game like a megaman or a vanillaware game over an RPG. RPG combat is just so repetitive and it never feels like it's based on skill, you just grind up, find the path of least resistance, take turns hitting each other until one party is dead, and rinse and repeat. I'm like halfway through persona 3 right now, and it's just a fantastic game marred by not very strategic combat. I don't know, @Mike_Z are there any systems you have in mind to keep combat varied and strategic? I really don't want to play another dice rolling simulator.

"Are there any systems you have in mind to keep combat varied and strategic?"
Did you actually just write a whole paragraph of assumptions about how the game works and then ask if I've come up with anything to keep the combat interesting without even having SEEN COMBAT?
That's a whole lot of incorrect broad assumptions, let's point the big ones out:
- That Indivisible requires (or allows!) grinding. In this very thread I mentioned how I don't want grinding to influence your HP, damage, or defense...the prototype gives you what would normally be plot/item upgrades after fights, but that's because it has no plot.
- That Indivisible is actually taking turns. The only thing that's a "turn" about it is that you and the enemy can't attack at the same time.
- That there is no "skill" (by which I assume you mean reactions or timing as opposed to mental skill, since you disparage other RPGs which do require that) involved in the combat. This is so far off I can't even begin.
- That there is random damage, random defense, or MISSing. There are no dice rolls for things like this in Indivisible combat.

Spoiler

- That "Vanillaware games" have combat which isn't a chore, your results in them don't improve by grinding, and they don't involve dice rolls. :^P

If this is really what you think, I encourage you to play the prototype when it comes out.

 

[Cheesedragon]

Assume! Let's all assume people! This is just like the motherfrocking Overwatch subreddit!! Let's just ASSUME things about a game that's not even out yet!!!!!!

 

[Negaduck]

Every time I've visited the studio mike is never there :(

Wanted to talk deeper gameplay systems/mechanics/ideas while I visited lol.

 

[Kai]

"Are there any systems you have in mind to keep combat varied and strategic?"

Mike looked up from his monitor, a single bead of sweat forming on his forehead. He knew he'd forgotten... something.

My God, he thought. The gameplay. I forgot the gameplay. Furrowing his brow, he began typing furiously. He had 6 days in which to create varied and strategic gameplay.

If only I'd considered this sooner, he lamented. Another bead of sweat began to form.

 

[Scar]

Every time I've visited the studio mike is never there :(

Wanted to talk deeper gameplay systems/mechanics/ideas while I visited lol.

Wait, you can just walk into the Studio?

 

[Mike_Z]

Every time I've visited the studio mike is never there :(
Wanted to talk deeper gameplay systems/mechanics/ideas while I visited lol.

Yeah, you ended up coming on like the two days I was out. Sorry.... :^P

Wait, you can just walk into the Studio?

You can ask and visit, sure! We're not the Pentagon.

He had 6 days

2 days. :^P I might only get to "varied" or "strategic".

 

[Negaduck]

Yeah, you ended up coming on like the two days I was out. Sorry.... :^P

Its all good, still had an awesome time! I've said it before but you guys have something really really special.

Sooo good.

You can ask and visit, sure! We're not the Pentagon.
.

Well the blindfolded detour, 14 security doors/retina scans/ credit check had me fooled.

 

[KaboomKid]

Sooo good.

Hey, I enjoyed reading that little review you wrote on NeoGaf. Had any other thoughts about the game since then? Of course, this thread is going to get flooded with everyone's experiences soon, but it's still cool to hear early opinions of it from people outside the dev team.

 

[Negaduck]

Hey, I enjoyed reading that little review you wrote on NeoGaf. Had any other thoughts about the game since then? Of course, this thread is going to get flooded with everyone's experiences soon, but it's still cool to hear early opinions of it from people outside the dev team.

I've been thinking of the game nonstop from the drive back to a friends house to the 4hr drive home from LA lol.

I wanted to just keep playing and talking about it with everyone. I have more thoughts on some smaller details but I wanted to kinda be vague because the prototype hasn't been released to the public.

