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On Defensive Assists

Nerf Updo/Bomber/Pillar, and Filia will always pick Hairball, Double will always pick Cilia Slide, and Para just won't be picked at all unless on point.

It won't add variety. It actually might reduce it.
 
Mike_Z said:
and either make Bomber only one hit if blocked+lower knockdown

mike pls
Cynical said:
Nerf Updo/Bomber/Pillar, and Filia will always pick Hairball, Double will always pick Cilia Slide, and Para just won't be picked at all unless on point.

It won't add variety. It actually might reduce it.

Nah I'd still pick bomber. Unless it does what mike listed above then idkkkk.
 
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Cynical said:
Nerf Updo/Bomber/Pillar, and Filia will always pick Hairball, Double will always pick Cilia Slide, and Para just won't be picked at all unless on point.
It won't add variety. It actually might reduce it.
This, I disagree with. Hairball is no help on defense, Slide same deal. If the others somehow became unusable on defense, sure, but that's not the aim of any of this (misguided or not).

dekillsage said:
Nah I'd still pick bomber. Unless it does what mike listed above then idkkkk.
I'm okay-est with one hit if blocked.
 
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Would bomber change apply to all bombers or just light bomber. I would hope not all, if you can cover the other bombers to utilize them it seems stupid for them to also be one hit on block.

Does anyone else have any other ideas for reversal assists? I feel like leaving them in longer post hit is also a silly change that would look weird. And it my experience the amount of time before they can come out that you can hit them seems dialed into the right place as well.

I can't imagine it being any longer without it frustrating the defensive person more than people on the offense who get hit by reversal assists feel.

Realistically there are only so many ways for DP style assists to work, mvc2 kind of showed most of them. Changing the angle to make converting slightly harder just seems like adding a more frustrating element to the mix, because then you get the feeling "I could have converted but I fucked up" that sentiment might not be a shared one and is just an overly negative outlook from my point of view.
 
Cynical said:
Nerf Updo/Bomber/Pillar, and Filia will always pick Hairball, Double will always pick Cilia Slide, and Para just won't be picked at all unless on point.

It won't add variety. It actually might reduce it.

Yeah that's no doubt a worry.

I imagine there is a middle ground though, right? It seems like there should be?

If the current assists are strong that they are almost always picked, it seems that there is a nerf somewhere in which they are only picked say half the time or most of the time but less often than they are now, right?
 
I don't really think bomber needs hard nerfs, same with other dp assists
 
Some people have appeared to misunderstand the point, yes DP assists are very strong defensively and they should be....they are defensive assists after all. The issue? is when people start using them offensively to say cover their mixups, cover their unsafe pressure attempts, cover their IADs, just throw them out and downback/jump in hold back hoping for a hit. It seems odd that such a strong defensive tool is so strong offensively. Don't get me wrong I will not say there are no ways to deal with these assists for example zoning to keep the hell away is an extremely strong option and there are some others but most of these are already after the opponent has successfully "won" the "neutral game" and applied pressure, your only option is to block the opponent going in on offense like this and then correctly block the follow up mixups/pressure or attempt PBGC.

It also does not work quite the same with other assist types, example if someone was to attempt this with say a lockdown assist like Squigly DnB I have moves that can beat this assist even if it is just a jab I should be able to recover and apply at very least the assist cooldown. If I chose to take the risk, and ofc the opponent can expect this and attempt counter-play.

I think that is one of the biggest deals where is the counter play against DP assists? I sometimes hear people say things like "PBGC the following blockstring" which isn't counter-playing the DP assist itself but the pressure the opponent was rewarded for simply calling it! "Jump and pushblock it" I actually use this one too but again I am still in blockstun and the opponent has again been rewarded by putting me in pressure.....again.

This may not be an issue btw, this could be an l2p issue as Mike has said in the past and maybe we will get better at dealing with it, but I think part of the reason that in say MvC2, DP assists were perhaps less scary because of how vulnerable they were to good calls *FEBREZE, ICE STORM!*, assists in SGs just do not take much damage from normal hit swings and the looming threat of a midscreen double snap is not there.

TLDR; DP assists perhaps too strong offensively for how strong defensively they are. People seem to pick DP assists and use them to create safe means of approaching and the best way for people counter to this is by using DP assists to create safe means of approaching.
 
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Spencer said:
Yeah that's no doubt a worry.

I imagine there is a middle ground though, right? It seems like there should be?

If the current assists are strong that they are almost always picked, it seems that there is a nerf somewhere in which they are only picked say half the time or most of the time but less often than they are now, right?
I already see plenty of people pick Hairball, though. I'd argue that it's one of the most generally underrated assists in the game. Multi-hit lockdown AND forward moving? That's *really* damn good.