I want everyone to have as pure an experience as possible. I can (kinda) answer questions if you have them (with permission of course), but seeing what's in store has me so excited.

 

[KaboomKid]

I can (kinda) answer questions if you have them (with permission of course), but seeing what's in store has me so excited.

Hmmm! I don't want to get spoiled either...but here's a quick "yes" or "no" question. Don't answer with any details pls.

From your time at the studio, did you see anything that made you immensely excited for the game, that will NOT be featured in the prototype, and might not even be mentioned during the IGG campaign? No details! Just curious!

 

[Negaduck]

Hmmm! I don't want to get spoiled either...but here's a quick "yes" or "no" question. Don't answer with any details pls.

From your time at the studio, did you see anything that made you immensely excited for the game, that will NOT be featured in the prototype, and might not even be mentioned during the IGG campaign? No details! Just curious!

Haha, very much yes. Yes. Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus

I saw a lot of things that may or may not be in the prototype.

So many awesome things. I'm incredibly excited for this game.

 

[Broken Loose]

Persona 3's combat isn't strategic? That's a new one.

If you want to know what Indivisible's combat will be like, try to imagine an ATB version of Valkyrie Profile, or so I assume based off of blog posts and descriptions.

 

[Not-So-Saint]

@Negaduck it's Ajna, not Anja.

 

[Negaduck]

@Negaduck it's Ajna, not Anja.

Ah my fault, the HYPER COMBAT ACTION distracted me from the correct spelling of the name.

Noted for the future.

 

[Tank]

Mike looked up from his monitor, a single bead of sweat forming on his forehead. He knew he'd forgotten... something.

My God, he thought. The gameplay. I forgot the gameplay. Furrowing his brow, he began typing furiously. He had 6 days in which to create varied and strategic gameplay.

If only I'd considered this sooner, he lamented. Another bead of sweat began to form.

WTH. I don't know if its the change in font or the writing but this comment just made me feel like Morgan Freeman was saying it. lol

 

[dead]

@Mike_Z


"Are there any systems you have in mind to keep combat varied and strategic?"
Did you actually just write a whole paragraph of assumptions about how the game works and then ask if I've come up with anything to keep the combat interesting without even having SEEN COMBAT?

I mean I did see the gameplay video. It's not that I'm assuming what it is or isn't, it's more that I wanted to voice what I don't like about RPGs, and give you an opening to explain how you would address them. I actually have a lot of faith in you making a good game. If talking about the game isn't fun for you, just say so. It's not like you need to convince me to back, you already have my money. I really like talking about game design and I figured a forum is as good a place as any to do it, but I guess I'll refrain from writing so much in the future.

That's a whole lot of incorrect broad assumptions, let's point the big ones out:
That Indivisible requires (or allows!) grinding. In this very thread I mentioned how I don't want grinding to influence your HP, damage, or defense...the prototype gives you what would normally be plot/item upgrades after fights, but that's because it has no plot.

Sounds good to me. Sorry, I should have read the whole thread.

That Indivisible is actually taking turns. The only thing that's a "turn" about it is that you and the enemy can't attack at the same time.

That sounds like turn based combat to me. That's one of the things I was hoping you would elaborate on.

That there is no "skill" (by which I assume you mean reactions or timing as opposed to mental skill, since you disparage other RPGs which do require that) involved in the combat. This is so far off I can't even begin.

No, I'm absolutely talking about mental skill. I've played very few RPGs where decision making matters, usually it's just find whatever the elemental weakness is and abuse that. The simultaneously worst and best example I can think of is pokemon; in the campaign combat is super flow chart but when playing against another player decision making gets incredibly deep. I'm curious to know how you are going to promote strategic thinking without a human opponent.

That there is random damage, random defense, or MISSing. There are no dice rolls for things like this in Indivisible combat.

Cool, that's a good design choice.

That "Vanillaware games" have combat which isn't a chore, your results in them don't improve by grinding, and they don't involve dice rolls. :^P

I'll admit the only vanillaware game I've played is muramasa, and it doesn't require grinding if you're good at it. I should have used a different example. When I say dice rolling, I don't mean strictly RNG, I mean that you just sort of sit there doing the same move over and over till they're dead, and RNG is just used as a bandaid for repetition

If this is really what you think, I encourage you to play the prototype when it comes out.

I'm looking forward to it.

Mike looked up from his monitor, a single bead of sweat forming on his forehead. He knew he'd forgotten... something.

My God, he thought. The gameplay. I forgot the gameplay. Furrowing his brow, he began typing furiously. He had 6 days in which to create varied and strategic gameplay.

If only I'd considered this sooner, he lamented. Another bead of sweat began to form.

Well if you guys don't want to talk about the gameplay, we don't have to since we all know it's going to be good. I guess I just falsely assumed that combat would be a more interesting discussion than a dick measuring contest over who has the hardest language. What can I say, I'm an assumer. :^)

Persona 3's combat isn't strategic? That's a new one.

If you want to know what Indivisible's combat will be like, try to imagine an ATB version of Valkyrie Profile, or so I assume based off of blog posts and descriptions.

Persona 3s combat is incredibly shallow. The persona creation system is awesome, but the actual combat is very flow chart. Identify weaknesses -> use appropriate spell -> all out attack -> repeat. I've never played valkyrie profile. I was a nintendo boy and I definitely didn't have an interest in JRPGs when the playstation was around anyway. My first non handheld console was the wii, to put it in perspective.

 

[No longer exist]

There's another thing brewing that I can't talk about yet that will have a big impact on whether SG2 happens or not, as well.

Yo, Ravidrath. Don't do that to my poor little heart ;_;

 

[Agidyne2]

Persona 3s combat is incredibly shallow. The persona creation system is awesome, but the actual combat is very flow chart. Identify weaknesses -> use appropriate spell -> all out attack -> repeat. I've never played valkyrie profile. I was a nintendo boy and I definitely didn't have an interest in JRPGs when the playstation was around anyway. My first non handheld console was the wii, to put it in perspective.

Ya know, you can make anything sound shallow by reducing it to it's core components. That's like saying "Filia's gameplan is shallow because you just get in opponents face -> mix-up - > repeat." I mean, technically both statements are correct, but its missing all the nuance.

 

[dead]

Ya know, you can make anything sound shallow by reducing it to it's core components. That's like saying "Filia's gameplan is shallow because you just get in opponents face -> mix-up - > repeat." I mean, technically both statements are correct, but its missing all the nuance.

What's the nuance in P3s combat? Good RPG combat can definitely have nuance, I just think it's rare. In a fighting game the path of least resistance is constantly changing and there's a premium on decision making. In many of the RPGs I've played, not so much.

 

[DukeMagus]

I think I've asked something similar some time ago, but let's try it again and mix old and new.

I've been thinking (bad omen ) ... How will the game deal with status effects/afflictions and attribute buffs/debuffs

Will attribute buffs/debuffs work with fixed values, percentage or both at the same time?

Will status effects have a clear indication of its remaining time? Will this time be affected by an attribute or be fixed (or a random value)?

Will we have only the "common" status effects (poison, paralyze, blind and other classics found in final Fantasy and Dragon Quest) or you have something special in mind (maybe affecting controls like persona 4 arena or input delay like valentine's vials)

If there's poison status effect, will it drain your hp constantly or in "ticks"?

A side question: will the game get some unlockable extras (gallery, sound test, special modes like boss rush and other neat stuff? )

 

[Agidyne2]

What's the nuance in P3s combat? Good RPG combat can definitely have nuance, I just think it's rare. In a fighting game the path of least resistance is constantly changing and there's a premium on decision making. In many of the RPGs I've played, not so much.

It's been a while since I've actually played P3, but I'm pretty sure there are instances where its not beneficial to do an All out attack. There also the fact that there are late game enemies that don't have weakness, the importance of using buffs/debuffs correctly, guarding or switching personas when your own weakness are targeted, etc. There are definitely bosses that'll kick your shit in if you haven't mastered all of the nuance of the game.