Hell, the European Parasoul players mostly go LP Tear instead of Pillar (although I think they're insane for that one).

EDIT @ Woofly: Armored assists generally counter "call DP + approach" tactics. HP LnL and Big Brass both do wonders against someone spamming Updo/Pillar.
 
As someone who uses Hairball, it is good for lockdown and REALLY good for catching bad assist calls (it's gotten me a ton of Happy Birthdays), but unlike a lot of the more popular assists it covers such little vertical space. And considering how much people like to jump in this game... yeah. There's also Absolute Guard and Pushblock Guard Cancels that keep the point character's offense in check while Hairball is locking someone down.

It is a really good assist, though, don't get me wrong. I just don't see everyone switching to Hairball while these changes are being tested and even if they become final after some tweaks.
 
Let's get an MvC2 thing out of the way...Psylocke/CapCom/Cyke/Doom are the characters primarily picked for their assists that are not god tier on point. Doom is basically a DP assist as well as chip (he hits in like 2f or something, beats rushdown often, and eats projectiles). Of the good point chars, Cable has a DP assist and it is always chosen. Everyone else is a tossup, but you can bet if they had DP assists those would be always-used as well. DP assist is the way to go there too, it just so happens that the god tier point characters mostly don't have one. The fact remains that of the characters who are added to teams specifically as assists, they are all DPs. And CapCom is vulnerable for 2f before he hits, as well, which makes no difference for choosing him because the utility and damage is so high.
Though for the people that say "2f doesn't do anything", Fanatiq could stuff predictable CapCom calls pretty much 100% during his good period.

I still don't agree anything should be changed in SG, but we DO have the Beta.

Changing knockback removes much of the viability of "jump around call assist convert" while leaving invincibility and get-off-me intact and allowing combos from planned hits.
I don't know whether people* would prefer Bomber be lockdown or invincible, but removing the invincibility is easier so that's getting tried first.

* the people who have such opinions combined with "things should be changed"
 
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What if all reversal assists just didn't knock down and/or sent the defender farther than normal?

Which I guess is just me agreeing with what's in bold here.

Mike_Z said:
Changing knockback removes much of the viability of "jump around call assist convert" while leaving invincibility and get-off-me intact and allowing combos from planned hits.
 
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If they were just sent further away, it would just make characters that have fast dashes (Val) or far-range pickups (Squigly, Peacock) that much better over the rest of the cast.
 
@worldjem
Then an assist that was called a few frames out from being a reversal would be just as good as now?
The whole "what if X as a reversal didn't do a thing" bit doesn't really accomplish what you want unless reversals are stupid easy like...say...in SF4.

@Luweewu
Most chars can catch them, just not if you blocked something first, and especially not if you were jumping around.
 
Honestly I'm fine with where invincible assists are right now. Except maybe Hornet Bomber being good at doing everything but IMO every team game is going to have some kind of assist that's the best and have that character be picked primarly for their utility and I'm fine with Double being that character even though she's much stronger on Point than Dr.Doom has ever been.

That sort of 'utility character' archetype is pretty interesting to me and something that doesn't occur in games that don't have assists or DHCs.
 
Mike_Z said:
@worldjem
Then an assist that was called a few frames out from being a reversal would be just as good as now?
The whole "what if X as a reversal didn't do a thing" bit doesn't really accomplish what you want unless reversals are stupid easy like...say...in SF4.

That doesn't make sense.

I mean "assists that make good reversals" as in DP assists like Updo/Pillar/etc., not "assists when done as a reversal" as in the first possible frame when coming out of wakeup/stun.
 
Mike_Z said:
The simplest thing to try in the Beta would be just to have the DP assists people continue to complain about (Updo, Pillar, Bomber) be changed in ways that make them harder to combo off.

For example, make Updo and Pillar assists knock them very far back at a shallow angle, and either make Bomber only one hit if blocked+lower knockdown or not invincible, but not both.

._.

blandaid said:
Its been clear for a long time that the vulnerable window on assist startup needs to increase if there is to be any significant evolution. At just 2f stuffing an invincible assist in any context is a small miracle.

dekillsage said:
Though I wouldn't mind if hitting an assist locked them out for longer periods of time. Currently you can hit an assist but that doesn't mean anything unless you hit them with a sliding knockdown or something.

These.

I would prefer an experiment on longer assist lockouts for hitting the assist or longer startup (i.e., a few extra frames of vulnerability before move startup) to any experiments that just hit individual moves or characters and mess with specific teams and players.
 