 

[Covenant]

It's been a while since I've actually played P3, but I'm pretty sure there are instances where its not beneficial to do an All out attack. There also the fact that there are late game enemies that don't have weakness, the importance of using buffs/debuffs correctly, guarding or switching personas when your own weakness are targeted, etc. There are definitely bosses that'll kick your shit in if you haven't mastered all of the nuance of the game.

Yeah....I'm not done with P3 yet, but preventing your weakness from being target is very important....when you get a chance to. I remember going to a new flow or tartarus, getting into a fight, and immediately getting one-shot on my enemies turn because an enemy I'd never seen before (and didn't look like it would hurt me much) just so happened to have expertise in my weakness -_-

 

[Mike_Z]

If talking about the game isn't fun for you, just say so.

Reading a bunch of BS ending in a question that doesn't really apply because it's based on the BS is not fun for me, nor do I imagine it's fun for anyone else. :^P

Well if you guys don't want to talk about the gameplay, we don't have to

You missed the point again - you came at it with what sounded like a fairly arrogant post filled with assumptions. Nobody wants to "discuss" that kind of thing...

I really like talking about game design and I figured a forum is as good a place as any to do it, but I guess I'll refrain from writing so much in the future.

Perhaps phrase it in a way that can be unambiguously interpreted NOT to mean "Indivisible is all this shit I don't like, how are you going to make it interesting?"
If what you meant is, "This is the stuff I don't like, how are you avoiding it?" that did not come across at ALL.

In case that IS what you meant, I'll do my best to answer...

That Indivisible is actually taking turns. The only thing that's a "turn" about it is that you and the enemy can't attack at the same time.

That sounds like turn based combat to me. That's one of the things I was hoping you would elaborate on.

If I play a round of SG with you and we never trade hits, was that turn-based according to you? I went, I went, you went, I went, you went.
The moments in-between don't matter at all? :^P

Basic turn-based means I go, you go, I go, you go. To me, this is "turn based" - you have forever to select your next action, and nothing happens as a result of you doing nothing. Even if it is "speed" that determines turn order, like My Person A goes, My Person B goes, Enemy A goes, My Person C goes, etc. and you can change the order by increasing or decreasing speed, with a timeline at the top or whatever...that's still turn based. FF Tactics, Valkyrie Profile, Final Fantasy 1, etc. You can affect when you go, but you can't decide when. Persona 3 is this type.

Things like Grandia start to get away from that because when you were choosing your attack the game was paused, but WHEN you decided to attack mattered.

When you get into things like FF4-5-6 or Chrono Trigger, with ATBs and the ability to have Active battle where enemies would attack you while you were choosing your own attack, that starts to not be lumped into "turn-based" as much, for me. Attack animations still happen as self-contained units, but they're basically like throws in fighting games - the real action of the game takes place between those animations. The enemy and the player can't attack at the same time, but it is no longer simply turns.

Indivisible is the latter thing. You decide when you want to go, with what resources.

I'm curious to know how you are going to promote strategic thinking without a human opponent.

Decision-making without human opponents is always flatter than with them. Pokemon has a fairly complex system with weaknesses and counters and status effects, but the AI uses it poorly.
So the only thing I can say to this is that I LIKE boss design where it's a puzzle, you need to figure out how to not be on the ground when they cast Earthquake or whatever, rather than bosses you can just tank and not care. There are some things planned for how defense works (past what is in the prototype) that will make both timing and attack choices matter a decent amount more than you'd think.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

"strategic thinking" is definitely a different beast for single player games, regardless of where they fall on the action/turn-based scale. You can't really "read" or "mind-game" an ai in the same way you would a human.

For me, a good example of single player strategy/tactics and the "puzzle" type stuff Mike mentioned is what you encounter in some of the better Touhou titles: Enemy bullet patterns are frequently semi-randomized (so you can't just memorize the pattern once and be done with it), but there's usually a clever "trick" that can optimize your chances of survival by allowing you to avoid the more complex/confusing areas of the shit storm.

Some of them are a bit unsubtle, like "make a sharp turn to misdirect all the homing bullets", but others are intensely nuanced like "focus your eyes on point a while watching point b with your peripheral vision". I like it best when the solution to the "puzzle" is simple and intuitive enough that you only have yourself to blame when you don't figure it out (even if you're seeing it for the first time).