Also, I hope this change can sit in the beta for a while and brew if it does end up being seriously considered. Plenty of people have voiced complaints about the game being change and rebalanced too often.
 
To be honest I have felt like the lockout was just slightly too short for successfully hitting an assist. But, the window isn't too short to be hit out of. The only problem I have with the short window is when I'm trying to hit my opponent, they block, I DEFINITELY HIT DURING THE TIME I WOULD MEATY THE ASSIST but game says no and they block and I don't meaty the assist and I get hit. I have no idea how it could be, or if it even should be fixed. I probably should just throw more.

I do however think assists aren't locked out for long enough after hitting them. Careless assist calls can and should be punished harder and the game just doesn't have the capacity to punish assists hard and safely in non-happy birthday situations. The closest thing I can think of is counter calling with H Brass since that takes off fairly huge chunks of assist lifebars, so with enough proper countercalls they're discouraged from using their assist. Maybe they could be locked out for longer depending on what you hit them with, or how much damage they take?

ps. Since people are actually getting proficient at baiting DP assists and capitalising on their unavailability, they shouldn't be nerfed to shit. I can consistently beat upback+updo at round start with run forward, Valentine c.LK c.LK to meaty it, call an assist to keep me safe, then capitalise on an assistless opponent. They can be beaten, but they are still omni-applicable and hit very consistently to the point of being the default offensive, defensive and neutral options which is why I suggested harsher scaling earlier.
 
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ClarenceMage said:
To be honest I have felt like the lockout was just slightly too short for successfully hitting an assist. But, the window isn't too short to be hit out of. The only problem I have with the short window is when I'm trying to hit my opponent, they block, I DEFINITELY HIT DURING THE TIME I WOULD MEATY THE ASSIST but game says no and they block and I don't meaty the assist and I get hit. I have no idea how it could be, or if it even should be fixed. I probably should just throw more.

I do however think assists aren't locked out for long enough after hitting them. Careless assist calls can and should be punished harder and the game just doesn't have the capacity to punish assists hard and safely in non-happy birthday situations. The closest thing I can think of is counter calling with H Brass since that takes off fairly huge chunks of assist lifebars, so with enough proper countercalls they're discouraged from using their assist. Maybe they could be locked out for longer depending on what you hit them with, or how much damage they take?

Multi-hit attacks. Also, if we're going to suggest increasing lock-out, I don't think the strength or type of attack should matter (makes it confusing).
 
View619 said:
Multi-hit attacks. Also, if we're going to suggest increasing lock-out, I don't think the strength or type of attack should matter (makes it confusing).

I have tried multi-hitting attacks, they do not work better than non-multi hitting attacks on blocking opponents. Blockstun still removes active frames and staggers each hit out, which makes hitting that 2 frame window greatly impractical. What happens is that for instance Val's j.MP, normally it would be a multi-hit normal that would stay active for a billion years, but once it's blocked or hits, the active frames are removed after each hit until the next hit comes up, so you just get one active frame per hit on the j.MP staggered out with at least 5 frames between. This does not make catching DP assists(on blocking opponents) easy in the slightest.
 
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Honestly, I've got no problem with there being good invincible assists. I just wish there were better ways to punish a whiffed call like Hailstorm in MvC2. It'd probably be busted in some way, but say Parasoul's bike super always summoned the 6(?) bikes. The delay between the two sets of shots makes Argus not great, SBO doesn't work super well as the point character can jump into it and block the hits, and everything else is unsafe unless you can DHC to something safe. Personally, I'd like to have ways punish assists slightly easier, but make the damage scaling on assists lower.
 
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Is there something wrong with pointing out things you find to be potential gameplay issues? I don't understand how if someone speaks up about things they feel hurt the feel of gameplay and flow it means they don't know how to play and/or are whiners? I thought the point of forums was to discuss ideas on how you feel about match ups, the game, characters and balance?

Anyway "DP assists are the strongest assist type but obviously you need to l2p" I deal with DP assists everyday but what about the people calling the DP assists? When do they have to l2p? When if ever we find the magical tech to make their calls a reasonable risk/reward offensive choice?

Every single time someone mashes assist macro while in block/hitstun and I am required to attempt a risky throw or a jump throw or cr.lk and if I guess wrong it completely reverses *heh* the flow of the match do people seriously not see what the problem is here? Omfg you are such a scrub you want the opponent to put as much effort into making choices as you are forced to.

For the record when someone mashes a super out of my attempt at pressure or my attempt at a reset I see it was my problem and that the opponent made a huge gamble because IF I choose to bait it they are in an extremely punishable situation. There is a risk and there is a reward. That is not the case with DP assists, the risk and reward is completely out of whack especially for such a brain dead easy option.