Those differences in strategy are what give the sense of variety (or "difference in kind" as extra creditz would put it) to all the various attacks in the game. Applies to any action game really.

 

[Mike_Z]

Some of them are a bit unsubtle, like "make a sharp turn to misdirect all the homing bullets", but others are intensely nuanced like "focus your eyes on point a while watching point b with your peripheral vision". I like it best when the solution to the "puzzle" is simple and intuitive enough that you only have yourself to blame when you don't figure it out (even if you're seeing it for the first time).

I'd like very much to explain to you the difference between someone who gets this out of a game and the people who need to be told things like "press left or right to switch your target" in RPGs.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

I was in game design class last year and saw someone (who claimed to be a long time gamer) game over on stage 1-1 of Super Mario Bros.

Later someone else also said that Dark Souls was unfair because all the checkpoints are 9 hours apart.

I wept for us all upon that day.

 

[dead]

Reading a bunch of BS ending in a question that doesn't really apply because it's based on the BS is not fun for me, nor do I imagine it's fun for anyone else. :^P

All I knew is that the game is an RPG like valkeria chronicles, which I've never played. I've watched all the footage that's been put out, I'm as informed as you can be. I don't know what discussions are going on behind the curtain, so I just have to extrapolate what I do know from other similar games if I want to talk about it. In fact I'm going to go back on something I said before, I was definitely making assumptions. I just don't see what's so wrong with that. It's like over at the horsepuncher thread, we don't know exactly how it functions so we have to make assumptions based on what they've put out already. When I mentioned it not being fun to talk about I was just hedging my comments, I was trying to be polite and give you a way to dismiss me if you didn't want to talk about it.


You missed the point again - you came at it with what sounded like a fairly arrogant post filled with assumptions. Nobody wants to "discuss" that kind of thing...

I try to be as articulate as possible but I guess that can come off as arrogant.


Perhaps phrase it in a way that can be unambiguously interpreted NOT to mean "Indivisible is all this shit I don't like, how are you going to make it interesting?"
If what you meant is, "This is the stuff I don't like, how are you avoiding it?" that did not come across at ALL.

I apologize that I came off that way, I could have phrased it better. That's what I meant yes.


When you get into things like FF4-5-6 or Chrono Trigger, with ATBs and the ability to have Active battle where enemies would attack you while you were choosing your own attack, that starts to not be lumped into "turn-based" as much, for me. Attack animations still happen as self-contained units, but they're basically like throws in fighting games - the real action of the game takes place between those animations. The enemy and the player can't attack at the same time, but it is no longer simply turns.

Well, it would depend on whether there is any advantage to not moving your unit at the earliest possible opportunity. If there's no reason to delay attacking with a unit, then it's just a turn based game with an execution barrier.


Decision-making without human opponents is always flatter than with them. Pokemon has a fairly complex system with weaknesses and counters and status effects, but the AI uses it poorly.
So the only thing I can say to this is that I LIKE boss design where it's a puzzle, you need to figure out how to not be on the ground when they cast Earthquake or whatever, rather than bosses you can just tank and not care. There are some things planned for how defense works (past what is in the prototype) that will make both timing and attack choices matter a decent amount more than you'd think.

That sounds very cool, that's the answer I was looking for. Would that design philosophy apply to grunt battles too?

 

[Mr Peck]

All I knew is that the game is an RPG like valkeria chronicles, which I've never played.

Valkyrie Profile*

 

[Ebony]

Reading a bunch of BS ending in a question that doesn't really apply because it's based on the BS is not fun for me, nor do I imagine it's fun for anyone else. :^P

Nice

 

[Cellsai]

Lots of italics quotes

Just to interject here, but it's really difficult to read these long posts in this style of quoting stuff only using italics. It's not a forum rule to use the Quote button, but it makes it a hell of a lot easier to read your posts!