Jesus christ.

@Mike_Z You do not need to agree, you do not even need to change anything because the people who have an issue here still play your game because WE still enjoy it!!!! Also the people who do find it to be a deal breaker are LONG gone. But stop being such a pretentious piece of shit about it as if to imply there could ever be a problem is laughable, thanks.
 
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Woofly said:
I thought the point of forums was to discuss ideas on how you feel about match ups, the game, characters and balance?
Heh. If that were the case, Gameplay General wouldn't be dead until a thread like this was made every once and a while.
 
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I just got hit with 3 updo in one match and I didn't die for it.

I feel like a fraud.
 
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People who like the change: People who prefer not to use DP assists in their team order.
People who don't like the change: People that already use DP assists in their team order.

As long as nerfs to the game don't affect what I already do, I am happy with all of the changes that occur in the game. :^)

ps. nerf peacock i don't like playing against her
 
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ClarenceMage said:
People who like the change: People who prefer not to use DP assists in their team order.
People who don't like the change: People that already use DP assists in their team order.

As long as nerfs to the game don't affect what I already do, I am happy with all of the changes that occur in the game. :^)

I don't like it and I don't even use those characters.

Hell, I use one of the DP assists that didn't get nerfed.
 
ClarenceMage said:
People who like the change: People who prefer not to use DP assists in their team order.
People who don't like the change: People that already use DP assists in their team order.
I don't like the idea of changing these dp assists and I don't run any of the affected characters.

EDIT: I apparently don't know grammar
 
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We have green bounces and 1 hit hp updo for assist differences already between point and assist moves. Them just being different again doesn't bother me. Can't look at it in a match, but looking at it in training mode it doesn't look too weird. It would just be something slightly different to get used to.
 
Woofly said:
For the record when someone mashes a super out of my attempt at pressure or my attempt at a reset I see it was my problem and that the opponent made a huge gamble because IF I choose to bait it they are in an extremely punishable situation. There is a risk and there is a reward. That is not the case with DP assists, the risk and reward is completely out of whack especially for such a brain dead easy option.

The risk is if they are trying to block and mash assist macro and don't block correctly they can end up losing two characters for it, because if they get hit while the assist is on the way in the assist stops.
 
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Jason said:
The risk is if they are trying to block and mash assist macro and don't block correctly they can end up losing two characters for it, because if they get hit while the assist is on the way in the assist stops.

If someone jumps at you you block high and mash dp assist. If someone is on the ground you down back and mash dp assist. Only characters who have standing overheads are parasoul and squigly, both who have overheads that can kinda be reacted too(I can't do it. I know other people can). Other than that the only option is grab. The risk reward is always in your favor unless you're in the corner, where the risk reward is still pretty much in your favor cuz blocking isn't fucking hard.(I used the f word to emphasize how super srs I am)

Man whensssssss cerebella copter flight mode pls I need this
 
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Mike_Z said:
Though for the people that say "2f doesn't do anything", Fanatiq could stuff predictable CapCom calls pretty much 100% during his good period.

What moves did he use to achieve this?
 
dekillsage said:
If someone jumps at you you block high and mash dp assist. If someone is on the ground you down back and mash dp assist. Only characters who have standing overheads are parasoul and squigly, both who have overheads that can kinda be reacted too(I can't do it. I know other people can).

Everybody who doesn't have a grounded overhead has an instant air overhead of some kind or a command throw. Nobody in this game is lacking in ways to open people up.

And no, this doesn't only apply in the corner because you can do a LOT of damage to two characters with a happy birthday combo even if you can't double snap.
 
I'm really liking these changes so far, but maybe I'm just too bad at this game to have a reason to hate them.

Mike_Z said:
Though for the people that say "2f doesn't do anything", Fanatiq could stuff predictable CapCom calls pretty much 100% during his good period.
I don't know if this point is valid given the example of [what I assume is] a good/tournament player, especially during "his good period". I mean, I'm going to assume the majority of the playerbase aren't as good as this guy, so I still think "2f doesn't do anything" is a valid point.
 
Make Napalm Pillar a DP input when shes on point.
 
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Jason said:
I just got hit with 3 updo in one match and I didn't die for it.

I feel like a fraud.
As an addition to this statement

I just played Fortune/Filia. I landed 3 random updos in one match and didn't win for it.

I feel like I had to put in actual work.
 
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Didn't fanatiq run MSP? If so, I imagine he used a lot of jump fierce and hailstorms
 
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