 

[Ryin]

Decision-making without human opponents is always flatter than with them. Pokemon has a fairly complex system with weaknesses and counters and status effects, but the AI uses it poorly.
So the only thing I can say to this is that I LIKE boss design where it's a puzzle, you need to figure out how to not be on the ground when they cast Earthquake or whatever, rather than bosses you can just tank and not care. There are some things planned for how defense works (past what is in the prototype) that will make both timing and attack choices matter a decent amount more than you'd think.

I'm even more excited about the game after reading this.
Another thing I hate it in RPGs is when you can trivialize the boss by dealing so much damage it dies before acting. For a recent example, take Etrian Odyssey 2 Untold and the series' ongoing powercreep which doesn't show signs of stopping anytime soon. There is an extra boss with 7 phases and some of the coolest AIs in the series. It's very hard to figure out how to get through everything by yourself because of how many things it can do to destroy your maxed team. But the powercreep is so intense you can just beat it in 5 turns without taking damage.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

Rereading Gangrach's posts, it's not that bad. I read his post as:

"Indivisible is part rpg

most rpg's I've played have lame combat

What is indivisible doing to make combat not lame?"

I don't agree with rpg's not having strategy/tactics, but I don't see many "assumptions" about Indivisible itself within the quote. I think this is a bit of a misunderstanding.

 

[ArgonBern]

Autumn wants to do it and we'd like to do it some day, but I have no idea if or when it will ever actually happen. We were starting to talk about it, but Autumn couldn't get the money together before we signed Indivisible with 505.

There's another thing brewing that I can't talk about yet that will have a big impact on whether SG2 happens or not, as well.

OH SHIT IT'S THE ANIME THE TELLTALE GAME VULCAN HEEL A METAL SLUG STYLE GAME SET IN SG UNIVERSE MAERUTO'S GAME

But really, let's not talk about stuff that isn't happening yet, let's talk about stuff that is going to happen very soon like Indiv

 

[Broken Loose]

Well, it would depend on whether there is any advantage to not moving your unit at the earliest possible opportunity. If there's no reason to delay attacking with a unit, then it's just a turn based game with an execution barrier.

Try doing, like, literally any research on Valkyrie Profile. Starting with getting the name right.

 

[mcpeanuts]

Valkyrie Profile*

True story, my BFF Coolcab got super excited about this game cause he heard it was inspired by Valkyrie Chronicles, then I explained it's actually inspired by Valkyrie Profile and he was like "what the fuck is that"

 

[Mike_Z]

Nice

Is this all you're here for? :^P

How 'bout:
"Our next game will be the fighting game anyone with two thumbs can play and compete with Daigo, and perfectly balanced, also no DLC! Yes, I love all fan feedback, we listen to everyone! You don't like this character? They're gone! You drew a fan art with no sense of proportion? I LOVE it! You want to play as an NPC from ten years ago? DONE! You want to ask me if you'll be good at this game? OF COURSE you will, buy it now! No paid revisions ever! ...what do you mean, 'rollback netcode', what is that? Look, costumes!"
Oh wait, that's not me. I'll tell you if you're being annoying, but I also won't lie to ya. If you would prefer niceness in the face of not-niceness, then that entire paragraph is true AND I love you personally!

Well, it would depend on whether there is any advantage to not moving your unit at the earliest possible opportunity. If there's no reason to delay attacking with a unit, then it's just a turn based game with an execution barrier.

Team techs in Chrono Trigger, ordering things like using a fire spell after someone else casts elemental weakness instead of before...there are reasons to wait, even if none are specifically built in to the system. Come on, now you're just being contrarian.

 

[Sotherius]

I have a question, about enemy encounter.

Like, i've seen the battle video, and it was like: you are platforming, and you see an enemy, and you "touch" him, and battle starts.

My question is, avoiding enemy encounter will be as simple as "jumping over him", or we will have enemies that will track me, or if i attempt to jump over them, they'll jump to force the encounter, or things like that?

 

[ArgonBern]

You don't like this character? They're gone! You drew a fan art with no sense of proportion? I LOVE it!

No, wait, I think I know where most of that stuff comes from, but... needing of approval from the devs? Have I missed something?